Can't get my stroke straight. AARf

[Solartje]

Hi all, I have been checking my errors with many hours of vid's, and the main reason im inconsistant, is because i can't deliver my cue in a straight line.

I played snooker for around 6 years, and used a tipical snooker position with 4 contact points with the cue. (chin, chest, bridge and grip)

Ive started playing pool 4 years ago, and i wanted to play pool and not snooker, so i watched many hours of players, and i changed my position. I am a bit higher (chin 2-5 inches above cue), i dont use my chest as a guide anymore and i use a closed bridge. I have been training my straight stroke for over a year now and its STILL not working.

I used the bottle drill, i used the lagshot with the measle ball to see if i put unintentional english, i used a self made cheap-mans-copy of the straight stroke trainer (board with 4 things sticking out where you place your cue in),
but its still not straight. When concentrating on it, i can deliver it perfectly straight, but as soon as i'm in a game, i lose it. Either i concentrate on the straight stroke, but i miss the shot-position, or I dont concentrate and im not stroking straight.

I'm always puting up 0.5/1 tip of english to the left side. My back arm swings outside at the end of my stroke. Ive thought it over, and it looks like (one ) of the problems is, that when my griphand is in finish position at the shoulder, and my stroke doesnt come to a natural rest there, but is forced to stop because my griphand can't go trough my shoulder, the backarm swings sideways to stop the movement. (i hope this is clear :s )

slow shots, griphand stops naturaly till the shoulder.
hard shots, griphand penduls till the shoulder, and once it at maximum closeness to the shoulder, the arm bends out untill the stroke is totally finished.

as the bottle drill, lagdrill with striped ball or measle ball, is always played at slow speed, so i dont have as much problems as where in a match i often need to play shots harder then a lagshot.

I have tried so many different grips, and even if some seem to be better then all, if the stroke aint straight, a good grip will also result in non center hits, so its harder to judge wich is best. I'm using a VERY lose grip at the moment, i don't close my griphand at the end of the stroke, but i leave it loose.

I'm getting very frustrated, because i master many advanced things, but I can't master a straight stroke. Its been 15 months now, and its still not there... im getting frustrated...

Sometimes i'm thinking of going back to my snooker stance, and use my chest to garantee !! that my cue will go straight, but I want to play pool like a poolplayer, and there are SO many pro's who dont use there chest and deliver it perfectly straight, i refuse to admit that a chest is needed as a guide.

:(

The weird thing is, on many video's the stroke looks perfect (grip, eye, cue, bridge in one perfect line, but i just know im not stroking straight.

[JoseV]

Maybe its just a mental thing.

[Cameron Smith]

Hi all, I have been checking my errors with many hours of vid's, and the main reason im inconsistant, is because i can't deliver my cue in a straight line.

I played snooker for around 6 years, and used a tipical snooker position with 4 contact points with the cue. (chin, chest, bridge and grip)

Ive started playing pool 4 years ago, and i wanted to play pool and not snooker, so i watched many hours of players, and i changed my position. I am a bit higher (chin 2-5 inches above cue), i dont use my chest as a guide anymore and i use a closed bridge. I have been training my straight stroke for over a year now and its STILL not working.

I used the bottle drill, i used the lagshot with the measle ball to see if i put unintentional english, i used a self made cheap-mans-copy of the straight stroke trainer (board with 4 things sticking out where you place your cue in),
but its still not straight. When concentrating on it, i can deliver it perfectly straight, but as soon as i'm in a game, i lose it. Either i concentrate on the straight stroke, but i miss the shot-position, or I dont concentrate and im not stroking straight.

I'm always puting up 0.5/1 tip of english to the left side. My back arm swings outside at the end of my stroke. Ive thought it over, and it looks like (one ) of the problems is, that when my griphand is in finish position at the shoulder, and my stroke doesnt come to a natural rest there, but is forced to stop because my griphand can't go trough my shoulder, the backarm swings sideways to stop the movement. (i hope this is clear :s )

slow shots, griphand stops naturaly till the shoulder.
hard shots, griphand penduls till the shoulder, and once it at maximum closeness to the shoulder, the arm bends out untill the stroke is totally finished.

as the bottle drill, lagdrill with striped ball or measle ball, is always played at slow speed, so i dont have as much problems as where in a match i often need to play shots harder then a lagshot.

I have tried so many different grips, and even if some seem to be better then all, if the stroke aint straight, a good grip will also result in non center hits, so its harder to judge wich is best. I'm using a VERY lose grip at the moment, i don't close my griphand at the end of the stroke, but i leave it loose.

I'm getting very frustrated, because i master many advanced things, but I can't master a straight stroke. Its been 15 months now, and its still not there... im getting frustrated...

Sometimes i'm thinking of going back to my snooker stance, and use my chest to garantee !! that my cue will go straight, but I want to play pool like a poolplayer, and there are SO many pro's who dont use there chest and deliver it perfectly straight, i refuse to admit that a chest is needed as a guide.

:(

The weird thing is, on many video's the stroke looks perfect (grip, eye, cue, bridge in one perfect line, but i just know im not stroking straight.

Why not go back to snooker fundamentals? If your stroke is perfect when you play a certain way, why not play that way?

Mark Gray, Daryl Peach and Tony Drago seem to do alright.

[Neil]

I read your post several times, and I'm still not clear on something. See if I have this right- On the softer shots, you stay straight. On the harder shots you are missing the shot or not hitting the cue ball where intended and your stroke swings out a little.

Assuming I am right int the above statement. Your stroke is going off straight way before the finish of it. It is going off before you even strike the cb. If it wasn't, you would still be hitting the cb where you want to.

I had a similar problem, and I found to faults to correct. 1. I was thinking about my stroke too much. I wasn't letting my subconscious shoot the shot, but my conscious mind was trying to stay straight. Me constantly telling myself not to go crooked automatically made me go crooked. Once I just told myself to go straight, and then not worry about it, helped tremendously. 2. My stance had shifted slightly, moving my back foot just one inch made a big difference. And, I'll add a 3. I started taking a few fast warmup strokes just to loosen up and groove my stroke. Then, once I knew it was right, I would slow down the warmup strokes for the rest of my routine.

[Roger Long]

If you can deliver your best and most consistent stroke while standing on one foot and shooting behind your back, then that is probably the way you should do it. I mean, who cares how you get there as long as you get there?

I do understand your dilemma, however, as I have struggled with the same problem myself. Photographs and videos have shown that my alignment mechanics are a little off; I have a slight angle to the "line-of-aim" in my back arm. As an instructor I have always wanted my mechanics to be picture perfect so my students couldn't say "Look, see, you're not doing it right, either!" But every time I get my mechanics to looking perfect, the stroke doesn't come through as straight. That means that while I'm coming through my stroke, my subconscious mind directs my hand and arm back along the old habitual path that years of practice have ingrained. And it will be a crooked path because the hand and arm didn't start out in the old habitual places. So, I have now gone back to concentrating on a straight stroke, rather than picture perfect mechanics. And I tell those critical students, "Try it the 'right' way first, and if it doesn't work for you, then find an ugly style that will." :)

Looks are not as important as results.

Roger

[Solartje]

thanks for the reply's.

Cameron. I don't know why... I wanted to learn something different i guess. I knew how to play snooker, but i didnt knew how to play pool.
i was bored of snooker, i wanted to play, like a poolplayer. Using there bridgehand, there stance, there techniques, there aiming techniques. I wanted to play pool on a pooltable, and not snooker on a pooltable. Ofcourse darren, tony and many more are world class, but I prefere a Charlie briant break, a buddy hall position and a earl's stroke, over a ronnie stroke, a hendry position etc... Going back to snooker fundamentels, would be the easy path and not why i started playing pool.

Neil: i think you understand it correct, and as i'm putting english i must be off before contact. You do have a point. SO it might not be the end of the stroke. But when i analyse video's, it really is only on the last part of the stroke.

Neil :) you are right when you say looks are not important. When i get beaten 6-0 by someone with a croocked stroke, trust me last thing i'm thinking about is his stroke :D But its more a mental choice, I want to learn to play like that. (i just got frustrated this weekend, that after a year and a half, the bad habit is back and im not cueing straight till the very last second.


i'll post some pictures taken from video's, and maybe post a short 3sec video where you see the chicken wing moving outwards.

[Solartje]

here the picture on how it looks before the stroke.

and a small animated give with whats going wrong. This is the problem exagerated, as i was using WARP speed to open the pack :), but it shows nicely what the problem is. When my griphand is coming closer and closer to the chest at the end of the strokes, it moves outwards, moving my tip inwards (to the left) I had this problem also during snooker, as my grip was hitting my chest on every stroke. I was hoping a higher stand would solve the problem, but it looks like my arm still does the outwards movement. I know what the problem is, but it just wont go away. thought that a year would be enough to remove this thing out of my stroke, but it isnt. I guess im doing the wrong exersises or not doing them correct or long enough.
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1181/43817500.gif

When my stroke is finished, my bridgehand usually is at around 15inch from the tip, so i think the folow trough is not the problem (even though it helps alot, but not enough)

Sometimes i really wonder how i can run a rack or two with this stroke O-o

PS (i just saw that im very low in this video :) i was probably trying to mix snooker and pool fundamentels up and see what the result would be)

[Dead Crab]

OK, I'm not qualified to instruct, but I recently diagnosed myself with a major chicken wing problem, and here are my thoughts:

1. I have looked at many pictures of top players, and they all have their elbow either in the vertical plane thru the cue, or on the body side of this plane. I checked my stroke in the mirror and had a pronounced chicken wing to the outside of the vertical cue plane (worse than yours is).

2. I initially attempted to cure this by concentrating on pulling my elbow in. This did help somewhat, but mostly made me sore, and degraded the longer I played.

3. The root cause was my grip, not my elbow. Here is how I learned to get my elbow in-line with the cue:
Set up in front of a mirror, or head-on into a video camera.
With your back hand, place your thumb along the top surface of the cue's long axis (pointing down the cue) and grip the cue firmly, keeping your wrist straight as you squeeze the cue. Watch what happens to your elbow. If you are like me, this firm and straightly aligned gripping of the cue pulls the elbow right in-line with the cue.
Obviously you don't want a death grip on the cue when you shoot, so once you have your elbow "set" by this firm grip, let your grip thumb fall to the side, and relax your hand a bit while taking care to leave your elbow and wrist in the same position. I have found that once I "set" my elbow like this, it tends to stay put.

This helped me a lot with elbow position. It may or may not help you. In any case, it is possible that your chicken wing is really a grip problem.

[Neil]

I think I see your problem. Just as you start your stroke with power, you start using your shoulder muscles. You are basically keeping your elbow up, but by tightening your shoulder muscles, it drops your shoulder a little by turning it. As soon as you have that little turn in your shoulder, your stroke can not go straight.

Even on the power shots, all you need is from the elbow down. That alone will give you all the power you need on a pool table. If you are trying to knock someone out, THEN use your shoulder too.

Wherever you are right now, just put your right arm in a stroke position, and tighten up your shoulder muscles a little. You will instantly see what I am saying.

I wouldn't have caught that without the video.

Try starting out slow on the stroke, and increase speed according to the need of the shot at hand. This starts you on the right plane.

[Foster62]

You just told my story for the past year. Every time I think I have solved the problem it comes back like a bad dream and I change something else and so on so on.... About two weeks ago I called my uncle that I have a strained relation with, but he did teach my to play.So I called him and told him my problem, it was either that or quit playing again. He told me that most good players have there thumb pointed down when they shoot, mine was not, the way to point the thumb down is to raise the shoulder, not roll the wrist. This brings the shoulder into line with the shot. So far it has been
working like a charm. Now my stroke even feels strait.

Good luck

[Jason Robichaud]

It looks like your back hand is a foot or so from you hip. Your feet look to be square to shot like snooker but you body is leaning to the right of your feet (looking down your shaft at shot). So, feet pointing on line and shoulders pointing at 3 oclock... try 1 oclock if that makes sense. I think if you square your shoulders to the shot, move body to left, this will move that hand closer to hip and along that natural path it is trying to take. It wants to travel along the body. I think it is a body alignment issue! Have and views from the back to confirm?

Your head should be between your feet or , at most, over right leg not past.

[Gerald]

For an ex snooker player you seem to drop your elbow quite a bit. Scott Lee and Randy G, who both post here frequently and are BCA qualified instructors, have an excellent set of 2 DVD's that teach the fundamentals of a straight and repeatable stroke along with some great kicking fundamentals. There is nothing wrong in using a snooker stance if it seems to give you more comfort and better alignment.

[Solartje]

For an ex snooker player you seem to drop your elbow quite a bit. Scott Lee and Randy G, who both post here frequently and are BCA qualified instructors, have an excellent set of 2 DVD's that teach the fundamentals of a straight and repeatable stroke along with some great kicking fundamentals. There is nothing wrong in using a snooker stance if it seems to give you more comfort and better alignment.

Yes, i never did it in snooker, but it helps me on certain shots in pool (topspin) or when I play a shot hard so it wont bang me in the chest/shoulder


Dead crab, neil, foster, jason:

MANY thanks for the tips. I was hoping to get some concrete things I can try, and all gave me something to check out.
Its 00:21 am, so you might have to wait till friday before i can give some feedback on the tips, but I can't wait to hit the blue again. :
Im glad i'm on AZB :) this is the reason why.


Edit: i tried some strokes on the table, and you guys are greath. The main sorce of the problem came from the shoulder tightening right before the shot. I didnt had this thing in snooker, as the lighter balls didnt need that much power and its something that creaped in.
The tip with the tumb up the cue feels weird in the beginning, but i can understand how you can controle a role or sidemovement with this. Greath tips.

At first i asked myself: WHY did I put up this video , but now im thinking: why didnt i post this before !!!! took me a year with almost no results, and it could be solved in a matter of weeks thanks to your posts.

[Neil]

Glad I could help!

[SpiderWebComm]

It's your upper-arm. Have someone hold your upper-arm (above your elbow) when you stroke. A good move is to have them wrap a belt around it and hold it up and shoot a bunch of shots. When your upper-arm is on a plane and doesn't twist, it's shocking to see how straight you stroke.

I've been working on this myself as I have a similar problem, although my movement is nowhere near as bad as yours.

I have to give credit to Tom Simpson for that move... it's quite ingenious, I think.

[lee brett]

ur wrist is breaking on the shot so ur are hitting across the ball

[Solartje]

im going to do some mare video taping this weekend, from other directions, different pot speed, and see if i can find more clue's. might mix them together, play then in slow motion and post them on youtube, so you can get a better vision of the problem.

Spiderwebbcom:
this stroke was horrible. I didt look for the worst stroke i could find though :o. I asure your, usually its not that bad and i can run a rack or two without problem, but when i DO miss, it is because of this problem.

I remember the Oyster using some kind of device that was fixed to the ceiling above his pooltable. That is probably the same thing with your idea.

At the moment i feel that my griphand and my shoulder tightening before the shot are the main cause, but i will try out EVERY single advice that has been given :)

Ps I once had a friend who told me, he locked his shoulder in place to prevent side movement. Have you heared of it, and how do you lock a shoulder in place when its in a straight line? I feel if i tighten up the arm, it automaticaly moves into a straight line, but how do i luck it up?

[Neil]

Ps I once had a friend who told me, he locked his shoulder in place to prevent side movement. Have you heared of it, and how do you lock a shoulder in place when its in a straight line? I feel if i tighten up the arm, it automaticaly moves into a straight line, but how do i luck it up?


I have tried that too. I would recommend that you don't bother with it. What it is, basically, is that once you bend down, you tighten your shoulder muscles on purpose, and then raise your shoulder to 'lock' it. THEN, from that position, you make sure your forearm will swing on the right plane by moving your elbow in or out.

The problem with this, is that it is just a quick fix. It does work. But, it is not a good long-term cure. By purposely having a muscle as big as the shoulder muscle tightened up, you will tire quicker, and that shoulder can get pretty sore until it builds up enough to be used to it.

IMHO, you will be much better off learning to not tighten your shoulder. Tightening it is usually a cause of thinking wrongly that you need a lot of power on a power shot, such as a long draw shot. You don't need power as much as you need speed and an accurate stroke. Very seldom do you need to draw more than a table length, and that can easily be achieved stroking just with the forearm moving. The only muscle needed is the bicep.

[Eruditass]

very interesting, i have had similar problems (shoulder twist on power shots and wrist twisting when tense). I am a bit confused with the thumb thing you guys are saying. Someone said to point it down the cue (on top of the cue down the shot line?) and someone said to point it down.

My stroke is always fixed when I mentally remind myself to grip very lightly and open my grip hand on the back stroke, which makes me not twist my wrist when I stroke more firm. I want to try the thumb thing too. I tighten my shoulder to prevent the chicken wing flap but it does tire me out more and hopefully I can learn to not do it without tightening.

With my break shot, I would always fail to hit it square but I would be trying to knock someone out. I took power off my break, and now I hit it dead square and get 500% more action because of it.

I have noticed that good players seem to have the reverse chicken wing if anything, with elbow drop. I have tried to drop my elbow straight down instead of rotating the shoulder but it feels very odd.

[Solartje]

I did like 100 strokes, and analysed them all frame by frame. Sometimes i my arm doesnt move at all (rarely, only on very slow played shots), sometimes my upperarm moves left to right to left to right, but it seems more from the tip/cb impact and the cue rebouncing of the cb.

On the first video i posted some post ago, i the ouside chicken wing at the end, is purely from my griphand hitting my chest and rebouncing outwards, thats what made the first video SO much worse, then every other stroke i taped. It was mainly because of the exagerated power (to increase my errors) my grip rebouncing from my chest. The first initial inside chicken wing is my problem, and ive tried to capture it as good as i could.

result:

On the stroke in this video, it is neither of cuerebound or the grip rebounding from the chest. Its a arm-crumble move right at the begining of the endstroke, with a griptwist as the actore directing the other moves (?) This is the main problem that i want to solve. I do use a very light grip (tumb, index and middle), but its not prefenting the weird movement i do.

I hope this video will make it cleared what my problem is, and easyer to find a solution

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/4518/azb3.gif


In this video, im not doing it... no idea why.
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/5584/azb6bis.gif


Regarding the tips: When im down on the shot, and tighten my shouldermuscle like it has been asked, my upperarm moves inwards like on the video, so i guess
this is what im doing wrong. Is there a good trick to not tighten this muscle?

[Neil]

Looks to me like you have your elbow too close to your body. Your elbow, shoulder, and cue should all be in a straight line. Your elbow is inside that line, causing your stroke to veer off. I think instinctively you are realizing that and steering your cue to get it back on line.

I think that if you move your elbow out about an inch or so, you will have a straighter stroke. This can be accomplished by just moving your elbow out, or by adjusting your back leg a little to make it feel more natural.

[Solartje]

Edit:

After looking more at the video's it seemed like my grip did something, that set up a whole chain of reactions. So i have been watching my grip during strokes, and i found something i never saw before , and that could be the initial problem.

When doing warmup strokes, my tip doesnt go as far as in a normal stroke, and my cue (held by 3 fingers) doesnt touch the back (palm) of my hand. But when stroking trough the ball it touches my palm (or the thick part under my thumb). The harder i stroke, the harder it pushes upwards against my palm. As my cue touches my palm on the left side and goes up, it pushes my hand into a clockwise rotation around the cue, wich itself might be the cause for the arm movement (maybe in combination with tightened shoulder muscle?)

I hope this video makes it clear.(ps this is exagerated :D not taken from a stroke).

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3659/17913255.gif

Johhny: Thanks for saving me a year of muscle tightening :D I wont try that then.

[Solartje]

Looks to me like you have your elbow too close to your body. Your elbow, shoulder, and cue should all be in a straight line. Your elbow is inside that line, causing your stroke to veer off. I think instinctively you are realizing that and steering your cue to get it back on line.

I think that if you move your elbow out about an inch or so, you will have a straighter stroke. This can be accomplished by just moving your elbow out, or by adjusting your back leg a little to make it feel more natural.


Neil, are you sure about it? or are you talking about the final stroke?
Because in the warmup strokes, everything is perfectly in line.
(The line is not vertical because the camera was not perfectly horizontal, but im pritty sure cb, tip, dominant eye, shoulder, elbow, grip are all in one plane.

(might be an optical illusion due to the image, but if you compare the stroke plane with the horizontal rails of the diamond, they are 90°)


EDIT: i moved my shoulder an inch further and it looks like it is already improving the straightness in soft strokes. On harder strokes with longer folow trough, the cue hitting palm thing is still bothering me.

(sorry ive im over analysing, but i just want to resolve this problem once and for all.)

[Neil]

Yes, it does look like the camera angle threw me off on that one. Try this, and see if it helps you- Get down in your stance with no cue. Then, swing your arm like a pendulum without moving your elbow at all. Look back and see what your forearm is doing. Is it straight? Or is it going off to one side?

Shift around until you are comfortable, and it goes straight. Then, start moving your arm faster. That equates to a power stroke. It should stay the same.

Now, put a cue in your hand and try it. There should be no difference. All it takes is a small change in the shoulder, elbow, or feet to get off line. Once off line, you mentally have to do many other things to stay on line. Some are great at doing that, some of us have to have a perfect or near perfect stroke or we miss.

As far as the cue touching the palm- it shouldn't until near the end of the stroke when holding it that lightly. Mine doesn't either. But, mine doesn't throw the cue off line when it touches. I'm not sure on why yours does, but it is well after the cb has left the tip, so it should not be affecting the outcome of the shot at all.

[Jason Robichaud]

Neil, are you sure about it? or are you talking about the final stroke?
Because in the warmup strokes, everything is perfectly in line.
(The line is not vertical because the camera was not perfectly horizontal, but im pritty sure cb, tip, dominant eye, shoulder, elbow, grip are all in one plane.

(might be an optical illusion due to the image, but if you compare the stroke plane with the horizontal rails of the diamond, they are 90°)


EDIT: i moved my shoulder an inch further and it looks like it is already improving the straightness in soft strokes. On harder strokes with longer folow trough, the cue hitting palm thing is still bothering me.

(sorry ive im over analysing, but i just want to resolve this problem once and for all.)


I guessed right... see how far your hand is from your hip. I posted that this will cause what you are doing with your arm. Your arm in going into your body, a natural path, during the stroke. You need to get that right leg on your shot, rather than arch your back rotate your body.

How to: Step right leg on shot then put left leg a little ahead of right (shoulder width apart). Now before you get down with your body facing straight, rotate your body to the right until your right nipple is lined with your right knee (about 30-45 degrees). Now get down on shot. This will keep that back hand closer to body and give you a starting position. Move around until you are comfortable. When you stroke, your arm will stay next to body where it appears that is wants to go. Give this a quick try.

[Dead Crab]

++++++++++++
very interesting, i have had similar problems (shoulder twist on power shots and wrist twisting when tense). I am a bit confused with the thumb thing you guys are saying. Someone said to point it down the cue (on top of the cue down the shot line?) and someone said to point it down.
+++++++++++++++++

If you place your thumb on top of the cue, directed along it's top, it will move your wrist into the desired neutral position. Once this is established, I would suggest dropping the thumb so that it points downward. You should be able to maintain the neutral wrist position, and this will help keep your elbow in line.

[Jason Robichaud]

they must mean down at the floor. I can't see them saying down cue - on top of cue.

[Eruditass]

heh I tried playing with it on top of the cue, it was awful feeling!

according to this test, my wrist is already neutral. However, when I am out of stroke and stroke very hard, sometimes I let my wrist twist causing horrible accuracy. Thumb on top of the cue actually prevented it but messed up all other stuff!

[mfinkelstein3]

Here are some things to look at. Are you punching or tightening up your grip hand when you go in to the cue ball? Sounds to me like that is what you are doing. On the softer shots, you don't do this and go through straight. On the harder ones, you are most likely punching or tightening up. That causes all sorts of errors.

My suggestion is to watch some clips of Efren or Johnny Archer to see how they go through smoothly.

Try this to get the hang of this loose feeling. Swing at a shot and try to have the cue stick slide forward a little at the end of the shot. You can't do this if you are tightening up.

Good luck and let me know how it works.

Mark//BCA Advanced Instructor

[SpiderWebComm]

I think your upper arm breaks down, which forces your hand out, which makes your wrist turn, which makes your strike across the ball, which makes you miss.

You can either work on fixing the root cause, or experiment with throwing your cue completely through the CB or allowing it to slide in your hand. Once you release the cue, your arm/mechanics are no longer relevant.

Pick a spot on the CB you want to hit and release the cue to that point. I do this often on longer shots.

[lee brett]

the shoulder has nothing to do with any shot and should move as little as possible, throwing ur shoulder into the shot u will break ur wrist on the shot and the wrist is a flexible joint, so ur arm will be going everywhere, unintentional side hitting across the ball etc...

i coach people to use the elbow to drive the cue through, dropping the elbow creaters more control and accuracy as its a stiff joint and goes 1 way only,

i have had bca instructors, giving me grief saying its wrong to drop the elbow, most of the best players in the world do this, so there doing something wrong :D.

its the best coaching you will get learning how to do this with controlling it, i worked with del hill who is world snooker head coach and taught ronnie o sullivan for 8 years to do this, he is the best player in the world, daryl peach went to del and then won the world title.

the world snooker coaching manual has been ripped up and a new manual being put in place to teach the elbow drop, the pool world needs to do the same thing and learn from this every sport advances over the years like golf has pool can also do this with learning these techniques are not flaws but actually the way to go and to embrace the elbow drop as the way to play the game..

my flak jacket is now on as i wait for the abuse lol....

[Solartje]

thanks for the extra info and tips.

I've had some time this weekend to test out the different things.

- thumb above cue. (it really helps to check if your grip is correct.) Hasn't helped me personally much though, but a GREATH tip. if i feel that i'm missing balls, i will for sure use it to check my grip

- shoulder wider. I have tried it, and ofcourse it did feel unnaturaly, but it seems to help a little.

- feet. Even if I thought that this would be the tip that would be of no use, i was wrong. Of all that has been said, (in the small amount of testing i had), this seemed to have cured 80% of the problem. It troubles me that i have to think about my feet before every shot again :D but thats the way it is. No other way around. This didnt resolve the elbow movement THAT much, but it SURELY has increased my potting %, (or i just had a GREATH day of pool). MY shoulders are now straighter facing the shot. It also seems to have changed my griphand. Where before i could only use a lose wrist, i can now use a tighter grip without messing up my stroke. Im not saying I will use a tighter grip :) but if both choices now give a straight stroke, it means it must be doing something right.

- holding my cue more level, and moving my head 4" above the cue, instead of RIGHT on the cue, gives me more space for my grip hand to move before it hits any body part. I noticed that in excactly the same position and the tip contacting the CB at the same time, if i move my head abit higher the angle in between my lower and upperarm gets bigger, and makes me folow trough more before the stroke is completed.


about the tips:
- i know exactly why you are refering to efren and busta. There lose wrist on powerstrokes are :eek:. I have tried to copy it, but I havent been able to do so, so far. Its HARD. I will give it another try, after getting the arm movement completly out of my game.

lee: I won't change my elbow drop. it feels better to me, and i dont think it influences my problem.


spiderweb: i'll give the throw stroke a try. What exactly do you mean by: my upper arm is breaking down? could you be more specific?

neil: greath idea about the no cue stroke. If i get what you are saying, i need to find a body position, where the no cue pendulum will naturally be in the same line of the shot. greath !!! more testing asap. The palm thing, might be after the contact... not sure. I ll have to check the video's from another angle to see what it does.


ps i always learned to position my body like buddy hall said.

Place the cue level in you right hand, arm stretched, next to you hip, pointing into the shot. Then move you left foot forward, and twist your right foot 30-40° outwards. Maybe my foot are in the right place, but my upperbody is twisted to the right to much, so that my head is not in between my feet anymore....

I REALLY would like to thank everyone so far. Im getting Many directions for my cure. If one will cure it, i will own you one. I will try to find some time to make some new video's and post some results. Hope you will still be here to finetune it even more. I have no option to get to an instructor in my country, so i guess you guys are all i have to help me get better. No matter how stupid i look in my video :D

[Solartje]

ok guys :)

I tried all the different things you added tonight.

a/ The tip that really helped was potting some balls and letting the cue slip trough my hand. like it has been said, it was impossible to stear the stroke doing this.

b/I noticed some slight body movement (my head moved up in the final stroke) so i removed that.

c/The grip twist is happening after the contact. I taped it from several sides, and it doesnt influence the shot in any way. Even if its not as beautiful as i wished.

D/ I'm not using my shoulder in anyway. Only the elbow drop, but its just natural folow of the stroke, not my muscles tightening up to move my shoulder down.

I still do need to move it 1 inch more outwards , but that will take time before i do it naturally. All the rest didnt take more then 15min to master.
I taped from different directions, and it is straightened out and the cue is as level as possible. Any lower and it hits the rail
Me who tought it would take another year, just took me 2 days with you, and 2 hours on the table. maybe this was again another lucky night, but i dont think so: to give an example. I did 50/50 on a table lenght straight in shots 1 ball from the side rail, and i made a 2pack on the first 2 racks of 9b i played.

I did check some older videos of long trainingsessions, and it seems i did straighten up my arm naturally after some time (even if it never was perfect straight, it became straighter, the longer i played). Now it is straight from ball 1, and i'm already seeing the differences.

in short: HUGE thanks, and im SO glad this was a quick fix.
ps here a short video of how it looks from the side. Looks good to me right? Im still hitting my chest at the end but its after cb contact. (Just for looks sake, any tip on how to avoid the chest/shoulder hit?

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4261/sideazb2.gif

[Eruditass]

nothing is wrong with hitting the chest, it can be a great reference for a finish position. you can try standing up a little more or moving your grip hand back (90 degrees to the cue at contact point).

what did you adjust with your feet? i recently found problems with my alignment that I am trying to work on as well.

[Solartje]

i make sure my head is in between my 2 feet. Its not in the middle, as that makes me feel uncomfortable after some time. its more 70% to right (if 50% is center between feet). It forces your body to be more square vs the table. I just place my feet 1 feet more to the right then usual, and try to turn my body as square as possible or i stand in front of the line of shot, place my right feet, right of that line, and the left feet where i feel comfortable.

I havent tried this in a 10h+ training yet to see if i feel comfortable with it, but i will try it out soon and see if i can keep it.
It helped my straight in pots ALOT, but it didnt do as much for the bad stroke as the cue-slippin'-trough-your-fingers-tip.


about the chest hitting, i watched some players (efren for example) and he raises on the last stroke, and drops his elbow even more then me, so he has naturally more place to folow trough without hitting the chest. like i said, its pure a aestetic thing :) its not puting any side at all.

ps ive been watching higgins his stroke on eurosport for a week now.... And its so perfect , its heavenly.

ps is there still some things to change to my stroke, or is it good to go ?
need more vids from other angles?

[Solartje]

last update, as i feel i ow you at least some updates.

I have been potting GREATh at home, but still needed a good test. So today there was a houstournament. Perfect to test out the new stroke in tournament. 9-ball, race to 6. First match, i get behind very quick 4-0 to a guy who is alot better then me, but i just had some bad run of the balls. nothing on the break and snookered when opponent missed. Well i run 6 frames and won 4-6. I made some UNbelievable pots, its amazing !! best part of all, besides feeling more confident wich is also good, my positional play is alot better. I thought i had to train that after the stroke, but it is obvious now i missed alot of positions due to the bad stroke. So now i got a stroke and potting ability i could only dream off, AND my positional play is better AND i feel confident.

I want to give something back to all who helped me, because i feel bad to get this free advise. I went from a B to a A level player in a matter of 2 weeks . I always thought geting from B to A would take at LEAST a year or 2-3. I still can't believe it. At home im not even playing 9ball anymore, but im throwing 11 or 12 balls on the table to have any chalenge. It just feels like i have always know how to play, but the bad stroke runed it all. its just all coming together. Either i'm in the zone for one week now, or i just made the biggest jumpt in playing level since i started 10years ago.

To put in numbers how better the results are. If i was 100% before the help, i'm now at 200% at least. Ive only been able to beat the 7ball ghost in a race to 10, but i'm sure i can beat the 9ball ghost in a race to 10 now. Thats how greath the improvement is.

Today was the best day of pool in my life. I don't think i ever enjoyed playing as much as today. Thanks for this AZB !!!! you made me a VERY happy man. sudenly the game became SO much easier and its a real pleasure to be clearing one rack after the other, and feel like any ball is a hanger. Even if i do still miss some ocasional positions, knowing that your potting ability will get you back in controle of the table is a bless.

I'm sorry for all the superlatives (sp?) or if this sound exagerated, but its pure hapyness speaking.

Sunday i have the finals of the national championship, and one week later the final of the state championship, and i can't wait to let the new stroke out :D

[Neil]

I agree with JohnnyZ86, there is nothing wrong with your hand hitting your chest after the stroke is done. That is called the finish position. I also agree with him that your arm should be at 90 degrees with the tip at the cb. To do that, just shift your body forward, keeping your feet in the same place. Just move your butt forward.

When I get off a little, that is usually the problem, I have my weight too far back, and then I am gripping the cue too far forward.

It made my day that we all could help you so much. This is what AZB is supposed to be about, IMHO. It gets old reading about what color cloth people should use, or what tip, or what cue to buy, ect.

Now, go out there and win that title!

[Eruditass]

nice job, good luck at the championships! You deserved the advice with your desire to improve and taking very nice videos.

I am jealous of your improvement, I have a lot of kinks to work out in my stroke still. Usually I start off near great but after an hour or so everything just degenerates. I'm going to start taking my video camera to the pool hall every time to see exactly what happens.

[lee brett]

I agree with JohnnyZ86, there is nothing wrong with your hand hitting your chest after the stroke is done. That is called the finish position. I also agree with him that your arm should be at 90 degrees with the tip at the cb. To do that, just shift your body forward, keeping your feet in the same place. Just move your butt forward.

When I get off a little, that is usually the problem, I have my weight too far back, and then I am gripping the cue too far forward.

It made my day that we all could help you so much. This is what AZB is supposed to be about, IMHO. It gets old reading about what color cloth people should use, or what tip, or what cue to buy, ect.

Now, go out there and win that title!

neil when your holding your cue to far forward its called your cueing inside which means you will hit the ball early, as for your weight to far back, you need to have a set up as to the way you walk into a shot so that your standing in the correct position every time on each shot, hope this helps you

[Solartje]

nice job, good luck at the championships! You deserved the advice with your desire to improve and taking very nice videos.

I am jealous of your improvement, I have a lot of kinks to work out in my stroke still. Usually I start off near great but after an hour or so everything just degenerates. I'm going to start taking my video camera to the pool hall every time to see exactly what happens.


thx johnnyz86 for the nice words. It does take balls to post a BAD stroke.

About taking the camera with you, i greathly advice it. after the advice, i worked on the stroke daily and taped it daily and then took an hour to analyse the video's. BAd habbits are hard to lose, and you want to be sure that if you are not slipping back into bad habbits and that you notice it as quick as possible and thats where the camera is your best friend. In your case, you could play for an hour, tape it, then check the last minut and see what you are doing wrong, change it, play for another hour, check video etc... untill the you are doing longer sessions with a good stroke. its just muscle memory. you just need to reherse as often as the stroke needs to, to become natural.

In the tournament, it took me 1 match where i consiously had to think about the tips that where posted before bending down, but after one match ,the arm became loose and i never thought about it again till the day after.

I really hope to win the state championship though :p Our team won it 2 years ago, but i wasnt in the final team. I'm the weak link :D. If we win it this year, as we are moving to another houseclub, the team will give me the trophy for all the hard work I did. Semi's should be easy. We beat both clubs 3 out of 3, but in the finals, my match will probably be the decider. I lost 6-0 last meating wich made me post this thread... That beating woke me up.
We are the underdog for the finals, but thats the spot i prefere :D They also have no idea about my progress so everything is in my advantage to win the mental battle. I'm READY for a rematch and my first trophy after 4 years of pool.



about holding cue a little forward. It just feels better to me. if you hit cb at 90° the cue is going horizontal. If you hold the cue early, you hit the cb when the tip is still going up. I don't know, it just feels like the very slightly upwards movement gives me a better ball contact. I could change it, but im not fixing whats not broken.

[Solartje]

update like promised.

First task completed. Had the qualification tournament for the finals of the Belgium National 8-ball Championship. Ive only managed to get qualified into the last32 once before. (last year with 9ball and a easy draw).

8 spots, 26 players, 12 top A players (2 european champions, international players, etc) , 12 players of my level (A/B+), 4 fish (B-/C).

I won all my matches 6-2, 6-3, 6-2 (2matches where my best results vs those players ever) and I qualified true the winnerside !! (so a better draw for the finals too).

Some friend told me they just think its a quickfix that will last a week and then dissapear. They refuse to believe you can get ALOT better in such a short time....

I hope they are wrong, and while time will tell, im enjoying EVERY single game and i'm finally getting some happyness back from the game. God knows pool is a love hate relationship, but I enjoy being around the table again. nothing more frustrating then playing daily, and miss back to back hangers.

:thumbup:

[Jason Robichaud]

Good news, it isn't a quick fix... bad news, it won't last. You will probably play some of the worst pool ever in the next couple months. This is when good practice will bring you out the other side an even better player. Improving is a real yo-yo journey.

[Solartje]

hi guys, update on the finals.

in short im dissapointed and not dissapointed. I finished 17th and won one match, so im more then happy with the final results, but i would prefere to have lost every match and play like i did in the qualifiers.

Stupid thing i did, was expecting alot... With the new stroke, i put the expectations to high, and when i finally arived and saw all the top players, i lost it. My arm was chaking like a leaf. I tried losening up some arm muscles, breathing exercises, but it would fade. On the pauze in the last stroking, feeling your arm tremble right before you pull the trigger is a horrible feeling.

second match i won because my oponent was even worse then me. I stole some important frames he should have won, and it gave me the mental advantage. He got angry and i didnt show the angry i had. I think this made me win it, and not my good play.

I was so tired from the qualifier and the 4year aniversary night with the wife, the 2 hour drive, i forgot about all i had learned here. When sitting down i always said to myself, DONT FORGET to check THIS AND THAT etC... and when i stood up, i had already forgotten it all.. :o

then i had a 3 hour wait in between matches, so i closed my eyes for a hour, eat something, drink some coffee, and i was feeling better. Played alot better, but had some very bad roles and my oponent wasnt leaving me anything when he missed. scratched 3 times on the break (was alternate break) with 3 balls potted on each break and open table for my opponent, opening a cluster bumped the 8 in, i touched the CB twice during warmup strokes (HOW stupid can you be..) at least the pots where going in like butter, so thats all i wanted. TO bad all the rest didnt go well.

So dissapointed i didnt play my A game, but im glad i played in the finals, and i know what to do next time. Get to bed earlyer, dont expect anything from myself, and dont fear the players ( i was surprised at how many chances these top players gave me... maybe they where stressed too, but i found the level of play (exept 3 or 4 players) below average. I wont fear them anymore.


Yesterday i played for 2 hours, to see if the arm was still ok, and it wasnt. So back to the camera to check, and everything was still ok on the camera. I got frustrated and called it a day.

Today, same problem but after some thinking, i came to the result i wasnt stroking nicely. The arm was still perfectly straight but i wasnt stroking well, so changed that, and its back ok.

I'll have to play 2 hours EVERY SINGLE day till this summer, PURELY concentrating on my straight arm and fluid stroke. I'll have too. I know that being off the green for 2days could rune all the work, so ill just shoot some straight in shots and only think about center ball hit, good position , straight arm and fluid stroke.

I still hope to win the state championship this weekend but this time I wont expect to win. Ill just concentrate on my stroke and not the BIG finals i have been playing for a year to get there :) I'm done with auto-pressurising myself.

[Phoenixblade]

You want snooker stroke and billiard stroke to be come 1...This is my advice to you..Watch all the videos of Alex Pagulayan...he has the combination of snooker and Filipino style of stroke:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[greyghost]

Dead crab you found a major and overlooked mechanical flaw the is such the simple fix it evades the majority, as everyone knows you can do everything wrong and get out with the best in the world, look at Davis’s dropping elbow (it drives me insane).

Back to the point, when the thumb is not pointed down on the grip hand it usually naturally seems to always want to point away from you say you are a lefty, well then Mr. thumb is going to be angled to the left, what this does is it evokes another axis to pivot off of, the elbow only pivots one way back and forth, but the shoulder has that 360 degree motion well so does the wrist,

I could go on an on with a scientific explanation but everyone here is smart enough to understand this concept, when you point the thumb straight down it wants to keep the wrist square with it, thus keeping you more square with the shot.

A friend who never wanted to listen to any helpers was having a lot of trouble being in line and he's a solid 7 and he tried it and BAM threw out a lot of problems and issues he was frustrated in that one sentence, "point your thumb straight down” it blew him out of the water, because its just such a silly thing to be so influential.

Little advice for beginners or anyone that try's this you will see immediate improvement but because of the fact its different than your usual, expect to be uncomfortable with it for a while. Just stay aware and soon enough you wont even have to think about it anymore. That’s all its about guys we are slaves to our habits, as such let us be slaves to good habits.

Oh almost forgot, glad to have the edit button lol, the thumb should not wrap around the cue no bend in that thumb that’s part of the reason everyone kills the grip they got the thumb wrapped, pretend like its a piece of flat steel that’s just butted up to it, and trust it completely you will find yourself thinking "its too loose" or whatever but you want it loose

Why do you think the better and the best players seem to get so much action on the ball with such effortless hits, ITS THEIR WRIST ACTION, the completely straight thumb keeps your wrist square with the shot while allowing and actually promoting it to have that beautiful loose delivery and follow-through.

Its the same in baseball most people don’t even know how to hold a bat properly, like they going to hack through a tree with it, the correct grip is almost exactly the same as with a proper golf club grip, the only thing I did different was my thumbs pointed up the barrel but never interlocking the pinkie and index finger, it helps your wrists be most capable of breaking which is where the majority and best type of bat speed comes from, and I had a tendency to let my bottom pinkie wrap under the knob...mantle held it with that pinkie trick, but that’s just personal preferences.

Ted Williams held the bat with the correct hand position. Why so he could swat the hell out the ball. With your top knuckles lined up like most do incorrectly then the guy would have been called Sherman Williams because its impossible to do it that great without that wrist action.

So just like ball we want the wrist action it gives you a lot of power without having to produce it with your strength which gives you more accuracy and makes it look effortless.


Thanks for reading,
The Greyghost

[thefonz]

most great players maintain the "7" shape of their bridge arm through the shoulders and down the forarm. looks like your right shoulder is too low and near the cue, cutting down on your follow through distance and causing your arm to collapse at the end of your stroke (anatomy....everyones arm tends to swing out right (or left for a lefty) when the angle between ones forearm and bicep close. take a look at a profile photo of most pro's at address and you'll see what i mean. try shooting with you're body alittle more upright and see if that changes anything, i'd be suprised if it doesn't. being low with your chin to the cue is overrated anyhow for pool, i think you can generate a better hit on the ball from a more upright stance. most of the best shotmakers in pool have a more upright stance (deuel, hatch, morris, etc.) one other thing also, the only part of the stroke where straightness matters is when and after you hit the ball, it should be a conscious effort to cue through the ball, don't just throw the cue and your arm forward. good luck

[Solartje]

thanks for posting greyghost and thefonz. I actually think that alot of poolplayers would benefit form all the tips that have been given in here.

I also wanted to give an update. Its been 2 months, and its only getting better day by day. Im glad this is not a 'i got a new trick hype' like most of my friends thought, that makes u play lights out for 2 weeks and then just vanishes. (god knows i had many of them)

ive been playing pool for 3 years now, and in the last 2 months my game has increased more then i did in the 3 years before that. I can't imagine how i won matches with this stroke. The accuracy was barely as "good" as the opening of a cornerpocket in long shots, now i can chose wich side of the pocket om hitting. If i still DO miss a pot, 95% is because i use one of my old strokes.

Before: warmup took me 1 hour. from missing pots, to potting pots.
now: warmup takes me 10 minuts. from potting pots , to potting in the side of the pocket i chose. No Z shaft or any cue will ever give me this improvement, and it was totally free :D

thanks AZB

[greyghost]

thanks for posting greyghost and thefonz. I actually think that alot of poolplayers would benefit form all the tips that have been given in here.

I also wanted to give an update. Its been 2 months, and its only getting better day by day. Im glad this is not a 'i got a new trick hype' like most of my friends thought, that makes u play lights out for 2 weeks and then just vanishes. (god knows i had many of them)

ive been playing pool for 3 years now, and in the last 2 months my game has increased more then i did in the 3 years before that. I can't imagine how i won matches with this stroke. The accuracy was barely as "good" as the opening of a cornerpocket in long shots, now i can chose wich side of the pocket om hitting. If i still DO miss a pot, 95% is because i use one of my old strokes.

Before: warmup took me 1 hour. from missing pots, to potting pots.
now: warmup takes me 10 minuts. from potting pots , to potting in the side of the pocket i chose. No Z shaft or any cue will ever give me this improvement, and it was totally free :D

thanks AZB


No problem brother, glad to hear your improving as such. It can be a difficult process. Many times someone tries to diagnose a problem and the "FIX" helps like you said temporary. Problem is in the diagnosis we may think the problem lies "here" but it actually lies somewhere else.

By correcting the wrong thing you ruin other parts. Thats what is so great about a routine...once you learn it properly and your mechanics are correct, then you can properly tell what was wrong with the shot at hand.

Just like that thumb, a player might swear his arms crooked or he's standing wrong so he adjusts all over the place. When it was just a crooked wrist all along, which just throws another rotational axis into the picture.

My girl loves that movie Ratatouie about the rat who can cook...it says anyone can cook. I really believe that, and its the same in pool/billiards, anyone can play and play great....it just takes a little patience, practice, and a constant stride for becoming a good student of the game.

So just keep sitting in the front of the class friend. Don't ever be scared to ask anything, and if no one else can or will give ya a hand, the ghost with the most is always the man to ask, understand?

Thats a good rhyme..lmfao



For a better game,
Grey Ghost

[SpiderWebComm]

hi guys, update on the finals.

in short im dissapointed and not dissapointed. I finished 17th and won one match, so im more then happy with the final results, but i would prefere to have lost every match and play like i did in the qualifiers.

Stupid thing i did, was expecting alot... With the new stroke, i put the expectations to high, and when i finally arived and saw all the top players, i lost it. My arm was chaking like a leaf. I tried losening up some arm muscles, breathing exercises, but it would fade. On the pauze in the last stroking, feeling your arm tremble right before you pull the trigger is a horrible feeling.

second match i won because my oponent was even worse then me. I stole some important frames he should have won, and it gave me the mental advantage. He got angry and i didnt show the angry i had. I think this made me win it, and not my good play.

I was so tired from the qualifier and the 4year aniversary night with the wife, the 2 hour drive, i forgot about all i had learned here. When sitting down i always said to myself, DONT FORGET to check THIS AND THAT etC... and when i stood up, i had already forgotten it all.. :o

then i had a 3 hour wait in between matches, so i closed my eyes for a hour, eat something, drink some coffee, and i was feeling better. Played alot better, but had some very bad roles and my oponent wasnt leaving me anything when he missed. scratched 3 times on the break (was alternate break) with 3 balls potted on each break and open table for my opponent, opening a cluster bumped the 8 in, i touched the CB twice during warmup strokes (HOW stupid can you be..) at least the pots where going in like butter, so thats all i wanted. TO bad all the rest didnt go well.

So dissapointed i didnt play my A game, but im glad i played in the finals, and i know what to do next time. Get to bed earlyer, dont expect anything from myself, and dont fear the players ( i was surprised at how many chances these top players gave me... maybe they where stressed too, but i found the level of play (exept 3 or 4 players) below average. I wont fear them anymore.


Yesterday i played for 2 hours, to see if the arm was still ok, and it wasnt. So back to the camera to check, and everything was still ok on the camera. I got frustrated and called it a day.

Today, same problem but after some thinking, i came to the result i wasnt stroking nicely. The arm was still perfectly straight but i wasnt stroking well, so changed that, and its back ok.

I'll have to play 2 hours EVERY SINGLE day till this summer, PURELY concentrating on my straight arm and fluid stroke. I'll have too. I know that being off the green for 2days could rune all the work, so ill just shoot some straight in shots and only think about center ball hit, good position , straight arm and fluid stroke.

I still hope to win the state championship this weekend but this time I wont expect to win. Ill just concentrate on my stroke and not the BIG finals i have been playing for a year to get there :) I'm done with auto-pressurising myself.

A friend of mine had the same problem as you and we lucked upon something.....

We found his cue steering stopped immediately if he stared at the cue ball and forgot about the OB. The moment his eyes locked on the OB, his cue would steer out on the final shot. If he only focused on the CB.... LASER straight.

Not saying this is the case with you, but maybe your mechanics are better than you think and your brain is sending your arm out to make an unneeded adjustment? Setup a long dead straight-in and shoot a few looking at the CB last (NOT saying for you to shoot that way, but do it as a way to diagnose).

I understand you've come around to fix this issue for the most part, but if the crooked stroke returns--- focus on the CB only to see if you stroke straight through that...your brain is a pain in the ass when it comes to pool...if it weren't for the brain, we'd all be on tour.

[Solartje]

A friend of mine had the same problem as you and we lucked upon something.....

We found his cue steering stopped immediately if he stared at the cue ball and forgot about the OB. The moment his eyes locked on the OB, his cue would steer out on the final shot. If he only focused on the CB.... LASER straight.

Not saying this is the case with you, but maybe your mechanics are better than you think and your brain is sending your arm out to make an unneeded adjustment? Setup a long dead straight-in and shoot a few looking at the CB last (NOT saying for you to shoot that way, but do it as a way to diagnose).

I understand you've come around to fix this issue for the most part, but if the crooked stroke returns--- focus on the CB only to see if you stroke straight through that...your brain is a pain in the ass when it comes to pool...if it weren't for the brain, we'd all be on tour.

Hey spider. I had tested this before some time before i made this post. (I dont know if you remember my post about the quiet eye, but you should read it if not.) Believe me, i have been "fixing" for 3 years without any consistant result, accept from now.

If a friend comes to me with problems about his stroke, i always advice them this thread. ITs FULL of usefull comments. If you have a stroke problem the chances are big that the solution is posted in here somewhere.

You are SO right, when you say that we fix everything we THINK is wrong, and screw up our game totally (i always thought it was just the initial "getting used to it" that made me play bad and i just had to hang in there). some fixes probably did help me play better, just because i consciously thought about the influence they can have, but they weren't the real problem.

i also delayed my elbow dropping just a split second, to be SURE it wasnt influencing the stroke before the contact with the ob. I still do drop the elbow to prevent the hitting the chest and it just feels more natural when im cueing low.

This weekend i played in a 2day marathon tournament. 15hour untill the finals where played. I played 13hours and lost in the quarter finals vs the winner of the tournament who missed 1 ball in the entire match. i run out 3 racks and got beaten 3-7 :D best score someone made that day vs her. also its the 2d highest place i ever achieved since i started playing.

MAN this game is fun, once the stroke is straight !!! :D

Im enjoying it so much, that after the 13hours, i went home and played another 8hours on my diamond baby. :rolleyes: If i ever win my first tournament, ill dedicate it to you guys !!

[theUBC]

Hi Solartje,

I am glad you have seemed to fix your stroke. I have invented a tool to check your alignment and stroke. It is dead simple but it has helped many players already. When our body and cue is not aligned perfectly our subconscious wants to correct this. This leads to steering. Another point is that you should not touch the cue with your index finger when your going to play a draw stroke and your going far through the cue ball-athourwise your gonna steer each time.
I post you a link to the training aid: (Ultimate billiard coach)

Best EKKES

http://infinite-billiards.com/en/The_UBC.html

[greyghost]

here we go again, hey fella if your gonna try and sell people snake oil then do it in the FOR SALE SECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[John Biddle]

Greyghost,

I think you are being totally unfair to theUBC. Though you didn't say so, it seems that you are slamming this device without having had any personal experience with it. If you have used the device then specific comments would add to this discussion. But if you haven't then you should cut the guy some slack.

I have used the Ultimate Billiard Coach, in fact I reviewed it on my website

Poolstudent's Review of the Ultimate Billiard Coach (http://www.poolstudent.com/2009/10/13/review-ultimate-billiard-coach/)

and it does an excellent job at helping you align yourself properly. Once you do that, you are in a much better position to improve the rest of your game.

theUBC is not spamming in my opinion. His device is directly relevant to this discussion, just like an instructional tape or a book would be. I don't know where your anger comes from but I think it's inappropriate in this case, and in the other instance where you said essentially the same thing.

[greyghost]

Greyghost,

I think you are being totally unfair to theUBC. Though you didn't say so, it seems that you are slamming this device without having had any personal experience with it. If you have used the device then specific comments would add to this discussion. But if you haven't then you should cut the guy some slack.

I have used the Ultimate Billiard Coach, in fact I reviewed it on my website

Poolstudent's Review of the Ultimate Billiard Coach (http://www.poolstudent.com/2009/10/13/review-ultimate-billiard-coach/)

and it does an excellent job at helping you align yourself properly. Once you do that, you are in a much better position to improve the rest of your game.

theUBC is not spamming in my opinion. His device is directly relevant to this discussion, just like an instructional tape or a book would be. I don't know where your anger comes from but I think it's inappropriate in this case, and in the other instance where you said essentially the same thing.

its aggravating because we have rules on this forum, and things that are for sale go in the for sale section, we just went through this with another person, and a person b/f that, and someone b/f that. If your going to post then read the rules, maybe his device is excellent I see that for the stroke it could possibly be a good gadget. But none of that matters, it doesn't belong here. You got master instructors on this forum and this is for instrucition not for come buy my product, there is a place specifically for that. I find stuff like that disrespectful and uncooth to everyone here and more so to the professional instructors trying to help all the learning players on this site. You let one person do that, and they all are going to take over. So no disrespect, but he went where others have gone before and they got bitten too. And as for the other post, he posted that on a STANCE question and that device tho it could help you attain a correct stroke, it has nothing to do with the stance. It's not going to show you how to adjust your feet, and secondly when even Scott Lee says it didn't belong there, you should just agree with him, like I said there are some of the best instructors on here, trying to do their jobs for FREE.

I pity the fool, (just a joke, not trying to start a mess)
The Mr. T of AZ:wink:


PS:just everyone follow forum rules...without them its like fast larry all over again, and i know we don't want that.

[John Biddle]

Greyghost, per this excerpt from your post:

its aggravating because we have rules on this forum, and things that are for sale go in the for sale section, we just went through this with another person, and a person b/f that, and someone b/f that. If your going to post then read the rules, maybe his device is excellent I see that for the stroke it could possibly be a good gadget. But none of that matters, it doesn't belong here. You got master instructors on this forum and this is for instrucition not for come buy my product, there is a place specifically for that. I find stuff like that disrespectful and uncooth to everyone here and more so to the professional instructors trying to help all the learning players on this site. You let one person do that, and they all are going to take over. So no disrespect, but he went where others have gone before and they got bitten too.

Would you be so kind as to point me to the posting rules you keep referring to? I can't seem to find them.

In the Instructors thread link on the main forum page it just says "We have many excellent instructors here on AzB. Ask your questions here."

There are no sticky posts on this thread either, so there doesn't seem to be any restriction against someone posting about a device, even one they themselves sell, which has the purpose of improving a person's stroke.

There is a sticky post in the main forum titled forum rules, but the only relevant portion I could find said that items for sale had to be pool related. It did not refer to where they could be referenced.

The inventor of the device in question, Ekkhard Schneider-Lombard, is an instructor, and runs the United Billiards Academy in Regensburg, Germany along with Bernd Jahnke. Jahnke is a 12 time European Pool champion and winner of the overall Eurotour ranking. That would seem to qualify him to post in this thread, not that qualifications are required or I (and possibly you) would have to be lurkers.

Thanks in advance for pointing me to the rules, as I am not interested in harming AZB in any way. It's a fantastic resource for all pool players. I just want to be sure that the rules you're asking/demanding people follow are AZB's rules, not your own.

[greyghost]

some one asked me what i meant with the technique of pointing the thumb down to straighten the stroke...i hadn't had the chance so i did my best with a cylinder if found offshore on my platform.

here is the pic, you can clearly see how the thumb is positioned. With the thumb wrapped it can cause a the wrist to cock to one side or the other, with it cocked no matter how much you have a straight delivery with the forarm you will still end up with a parabolic stroke. With the thumb down you can routinely product a straight stroke. Since your not fighting your own bodys mechanics. You should have a straight line from your back shoulder down to the hand and throught the striaght finger pointed to your back foot vertically, and horizontally it will all line up through the shoulder, elbow, hand, finger, front foot to the bridge hand. WHen you do this your going to be aligned and wont fight the mechanics, and will help your ball pocketing skills. Just remember the thump don't wrap it just sits on the side of the cue straight down to the back foot. If you want you can tie some crab string from your shoulder to and your back foot, and everything should fall in line. lol crap string is 1$

For a better game,
Grey Ghost

[Randy9Ball]

some one asked me what i meant with the technique of pointing the thumb down to straighten the stroke...i hadn't had the chance so i did my best with a cylinder if found offshore on my platform.

here is the pic, you can clearly see how the thumb is positioned. With the thumb wrapped it can cause a the wrist to cock to one side or the other, with it cocked no matter how much you have a straight delivery with the forarm you will still end up with a parabolic stroke. With the thumb down you can routinely product a straight stroke. Since your not fighting your own bodys mechanics. You should have a straight line from your back shoulder down to the hand and throught the striaght finger pointed to your back foot vertically, and horizontally it will all line up through the shoulder, elbow, hand, finger, front foot to the bridge hand. WHen you do this your going to be aligned and wont fight the mechanics, and will help your ball pocketing skills. Just remember the thump don't wrap it just sits on the side of the cue straight down to the back foot. If you want you can tie some crab string from your shoulder to and your back foot, and everything should fall in line. lol crap string is 1$

For a better game,
Grey Ghost

I believe the picture of Mika on the AZB Home page correctly reflects this thumb position you have described. Mika's thumb is straight down and not wrapped around the cue.

Regards,

Randy

[greyghost]

I believe the picture of Mika on the AZB Home page correctly reflects this thumb position you have described. Mika's thumb is straight down and not wrapped around the cue.

Regards,

Randy

yea but can he do it wearing a jacket, hardhat, and using and aerosol can LMAO

[Solartje]

been away for some time, but all i can say is that many of the things have sticked.

the thumb defently helped alot.
I added one thing in the last month that has been briefly described, but that i have been testing with ALOT, and that was the final missing link to my stroke problem.

position of my feeth. Its not the angle, the distance between them, but more there position in distance to the bridge hand. I have been checking out mechanics of the topplayers i can see playing, and when i tried there feet position, it was only posible if i stood further then i did before.

i draw many lines around my feet on the floor, and check wich had the best result, and still feel confortable and stable.

now i have them ecactly memorised. When i lay down my cue in the lign of sight, with the tip at 6-8" from the cb, i place my backfeet exactly under the bumper of my cue. That what has the best result for me. A/ it makes sure my feet and arm are aligned, b/ it makes sure im not leaning tomuch forward when bending down and it leaves more space for my griphand to folow trough.

ps: more info on results. I dont remember when i started this post, but till now its still working and becoming better. so not a quick fix, and ive been playing better and better.

i've managed to get enough rankingpoints, to go from B rankings, to A rankings. I thought i wouldnt be able to mach up with the topguys, but i have been beating some top12 players, and my biggest loss was 4-6. i'm beating players i never did before, Ive climbed up the rankings, and im now 20th ranked in my country, and i finally beat the ghost in 9ball last night in a race to 6 in my first try. made two 3packs and missed twice on the last 2 balls. Pool just looks so simple right now. OFcourse my position play is now behind, and ill be working on that, but on pot %, im MORE then satisfied.

now i know why those 3 months of thousands of straight in shots where worth it. :cool:

solly the happy new A ranking player :D

[greyghost]

been away for some time, but all i can say is that many of the things have sticked.

the thumb defently helped alot.
I added one thing in the last month that has been briefly described, but that i have been testing with ALOT, and that was the final missing link to my stroke problem.

position of my feeth. Its not the angle, the distance between them, but more there position in distance to the bridge hand. I have been checking out mechanics of the topplayers i can see playing, and when i tried there feet position, it was only posible if i stood further then i did before.

i draw many lines around my feet on the floor, and check wich had the best result, and still feel confortable and stable.

now i have them ecactly memorised. When i lay down my cue in the lign of sight, with the tip at 6-8" from the cb, i place my backfeet exactly under the bumper of my cue. That what has the best result for me. A/ it makes sure my feet and arm are aligned, b/ it makes sure im not leaning tomuch forward when bending down and it leaves more space for my griphand to folow trough.

ps: more info on results. I dont remember when i started this post, but till now its still working and becoming better. so not a quick fix, and ive been playing better and better.

i've managed to get enough rankingpoints, to go from B rankings, to A rankings. I thought i wouldnt be able to mach up with the topguys, but i have been beating some top12 players, and my biggest loss was 4-6. i'm beating players i never did before, Ive climbed up the rankings, and im now 20th ranked in my country, and i finally beat the ghost in 9ball last night in a race to 6 in my first try. made two 3packs and missed twice on the last 2 balls. Pool just looks so simple right now. OFcourse my position play is now behind, and ill be working on that, but on pot %, im MORE then satisfied.

now i know why those 3 months of thousands of straight in shots where worth it. :cool:

solly the happy new A ranking player :D

your doing almost the exact thing I do, instead of putting the cue tip 6-8" away from the ball, put the tip under the shadow, or say 1".

1)Hold cue where you are going to shoot with it on the backhand.

2)Place the back of your hand (pinkie area) on the side seam of your jeans on the pocket.

3)Keep it there and DO NOT REMOVE IT.

4) when you find your proper alignment, step in the the shot and place your hand down with the lead arm almost but not quite fully extended.

5) Take the back step to adjust your weight distrubution...NOW WATCH....

YOUR HAND AUTOMATICALY COMES OFF YOUR HIP, DIRECTLY UNDER THE SHOULDER, THUMB DOWN.

YOUR LEAD HAND IS GOING TO BE AUTOMATICALLY POSITIONED TO AN OPTIMUM POINT (6-8":smile:)

This works off a persons natural attributes, where ever you hold the cue the back hand will always be right, and the front hand will be automatic too.

Your going to look like your doing the robot, but your gonna be running out like one too :)

Glad to hear your game has improved partner, congratulations on all the hard work you put into it. Greenies to you.

Grey Ghost

[Scott Lee]

Sir...You are mistaken in your assessment here. Steering the cue comes from tension in the forward stroke...which may come from overflexing the bicep, or from too much grip pressure...or both (neither of which are addressed, nor 'corrected' by using the UBC). Saying that one shouldn't touch the cue with the index finger, when shooting a draw shot, is also nonsense. A person can hold the cue anyway they see fit, as long as the grip remains the same throughout the stroke. Length of followthrough has ZERO bearing on how well, or how much draw you get, with your stroke. I saw your product first hand, and tried it myself. It is, imo, another 'gimmick', that will help some people, and that is fine. It is, however, like most things, not a 'magic bullit', nor necessary to help someone find their correct stance and alignment to the shot. Also, as mentioned, your advertisement belongs in the FOR SALE forum, not the instructor forum.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hi Solartje,

I am glad you have seemed to fix your stroke. I have invented a tool to check your alignment and stroke. It is dead simple but it has helped many players already. When our body and cue is not aligned perfectly our subconscious wants to correct this. This leads to steering. Another point is that you should not touch the cue with your index finger when your going to play a draw stroke and your going far through the cue ball-athourwise your gonna steer each time.
I post you a link to the training aid: (Ultimate billiard coach)

Best EKKES

http://infinite-billiards.com/en/The_UBC.html

[Solartje]

im having the same troubles again. Had some very hard months at work with hardly any practice... ill guess ill read this post again and start all over with all the trying and video taping.


ps the short times when i do have time to play, ive been playing around with playing 1 handed to straighten my stroke. If it isn't perfectly straight you can't play one handed, because the forward movement will make the cue slide from the rail... as soon as the cue is on the rail, i bend down and start doing warmup strokes, my shoulder auto-corrects itself as soon as it starts gliding from one way to the other. frustrating is: at this moment i play better one handed (made a run of 25 in straight pool) then im with both hands and i can make some CRAZY difficult longpots that would :eek: even the best around..

this can only mean one thing. my body aligment is the cause of everything (what i already suspected after this thread). i can reduce the influence by using a very short backstroke and long forward stroke, but thats not what i want. i want to be able to do a big slow backstroke and then power it in when i need to by slowly accelerating rather then very rapid acceleration with a very short backswing...

Man a straight stroke is SO hard to maintain.... :mad: never thought this would be the hardest thing to learn in pool....

[Neil]

Make sure in your practice strokes that you are holding the cue lightly, and that it is naturaly going down the right line. Make sure you are not steering it at all. You might only have to shift your back foot an inch or two to get on the right line.

You can also hold your bridge hand higher to you actually stroke OVER the cb, and see what is actually happening with your stroke, where it ends up and why. Then, you will know what to correct on it.

Another BIG thing at your level- DON'T keep saying you are out of stroke, that will make you out of stroke! Sit down, close your eyes, and remember what it was like last time you were in dead stroke. THEN get up and expect to be in dead stroke. The mind is a wonderful or a terrible thing the better you get!

[pooltchr]

I sometimes have my students practice their stroke with their eyes closed. When you take away the visual aspect, the only thing you can do is feel the stroke. I use little stickers on the table, have them line up, close their eyes and stroke, then open their eyes and see where the tip finished.
It sounds strange, but it can be very effective in helping someone learn the feel of a straight stroke.

Steve

[3kushn]

I sometimes have my students practice their stroke with their eyes closed. When you take away the visual aspect, the only thing you can do is feel the stroke. I use little stickers on the table, have them line up, close their eyes and stroke, then open their eyes and see where the tip finished.
It sounds strange, but it can be very effective in helping someone learn the feel of a straight stroke.

Steve
I haven't read this entire thread and was simply going to suggest to pay attention to where the tip lands. But I've taken your suggestion a little further I think by placing a dot on an old CB with a sharpie pen (in leu of a training ball) and observe the chalk mark. Doing this with eyes closed should be a big plus to the drill.

Down to the basement I go with my eyes closed.

[Ratta]

I sometimes have my students practice their stroke with their eyes closed. When you take away the visual aspect, the only thing you can do is feel the stroke. I use little stickers on the table, have them line up, close their eyes and stroke, then open their eyes and see where the tip finished.
It sounds strange, but it can be very effective in helping someone learn the feel of a straight stroke.

Steve


I also like this part; so the student get an idea about the *point of no return* in the pre-stroke/stroke process- and even so learns to *believe* in his mechanics. After gettin all informations, and done all the *homework* like pep etc there s no need to let your eyes open :) (usualy :p)

lg,
Ingo

[pooltchr]

I often tell beginning students that before the first day is done, I will have them making shots with their eyes closed. They usually look at me like I'm nuts, but they are believers by the end of day one!

Steve

[Ratta]

Saw an instructor doing this *closed eyes* stroke on a snooker-table a bit ago ...with the blue ball on spot and the cueball about 2 metres far away shooting it diagonal into the cornerpocket-that was really impressive for the students (for me also watching it from some metres away :p).

[Mark Avlon]

Saw an instructor doing this *closed eyes* stroke on a snooker-table a bit ago ...with the blue ball on spot and the cueball about 2 metres far away shooting it diagonal into the cornerpocket-that was really impressive for the students (for me also watching it from some metres away :p).

It is impressive. What it takes is a good stance, good alignment, a straight smooth stroke, and an accurate aim. The funny thing is, anyone can do it (on a pool table :wink:) with a some training and practice.

[pooltchr]

What it takes is a good stance, good alignment, a straight smooth stroke, and an accurate aim.

Oddly enough, all things that we spend a considerable amount of time on in pool school!

:smile:

Steve

[Solartje]

hi all, thanks for the reactions.

I actually also play pool eyes-closed from time to time. i think its the best confidence builder and really makes you focus on the stroke, fading all the rest out. i should do it more often !!


well after spending some days working on the stroke again (after that 1 horrible day), i'm very close to finaly having all the flaws smoothed out again (+1 i only noticed this week).

Im back to the more snooker-stance. feeth closer, backleg straight, body ligned up with the shot, rather then the 45°.
This + the changes in my hand (tumb down tric), closed eye and one handed eye training of the stroke itself

results:
- im drawing the cueball twice as far with 25% less force used. i loooove the increased cuepower! really helps missing less shots, as im not using my shoulder anymore to generate cuepower, but im using my stroke to its maximum.

- training: spread 10balls around on the table (no big clusters), BIH, my record was running a 3 pack. I run an amazing 7-pack this weekend while the wife was watching. i just laughed it off as unbelieve.. out of this world for me :D

- state championship: ps: best result in the last 3 years was 13th place.

monday was the qualifiers, i lost my first match (although i played alot better, I had some horrible run of the balls), straight to the loser-side, but i managed to win every single match after that, and qualify for the next day.

wendsday was the Last 24, i managed to win every match there (some 5-0 included), and i finished in 3th place :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: (losing to the winner of the state championship, a ex snookerplayer with loads of century's under his belt). This beats the crap out of any tournament result i ever had!!! i beat loads of players who i consider being ALOT better all-round, but my pot was amazing. i don't think ive missed more then 1 ball /match. either a clearance or a scratch/snooker.


happy solly !!!!!!

[sigep1967]

This whole thread shoud be a sticky! there is some really good info and insights in this about stroking the cueball. this thread plus a new cue have improved me about 2 balls in a week. Amazing!!

[Mark Avlon]

Congratulations on your efforts to correct you mechanics and the success its given you!

If something falls apart later, I'm sure you're in a good position to easily fix it.

[Descente36]

OHere's a few tips I've learned over the years.

Don't think simply about hitting the cueball, the most important factor is how straight the cue pushes THROuGH the cueball.

One aspect of stroking many players forget about or totally ignore is timing. Time your stroke so that the cue tip hits the cueball at the very bottom of the pendulum. Hitting the cueball at the same phase of the pendulum every time ensures consistency.

ACCELERATE your stroke through the cueball just prior to impact.

you'll notice many pros will pause right before the final follow-through stroke. This gives them time to visualize or feel the stroke right before stroking. Stroking is all about feel.

Try flicking your wrist into the stroke. Great players like Willie Mosconi subtly flick their wrist into every shot. Its another great way to generate consistency. Time the wrist flick to just a moment before impact to accelerate through the cue ball.

Remember, every pro has their own stance and method of stroking. There is no official method of stroking

[pooltchr]

OHere's a few tips I've learned over the years.

Don't think simply about hitting the cueball, the most important factor is how straight the cue pushes THROuGH the cueball.

Take it even a step further. Don't think about hitting the ball. Just think about finishing your stroke. If you set it up properly, finishing your stroke is automatically going to result in the cue hitting the ball.

One aspect of stroking many players forget about or totally ignore is timing. Time your stroke so that the cue tip hits the cueball at the very bottom of the pendulum. Hitting the cueball at the same phase of the pendulum every time ensures consistency.

Again, this will happen if you set up properly to begin with.



Good points.

Steve

[Solartje]

If something falls apart later, I'm sure you're in a good position to easily fix it.

exactly :) if you see the post where i lost it, and my last post, it only took me 1 hour to read this thread again, and 2h/day of stroke training to get back in there.

I agree this thread has many many good comments. sometimes it easy to explain something and hard to really understand it, and actually do what has been said correctly without having someone to watch over you.

thanks to the digital camera's to help us out.

I'll post a new small vid of the new stroke when i find some time.


ps something i have adjusted: when i started, i was holding the cue at 90° arm at CB impact, over time i prefered to hold the cue around 3-4 inches closer to the joint.

i have seen alot of good players to it, and here on the forums i have read that it isn't really a problem as long as the stroke is consistent. now after training and analysing, i have found that im as consistent with holding them at 90° and slightly further (hitting CB at same point every time)

BUT !!!

there is one thing that i didnt think of: By holding the cue closer to the joint, the cuetip won't travel as far at the end of the stroke, because at impact with cb my hand is closer to the end of the pendulum.

the thing is: you automaticaly have a shorter folow true if you hold the cue closer to the joint. so i have changed that too, and probably it is one of the reasons why im having more cuepower.

accelaration: been playing with this around, and i have watched snookerplayers alot lately, because they have (in my eyes) the best accelaration/timing. i think besides the longer folow through, this is also giving me more cuepower: after the pauze, as soon as the cue moves, im starting the pendulum alot slower, this does that i have to accelerate faster to get at the same speed at CB impact. (the pauze and slower speed in the beginning, makes the back to forward movement less jurky), and the higher acceleration needed, makes sure 1/ I accelerate 2/better stroke

easyest way to explain the acceleration is. if you would have a Time/speed diagram, you would have a arc instead of a straight line. the acceleration is not constant, but slowly increases.

:thumbup: thanks for all the tips, and i hope others have some use of my tips.


ps i played another final this weekend... thingq are falling into place :D

im sure that 99% of the C/D/B level players would increase several balls, by taking the time to REALLY understand what a good straight accelerated stroke with enough folow through and a good body position is and does....


ps hand flick: how do you do this? could you draw or post a link to a video?

[Mark Avlon]

there is one thing that i didnt think of: By holding the cue closer to the joint, the cuetip won't travel as far at the end of the stroke, because at impact with cb my hand is closer to the end of the pendulum.

the thing is: you automaticaly have a shorter folow true if you hold the cue closer to the joint. so i have changed that too, and probably it is one of the reasons why im having more cuepower.

With a good set position, being forward of perpendicular won't cause a problem as long as your tip is close to the cue ball in the set position. It will shorten your follow through, but that's not a problem. You don't need to make it longer than that, and doing so doesn't serve any purpose.

To increase power, you simply need to accelerate faster, or increase the length of your back swing to allow for a longer time to accelerate.

Keep in mind that the length of the back swing is a trade off between accuracy and power. The length of your back swing needs to allow for a smooth acceleration of the cue for the power you want, while maintaining accuracy. The better your mechanics are, the easier it is to use power accurately.

[Mark Avlon]

I agree this thread has many many good comments. sometimes it easy to explain something and hard to really understand it, and actually do what has been said correctly without having someone to watch over you.

And if that someone is a good instructor, improvements come fast and easy. It's amazing how may struggling players would rather try to learn the hard way, when good instructors are available.

[Descente36]

here's Efren Reyes' stroke. Check out the looseness in his wrist and the position of his wrist after the shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6sKPP9nuis&feature=player_embedded#