3 cushion or just carom shots?

[Hal]

Is this a 3 cushion billiard forum? Or is it just to talk about carom shots? I bought some shirts that didn't fit and had to carom all back to Wal-Mart.

[1pRoscoe]

LOL, I think he is referring to 3 cushion, or "That table over there with no pockets!!"

Speaking of which - Deno, question for you. What is the percentage of making a shot each turn at the table? Sometimes it gets really frustrating when you are playing and go 3-4 (sometimes more!) turns without even scoring a point, let alone multiple.... I only ask this because I have never really seen a great player play the game, only what I consider great players in my region...

Ross

[1pRoscoe]

Oh, now I'm jealous!!!

This (http://www.3cushion.com/Other%20Tournaments/copaelitte2004.htm) is what a tournament is supposed to be like!!!! :D

[Deno J. Andrews]

Great question. Billiards is the only cue sport that has a true measure of how well you are playing. It is called your average. It is the average number of billiards made per inning. If you go into a pool room in the U.S. and see what you think is a good room-level billiard player, he or she is probably averaging about .4-.5 which means in ten innings, four or five billiards will be made. .5-.6 is starting to be an above average room player who can probably compete locally and do ok. .6-.7 means a strong regional player or "shortstop" as you guys call them in the pool world. .7-.9 is a strong national class player who is able to beat players with higher averages from time to time, just not regularly. Many National championships here have been won with .9 and lower averages. .9-1.1 (9 to 11 billiards in ten innings) is an above average international player who has probably won many minor championships. 1.1 to 1.3 players are consistently in the top 50 in the world. 1.3-1.5 players in the top 30. 1.5+ are in the top four or five in the world. There are several players who have topped 2.0 in a tournament, which, if you ever get around to playing the game seriously you will be amazed at how impossible that feat seems.

Most players here don't keep their averages because they don't want to know. Also, most players I know are so far off about their averages that when asked, they will sometimes say their average is twice what it really is. Those are the same players that usually talk about high runs, which while really cool to have from time to time, really don't impress other billiard players like a nice average does.

To put your open inning thoughts into perspective, it is not uncommon for most players to go a few innings without scoring. Billiards is a difficult game.

And when you look at averages, there are a lot of considerations. There are playing conditions that are good for scoring, and the opposite. If table and ball conditions are not good for scoring, most players' averages will drop...because in the end the average is just the average; we are still trying to win! So there may be more defensive play because it is more difficult to score. Also, because the average is just the average, two players can have the same average with one of them consistently making one or two every inning or so, while the other one is running fives and tens what seems like all the time...the only difference is that the high runner is having several open innings between his high runs. The high runner always looks more impressive to an uninformed crowd...despite both being the same in ability.

I hope this answers your questions.

Deno Andrews

[Deno J. Andrews]

Is this a 3 cushion billiard forum? Or is it just to talk about carom shots? I bought some shirts that didn't fit and had to carom all back to Wal-Mart.
3-cushion, straight rail, balk-line, basically anything about the table with no pockets.
Deno

[Deno J. Andrews]

Oh, now I'm jealous!!!

This (http://www.3cushion.com/Other%20Tournaments/copaelitte2004.htm) is what a tournament is supposed to be like!!!! :D
That was a great tournament! I was happy to have been invited to play. I was not in any sort of tournament shape having not really competed for several years...though I did play well (despite my 1/6) and lost four of those six games by a total of only 7 points which did not make me a happy camper.
Deno

[1pRoscoe]

Deno, thank you very much for taking the time to explain in such great detail. I'd be afraid to know what my average is, although my high run (only once) is 6. I think I have maybe played no more than 200-300 innings of 3c in my life. I was told by a friend of mine who is a billiard fanatic that the average of making a billiard in an inning is somewhere around 40% by a pro, which after reading your post, seems to be on the lower side.

Regarding table conditions, I agree 110%. I have been spoiled to playing on a new Voerhoeven (sp?) with heated cloth and Aramith pro balls.

Thanks again, and I look forward to chatting with you in the future!

Ross

[Deno J. Andrews]

Deno, thank you very much for taking the time to explain in such great detail. I'd be afraid to know what my average is, although my high run (only once) is 6. I think I have maybe played no more than 200-300 innings of 3c in my life. I was told by a friend of mine who is a billiard fanatic that the average of making a billiard in an inning is somewhere around 40% by a pro, which after reading your post, seems to be on the lower side.

Regarding table conditions, I agree 110%. I have been spoiled to playing on a new Voerhoeven (sp?) with heated cloth and Aramith pro balls.

Thanks again, and I look forward to chatting with you in the future!

Ross
Where and with whom do you play on a Verhoeven? There are not many in this country outside of NY, Chicago, and my basement of course :)

No problem about the explanation of average.

Deno

[1pRoscoe]

Where and with whom do you play on a Verhoeven? There are not many in this country outside of NY, Chicago, and my basement of course :)

No problem about the explanation of average.

Deno

Arnie .... something... in Round Rock, TX. He has it set up at G-Cue Billiards, but it is his personal table. He struck a deal with the room owner. I know that Arnie travels to different tournaments to spectate.

He flew an oriental guy out of California (I believe) to do all of his maintenance work.

[Deno J. Andrews]

Arnie Hartikka. Great guy. Please send my regards next time you see or talk to him ok? He probably had a guy by the name of In Soo Park do the table. He is the same guy I fly in from L.A. to Chicago to do my table work.
Deno

[1pRoscoe]

Arnie Hartikka. Great guy. Please send my regards next time you see or talk to him ok? He probably had a guy by the name of In Soo Park do the table. He is the same guy I fly in from L.A. to Chicago to do my table work.
Deno

That's exactly who it is! His last name escaped me momentarily. That is also the person that set up the table.

I will probably see him within the next week, I will be sure to send the message.

[JPB]

"Most players here don't keep their averages because they don't want to know."



It is scary indeed. Back when I got to play a little I played a small weekly handicapped tournament where you had to keep track of averages. Depressing for most, including me. Wish there was a decent billiard table within 50 miles of here.:-(

[Deno J. Andrews]

"Most players here don't keep their averages because they don't want to know."



It is scary indeed. Back when I got to play a little I played a small weekly handicapped tournament where you had to keep track of averages. Depressing for most, including me. Wish there was a decent billiard table within 50 miles of here.:-(
Where do you live? There are lots of carom tables in the homes of billiard players. If I know someone in your area...and believe me if there is, I know him :), I will be happy to put you in touch with someone.
Deno

[JPB]

Where do you live? There are lots of carom tables in the homes of billiard players. If I know someone in your area...and believe me if there is, I know him :), I will be happy to put you in touch with someone.
Deno


Idaho. Southern part. Only table I have found is a 4.5X9 with bad cushions. Slow, short, more crashes. I don't bother to play very often on it and that one is 2 hours away.

[deep]

Deno, I just wanted to say welcome to the forum ( i haven't been here to long myself) and i'm really looking forward to your posts. I've only really discovered 3C in the last year or so and its fasinated me ever since, i'm hoping to learn a lot more over the next few years. Unfortunatly with me living in the U.K there are no 3C tables available, i guess i'll have to take a trip in to europe soon to try it out.

I'm looking forward to learning a lot from this forum and hopefully seeing more of your cue collection. ;)

[Deno J. Andrews]

Deno, I just wanted to say welcome to the forum ( i haven't been here to long myself) and i'm really looking forward to your posts. I've only really discovered 3C in the last year or so and its fasinated me ever since, i'm hoping to learn a lot more over the next few years. Unfortunatly with me living in the U.K there are no 3C tables available, i guess i'll have to take a trip in to europe soon to try it out.

I'm looking forward to learning a lot from this forum and hopefully seeing more of your cue collection. ;)
Thanks for the warm welcome. If you are near London, you can always get over to France pretty easily for some billiards. If and when you ever make the trek, let me know and I can suggest some places in Paris...or if can get over to Belgium I can hook you up with some of the best players in the world for a little billiards.

Deno

[Bob Jewett]

... I was told by a friend of mine who is a billiard fanatic that the average of making a billiard in an inning is somewhere around 40% by a pro, ...

There is a simple relationship between per-inning average and percent scoring rate, but it's not immediately obvious. If a player averages 1.00 per inning, which is pretty good for a room player, it means he gets one point per inning, but he also misses once per inning, so he will be 50%. If a player averages 2.00 per inning, which is now fairly common for the winners of world-class tournaments, the scoring fraction is 2/(1+2) or 67%. When Blomdahl averaged 4.00 in a 60-point game, he took 15 innings and had 14 misses, for a percentage of 81%. Recently Jaspers averaged 2.66 for a whole tournament, which is better than 72% scoring (2.66/3.66)

Another way to look at it is that a 1.000 player misses 1 in 2, while an 80% player misses 1 in 5 -- very rare!

[1pRoscoe]

There is a simple relationship between per-inning average and percent scoring rate, but it's not immediately obvious. If a player averages 1.00 per inning, which is pretty good for a room player, it means he gets one point per inning, but he also misses once per inning, so he will be 50%. If a player averages 2.00 per inning, which is now fairly common for the winners of world-class tournaments, the scoring fraction is 2/(1+2) or 67%. When Blomdahl averaged 4.00 in a 60-point game, he took 15 innings and had 14 misses, for a percentage of 81%. Recently Jaspers averaged 2.66 for a whole tournament, which is better than 72% scoring (2.66/3.66)

Another way to look at it is that a 1.000 player misses 1 in 2, while an 80% player misses 1 in 5 -- very rare!

Wow, that really puts what I was thinking into perspective. I didn't take into consideration the "miss" of the end of the inning.

Thanks, Bob!