Is Billiard industry legally obligated to take care of starving pro players? [Archive]

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vagabond

10-09-2005, 07:55 PM

Rude Dog

10-09-2005, 08:20 PM

vagabond

10-09-2005, 08:27 PM

No, I don't feel that they are ENTITLED to anything, but I think they deserve it. They've given their life to this game, good or bad, and that seems to be worth of something, IMO. Peace, John.

I liked that diplomatic response and I can`t disagree with that.Few days I drove thru kingman and this time stopped at McDonalds instead of my favorite Taco Bell. :cool:

Celtic

10-09-2005, 09:52 PM

Nostroke

10-09-2005, 10:06 PM

I liked that diplomatic response and I can`t disagree with that.Few days I drove thru kingman and this time stopped at McDonalds instead of my favorite Taco Bell. :cool:

In What Nat King Cole classic is Kingman Az mentioned?

Rude Dog

10-09-2005, 10:24 PM

In What Nat King Cole classic is Kingman Az mentioned?
Get your kicks on Route 66?

SnakePool

10-09-2005, 10:44 PM

how many of the pro players are taken care of by the NFL? How many are taken care of if they are injured and can no longer play?

Being a professional does not entitle you to "special" privileges. Alot the nfl guys lose/waste their money on crap and needless BLING. I say if you don't take care of yourself, who will?

If I was to ever go pro, which indeed may never happen, I have one word for you... INTEREST!!!!

JustPlay

10-10-2005, 12:17 AM

No, I don't feel that they are ENTITLED to anything, but I think they deserve it. They've given their life to this game, good or bad, and that seems to be worth something, IMO. Peace, John.

Over the last 15 years (and maybe longer) the only retired and current pool players who have committed their time, money and efforts to make Professional Pool a success (other than playing) in the US are Grady Mathews, Allen Hopkins, Steve Mizerak (Senior events), Charlie Williams, Pat Flemming and now Mike Sigel w/ KT.

Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, Buddy Hall and most of the other HOF's just played pool. I have not seen or heard of anyone of them, even today solicit corporations for sponsorships, promote tournaments or even go out of their way to support the other players who I mentioned above with their endevors. And if they do, they all have their hands out first and foremost, thats what is important to them.

Where are all the HOF's today? Non-existant or if they do show up to a tourny or event, they want a "appearence" fee, free room and board, free entry into the tournament and free food. What about the new players today and the future players? The HOF's or the forefathers of the game did not look out for these players, buy trying to make the game a success at a professional level, they just were looking out for themselves and what they can get for themselves. That is partly why Professional pool in the US is like is today and for the most part what it will be for the future. Player have to look out for themselves.

So, I think the HOF's deserve what they have sewn. Nothing. They should all be thanking Mike Sigel for getting them involved in the IPT.

This has nothing to do with any of those players skills on the pool table or their personalities or weather or not they are a good or bad person. I am just talking about there contributions outside of playing, that has detracted professional pool in the US to be on par with other professional games and sports and contribute to a Professional Tour with some longivity to it.

mjantti

10-10-2005, 05:04 AM

onepocketchump

10-10-2005, 05:45 AM

No, the "billiard industry" is not required to take care of any players nor run a pro tour. The only reason that the industry as a group (the BCA) takes an interest in professional pool is to further the popularity of pool and therefore sell more pool equipment, particularly pool tables and cloth. The primary reason that any individual company does anything with professional pool is exposure. The secondary reason is probably a toss up between altruism and ego.

The majority of this industry is pool tables and cloth. That is what is most sold in this country. Most of those people buying pool tables and cloth don't even care who the number one professional pool player is. Most of the league players in this country don't care who the number one professional pool player is.

The "industry" has a financial obligation to itself to collectively do what is needed to make the game so attractive that not only are people "playing" but that there are literally tens of thousands of players who are actively TRYING to become professionals. Then, and only then, will pro players be taken care of. But the industry as a collective has failed and so private promoters OWN the playing of organized pool on both the amateur and pro levels.

John

vagabond

10-10-2005, 06:04 AM

i'm missing something in this thread?

as far as i know there is no organization known as "the billiard industry".

if there is not an organization known as "the billiard industry" how could they be legally obligated to take care of anything???

where would they get the funds to take care of anything???

where do they get the personel to run "the billiard industry" :confused:

Hi,
The term Billiard industry is used refering to the manufacturors of products used to play pool---tables,sticks,cloth,balls,Chalk ,cue repair kit hand gloves etc..
Many pros seem to expect that they should be getting most of their pay checks from these manufacturers.My position is : NO,they are NOT entitled.
I always talk about legal and moral obligations when talking about relationships between 2 groups of people or two individuals etc.I believe that in the absence of those obligations one looses the right to demand.

Snapshot9

10-10-2005, 06:06 AM

don't have anything unless they have other sources of income,
or have to rely on friends they have made for business offers.
I feel this is the cart before the horse because we do not have
an organization in our country that is anywhere advanced enough
to even make goals concerning the welfare of retired pool players,
let alone work towards it. Most pro players live a 'day to day'
existence without a great deal of security for the future. I feel
for the ones that are married and have kids, the pressure must
be enormous on them. They have as much security as an aging
hooker, and unless someone comes along like Henry Winkler did
in Night Shift to rescue them, their futures don't look too good.

vagabond

10-10-2005, 06:10 AM

In What Nat King Cole classic is Kingman Az mentioned?

I rarely watch hollywood movies.I watch sitcoms and CNN, FOX news on TV.I listen to Rush Limbaugh on Radio on occassions.Beyond this I know nothing about entertaiment industry.
:cool:

Rich R.

10-10-2005, 06:43 AM

So, I think the HOF's deserve what they have sewn. Nothing.
I think you are being a little bit rough on the HOF's of the past.

Most never made a living from playing tournament pool. If they made a living from pool at all, it was from playing on the road, which takes a lot of time and has no security.
A few were lucky enough to start businesses, usually pool rooms, which is not the most lucritive business in the world. Those were the lucky ones.
Few of these players had the education to do anything but play pool.
This is the life these players chose and I don't mean for you to feel sorry for them. But there is a limit as to what they could have done to promote pool, without getting some sort of fee for it.

Don't be too quick to judge the HOF's of the past. It was not as glamorous a life at you may think.

I do agree that they should be thankfull to MS and KT for bringing them back into the light and giving them a good pay day. I'm sure most of them are very appreciative.

vagabond

10-10-2005, 07:41 AM

don't have anything unless they have other sources of income,
They have as much security as an aging
hooker, and

After the pimp`s cut and paying cocaine dealer, a hooker still has some money.If she carefully invests she should be fine otherwise a job in Donut shop will be waiting for her.If a pro player has a trade like Jeff Carter ( is a fitter and is now working in construction) he can survive.

Snapshot9

10-10-2005, 08:13 AM

After the pimp`s cut and paying cocaine dealer, a hooker still has some money.If she carefully invests she should be fine otherwise a job in Donut shop will be waiting for her.If a pro player has a trade like Jeff Carter ( is a fitter and is now working in construction) he can survive.

That this is speculation on your part, or otherwise you do not have
any real experience with either. Hookers do not feel like having sex
on coke (maybe after the high, but not during), and guys can not
perform on coke. Most hookers do not have a 'pimp', and times are
hard, they do not get much, and plus when they wake up everyday,
they are usually broke. And when you have not had any real job
experience for years and years, getting a 9 to 5 job is not the easiest
thing to do, even though they want to. Plus many have outstanding
warrants on them.

vagabond

10-10-2005, 08:27 AM

That this is speculation on your part, or otherwise you do not have
any real experience with either. Hookers do not feel like having sex
on coke (maybe after the high, but not during), and guys can not
perform on coke. Most hookers do not have a 'pimp', and times are
hard, they do not get much, and plus when they wake up everyday,
they are usually broke. And when you have not had any real job
experience for years and years, getting a 9 to 5 job is not the easiest
thing to do, even though they want to. Plus many have outstanding
warrants on them.

I am yielding to your experience.

JustPlay

10-10-2005, 08:57 AM

I think you are being a little bit rough on the HOF's of the past.

Most never made a living from playing tournament pool. If they made a living from pool at all, it was from playing on the road, which takes a lot of time and has no security.
A few were lucky enough to start businesses, usually pool rooms, which is not the most lucritive business in the world. Those were the lucky ones.
Few of these players had the education to do anything but play pool.
This is the life these players chose and I don't mean for you to feel sorry for them. But there is a limit as to what they could have done to promote pool, without getting some sort of fee for it.

Don't be too quick to judge the HOF's of the past. It was not as glamorous a life at you may think.

I do agree that they should be thankfull to MS and KT for bringing them back into the light and giving them a good pay day. I'm sure most of them are very appreciative.

I know their is not much money in being a professional pool player unless you are in the top 20 in the world or/and have sponsorship(s) and the majority of them had and continue to gamble in back rooms to help make a living (but, that is their choice alone). My point is that most of the HOF's could have and still can lend there names and some of their time to help create a regular professional tour or help get sponsorship from somewhere. I don't mind if they get some compensation for it, its their time and by winning major tournaments throughout their careers, got into the HOF of billiards they are entitled to compensation in these regards. But, these guys don't even get together and make an effort in the least bit to help the players and promoters of today here in the US.

Most of these HOF's played in an era that had regular professional tournament schedules, compared to today with only major tournaments being held. Today, the majority of players come from over seas and are winning most of the tournaments. Which is goes to show how great pool has become around the world and looks like it will continue to do so. But here in the US, we are back to playing catch up by not having a mens professional tour. The new generation of players or players who choose a pool players life will have to at least graduated college and have a back up plan. Mens professional pool here in the US needs help from it HOF's if its going to come back and succeed. I can only thank Mike Sigel and the others who are willing to sacrafice to make that happen, no matter what the format of the tour is. Changes can be made, but it has to start somewhere.

Thanks for reading to my ramblings...........

JAM

10-10-2005, 09:03 AM

...Thanks for reading to my ramblings...........

I actually enjoyed reading your "ramblings." Much of what you post does make quite a bit of sense, to me at least! :)

JAM

Nostroke

10-10-2005, 09:11 AM

Get your kicks on Route 66?

That's it except the actual title is just Rte 66 i think.

macguy

10-10-2005, 09:41 AM

I'm not familiar with USA pension system, but do retired pro players have a pension ? I bet many players haven't paid their taxes on their pool related income.

So, my question is: how can a retired pro player support himself if he hasn't been able to put money aside during his career ? Some players might find themselves unable to play and have to retire (Miz, Kim Davenport almost...)

Most pool players from my experience don't have a clue as to how normal people actually live their lives. They pay no income taxes have no health insurance or any idea what property taxes or self employment taxes are or have ever paid into social security or anything. I hope the ones that do win a little money from this thing they take the tax out right off the top or they will have the government coming after the in a short time. There is no chance most of the ones I know will pay if they think in their little pea brains they can get away with it.

Unless there is going to be some kind of organization set up for players that will allow them to get health insurance and other benefits that you get just working in a grocery store they will for the most part just have a few bucks in their pockets for a short time and that will be about it, no real life changing improvement. This thing has to go much deeper then just having a few tournaments to really change the lives of pro pool players to any degree at all. Many forget that most of these players, at least according to them, have had money in their pockets at one time or another and don't have anything to show for any of it. Without a strong player organizing working for them they will just find their lives in the end the same.

bobroberts

10-10-2005, 10:09 AM

If you decide to become a pro pool player then you should know what you are getting yourself into.You probably dropped out of school to hustle your next meal.Its a personal decision.look at all the pro boxers who make millions and wind up broke.Its a personal choice and you either have a game plan or suffer the consequences.No one has put money away for me,I did that all by myself.

vagabond

10-10-2005, 11:39 AM

there would first have to be an organization to make a demand of! a bunch of different companies in one industry does not make an organization that could be held liable for something. one poster refers to the nfl - but there is no nfl like organization in the pool industry.

Hi,
Union for what? unions role comes into play when there are contracts between the industry and the players.Industry is not related to the players in any shape or form.They do not have any contracts with pro players.They do not even have to say hello to the players.Simply because one is a pro player one does not automatically have the right to demand.Bottom line:A pro player dare not expect free practice time when he walks into a pool room.
Pro player endorsing a product is a different subject and does not pertain to this topic and hence I omitted it from the discussion.

Jimmy M.

10-10-2005, 12:34 PM

macguy

10-10-2005, 12:56 PM

Are starving pool players legally obligated to take care of the billiard industry? Because alot of what I read on this forum is people putting the weight of the success or failure of pool squarely on their shoulders. I believe this door swings both ways myself.

I am not sure the existence of the pro player has any effect on the industry of pool, they just don't matter. People love to play pool and could care less about pro's. I have put on enough tournaments to figure that out. I was at one Camel pro tournament that was being run in the next room to one of those big league events where they have like 1000 players or more. Almost none came next door to watch the pro tournament. For the finals that was taped for TV, they moved everyone to the front on the side where most of the camera shots were, so it would look like someone was there the place was so empty. I put on tournaments in pool rooms with some of the top players in the country playing where people would come to the door and when they see the tournament would ask when it will be over so they can get a table and play. Pro's have no bearing on the health of the pool industry, I am sorry to say, they just don't matter. The success or failure of pro tournaments is not an indicator or the state of pool.

etimmons

10-10-2005, 02:54 PM

I know their is not much money in being a professional pool player unless you are in the top 20 in the world or/and have sponsorship(s) and the majority of them had and continue to gamble in back rooms to help make a living (but, that is their choice alone). My point is that most of the HOF's could have and still can lend there names and some of their time to help create a regular professional tour or help get sponsorship from somewhere. I don't mind if they get some compensation for it, its their time and by winning major tournaments throughout their careers, got into the HOF of billiards they are entitled to compensation in these regards. But, these guys don't even get together and make an effort in the least bit to help the players and promoters of today here in the US.

Most of these HOF's played in an era that had regular professional tournament schedules, compared to today with only major tournaments being held. Today, the majority of players come from over seas and are winning most of the tournaments. Which is goes to show how great pool has become around the world and looks like it will continue to do so. But here in the US, we are back to playing catch up by not having a mens professional tour. The new generation of players or players who choose a pool players life will have to at least graduated college and have a back up plan. Mens professional pool here in the US needs help from it HOF's if its going to come back and succeed. I can only thank Mike Sigel and the others who are willing to sacrafice to make that happen, no matter what the format of the tour is. Changes can be made, but it has to start somewhere.

Thanks for reading to my ramblings...........
Mike Sigel Is making 300,000 or 400,000 for the first 2 tournaments on the ITP , what a sacrifice.

unknownpro

10-10-2005, 03:01 PM

:cool: After reading some posts on this board I get a feeling that some of the posters are making it look like that pro players are entitled for a living and also the postings indicate that the industry needs to chip in.I do not know whether the pro players truely feel that way or not.But the posters appear to strongly believe that the pro are entitled.I do not know whether these posters represent the pros players or not.
I am of the opinion that the industry is NEITHER LEGALLY NOR MORALLY obligated to take care of the pro players.Expecting the industry to take care of them is nothing but sense of entitlement.My position is:you are entitled for nothing.Live with that.
I like to play devil`s advocate.Inviting slings and arrows.....

Note: only one arrow at a time
Vagabond :cool:
I disagree. The billiard industry makes billiard equipment for players and room operators. It is in their own interest to promote the game at its highest level, so that people continue to play pool, instead of golf, tennis, checkers or whatever. Building a tradition of established tournaments like the U.S. Open is their moral responsability because they are the ones making money off of pool, so they should be taking care of the game. Let them make hockey pucks if they don't like pool. The BCA should always spend a certain percentage of their money to help fund real pool organizations and tours, as they have supported the WPBA in the past. (and present?)

unknownpro

onepocketchump

10-10-2005, 03:51 PM

Well, then MAYBE the BCA(Billiard Congress of AMERICA) should not run a "trade" show called the International Billiard and Home Recreation Expo. I am the LAST person on any of these forums to wrap myself in the flag. It is my contention that when our industry trade group spends most of their time trying to sell booth spaces to ping-pong table manufacturers then they are clearly telling the fans of professional pool, pro pool players, amateur pool players, mom and pop billiard businesses, pool rooms and basically everyone in billiards to go screw themselves. When they ALLOW anyone with enough money for a booth space and an associate membership to display they are telling the billiard world that the SHOW is the most important thing for the BCA and NOT the collective well being of the sport and it's participants.

The Billiard Congress of America is a JOKE. We ran a promotion on the John Boy and Billy radio show to give away a trip to the BCA Tournament. We wanted to promote our website and pool. Did we get ANY cooperation from the BCA? NOT ONE BIT - NOTHING - NOT EVEN TWO LOUSY TICKETS TO THE PRO EVENT.

In fact, they treated us, voting members by the way, as if we were just insane for asking. The billiard industry, in addition to being fairly poor as industries go, is incredibly out of touch with reality. The BCA is nothing more than a group of the larger industry companies who make insider deals to cut up the market or have vicious fights when they can't come to a deal. It is painfully clear that the BCA either is unable or does not want to GROW pool.

BCA 1997 - It is the mission of the BCA to govern and/or promote competition and recreational participation in the sport of pocket billiards by establishing and disseminating information on game rules, instruction, equipment specifications and business operations. In cooperation with the BCA recognized amateur, professional and world governing organizations that promote and sanction tournaments and league competitions, the BCA strives to increase awareness of and participation in the sport to all people. Working with all integers worldwide, the BCA performs its functions on a non-profit basis with the highest ethical standards and fair treatment of its members and the entire billiard community.

Read this for the history of the BCA - http://web.archive.org/web/19990128063433/www.bca-pool.com/history/bcahist.htm

Now the mission statement reads: "our mission is to enhance the success of our members and promote the game of billiards." Neither if which they do well in my opinion.

The opening paragraph on the website says "Making Pool Everybody's Game is Everybody's Business The BCA is the only membership organization dedicated exclusively to helping your business grow. Our vision is to achieve a united, growing, prosperous and highly regarded billiard industry through BCA leadership, and our mission is to enhance the success of our members and promote the game of billiards. As a Voting, Associate, Retail, Room Operator, Affiliate or Non-Profit Member you'll have plenty of options for maximizing your success and profitability with the BCA. Join us, as we work together to make pool everybody's game!"

So again, I ask, how does providing a venue for people to sell and buy dart boards, ping pong tables, air hockey tables and other non-pool activity equipment enhance the success of a BILLIARDS business?

The "billiard industry" as it exists today is so bogged down with the weight of it's own BULLCRAP that it cannot and will not ever be what it claims to be, which is, "governing the sport of billiards since 1948."

John Barton

vagabond

10-10-2005, 05:00 PM

i didnt mention anything about a union.

It was my misuderstanding.I stay corrected.

vagabond

10-10-2005, 05:20 PM

I disagree. The billiard industry makes billiard equipment for players and room operators. It is in their own interest to promote the game at its highest level, so that people continue to play pool, instead of golf, tennis, checkers or whatever.

unknownpro

That comes under the category of buisiness Savy/promotion.They do not necessarily have to follow that course for promotion of their product.It is voluntary.But the players do not have right to demand for it in a NON communist country like USA.
Vagabond...... likes to play devil`s advocate.I am not connected with Industry at all. :cool:

vagabond

10-10-2005, 05:24 PM

Thak u guys.I made my point.I am resting my case.
Vagabond......more devil`s advocate arguments will be flowing in your direction in the future

5aheadforpinks

10-10-2005, 05:38 PM

An Earl Strickland ACTION FIGURE! and a Jannette Lee blow up doll!

Lets sell the industry to small children, and get them hooked on pool early in life!

JAM

10-10-2005, 06:21 PM

An Earl Strickland ACTION FIGURE! and a Jannette Lee blow up doll!

Lets sell the industry to small children, and get them hooked on pool early in life!

Maybe player bobble heads! :D

Out of all the posts on this thread, I sure do like Jimmy M.'s the best:
This is the most valid point I've read in this discussion, as far as I'm concerned.

JAM

JustPlay

10-10-2005, 08:51 PM

Mike Sigel Is making 300,000 or 400,000 for the first 2 tournaments on the ITP , what a sacrifice.

Sigel may not be sacrificing any finances (Sigel is probably one of the top 5 most successful pool players outside of playing pool), but, he has convinced his close personal friend, Kevin Trudeau that professional pool and its players is worth putting his money (MILLIONS) into.

If Sigel didn't support this tour or convince KT to invest in it, do you think KT would have done this on his own without Mike Sigel?

Weather you like the IPT or don't, without Sigel & KT, professional pool, large prize payouts, a chance to get respect for the game and its professionals from the sporting public will just keep backsliding....

Etimmons, you are correct, Sigel isn't sacrificing in the way of finances, but he is lending his name to the game, reputation, his time and is trying to support the current and past pool players who are trying to make a living playing a game by soliciting corporate sponsorship in the way of KT.