APBU Bans Players

[Dr. Dissent]

Dear WPA Board Members,

For your information, after the WPA meeting, APBU has the following new policy in place effective October 12th, 2005.


Best regards,
Spencer Shiau
APBU General Secretary
APBU - Asian Pocket Billiard Union


Impose/put a ban on a player for a specific period of time:

1. The followings apply to all players in Asia.

2. Player who participates in the tournament/event that is not sanctioned by both APBU and WPA, the player will be banned by the APBU for one year.

3. In the above situation, the ban will be effective from the first day of that tournament and will be for 365 days.

4. During the ban period, the player can not play in the APBU or WPA sanctioned tournament/event.

5. During the ban period, any nomination for this banned player by the national association is not valid. If the banned player is nominated, this nation will be treated as forefeit this quota spot.

6. The banned player's name and country will be made public in the annoucements, including APBU internet info site and notices.

7. Ban by APBU will be also notified to WPA World Pool-billiard Association. WPA and its other continental federations will support and follow through the same ban notice sent from APBU.

[Celtic]

Pretty weak.

[Colin Colenso]

The APBU's main leverage is the San Miguel Asian Tour (Something they didn't want to sanction in the first place...because they weren't being offered enough money) and the World Pool Championships, which is basically a Barry Hearn Matchroom project.

They also have quite a bit of influence with local Taiwanene due to regular televised events there on Videoland run by Mr. Tu with reasonable sums in prize money.

ESPN could go it alone on the San Miguel Tour as they have previously threatened to do.

Barry Hearn may also go it alone if all the big names are withdrawn due to bans.

This could get ugly!

[nbc]

This is stupid...


nbc

[pillage6]

Can you guys expound on your statements of "weak" and "stupid"? I am sure everyone knows why you are saying these things and there are of course arguements for both sides. I figured a forum like this is to share information, not just call people names.

[vagabond]

Can you guys expound on your statements of "weak" and "stupid"? I am sure everyone knows why you are saying these things and there are of course arguements for both sides. I figured a forum like this is to share information, not just call people names.


Hi,
I did not see any name calling by those posters so far,according to our American standards.The least one can say,to be labeled as name calling,as per our American standards are `` sum b%#*h or ``your mama dresses u funny and u are ugly`.He,he,he :cool:

[onepocketchump]

Well, I can see the sanctioning issue from the WPA's perpsective but this is the first time I have ever seen a continental federation attempt to sanction tournaments on other continents. Since when do United States tournaments need Asian sanctioning. And furthermore, all the US tournaments don't get WPA sanctioning either and WPA players regularly play in them.

Here comes petty bullshit politics. Well screw them. I have never seen or heard of one cent of the sanctioning money that the WPA collects going to fund either larger tournaments or the promotion of billiards in the USA.

Has the WPA or the APBU ever tried to get ESPN to carry their tournaments in the USA? Are the Asian tours open to Americans like EVERY U.S. Tournament is open to all players of all nationalities?

This is really weak.

John

[Sweet Marissa]

That's pretty asinine, and sounds like playground extortion towards both Trudeau and WPA's players...

"If you don't give us $150,000, you can't have our players."

"If you play on Kevin's tour, you're banned from ours."

Btw, Trudeau is already on the record saying he doesn't care what other tours the IPT players compete on. I hope Niels and others don't cave in to this strong-arming by the WPA.

[Travis Bickle]

What a slimy little shakedown try. Here's hoping the Asian players ignore this extortion attempt, play the IPT or wherever, and paint the APBU into a corner. When everybody's "banned" they'll rethink their position real quick.

[Black-Balled]

Can you guys expound on your statements of "weak" and "stupid"? I am sure everyone knows why you are saying these things and there are of course arguements for both sides. I figured a forum like this is to share information, not just call people names.
Big dummies!

BTW- You tell 'em, Travis! YOu are a smart Bickle.

[dogginda9]

Say for instance, all of the top Philipino players got together and said they were going to play on the IPT tour anyways. Would that be enough pressure on the APBU to back off? Or would they need all of the top oriental players as well? Just wondering.

[JAM]

Personally speaking, this "ban" enhances my horse's chances to advance in the IPT Tour. ;)

Speaking as a pool enthusiast with a passion for the game/sport, I think it stinks. :mad:

Pool politics has been the stumbling block for many a pool player yesterday, today, and, according to this recent announcement, tomorrow. :eek:

Pool players are caught in the middle. Those in authority are enjoying six-figure salaries, and yet they think it prudent to put a "ban" on the players of this game/sport if they compete in a $13-million-added IPT Tour. Whose interests are they looking out for? It ain't the players. :(

To play or not to play, that is a question some players must decide, thanks to the WPA and APBU. Gee, some Asian tours are restricted by nationality and ban Americans and European players, anyway. Yet, here in America, we open our tournaments to players of every creed, nationality, and color.

Long live the IPT, and bravo to Kevin Trudeau for making it happen. NEVER before has there been this kind of investment in the game/sport, and it is exactly the kickstart that has been sorely needed for many a year. I can't wait to get to Orlando and see it unfold. This is truly history in the making.

JAM

[T411]

Personally speaking, this "ban" enhances my horse's chances to advance in the IPT Tour. ;)

Speaking as a pool enthusiast with a passion for the game/sport, I think it stinks. :mad:

Pool politics has been the stumbling block for many a pool player yesterday, today, and, according to this recent announcement, tomorrow. :eek:

Pool players are caught in the middle. Those in authority are enjoying six-figure salaries, and yet they think it prudent to put a "ban" on the players of this game/sport if they compete in a $13-million-added IPT Tour. Whose interests are they looking out for? It ain't the players. :(

To play or not to play, that is a question some players must decide, thanks to the WPA and APBU. Gee, some Asian tours are restricted by nationality and ban Americans and European players, anyway. Yet, here in America, we open our tournaments to players of every creed, nationality, and color.

Long live the IPT, and bravo to Kevin Trudeau for making it happen. NEVER before has there been this kind of investment in the game/sport, and it is exactly the kickstart that has been sorely needed for many a year. I can't wait to get to Orlando and see it unfold. This is truly history in the making.

JAM

TAP, TAP,TAP

[shoutout33]

Ok. So what happens when the IPT includes the Asian tour (or is it just a tourney...) in 2007? What will they do then? As much interest as this tour has sparked internationally, it's going to be worse when the include the international tours/tourneys. What are they thinking? :confused:

There is an IPT tourney every other month almost, which would still leave room for the big names to play at the WPA tourneys. And even if it didn't, if the big names are on the IPT tour, that means that it would open the doors for new talent to make their mark on that level of competition. Think about it. From a baseball standpoint, we have the majors and semi-pro (AAA, AA, etc.). Why can't they let it this thing go. :o

What I really don't like, is that they said that they'll publicly announce the person and the country they are representing as well. If you remember some years back with the World Cup, one player was killed by his country men for losing a pivital game. Now, I'm not saying it would go that far, but from what people tell me about Taiwan, pool is like there national past time, if not one of them. This not good at all. :mad: :(

[9_Ball_King]

All smart players will think "FU** the ban -- I have a chance to make real money on the IPT.........let me see......on one hand I can appease the WPA/WPBU and be a good boy and not participate (i.e. not have a chance to earn any decent money) OR I could say to hell with the ban and participate on the IPT (and have a chance to earn LIFE CHANGING money)........hmmm what is one to do??????? :eek:

[sniper]

I have never seen or heard of one cent of the sanctioning money that the WPA collects going to fund either larger tournaments or the promotion of billiards in the USA.


John


The sanctioning money the WPA collects goes straight into their tournaments. The WPA World Eight Ball Championships would be a good example.

I really don't expect this ban to last over the long term, as soon as the IPT proves that it is going to survive and be here to stay over the long term the top Asian players will see everyone else getting six figure paydays and jump ship telling the APBU where to go.

[Colin Colenso]

Personally speaking, this "ban" enhances my horse's chances to advance in the IPT Tour. ;)

Speaking as a pool enthusiast with a passion for the game/sport, I think it stinks. :mad:

Pool politics has been the stumbling block for many a pool player yesterday, today, and, according to this recent announcement, tomorrow. :eek:

Pool players are caught in the middle. Those in authority are enjoying six-figure salaries, and yet they think it prudent to put a "ban" on the players of this game/sport if they compete in a $13-million-added IPT Tour. Whose interests are they looking out for? It ain't the players. :(

To play or not to play, that is a question some players must decide, thanks to the WPA and APBU. Gee, some Asian tours are restricted by nationality and ban Americans and European players, anyway. Yet, here in America, we open our tournaments to players of every creed, nationality, and color.

Long live the IPT, and bravo to Kevin Trudeau for making it happen. NEVER before has there been this kind of investment in the game/sport, and it is exactly the kickstart that has been sorely needed for many a year. I can't wait to get to Orlando and see it unfold. This is truly history in the making.

JAM
Well said Jam!

Now imagine if the World Confederation of Billiard Sports, the committee that legitimises the WPA, being a member of the IOC had actually finagled its way into the Olympic Games. They would be much more than the toothless tiger they currently are and they would probably be able to put a stop to the IPT.

This is why purely Olympic sports are low money, dead sports and the example of their ban here is one of the reasons I have opposed the push for billiard sports into the olympics for some time. The others main ones being that they are non-profit, centralised bureacracies and politically influenced through government grants to their members. Not to mention monopolistic in the true sense of that word.

Good luck to your horse! I'm looking forward to meeting you both in Orlando :)

[jjinfla]

I wonder who Dr. Dissent is - nice first post.

And the WPA is good for pool?

It seems to me that all they are doing is telling their top players, the ones who were selected by the IPT, to take a year's vacation from playing in WPA events and go play in the IPT. Where they have a chance to earn a $200,000 payday. In fact several of them.

Seems like an easy choice to me. But then I don't know anything about the WPA and how big their tournaments are. And I really don't care to learn about them either.

And how did the WPA arrive at that $150,000 figure? Sure sounds like extortion to me.

I agree with KT who in effect told them to go pound sand.

I think there are about 2,000 people who are hoping the Asians agree with the WPA and don't show up. Then they might be selected as their replacements.

[Dr. Dissent]

And how did the WPA arrive at that $150,000 figure? Sure sounds like extortion to me.

It is not extortion.

$150,000 is 5 percent of the 3 million dollars Kevin Trudeau promissed for one event. For each event, the 5% would be applied.

Normal sanctioning fees are 5 percent of the added money. Sometimes you see tournaments indicating $10,000 or $15,000 added money. For $10,000 the sanctioning fees would be $500; for $15,000 the fee is $ 750.00.

Barry Behrman (recent US Open Tournament) should have paid $3,600 sanctioning fee to the WPA. This amount (paid) based on the $72,000 added money because of the full field of 256 players.







.

[Dr. Dissent]

All smart players will think "FU** the ban

Easy to say than to do. APBU players will have to weigh the possible consequences. If they are making a good living with their regional tournaments and other world events, then they might think of not participating with the IPT. If on the other hand they cannot support themselves with their winnings, it may be wise to take a risk and play the IPT.

[Colin Colenso]

It is not extortion.

$150,000 is 5 percent of the 3 million dollars Kevin Trudeau promissed for one event. For each event, the 5% would be applied.

Normal sanctioning fees are 5 percent of the added money. Sometimes you see tournaments indicating $10,000 or $15,000 added money. For $10,000 the sanctioning fees would be $500; for $15,000 the fee is $ 750.00.

Barry Behrman (recent US Open Tournament) should have paid $3,600 sanctioning fee to the WPA. This amount (paid) based on the $72,000 added money because of the full field of 256 players.

I agree, it's not extortion, it's simply asking too much for what is given in return.

Did the WPA offer attractive documentation of the benefits they deliver, as a normal business would? No, they demanded a price combined with a threat, as government type bureaucracies do. They prefer force over service. Little surprise KT took a backstep, quoting them as mafia like.

Does the WPA provide media coverage, PR expertise, channels of exposure? Certainly not in a professional or highly valuable sense. Compare this to a small event company, who has staff dedicated to media, PR, design etc. WPA is a committee, that implements very little. They scratch backs and cash in on the operators that actually organize and promote events.

If they come in with the IPT, they will seek to influence the format, title naming, event dates and all with lengthy time delays I suspect. The last this the IPT needs with so much to accomplish in a short time. Perhaps they'll demand equivalent women's, seniors, juniors, trickshots and wheelchair events to more fairly (politically correctly) distribute the moneys.

They may end up getting their sanctioning at reduced fees, just to save face, but KT holds the upper card in negotiation while his events offer many multiples in potential earnings than WPA sanctioned events around the world have to offer.

KT is adding close to 9 million this next year. All WPA sanctioned events probably total around 1 million. If they keep their 5% demand going, that is around US$450,000 in sanctioning fees. With this money alone he could payroll the top 10 players in the world and turn the WPA into a B grade league, as it will end up being if they try to ban all IPT members from the 9-Ball World Championships anyway.

Now if the WPA asks 50-100k per year, and doesn't interfere too much, then maybe a compromise will be made.

Just thinking aloud. I certainly want to see the existing tournaments continue and thrive if possible.

[Sweet Marissa]

It is not extortion.

$150,000 is 5 percent of the 3 million dollars Kevin Trudeau promissed for one event. For each event, the 5% would be applied.

Normal sanctioning fees are 5 percent of the added money. Sometimes you see tournaments indicating $10,000 or $15,000 added money. For $10,000 the sanctioning fees would be $500; for $15,000 the fee is $ 750.00.

Barry Behrman (recent US Open Tournament) should have paid $3,600 sanctioning fee to the WPA. This amount (paid) based on the $72,000 added money because of the full field of 256 players.
You say Barry should have paid... Does that mean the US Open wasn't santioned by the WPA? If not, then how is it that its players competed and weren't penalised? What does becoming sanctioned by the WPA do for its players anyway? And who are they to be doing so?

[Colin Colenso]

Easy to say than to do. APBU players will have to weigh the possible consequences. If they are making a good living with their regional tournaments and other world events, then they might think of not participating with the IPT. If on the other hand they cannot support themselves with their winnings, it may be wise to take a risk and play the IPT.
You're quite right Dr. Dissent.

This all comes down to supply and demand and future expectation. The dynamics of the situation are interesting, if not explosive.

My hope is that pool will gain greater exposure and appreciation worldwide through the IPT and that this will lead to greater opportunities for pool players worldwide once the power struggles regain some balance.

I know others think this is highly dangerous, and it may be for a portion of the status quo, but I believe it offers more positives than negatives. Time will tell.

[wvroadrunner]

Personally speaking, this "ban" enhances my horse's chances to advance in the IPT Tour. ;)

Speaking as a pool enthusiast with a passion for the game/sport, I think it stinks. :mad:

Pool politics has been the stumbling block for many a pool player yesterday, today, and, according to this recent announcement, tomorrow. :eek:

Pool players are caught in the middle. Those in authority are enjoying six-figure salaries, and yet they think it prudent to put a "ban" on the players of this game/sport if they compete in a $13-million-added IPT Tour. Whose interests are they looking out for? It ain't the players. :(

To play or not to play, that is a question some players must decide, thanks to the WPA and APBU. Gee, some Asian tours are restricted by nationality and ban Americans and European players, anyway. Yet, here in America, we open our tournaments to players of every creed, nationality, and color.

Long live the IPT, and bravo to Kevin Trudeau for making it happen. NEVER before has there been this kind of investment in the game/sport, and it is exactly the kickstart that has been sorely needed for many a year. I can't wait to get to Orlando and see it unfold. This is truly history in the making.

JAM


JAM

where did you get 13 million? i only see 8 on the 2006 schedule
did i miss something?

bob

[Mike Templeton]

They may end up getting their sanctioning at reduced fees, just to save face, but KT holds the upper card in negotiation while his events offer many multiples in potential earnings than WPA sanctioned events around the world have to offer.

KT is adding close to 9 million this next year. All WPA sanctioned events probably total around 1 million. If they keep their 5% demand going, that is around US$450,000 in sanctioning fees. With this money alone he could payroll the top 10 players in the world and turn the WPA into a B grade league, as it will end up being if they try to ban all IPT members from the 9-Ball World Championships anyway.


Like him or not, Kevin Tudeau doesn't seem the type to be bullied around. I don't see him giving in to demands of Asian tours when he has made it clear that he is also promoting the Old Guard of players here in the US.

It's sad for the Asian players who have to decide, but in the scheme of the IPT, I don't think it will make a big difference to KT or the players who play here.

Mike

[Timberly]

At least he picked a fitting name... Dr. Dissent

Definition of dissension...

Main Entry: dis·sen·sion
Variant(s): also dis·sen·tion /di-'sen(t)-sh&n/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin dissension-, dissensio, from dissentire
: DISAGREEMENT; especially : partisan and contentious quarreling

By banning players from the IPT, you're ultimately causing dessension in the pool world, which is EXACTLY what it doesn't need. There's been enough quarreling between tours & sanctioning bodies, & anything else to do with pool. All these people causing dessension in the pool world are the people getting fat paychecks off the backs of the struggling pool players. F the WPA & their ban... for once someone is going to let the pool player make the money they earn, instead of taking money from the player to fill the "Gods of the sanctioning bodies" pockets. :rolleyes:

By the way Dr. Dissent, I didn't happen to catch your name. What is the reason behind hiding behind a screen name?

[onepocketchump]

It is not extortion.

$150,000 is 5 percent of the 3 million dollars Kevin Trudeau promissed for one event. For each event, the 5% would be applied.

Normal sanctioning fees are 5 percent of the added money. Sometimes you see tournaments indicating $10,000 or $15,000 added money. For $10,000 the sanctioning fees would be $500; for $15,000 the fee is $ 750.00.

Barry Behrman (recent US Open Tournament) should have paid $3,600 sanctioning fee to the WPA. This amount (paid) based on the $72,000 added money because of the full field of 256 players..


You are right, it's extortion if non-payment would have any serious consequences. At this stage there is nothing that the WPA can offer to Kevin Trudeau to enhance his tour. This just shows that the WPA is in effect powerless and inneffectual. The WPA and the APBU are just going to be without some of their better players for a long time. And they will see that any player who feels like they are a serious contender for the IPT tour will forgo the WPA/APBU tournaments for the IPT.

Instead of embracing the IPT and trying to figure out a way to enhance the experience the WPA is showing that it is being confrontatonal instead.

The truth is that the WPA would have gladly sold out their players if Kevin had paid up. They weren't going to insist that the IPT rules be the same as the WPA rules for 8-ball. They weren't concerned about the inclusion of the best players from each country, or what the feeder system would be, they weren't concerned about the women and juniors, just the money.

So, no, it's not extortion, it's begging with the pathetic part being that the only ones the WPA can hurt is the players, the ones they are supposed to be protecting.

John

[onepocketchump]

I agree, it's not extortion, it's simply asking too much for what is given in return.

Did the WPA offer attractive documentation of the benefits they deliver, as a normal business would? No, they demanded a price combined with a threat, as government type bureaucracies do. They prefer force over service. Little surprise KT took a backstep, quoting them as mafia like.

Does the WPA provide media coverage, PR expertise, channels of exposure? Certainly not in a professional or highly valuable sense. Compare this to a small event company, who has staff dedicated to media, PR, design etc. WPA is a committee, that implements very little. They scratch backs and cash in on the operators that actually organize and promote events.

If they come in with the IPT, they will seek to influence the format, title naming, event dates and all with lengthy time delays I suspect. The last this the IPT needs with so much to accomplish in a short time. Perhaps they'll demand equivalent women's, seniors, juniors, trickshots and wheelchair events to more fairly (politically correctly) distribute the moneys.

They may end up getting their sanctioning at reduced fees, just to save face, but KT holds the upper card in negotiation while his events offer many multiples in potential earnings than WPA sanctioned events around the world have to offer.

KT is adding close to 9 million this next year. All WPA sanctioned events probably total around 1 million. If they keep their 5% demand going, that is around US$450,000 in sanctioning fees. With this money alone he could payroll the top 10 players in the world and turn the WPA into a B grade league, as it will end up being if they try to ban all IPT members from the 9-Ball World Championships anyway.

Now if the WPA asks 50-100k per year, and doesn't interfere too much, then maybe a compromise will be made.

Just thinking aloud. I certainly want to see the existing tournaments continue and thrive if possible.

Does anyone care to BET that Barry Hearn won't stand for the top name draws being banned from HIS World Championship? Anyone want to bet their V-Cash that Efren and the rest of the asian crew who play in the IPT also play in the WC in 2006?

Anyone care to bet that the San Miguel tour won't ban the top stars either? I bet they will tell the APBU to go elsewhere.

John

[Celtic]

It's sad for the Asian players who have to decide, but in the scheme of the IPT, I don't think it will make a big difference to KT or the players who play here.


On the other hand the Asian pool community has already proved itself to be isolationist in their approach of disallowing any non-asian players to play on the San Miguel tour and running a great deal of localized events with very few open events despite the strong surges the sport has been seeing in that area of the world. I did not see the Asian players piping up on the unfairness of them being able to play in any event on any tour in the USA and yet having their special tour allowing only them to play in it. Now the same tour that protected their interests and the same isolationist approach is comming back to bite them in the ass.

The WPA and APBU should look really close at the World Curling Tour and their feud with the Briar in Canada. This was a similar thing, the pro's got a new tour with more money and more opportunity and the Briar decided to play hardball and flat out told the World Curling Tour members if they played on the tour they would not be eligable to play in the Briar. Suffice to say most of the top teams went on to play on the pro tour, the Briar's field of talent got decimated and it was relegated to almost amature status in the eyes of the fans. They finally dropped the ban for thier own interests but they will forever be marked for the dumb move they made and the record books will always show that few years where the talent pool dropped off. The Briar will never quite have the status it would have had if it had simply let the World Curling Tour exist and still let the top players compete. It is a hard road back when you play this kind of move and get owned. They better watch themselves lest the world 9-ball championships suddenly becomes nothing more then a localized Asian tournament with the top Taiwanese players playing against the shortstops from every other country in the world since all the elite of the other countries are playing on the IPT. And give it a year or two of IPT success and they can expect to lose the top Taiwan players as well and the World 9-ball Championships will go the way of the Brair and be a amature competition of second rate players that cannot make the IPT tour.

This is a BAD move on the WPA's part. They have little to gain and ALOT to lose playing this card.

[sjm]

Equal access to all comers in competition is not the Asian way, so the quality of the Asian pro pool product is entirely contingent on continual access to Asia's biggest stars. The continued emergence and success of the San Miguel Tour has resulted in a reduced presence of the top Asian players in America, which, I suspect, is just how WPA/APBU likes it. Imagine how much they must have hated it when Alex, Jose, and Francisco came 1-2-3 in the recently completed US Open!

One can fully understand why WPA/APBU is taking these steps, as they don't want to have to compete for the services of Asia's top players, whose services they had begun to take for granted. I also suspect that they feel that, in the WPC, they have the only truly comprehensive field of elite international players on the world pool calendar, and they don't want to see that change.

That they would penalize the very stars that have vitalized the San Miguel Tour for playing in an IPT event is disgraceful, but by no means surprising. The business motives of WPA/APBU are clear, but their actions have been made necessary by their own monopolistic and exclusionary business practices.

In short, this is all very disheartening.

[Sweet Marissa]

posts
John,

Tap Tap Tap towards both your posts!!

[trophycue]

Can you guys expound on your statements of "weak" and "stupid"? I am sure everyone knows why you are saying these things and there are of course arguements for both sides. I figured a forum like this is to share information, not just call people names.
that was am awful short response from Celtic...............he is ussually one LONGGGGGGGGGGGG!! winded son of a *****...........now your chiding him on!!!!!!!!!!!............relax celtic , I'm just pullin your leg, Iam rite between toronto and montreal...........if your comin thru some day, lemee know...........cheers!

[Nostroke]

The WPA and APBU should look really close at the World Curling Tour and their feud with the Briar in Canada. This was a similar thing, the pro's got a new tour with more money and more opportunity and the Briar decided to play hardball and flat out told the World Curling Tour members if they played on the tour they would not be eligable to play in the Briar. Suffice to say most of the top teams went on to play on the pro tour, the Briar's field of talent got decimated and it was relegated to almost amature status in the eyes of the fans. They finally dropped the ban for thier own interests but they will forever be marked for the dumb move they made and the record books will always show that few years where the talent pool dropped off. The Briar will never quite have the status it would have had if it had simply let the World Curling Tour exist and still let the top players compete. It is a hard road back when you play this kind of move and get owned. They better watch themselves lest the world 9-ball championships suddenly becomes nothing more then a localized Asian tournament with the top Taiwanese players playing against the shortstops from every other country in the world since all the elite of the other countries are playing on the IPT. And give it a year or two of IPT success and they can expect to lose the top Taiwan players as well and the World 9-ball Championships will go the way of the Brair and be a amature competition of second rate players that cannot make the IPT tour.

This is a BAD move on the WPA's part. They have little to gain and ALOT to lose playing this card.


World Curling Tour? OMG! Tell me they have huge Corporate sponsorship and all their players are rich.

[Rich R.]

You say Barry should have paid... Does that mean the US Open wasn't santioned by the WPA?
Press releases and advertisement for the U.S. Open indicated that the tournament was sanctioned by the WPA and the UPA. We must assume that all appropriate fees were paid.

[berry]

There are two things that are standing for the WPA:

1: the sanction fee is there to support pool world wide, not only one tournament with big bucks but also Wheelchair pool or kids pool. This is very importuned for the sport and believe me the sport can't survive with KT way. Dividing the million per tournament among the top 50 players of the world is nice BUT there are millions of other players.

2: Sources tell me that the WPA gave KT an offer for a free sanction by the WPA but he declined that offer because he doesn't recognize any other organization. Not even the WPA that have taken care of all the players for the last 23 years.
I know that if KT would like to organize the biggest tournament in the world and would work together with the WPA thing would be very good for all players. But KT decided to ignore them and organize a World Pool Championship 8-ball with 2 players.......

[Dr. Dissent]

Well, I can see the sanctioning issue from the WPA's perpsective but this is the first time I have ever seen a continental federation attempt to sanction tournaments on other continents. Since when do United States tournaments need Asian sanctioning. And furthermore, all the US tournaments don't get WPA sanctioning either and WPA players regularly play in them.

Here comes petty bullshit politics. Well screw them. I have never seen or heard of one cent of the sanctioning money that the WPA collects going to fund either larger tournaments or the promotion of billiards in the USA.

Has the WPA or the APBU ever tried to get ESPN to carry their tournaments in the USA? Are the Asian tours open to Americans like EVERY U.S. Tournament is open to all players of all nationalities?

This is really weak.

John

John, the APBU is saying that they want all other WPA member federations to abide by the APBU's ban. If any of the banned (APBU) players are in any of the WPA sanctioned tournaments including the U.S., South America, Europe, Africa, Asia, etc., they tournament directors should not let the banned players participate in the event.

Let's just say that if Efren Reyes, Bustamante, and Manalo decide to play in the next IPT tournament, and the APBU does follow with a ban, these players should not be able to participate in next year's World Pool Championships since the ban would be effective for one year and the World Championships is normally held in July.

The US Open, normally held in September would have to leave these players out if Mr. Berhman decides to obtain WPA Sanctioning again.

[Dr. Dissent]

Does anyone care to BET that Barry Hearn won't stand for the top name draws being banned from HIS World Championship? Anyone want to bet their V-Cash that Efren and the rest of the asian crew who play in the IPT also play in the WC in 2006?

Anyone care to bet that the San Miguel tour won't ban the top stars either? I bet they will tell the APBU to go elsewhere.

John

John:

Barry Hearns owns the WPC, Mosconi Cup, etc. He can decide who will play in his events by giving out wild cards, etc. When Mr. Strickland was banned from the UPA, Mr. Hearn put him in charge of the USA Team, and the UPA had to shut-up and let the USA selected play.

If the APBU does put a ban on the Filipino Contingent, I am certain that Mr. Hearn would care less and let them play anyway.

Reyes and gang would play in the San Miguel Tour regardless of the ban, if San Miguel is not paying sanctioning dues to the APBU.

[jjinfla]

As good as Bustamante and Reyes are they are getting up in age and are not at their peak anymore. Yet they both have a pretty good chance to do very well in the IPT. If they spend 2006 playing in the IPT will their earnings surpass what they could possibly earn with the WPA? If they are banned by the WPA will that affect the contracts they have with their sponsors? Will they lose popularity with their home country fans?

Gee. I wish I had those problems and decisions to make.

[onepocketchump]

John, the APBU is saying that they want all other WPA member federations to abide by the APBU's ban. If any of the banned (APBU) players are in any of the WPA sanctioned tournaments including the U.S., South America, Europe, Africa, Asia, etc., they tournament directors should not let the banned players participate in the event.

Let's just say that if Efren Reyes, Bustamante, and Manalo decide to play in the next IPT tournament, and the APBU does follow with a ban, these players should not be able to participate in next year's World Pool Championships since the ban would be effective for one year and the World Championships is normally held in July.

The US Open, normally held in September would have to leave these players out if Mr. Berhman decides to obtain WPA Sanctioning again.


I understand that. What the APBU is effectively saying is that they reserve the right to determine when and where their players can play. In other words they want to exercise complete control over Asian pool players without providing the same platform for those players to earn a living commensurate with their skill levels.

The truth is that Barry Behrman, Barry Hearn, The UPA, Diamond Billiards, and all the other promoters in the USA and around the globe are NOT going to refuse to allow Efren Reyes to play in their tournaments. They will gladly forgo WPA sanctioning by knowing that they will still have full and willing participation.

The WPA and it's continental organizations have had 20 years to grow into the kind of organization that actually does wield the power to provide a stable platform for pool worldwide. They failed. Pool is more fragmented than ever before. Does the APA, VNEA, BCA-League, TAP, APPA, or any local league system have WPA sanctioning? Does any local or regional tournament have BCA or WPA sanctioning? The WPA has had 20 years put a grassroots funding method in place to make it the legitimate governing body of pool. They failed, they have no money, they have no power. It is no wonder that they are not taken seriously by Kevin Trudeau.

IF the WPA had done their job then Mike Sigel would not have retired and lamented the state of "professional pool" to Kevin. Why do think that Kevin is using pool for this venture and not golf. Why is he not creating a rival golf tour with rules from 1919 that 'go back to the days of real golf'? Because golf is ESTABLISHED worldwide and controlled BY strong organzations that have the POWER to dictate to promoters and advertisers how tournaments shall be run. That is a governing body, not a beggar boy.

John

[onepocketchump]

John:

Barry Hearns owns the WPC, Mosconi Cup, etc. He can decide who will play in his events by giving out wild cards, etc. When Mr. Strickland was banned from the UPA, Mr. Hearn put him in charge of the USA Team, and the UPA had to shut-up and let the USA selected play.

If the APBU does put a ban on the Filipino Contingent, I am certain that Mr. Hearn would care less and let them play anyway.

Reyes and gang would play in the San Miguel Tour regardless of the ban, if San Miguel is not paying sanctioning dues to the APBU.


How is it that Barry "owns" the WPC? You see, that is the issue right there! The WPA sold out on the WPC for the right amount of money. Why didn't they make it so that Barry had to absorb the costs of running a women's and juniors WPC with the same format as the men?

The APBU is effectively using the lesser players as hostages to attempt to force the stars and the promoters to aquiesce.

John

[onepocketchump]

There are two things that are standing for the WPA:

1: the sanction fee is there to support pool world wide, not only one tournament with big bucks but also Wheelchair pool or kids pool. This is very importuned for the sport and believe me the sport can't survive with KT way. Dividing the million per tournament among the top 50 players of the world is nice BUT there are millions of other players.

BS. Please provide proof of any tournaments/organizations in the United States which have received any money FROM the WPA. The WPA sold out the men's World Championships without doing anything for the Women and Juniors.

2: Sources tell me that the WPA gave KT an offer for a free sanction by the WPA but he declined that offer because he doesn't recognize any other organization. Not even the WPA that have taken care of all the players for the last 23 years.
I know that if KT would like to organize the biggest tournament in the world and would work together with the WPA thing would be very good for all players. But KT decided to ignore them and organize a World Pool Championship 8-ball with 2 players.......

If so then why did the WPA then ask for $150,000? Did they feel that KT would recognize them if they put a price tag on the sanctioning. The hard, cold truth is that KT does not NEED WPA sanctioning. If he did then he would of paid the $150,000 without blinking. But he knows who is who in the pool world and knows who he needs to deal with and who he does not. That is the failure of the WPA and the BCA.

John

[Dr. Dissent]

As good as Bustamante and Reyes are they are getting up in age and are not at their peak anymore. Yet they both have a pretty good chance to do very well in the IPT. If they spend 2006 playing in the IPT will their earnings surpass what they could possibly earn with the WPA? If they are banned by the WPA will that affect the contracts they have with their sponsors? Will they lose popularity with their home country fans?

Gee. I wish I had those problems and decisions to make.

Reyes, Bustamante, Alex, Manalo, should have no problems deciding, but other Filipino players would have to think about it.

Let's take another example, this time the CPB (Confederation Panamerica of Billiards (CPB) - Region: South America. Ernesto Dominguez and Morro Paez belong to this region. These two could live with a ban by the CPB because the CPB does not promote money tournaments in the Region. Dominguez and Paez make their living in the US but what about the other South American players selected by the IPT?

Acosta, Gonzalez, Calderon, Franken, Carvajal. I do not recognize these names. I don't think they have played in the U.S. I guess Acosta made it to the WPC a few years ago but that is it. Franken was in last year's World 8 Ball Championship that Efren Reyes won but I don't know his game. Would these players be willing to risk a ban from the CPB? Are they happy with the CPB or are they ready to let go and risk playing for the IPT. Only these players know.

The BCA is inoperative in the USA. I guess they don't have players to impose a ban to, and if they had, I don't think the US players would care much about it.

We dont know what the EPBF (European Pocket Billiard Federation), AAPA (All Africa Pool Association) or what the Oceania Pocket Billiard Association (OPBA) players will do but one thing is for sure. Anyone who is not a top player in the World, would have to seriously think about what the ban could do to them.

It is not that simple or easy for some players........

[Dr. Dissent]

At least he picked a fitting name... Dr. Dissent

Thank you Kimberly, it was my intention to pick a fitting name.

Definition of dissension...

Main Entry: dis·sen·sion
Variant(s): also dis·sen·tion /di-'sen(t)-sh&n/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin dissension-, dissensio, from dissentire
: DISAGREEMENT; especially : partisan and contentious quarreling

Other Definitions:

1. To differ in belief or opinion: disagree.
2. To reject the doctrines and forms of an established church.
3. The rendering of a minority opinion in the decision of a law case.
4. Religious nonconformity.

If we take the "church" out of these definitions and replace the word with WPA or APBU, you will see why I am dessenting.

By the way Dr. Dissent, I didn't happen to catch your name. What is the reason behind hiding behind a screen name?

My name is Dissent, Dr. Dissent. Do you get my drift?.....

[JAM]

...When Mr. Strickland was banned from the UPA....

Sorry to interrupt this nice discourse about the pros and cons of WPA sanctioning, but just for the record, Earl Strickland was NOT banned from the UPA. He quit due to reasons which are well known within the American pool community.

Carry on, if you must, Dr. Dissent, but you're barking up the wrong tree on this forum, unless you enjoying being in the minority party! :p

LONG LIVE THE IPT!

JAM

[Snapshot9]

That when someone that 'thinks outside the box' and
can support their ideas would cause waves within
disjointed Pool community organizations. How dare you
defy us and our procedures? Except none of them has
enough power to wield to prevent it, try as they may.
Gosh, those other organizations might really have to go
work, change, and start thinking about the players then.
I hope the IPT succeeds because our sport has been desperate
for a long time for better promotion, better image, and
more recognition in the public's eye. Heck, KT might even
end up being responsible for many youth programs sprouting
up, getting out sport into the Olympics, and putting big
dreams again into the heads of many a Pool player.

In my opinion, our sport is going to end being better in
the long run, whether the IPT is a success or not, hopefully
it is though.

[Gabber]

Why do think that Kevin is using pool for this venture and not golf.
John
Like you siad- he wouldnt have a tournament with any top players!
Or maybe its because he only has to flash a few $$s around and everyone wants to jump on the gravy train so badly, they are even prepared to put all their faith in a snake oil salesman, who up till now has done diddely squat for the game.

Berry said,
"Sources tell me that the WPA gave KT an offer for a free sanction by the WPA but he declined that offer because he doesn't recognize any other organization. "

It must be pretty obvious by now that KT wants to divide the pool world. IMO, he wants to force a split. If the rest of the pool world decides to ban all IPT players from their tournys, those players will be the mercy of KT!
They wont be able to play anywhere else!
He could cut the payouts by 50% and they wouldnt be able to do anything about it!
He could hold the next meeting at the North Pole and disqualify all those who didnt attend!
He could call all the Euros faggots and insist they wear pink tutus when playing.


The list is endless.......................

For the WPA to be able to promote pool around the world, they need sponsers and to attract sponsers, they need to be able to sell their tournaments. They need the top players. Their job is to avoid tournaments conflicting with each other.

What would be your reaction if KT decided to hold a tourny at the same time as the US Open. Would you see that as being good for pool?
What would happen to the IPT players who choose [ out of loyalty] to play Barry's tourny?
Make no mistake about it, they would be out of the IPT.

Think about it.

Gabber

[DaveK]

World Curling Tour? OMG! Tell me they have huge Corporate sponsorship and all their players are rich.

I was watching a late-season tournament final last spring, I'm not sure what 'tour'. The commentators said that one of the (4 person) teams had won about $400K to that point, and they stood to win the $75K first prize money in that one. Top team members can make $100K in the 3 or 4 month season, enough that lots quit their jobs or make arrangements for a leave of absence for a few months. Of course not all the players are rich, but it pays well if you are good. Moderate professional curlers would make more than the best Canadian pool pros. Yes, there are major corporate sponsors in curling, and lots of television coverage.

The best curlers are also household names in Canada. You must realize what status the game enjoys here in Canada. Every small town, and we have many small towns, has a curling rink. They build it right after they finish the hockey rink :D A few of these small towns may have pool halls.

Several years ago I was on a sales call with a very nice fellow from Winnipeg. I commented on the number of good curlers that his firm employed. He replied "ya, but my wife has something none of them have ... an Olympic gold medal".

Dave

[jjinfla]

If, If, If If. So many If's.

So negative, so pessamistic. How do you get through each day.

Trying to divide the pool world. Laughable

Conflict with the US Open. Don't think so according to the 2006 IPT schedule. You are thinking of the UPA. (Couldn't resist)

So far the IPT has held one event. I think the participants liked it. I think the spectators liked it.

Nov 30th will be the second event. Let's see what the 43 (plus Mike) participants think of that event. Let's see what the spectators think of it.

Pool players will go play wherever they think they can make money. They really do not care who is running the event or what it is called. Their loyalty is strictly to Benjamin. With a few exceptions. A few men and most of the women.

So far everything I see or hear about the IPT seems to be positive and what they say is happening. Their website is good. I had no problem talking to a real person when I ordered tickets for Orlando. I am looking forward to seeing a bunch of celebrities - both on the tables and in the spectator seats. Just follow the poparatzi (sp).

And why not do it in golf? How ridiculous. You finish 100 in the PGA and you win close to $100,000. And make a million in sponsorships.

[Gabber]

If, If, If If. So many If's.thats my whole point!

So negative, so pessamistic. How do you get through each day.Who knows!

Trying to divide the pool world. LaughableYou think so?

Conflict with the US Open. Don't think so according to the 2006 IPT schedule. You are thinking of the UPA. (Couldn't resist)What if he does? What if he changes the schedule?

So far the IPT has held one event. You call that an event? I think the participants liked it. Yeah- BOTH of them. LMAO I think the spectators liked it.So you dont know for sure?

Nov 30th will be the second event. It might be an event, but its not a normal tounry! Let's see what the 43 (plus Mike) participants think of that event. Let's see what the spectators think of it.

Pool players will go play wherever they think they can make money. Exactly! The whole problem with US pro pool has been that the players have NEVER been united! They really do not care who is running the event or what it is called. Their loyalty is strictly to Benjamin. With a few exceptions. A few men and most of the women.

So far everything I see or hear about the IPT seems to be positive and what they say is happening. You are basing this opinion on chit-chat and the massive INFOMERCIAL that has been running on the web- ESPECIALLY on this forum! Their website is good. I had no problem talking to a real person when I ordered tickets for Orlando. A multi-million enterprise with a supposedly massive budget is selling tickets to an event , that hasnt even been publicised, before they have even confirmed the venue!
Have they ever said on that website how many tickets are available? I am looking forward to seeing a bunch of celebrities - both on the tables and in the spectator seats. Just follow the poparatzi (sp).

And why not do it in golf? How ridiculous. You finish 100 in the PGA and you win close to $100,000. And make a million in sponsorships.In golf, you cant buy the whole tour by flashing a wad of cash and making promises! Especially when you have a history of of making false promises/claims. He hasnt been BANNED from TV for nothing you know!
All I,m saying is, that based on the history of KT, we should doubt his intentions until he has proved otherwise.

Gabber

[straybullet]

Berry said,
"Sources tell me that the WPA gave KT an offer for a free sanction by the WPA but he declined that offer because he doesn't recognize any other organization. "


Gabber

This is that "disastrous fallout" that Blackjack referred to in one of the other threads. It is the IPT's choice not to be part of the WPA. By flatly refusing to pay the WPA sanctioning fee, they are showing that thye do not want to be part of the "International" community. I think that this forces the players to have to choose sides, which is unfair. These players just want to play (and make money). I don't view this as a strong arm tactic to harm players, it looks as if it is a show of unity in opposition to this tour. The players are caught in the middle. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Why doesn't this guy just pay the amount of the sanctioning? Supposedly he is a bejillionaire, why would it matter? Is it because he wants to be the top guy and not have to answer to anybody? I understand the fact that he has all this money and he can do whatever he wants to do, but that type of attitude wreaks of isolationism. Wouldn't it be to his advantage to work with the WPA and be a leader in the community as opposed to thumbing his nose at them? From a business standpoint this makes absolutely no sense to me. I would think that if he wanted to help the game of pool globally, that he would try to become a member of the community and try to improve it with his money, his connections, and his influence. If I am missing something here somebody please respectfully explain this to me with facts, not wishful thinking or woo-woo stuff that supports one side or the other. I'm just curious.

[Timberly]

Thank you Kimberly, it was my intention to pick a fitting name.
My name is Timberly (I didn't realize how much "T" looks like "K" :rolleyes: )

I still haven't seen your name... your surname, not the one your choosing to hide behind.

[onepocketchump]

I was wondering when you would get around to me. Don't come at me like an ass please and I'll be courteous to you.


Like you siad- he wouldnt have a tournament with any top players!
Or maybe its because he only has to flash a few $$s around and everyone wants to jump on the gravy train so badly, they are even prepared to put all their faith in a snake oil salesman, who up till now has done diddely squat for the game.

Well, isn't it sad that the organizations that have been in place for 20-50 years couldn't get it done so that the players don't HAVE to rely on the benevolence of promoters? Why don't you direct your criticism where it belongs. I am sure that you would have a problem with ANY millionaire who started a pool tour. I am positive that you would find ANY reason to be negative about what you think are their motivations.


Berry said,
"Sources tell me that the WPA gave KT an offer for a free sanction by the WPA but he declined that offer because he doesn't recognize any other organization. "

It must be pretty obvious by now that KT wants to divide the pool world. IMO, he wants to force a split. If the rest of the pool world decides to ban all IPT players from their tournys, those players will be the mercy of KT!
They wont be able to play anywhere else!
He could cut the payouts by 50% and they wouldnt be able to do anything about it!
He could hold the next meeting at the North Pole and disqualify all those who didnt attend!
He could call all the Euros faggots and insist they wear pink tutus when playing.

He could do all of those things and there are those that would go along with it and those that would not. The point IS that neither you nor anyone else has an alternative that is the least bit attractive or financially viable to the PLAYERS - you remember them don't you, the ones whose livlihoods you want to dictate without any substance.


The list is endless.......................

For the WPA to be able to promote pool around the world, they need sponsers and to attract sponsers, they need to be able to sell their tournaments. They need the top players. Their job is to avoid tournaments conflicting with each other.

What would be your reaction if KT decided to hold a tourny at the same time as the US Open. Would you see that as being good for pool?
What would happen to the IPT players who choose [ out of loyalty] to play Barry's tourny?
Make no mistake about it, they would be out of the IPT.

Think about it.

Gabber

As I said before, and which you either did not read, comprehend or just chose to ignore, the WPA has had 20 years to refine and sell it's produict AND IT FAILED.

If KT put up a tournament against the US Open and the stipulation was that if you play in that one you can't be a part of this one then that's the way it is. I wouldn't much care for that stipulation, just like I don't care for the APBU doing it but I would have to live with it. Again, it is the FAILURE of the WPA and all the other acronymiuos groups in pool which is to blame for the POSSIBILITY of ONE PERSON having a shot at OWNING professional pool.

And anyway, we have all lost sight of the fact that the WPA is supposed to be an AMATEUR organization, why are they meddling in professional pool anyway?

But all I have seen from you Gabber is NEGATIVE SPECULATION. Put you money where your mouth is and bet something on what you think will happen. Then we will see whether you actually are convinced of the nonsense you spout or whether you just want to be contrary for the fun of it.

John

[pete lafond]

Can you guys expound on your statements of "weak" and "stupid"? I am sure everyone knows why you are saying these things and there are of course arguements for both sides. I figured a forum like this is to share information, not just call people names.

Have WPA pay more money to the players and there is no problem. Otherwise they are being very unfair to the players.

[pete lafond]

Berry said,
"Sources tell me that the WPA gave KT an offer for a free sanction by the WPA but he declined that offer because he doesn't recognize any other organization. "



If this is the WPA stand, then I suggest that the remaining players ban together and create their own billiards organization. Many of these tours would have to go with this new association because ther would not be any players left.

Why can't the WPA live with everyone?

[Rich R.]

Why doesn't this guy just pay the amount of the sanctioning? Supposedly he is a bejillionaire, why would it matter?
There is much more involved than the sanctioning fee.
If KT were to join the WPA and pay the fee, the WPA would want a say in the format of the IPT tournaments and the player selection. It is obvious that KT has some strong ideas about who he wants in these tournaments and how they should be run.
Since he is putting up the money, why should he let someone else decide how that money is spent?

[pete lafond]

This is that "disastrous fallout" that Blackjack referred to in one of the other threads. It is the IPT's choice not to be part of the WPA. By flatly refusing to pay the WPA sanctioning fee, they are showing that thye do not want to be part of the "International" community. I think that this forces the players to have to choose sides, which is unfair. These players just want to play (and make money). I don't view this as a strong arm tactic to harm players, it looks as if it is a show of unity in opposition to this tour. The players are caught in the middle. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

.

This is every reason we need a professional billiards organization. Maybe IPT will fill the bill.

[onepocketchump]

This is that "disastrous fallout" that Blackjack referred to in one of the other threads. It is the IPT's choice not to be part of the WPA. By flatly refusing to pay the WPA sanctioning fee, they are showing that thye do not want to be part of the "International" community. I think that this forces the players to have to choose sides, which is unfair. These players just want to play (and make money). I don't view this as a strong arm tactic to harm players, it looks as if it is a show of unity in opposition to this tour. The players are caught in the middle. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Why doesn't this guy just pay the amount of the sanctioning? Supposedly he is a bejillionaire, why would it matter? Is it because he wants to be the top guy and not have to answer to anybody? I understand the fact that he has all this money and he can do whatever he wants to do, but that type of attitude wreaks of isolationism. Wouldn't it be to his advantage to work with the WPA and be a leader in the community as opposed to thumbing his nose at them? From a business standpoint this makes absolutely no sense to me. I would think that if he wanted to help the game of pool globally, that he would try to become a member of the community and try to improve it with his money, his connections, and his influence. If I am missing something here somebody please respectfully explain this to me with facts, not wishful thinking or woo-woo stuff that supports one side or the other. I'm just curious.

I think it is because the WPA likes to use scare tactics with promoters. Kevin already has 2000 applications of people who WANT to be part of what he is doing. Those applications include the top players in the world for the most part. Kevin also understands that since the WPA is essentially powerless to provide a platform for players to earn a very good living and become famous then he is competing against no one. The question is WHAT possible benefit is there to WPA sanctioning when the players will walk anyway?

John

[onepocketchump]

In golf, you cant buy the whole tour by flashing a wad of cash and making promises! Especially when you have a history of of making false promises/claims. He hasnt been BANNED from TV for nothing you know!
All I,m saying is, that based on the history of KT, we should doubt his intentions until he has proved otherwise.

Gabber


Well, duh. That's what I and others have been saying for weeks now.

As far as the FTC Ban, neither you or I know the full scope of that deal. For the record though, the American public is plied with outlandish claims everyday via infomercials and otherwise. The American public is defrauded by both commercial and non-commercial enterprises every moment of every day and the government does nothing. We don't know if the FTC lawsuit was instigated by an outside or not. For someonw with som much capacity for speculation, conspiracy theories, persecution and domination fantasies, it is diheartening to see you giving the government and big medicine a FREE PASS.

John

[Gabber]

"For someonw with som much capacity for speculation, conspiracy theories, persecution ".

LMAO.

" speculation"
KT makes claims for products that he cant back up with facts. Thats why he is off the airwaves.

"conspiracy theories"
KT claims the Govt, the drug companies, the food industry, the medical profession, etc are all in a conspiracy to make and keep people sick- then only to deny them a cure!

" persecution"
KT should never have gone to jail. It was all the result of an over zealous prosecutor. The reason he has been kicked off TV is because EVERYBODY is against him. LOL


Give me a break!

G........... ;)

[Colin Colenso]

My name is Timberly (I didn't realize how much "T" looks like "K" :rolleyes: )

I still haven't seen your name... your surname, not the one your choosing to hide behind.
Timberly,
From what I can decifer from Dr. Dissent's words, remember he only posted the APBU notice, he didn't write it, is that he seems to have a balanced and realistic insight into what is going on. I suspect he is involved in the system and it could be risky for him to say what he is saying under his own name.

I think he has made some intelligent contributions, and I hope he continues.

Colin

[straybullet]

The question is WHAT possible benefit is there to WPA sanctioning when the players will walk anyway?

John

John,
How does the reverse benefit the IPT? This is where I am lost. What both sides are doing is making the players have to make this tough decision. They are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

For everybody that is saying "money talks and bullshit walks" you must remember that culturally in places such as Asia they are not going to think in those terms. They are more inclined to make their decisions based on honor and loyalty (in the long term), than on big dollar signs (in the short term). So internationally that immature attitude will not win many people over.

With the popularity of pool throughout Asia, it makes no sense to me why he would not want to work towards developing good relations within the international community. To me, this makes no sense as a business decision. If and when they lure the players from the Asian tours, what will that do to the momentum that pool has over there now? Admittedly I'm not running this thing, but if I was - I'd be smart enough to realize that there is more to be lost than gained by initially distancing my tour from the rest of the world. His attitude will come across as arrogant - which gets you nowhere in that part of the world. Anyone that has international business experience will tell you that you have to bridge a few cultural gaps to be effective in certain markets. It blows my mind that they don't realize this, or have someone advising them how to conduct business internationally. I'll ask you ,John. Am I missing something or am I reading too much into this? If I am let me know. I'm trying to understand this. You are a successful business person, and I know you understand my point. Why are they being like this? It doesn't make any sense. They are International, but not conducting themselves with an international mindset.

[Celtic]

John,
How does the reverse benefit the IPT? This is where I am lost. What both sides are doing is making the players have to make this tough decision. They are damned if they do, damned if they don't.



That is bull crap. Kevin Trudoe from day one has said he has no angst against any other organization out there. He is not the one putting these ultimatums out there. He is quite willing to allow the players of the IPT play any tournament they want to and has said such in his interview on BCC. It is the WPA and APBU and so many other organizations that are the ones putting out these restrictions and forcing the players to make the choice. The IPT has done nothing more then put some huge tournaments out there with huge purses and allow anyone who wanted to apply to attmept to get into the tour.

This forcing of the players hand is solely on the head of the WPA and the APBU. They are the ones that are scared of the competition and they are the ones putting out the ultimatum to their players forcing them to make the choice. The IPT has never put the players at odds with any other organization or limited where the IPT members could play. They have definately taken the upper hand in class and furthering this sport in this regard. I wonder how many people are truely surprised.

The WPA and APBU have made a move that can only fragment this sport and hurt it. WTG WPA, you guys are really looking out for this sport, great to have ya on our side. I would LOVE to see them justify this move to the fans and players, but that wont happen, they cannot come close to giving a positive reasonsing over this action. It is a vindictive attack attempting to destroy a rival organization and that is totally obvious.

[jjinfla]

And how much is baseball paying to Asia for sanctioning? Afterall there is a world championship being decided right now. And football? And Hockey? And Golf? And tennis? And soccer?

I have never watched Butamante, Reyes or Manalo play in person and I doubt if my world will be affected if I never see them play. It is their loss - not mine.

On with the games. Those who come will play and prosper. Those who stay home will always wonder if they "couda been somebody".

[Colin Colenso]

Hi Debra,
I've no intention to inflame here...just to try to try to make the explanation you asked for in your post. I may not have all the satisfactory answers but I'll try my best. See inserts below.
This is that "disastrous fallout" that Blackjack referred to in one of the other threads.
The IPT was always going to make waves, and threaten the WPA's credibilty / curent position of strength. I talked about this weeks ago. Whether this will e disastrous or good, is the matter of contention we are debating.

It is the IPT's choice not to be part of the WPA. By flatly refusing to pay the WPA sanctioning fee, they are showing that thye do not want to be part of the "International" community.
I think it only shows that KT doesn't see the value in cooperating with the WPA. After his first discussion with them, which sounded like more of a shakedown than a business proposition his attitude is understandable. I think KT has every intention of pleasing an international community of players. At this point, it is unclear how the WPA would play a vauable role in ensuring this.


I think that this forces the players to have to choose sides, which is unfair. These players just want to play (and make money). I don't view this as a strong arm tactic to harm players, it looks as if it is a show of unity in opposition to this tour. The players are caught in the middle. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Well you can't please all of the people all of the time. If the players suffer losses by joining the IPT, then this reduces KT's bargaining power with the players. The economic dynamincs of this make it likely that KT's interests are best served in the long run by finding a compromise. The IPT has already made efforts to avoid conflicts of dates and it has said it will not prevent IPT tour member from competing in other tours/events. These are compromises the WPA has not reciprocated.


Why doesn't this guy just pay the amount of the sanctioning? Supposedly he is a bejillionaire, why would it matter?
Principles and value for money! Remember, that according to WPA standards, 5% of money added would be the fee. This would come to over US$400,000 per year. More than the entire annual budget of the WPA. This is not pocket change. Fact is he could probably buy the necessary voting members of the WPA for less than this amount if he wanted to and become the president.


Is it because he wants to be the top guy and not have to answer to anybody?
If you committed $30+ million into your own business venture, into an industry which circulates one 10th of this amount annually, wouldn't you want to / expect to be the top guy?


I understand the fact that he has all this money and he can do whatever he wants to do, but that type of attitude wreaks of isolationism.
Are you a neocon? The proper word should be independence. He is maintaining the rights to control his own property. There are economic incentives for the IPT to develop cooperation with leagues and tournaments worldwide. I expect this will be phase 2 of his business plan. He just doesn't see the WPA as the perfect business partner to expand with at this stage.

I for one have offered to set up a qualifying tour in China to get Chinese players to the IPT qualifying event. This may be the biggest boon to Chinese pool the country has ever seen. I expect the same type of opportunities and expansion can be synergized around the world. Something the WPA could not provide enough incentive for in the past.


Wouldn't it be to his advantage to work with the WPA and be a leader in the community as opposed to thumbing his nose at them? From a business standpoint this makes absolutely no sense to me.

Well, what he is doing, and what he has done makes a lot of sense to me, as a professional in the sports marketing business and someone who has studied business and economics for years. There are several threads on AZ in the past year or so, before the birth of the IPT, regarding what it will take to advance the sport. I responded several times that the sport needed a king-pin entrepreneur with media / PR / marketing saavy. KT fills those requiements very well. The WPA does not. Perhaps the WPA will continue to play some role, but organizations structured in the way the WPA are, as bureaucratic underlings to the IOC have basically no chance of progessing sports to anywhere the levels we see in NFL, PGA, WTA, F1, FIFA, WWE and the like, which make their stars into millionaires and provide worldwide entertainment.


I would think that if he wanted to help the game of pool globally, that he would try to become a member of the community and try to improve it with his money, his connections, and his influence. If I am missing something here somebody please respectfully explain this to me with facts, not wishful thinking or woo-woo stuff that supports one side or the other. I'm just curious.
I hope that helped clarify.
Colin>~ Tired of typing!

[straybullet]

That is bull crap.

You may think its bull crap, but that's the reality. If you were a player on the APBU, you would lose no matter what option you decided to choose. That's unfair. The players are being pulled in both directions. Both sides are too busy posturing with each other to realize that. Saying its bull crap and pushing all of the blame on organizations that will be adversely affected by this doesn't solve anything. The APBU are doing what they feel is necessary for THEM to survive. What would you do if you were the APBU? Monetariliy, they cannot compete with Kevin Trudeau. Everybody knows that. Being arrogant about that will not win him friends in that part of the world. All of his money doesn't change the fact that pool is more popular in Asia than it is here. Obviously he needs to find a way to tap into that instead of driving that business away. I'm asking someone to make some sense out of that so I can understand what the IPT is doing from international business standpoint. It looks to me as an outsider looking in, that Mr. Trudeau has fragmented himself away from the rest of the sport. If I'm wrong about that (from an international business standpoint) then explain it to me. As I said before, to me it makes no sense.

[Snapshot9]

You may think its bull crap, but that's the reality. If you were a player on the APBU, you would lose no matter what option you decided to choose. That's unfair. The players are being pulled in both directions. Both sides are too busy posturing with each other to realize that. Saying its bull crap and pushing all of the blame on organizations that will be adversely affected by this doesn't solve anything. The APBU are doing what they feel is necessary for THEM to survive. What would you do if you were the APBU? Monetariliy, they cannot compete with Kevin Trudeau. Everybody knows that. Being arrogant about that will not win him friends in that part of the world. All of his money doesn't change the fact that pool is more popular in Asia than it is here. Obviously he needs to find a way to tap into that instead of driving that business away. I'm asking someone to make some sense out of that so I can understand what the IPT is doing from international business standpoint. It looks to me as an outsider looking in, that Mr. Trudeau has fragmented himself away from the rest of the sport. If I'm wrong about that (from an international business standpoint) then explain it to me. As I said before, to me it makes no sense.

From an International standpoint, he is setting precedents, something
other Pool organizations should have done in the past for the sport and
the players, but have mostly just given 'lip service' to. He will establish
an organization that will show them 'the way' that the sport should be.
It is still in infancy right now, it needs time to unfold into a full blown
organization. As it develops, it will be apparent to other organizations,
that the its 'us or them' attitude will just be detrimental to their own
organizations, and they will be moved to a new spirit of cooperation.
But, at that time, KT will have leverage then, and have the power to
exercise it, by affecting these other organizations with the rules, format,
and benefits for the players involved. His payouts go way down the line
where a good player is almost going to be guaranteed getting at least
$6,300 for showing up, plus one heck of a lot more if they play good.
Country loyalty may pull at the Asian and Filapino players some, but in
the end, they will play where they have the best chance of making money,
and the IPT offers a better chance of a return of investment in their time
and expenses than the other competing tours do.

The players only have to ask themselves 1 question:
Do I want to eat at McDonalds again tonight or at a nice steak house?

[onepocketchump]

John,
How does the reverse benefit the IPT? This is where I am lost. What both sides are doing is making the players have to make this tough decision. They are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

For everybody that is saying "money talks and bullshit walks" you must remember that culturally in places such as Asia they are not going to think in those terms. They are more inclined to make their decisions based on honor and loyalty (in the long term), than on big dollar signs (in the short term). So internationally that immature attitude will not win many people over.

With the popularity of pool throughout Asia, it makes no sense to me why he would not want to work towards developing good relations within the international community. To me, this makes no sense as a business decision. If and when they lure the players from the Asian tours, what will that do to the momentum that pool has over there now? Admittedly I'm not running this thing, but if I was - I'd be smart enough to realize that there is more to be lost than gained by initially distancing my tour from the rest of the world. His attitude will come across as arrogant - which gets you nowhere in that part of the world. Anyone that has international business experience will tell you that you have to bridge a few cultural gaps to be effective in certain markets. It blows my mind that they don't realize this, or have someone advising them how to conduct business internationally. I'll ask you ,John. Am I missing something or am I reading too much into this? If I am let me know. I'm trying to understand this. You are a successful business person, and I know you understand my point. Why are they being like this? It doesn't make any sense. They are International, but not conducting themselves with an international mindset.


First the business end: Kevin needs and wants a vehicle to advertise Natural Cures to the couple hundred million American and Canadian viewers that aren't watching his infomercials about it. The easiest vehicle with the least amount of obstacles is pool. This is a sport/pastime that is pervasive in our culture and enjoys decent ratings in just about any time slot. No one controls it, no one owns it, yet. He figures to get enough top notch players to produce good tv and he will. With the Hall of Famers he can MARKET, MARKET, MARKET their accomplishments and MAKE everyone else who is playing seem as though they have to measure up to the pool greats. He doesn't need a unknown from Japan when he has Machine Gun Lou and the Rifleman and Captain Hook. He doesn't even need Efren Reyes who is virtually unknown in the USA. But, truthfully, he doesn't even need really good pool players to make a television show, BallBreakers proves that.

Now the cultural side: I know that the popular thinking is that Asians do everything based on honor but it has been my experience that plenty of Asians base their decisions on money and are willing to be dishonorable if it makes them more money. Perhaps this is not the norm but I suspect that survival instincts trump honorable intentions more often than most of us would like to believe. Every pool player wants to be the very best and have all of the accolades and rewards that are supposed to come with being the very best. Being #1 on the IPT Tour may not make one the very best in the world but it is definitely a strong accomplishment that is probably going to be rewarded with fame and fortune. Kevin's stated intention is to provide a platform for players to improve themselves though the use of their skills. If you want to add a spiritual motivation to this then it is up to each player to choose the path that is best suited to them. Kevin is providing an opportuinty which goes alongside the existing ones. In truth, they can and probably will run in harmony, but in the case of bans and such, each player has the right to choose freely.

This is not so much about winning people over as it is about business that goes beyond the level where pool currently resides. The only people that Kevin needs to concern himself with are those that can put his product, pool competitions, in front of millions of eyeballs with credit cards. Unless the WPA or anyone else can bring something of real value to the table they don't have a place at it.

John

[jjinfla]

Well I suppose that is what Kevin Trudeau gets for being so nice and opening up the tournament to everyone. What would people have said if he had limited the tournament to Citizens of the USA?

Efren is guaranteed $30,000 for showing up and the WPA/APBU wants to prevent him from playing. But if he stays home I am sure the WPA and APBU will make it up to him.

[onepocketchump]

"For someonw with som much capacity for speculation, conspiracy theories, persecution ".

LMAO.

" speculation"
KT makes claims for products that he cant back up with facts. Thats why he is off the airwaves.

"conspiracy theories"
KT claims the Govt, the drug companies, the food industry, the medical profession, etc are all in a conspiracy to make and keep people sick- then only to deny them a cure!

" persecution"
KT should never have gone to jail. It was all the result of an over zealous prosecutor. The reason he has been kicked off TV is because EVERYBODY is against him. LOL


Give me a break!

G........... ;)

Yeah, I kind of figured that this would be the best you could come up with. It sounds like the only difference between you and KT is millions of dollars. Are you jealous?

Keep your head in the sand. It's safer for you down there.

John

[Colin Colenso]

It makes no more sense to say that the IPT should unite with the WPA as it does to say that Wallmart should unite with K-Mart. They are potential adversaries / competitors.

They may find a confluence of opportunity, and combine forces, as some companies do, but they may also continue to confront one another.

The end result, as the free market has continued to display for centuries, is a likely better model succeeding.

Even if the IPT fails, they will provide many lessons to future developers of the game. Take a look at the promo on their home page for example. Take a note WPA, that is what good production looks like. Any of you ever produced or overseen the production of a video. Any of you ever sold a sponsorship over 30k? Made a deal with a network TV station that wasn't approached by someone else first, or didn't come to you?

Fact is, if the WPA was an events company, it would have gone out of business long ago. What is it? It is essentially a political organization. It survives through its association with the IOC and WCBS as best I can determine.

Such organizations are not effective in developing sports business in my experience. There are plenty of successfull organizations in sport to back up my position. The nay sayers don't have any case studies to support their opinions, so far as I have seen. Thier opinions seem to be based on airy-fairy concepts of unity...reeking of post-modenistic marxianism. urghh :p

[DaveK]

Well I suppose that is what Kevin Trudeau gets for being so nice and opening up the tournament to everyone.

150 hand picked players, not 'everyone'.

Dave

[Celtic]

You may think its bull crap, but that's the reality.

What is bull crap is your claim that the IPT is making the players choose. It is not the IPT making the players choose sides. That is solely the blame of the WPA that has put out the ultimatum. Try actually reading AND quoting more then the first 4 words of a thread that explains the initial claim made in those 4 words next time. You put some responsibility over the forced choice on the IPT, you were wrong, and you got called on it. The only thing the IPT did to cause this factioning was come into existence and the WPA should get some humility and realize they are not the only kid who has the right to play in the sandbox. The bully tactics over this whole matter from the WPA since the IPT was announced have been very obvious. If you want to be a fangirl of a ineffective organization that now attempts to split this sport further into factions then be my guest but know that this is exactly what you are doing and everyone here can see it.

[Celtic]

It looks to me as an outsider looking in, that Mr. Trudeau has fragmented himself away from the rest of the sport. If I'm wrong about that (from an international business standpoint) then explain it to me. As I said before, to me it makes no sense.

The WPA is nothing more then a protection racket for pool. They are akin to the mafia comming into someones store and demanding money for their services, which amount to nothing more then not robbing the business and driving away the customers themselves. They offer a service that is worthless, it does NOTHING, and they want hundreds of thousands of dollars for this nothing. Kevin simply decided he was not going to be strongarmed by a organization that is a thinly veiled protection racket and in so doing the WPA protection racket has now put into effect their repercussions much like a couple thugs comming into a mom and pop store and smashing the place up with baseball bats. Only the IPT is doing their attack with actions such as what lead to this thread among other things such as Mr Anderson's letter that was little more then a personal attack on KT. They have definately decided to take the route of the gutter in their very puiblic battle against the IPT and I dont see how in the world they can actually sit there and think this is a smart move. The WPA is loosing ALOT of respect in the pool world and will lose alot more if they keep up with this strong arming policy.

[Colin Colenso]

150 hand picked players, not 'everyone'.

Dave
5 of the 9 million on offer is open to everyone via two of the 6 events, the US and World Championships.

That's about 3 times more than that on offer at all WPA sactioned tournaments around the world, many of which are extremely hard or financially inefficient to enter.

[Timberly]

Timberly,
From what I can decifer from Dr. Dissent's words, remember he only posted the APBU notice, he didn't write it, is that he seems to have a balanced and realistic insight into what is going on. I suspect he is involved in the system and it could be risky for him to say what he is saying under his own name.

I think he has made some intelligent contributions, and I hope he continues.

Colin
You could be right, I read these rather quickly when I'm at work but it appeared to me that he was making the announcement. Too many people come on here stirring up controversy hiding behind an alias... Going under the asssumption that he was announcing it, I found it cowardly to hide behind an alias. If what you say is correct, then fine whatever, I'm just really sick of the whole damn thing. The sport is never going to get anywhere with everyone wanting a piece for themselves & refusing to work together. :rolleyes: Ya'll duke it out, I'm done reading these issues... let me know when all these different organizations can figure how to work together to better pool. :cool:

[DaveK]

[QUOTE=Colin Colenso]5 of the 9 million on offer is open to everyone via two of the 6 events, the US and World Championships.
QUOTE]


OK, I sit corrected. Most of the events are limited to 150 hand picked players.

Dave

[Colin Colenso]

[QUOTE=Colin Colenso]5 of the 9 million on offer is open to everyone via two of the 6 events, the US and World Championships.
QUOTE]


OK, I sit corrected. Most of the events are limited to 150 hand picked players.

Dave
Hey Dave...good to see you taking it in your stride/seat:D

Actually only 2 of the events are only for the 150 players.

2 are the open events. There is a mention of the 150 players receiving seeding, which may mean guaranteed prizemoney that the open field has to progress into.

The other 2 events are the 43 player invitational next month as a top 40 (selected on the year's performance) event after the qualifying. (From memory)

The other event is the qualifying where 50 players will replace the lowest 50 ranked players on the tour. A reasonably open format for a tour I think. Certainly more easily accessible than the snooker tour was in the past.

[Travis Bickle]

Amen, Celtic. These groups making the threats are nothing but protection rackets in this case. These are THEIR players to dispose with as they please? So they feed and house them, educate their kids, and will fly them to the venue if only KT will grease their palms?

I think it's like SJM also said ... they're just trying to cut the legs out from a possible competitor. Kudos to KT for not trying to wrap anybody up, but let his tour succeed or fail on the merits, not on some divide-and-conquer strongarming game.

[straybullet]

What is bull crap is your claim that the IPT is making the players choose. It is not the IPT making the players choose sides. That is solely the blame of the WPA that has put out the ultimatum. Try actually reading AND quoting more then the first 4 words of a thread that explains the initial claim made in those 4 words next time. You put some responsibility over the forced choice on the IPT, you were wrong, and you got called on it. The only thing the IPT did to cause this factioning was come into existence and the WPA should get some humility and realize they are not the only kid who has the right to play in the sandbox. The bully tactics over this whole matter from the WPA since the IPT was announced have been very obvious. If you want to be a fangirl of a ineffective organization that now attempts to split this sport further into factions then be my guest but know that this is exactly what you are doing and everyone here can see it.


Celtic - It was an observation, not a claim. I asked very nicely for someone to respectfully correct me if I was wrong. Several people came in (John, Colin, and others) and provided some very insightful information and did an excellent job answering my questions. Thank you, guys. You call me a "fangirl" of the WPA? Whatever. Would you like for me to stick with a Marissa response of "great post, tap tap tap"??? I'm sorry I asked an intelligent question.

I'm with Timberly on this. This is just a bunch of people that can't get along and don't want to get along. Too many chefs trying to stir the soup. I don't care how much exposure or money this guy can provide. Can he create an atmosphere where everybody can sit down and try to work together instead of declaring war on each other? This is stupid. They should put me and Timberly in charge. We'd bust some heads and get results.

[Dr. Dissent]

Timberly,
From what I can decifer from Dr. Dissent's words, remember he only posted the APBU notice, he didn't write it, is that he seems to have a balanced and realistic insight into what is going on. I suspect he is involved in the system and it could be risky for him to say what he is saying under his own name.

Colin

Thank you Colin....

[Dr. Dissent]

Sorry to interrupt this nice discourse about the pros and cons of WPA sanctioning, but just for the record, Earl Strickland was NOT banned from the UPA. He quit due to reasons which are well known within the American pool community.

Carry on, if you must, Dr. Dissent, but you're barking up the wrong tree on this forum, unless you enjoying being in the minority party! :p

LONG LIVE THE IPT!

JAM

JAM, if you read my post, I was saying that it doesn't matter if top players get banned from their respective federations. If Barry Bearns, or Mr.Bherman wants him or any other player in their tournaments, they will play regardless if they have been banned or if they quit, like Mr. Strickland did.

I'm not barking up the wrong tree. I am against the bans....and yes, I know I am a minority party.....

[Dr. Dissent]

You say Barry should have paid... Does that mean the US Open wasn't santioned by the WPA?

Originally the added money for the US Open was $50,000. This means Barry should have paid $2500 sanctioning fees. The US Open flyer also indicated that he would put in $72,000 if there was a full field. This means the sanctioning fee should have been $3,600.

[Dr. Dissent]

My name is Timberly (I didn't realize how much "T" looks like "K" :rolleyes: )

Geez, Timberly, it was an honest mistake. Sorry to have misspelled your name...


I still haven't seen your name... your surname, not the one your choosing to hide behind.

No need to know my name. You should have decifered my reasons by now...

[Dr. Dissent]

Press releases and advertisement for the U.S. Open indicated that the tournament was sanctioned by the WPA and the UPA. We must assume that all appropriate fees were paid.

Thank you Rich R.

[onepocketchump]

150 hand picked players, not 'everyone'.

Dave

Um, with several thousand applicants and two tournaments that are billed as TRULY OPEN to anyone I would say that the IPT is certainly open. More so than the so-called US Open, more than WPBA's US Open, more than the Japan Open, more than the San Miguel Tour, more than the UPA.

John

[berry]

BS. Please provide proof of any tournaments/organizations in the United States which have received any money FROM the WPA. The WPA sold out the men's World Championships without doing anything for the Women and Juniors.



If so then why did the WPA then ask for $150,000? Did they feel that KT would recognize them if they put a price tag on the sanctioning. The hard, cold truth is that KT does not NEED WPA sanctioning. If he did then he would of paid the $150,000 without blinking. But he knows who is who in the pool world and knows who he needs to deal with and who he does not. That is the failure of the WPA and the BCA.

John

Dear John,

I have seen US players (youth and woman) play at the World Pool Championships. Both organized by the WPA. Besides that I know that as from next year there will also be a WPC 8-ball for youth in the Fujaira. Then I have to say I don't know the US situation but the EPBF (European department of the WPA) have many tournaments for men / woman and youth and wheelchair players. Have a look at www.europeanchampionships.com or http://www.wch-pool.com/en/main.php?location=start just to give you an idea.

Then the sanction fee, my sources say the WPA wanted to sanction it for FREE! But KT doesn't reconize any other organization besides his own. And even when they have asked 150.000$, what a good way to contribute to the sport, that's a very reasanable amount on his budget. This way he would contribute to the sport, still have all the players behind his tournment and support the complete picture of the sport instead of the 50 pro players and his book.

Then you said in a other post that Berry Hearn picked his own players in his tournaments, well altough that was the case I have to say that you can now qualify for the WPC, they made rules with the WPA!! And also the other tournaments have selection criteria that were made in agreement with the WPA.

Regards,

Berry

[onepocketchump]

Dear John,

I have seen US players (youth and woman) play at the World Pool Championships. Both organized by the WPA. Besides that I know that as from next year there will also be a WPC 8-ball for youth in the Fujaira. Then I have to say I don't know the US situation but the EPBF (European department of the WPA) have many tournaments for men / woman and youth and wheelchair players. Have a look at www.europeanchampionships.com or http://www.wch-pool.com/en/main.php?location=start just to give you an idea.

Then the sanction fee, my sources say the WPA wanted to sanction it for FREE! But KT doesn't reconize any other organization besides his own. And even when they have asked 150.000$, what a good way to contribute to the sport, that's a very reasanable amount on his budget. This way he would contribute to the sport, still have all the players behind his tournment and support the complete picture of the sport instead of the 50 pro players and his book.

Then you said in a other post that Berry Hearn picked his own players in his tournaments, well altough that was the case I have to say that you can now qualify for the WPC, they made rules with the WPA!! And also the other tournaments have selection criteria that were made in agreement with the WPA.

Regards,

Berry

What I am saying is that the WPA sold out the WPC to Barry Hearn. The Women and Juniors were relegated to second class status and their World Championships are barely even noticed and done in obscure places under a different format than the men's WPC.

Don't get me wrong - the men's WPC under Barry Hearn is MORE exciting and more of a test of skill than the same event under the WPA.

But, it is a clear example of HOW the WPA is for sale. Why is the winner of the VNEA nationals not offered a spot at the WC, why not the winner of the BCA nationals? Why not the APA singles champion? Why is the UPA the ones who choose who goes to the WC? The point is that it is ALL political with the WPA with NO CONSISTENTCY at all. That is why a Chia Ching Wu (taiwan) doesn't have to qualify for the WPC but a Justin Bergman (USA)does.

Finally, you say that you don't know about the USA's billiard situation as regards the WPA and suboridnate federations' tournaments. The WPA has no requirement that any tournaments, leagues or particular formats be held or followed in the USA. The only tournament that the BCA, the organization that belongs to the WPA, holds of any signifigance is the INVITATIONAL in Las Vegas. The WPA isn't asking the VNEA, the BCA Leauges, and the APA for sanctioning money EVEN though WPA and EPBF players play in those league events. If the WPA had any clout then we would all play with standard rules, money would flow from the smallest venues to support pool worldwide and no single promoter could buck the system. But, in the USA the WPA is insignifigant as is the BCA and so their demands for sanctioning fees and recognition is treated with about the same level as their contribution.

The fact that Barry Hearn does a much better job of PRODUCING an event that is not only exciting but a real test of skill that crowns a deserving champion ought to be all the example you need to see that a promoter does a better job of elevating pool than the WPA does. Isn't it sad that the WC was seen LIVE and EVERY shot was seen and replayed in slow motion, everywhere EXCEPT the United States? Please outline exactly what the WPA did to rectify that situation?

John

[berry]

@ John,

"The Women and Juniors were relegated to second class status and their World Championships are barely even noticed and done in obscure places under a different format than the men's WPC. "

I guess that you never visited such a tournament. I am very sorry that you think that way, but it is not true. Ask the youth from the Europeans or World Championship how they think about the tournament and location. As coach of the Dutch yout I can say they are great, just as good as the WPC!!! Indeed there are less press, but you have that with most sports.

"Don't get me wrong - the men's WPC under Barry Hearn is MORE exciting and more of a test of skill than the same event under the WPA."

Don't mix up a production company with a world pool organization. You cannot compare them. You could be happy that the WPA does a lot of buisiness with Matchroom, as they do that for the game.

Then you complain with the qualifying system of the WPC, well they were made with all the members of the WPA together with Matchroom. You can find them here: http://www.worldpoolchampionship.com/qualification_system.asp

I think that if you want to Qualify and you have these rules: Category 4
Winner and runner-up of all UPA-sanctioned events having a field of 48 or more players, which take place within a period that commences immediately after the previous year’s championship and finishes on the 15 May on the year of the World Pool Championship. In following years, the relevant period will revert to a 12 months cycle from May 16 to May 15 the following year.

Category 5
The winner and runner-up in the following events having taken place in the 12 months prior to the World Pool Championship: the US Open 9-Ball Championship, the BCA Open 9-Ball Championship

Category 6
The top four highest finishing players at the 2004 Canadian National 9-Ball Championship

Category 7
The top 12 ranked North American players on the UPA Seeding Rankings up to 15 May.

Category 8
Team America representatives at the previous three Mosconi Cups (2004, 2003, 2002)

If you are good enough you could qualify!

"The fact that Barry Hearn does a much better job of PRODUCING an event that is not only exciting but a real test of skill that crowns a deserving champion ought to be all the example you need to see that a promoter does a better job of elevating pool than the WPA does. Isn't it sad that the WC was seen LIVE and EVERY shot was seen and replayed in slow motion, everywhere EXCEPT the United States? Please outline exactly what the WPA did to rectify that situation?"

Matchroom works with the WPA so you should complement the WPA for working together with them. You cannot expect Matchroom to be the World Assosiation...???
And why wasn't it shown in the US, well because the TV bosses didn't buy it, not the fold of Matchroom and nothing to do with the WPA.
Like the IPT, it's very hard to get into the TV market, the deal they have now is like a 5 minute item in a sportsshow...WOW it's on prime time...it's still not broadcasting a tournament and THE REST OF THE WORLD cannot see a damn thing.

Berry

[Sweet Marissa]

Then the sanction fee, my sources say the WPA wanted to sanction it for FREE! But KT doesn't reconize any other organization besides his own. And even when they have asked 150.000$, what a good way to contribute to the sport, that's a very reasanable amount on his budget. This way he would contribute to the sport, still have all the players behind his tournment and support the complete picture of the sport instead of the 50 pro players and his book.
He's already investing millions into this venture. So he's supposed to pay out-of-pocket to be sanctioned by the WPA, who approached him like they're the mafia of pool?

What will the IPT benefit from being sanctioned? What can they do for the IPT, that Trudeau can't do himself? It looks to me like he's doing a pretty good job with everything already: Deno Andrews is onboard as TD, hired a top marketing firm, media coverage and exposure, millions in payouts...

[T411]

He's already investing millions into this venture. So he's supposed to pay out-of-pocket to be sanctioned by the WPA, who approached him like they're the mafia of pool?

What will the IPT benefit from being sanctioned? What can they do for the IPT, that Trudeau can't do himself? It looks to me like he's doing a pretty good job with everything already: Deno Andrews is onboard as TD, hired a top marketing firm, media coverage and exposure, millions in payouts...

Tap, Tap, Tap, very good!

[Celtic]

Seems I really hit the nail on the head in post #74 before the second round of KT questions ever came out.

[Sweet Marissa]

Seems I really hit the nail on the head in post #74 before the second round of KT questions ever came out.
You sure did, and you're not alone in your thinking. It's apparent that the WPA is looking out for itself instead of its players.

[onepocketchump]

@ John,

"The Women and Juniors were relegated to second class status and their World Championships are barely even noticed and done in obscure places under a different format than the men's WPC. "

I guess that you never visited such a tournament. I am very sorry that you think that way, but it is not true. Ask the youth from the Europeans or World Championship how they think about the tournament and location. As coach of the Dutch yout I can say they are great, just as good as the WPC!!! Indeed there are less press, but you have that with most sports. [/qupte]

Then you guessed wrong. I was one of the sponsors of the 1997 World Championships and was on the dais for the awards presentation. This is the problem when you argue based on assumptions.

[quote]

"Don't get me wrong - the men's WPC under Barry Hearn is MORE exciting and more of a test of skill than the same event under the WPA."

Don't mix up a production company with a world pool organization. You cannot compare them. You could be happy that the WPA does a lot of buisiness with Matchroom, as they do that for the game.

Then you complain with the qualifying system of the WPC, well they were made with all the members of the WPA together with Matchroom. You can find them here: http://www.worldpoolchampionship.com/qualification_system.asp

I think that if you want to Qualify and you have these rules: Category 4
Winner and runner-up of all UPA-sanctioned events having a field of 48 or more players, which take place within a period that commences immediately after the previous year’s championship and finishes on the 15 May on the year of the World Pool Championship. In following years, the relevant period will revert to a 12 months cycle from May 16 to May 15 the following year.

Category 5
The winner and runner-up in the following events having taken place in the 12 months prior to the World Pool Championship: the US Open 9-Ball Championship, the BCA Open 9-Ball Championship

Category 6
The top four highest finishing players at the 2004 Canadian National 9-Ball Championship

Category 7
The top 12 ranked North American players on the UPA Seeding Rankings up to 15 May.

Category 8
Team America representatives at the previous three Mosconi Cups (2004, 2003, 2002)

If you are good enough you could qualify!

"The fact that Barry Hearn does a much better job of PRODUCING an event that is not only exciting but a real test of skill that crowns a deserving champion ought to be all the example you need to see that a promoter does a better job of elevating pool than the WPA does. Isn't it sad that the WC was seen LIVE and EVERY shot was seen and replayed in slow motion, everywhere EXCEPT the United States? Please outline exactly what the WPA did to rectify that situation?"

Matchroom works with the WPA so you should complement the WPA for working together with them. You cannot expect Matchroom to be the World Assosiation...???
And why wasn't it shown in the US, well because the TV bosses didn't buy it, not the fold of Matchroom and nothing to do with the WPA.
Like the IPT, it's very hard to get into the TV market, the deal they have now is like a 5 minute item in a sportsshow...WOW it's on prime time...it's still not broadcasting a tournament and THE REST OF THE WORLD cannot see a damn thing.

Berry

Thank you for so eloquently making my points. The WPA does "business" with Matchroom. My point exactly. The WPA will SELL OUT for the right price. I have not seen anything where the WPA questions the RULES of the IPT, the FORMAT of the IPT, the SELECTION process of the IPT, EXCEPT WHEN THE IPT DIDN'T PAY UP.

And, I know you are Dutch and all, but you apparently speak and read English well enough to understand the press release where it says that the King of the Hill event will be SHOWCASED on the sports show on Fox. In case you didn't read it or understand it, I suggest you go back and try again as Deno already pointed out to you.

I am not going to argue the qualification systems with you. My point is that it is quite different throughout the world not what you would expect from a so-called governing body of pool. What a stupid term by the way. The APA claims it is the governing body of amateur pool. Do they pay WPA sanctioning fees?

John

[DaveK]

Hey Dave...good to see you taking it in your stride/seat:D


I take it in the seat occasionally, no big deal.

I see the pool scene developing not unlike the motor racing world, with multiple professional circuits playing slightly different games. In racing you might have arguments like "who's a better driver, Paul Tracey or Ralph Schumacher ? " (applogies for any misspelling of names). Who knows, they never race against each other, but one makes more $ than the other. I guess that is OK, and I'm sure Paul and Ralph do not loose sleep over the issue. However I have a background in Athletics (track and field) where there is only one game that everyone plays. There was absolutely no arguement when Sergei Bubka was dominating the pole vault, he was #1 in everyones books, because there is only one book. Today there can be no argument that Thierry Lincou is the #1 ranked squash player in the world. Who's the #1 pool player in the world (rhetorical) ? I'd like to see the various pool disciplines evolve that way rather than become more fractured, but like my mother says "if wishes were horses beggars would ride".

Good luck to you in the events Colin, I'm sure many of us AZers will be following your progress through the brackets.

Dave

[BlackDragon]

....like since theres a dress code for IPT players and truly trudeau says he wants to appeal to the hip hop crowd as well, everyone should wear a baseball cap backwards

[RED NAXELA]

We may all beweep our outcast state and trouble deaf heaven with our bootless cries about how crappy KT's rules are, but in the end it's the GOLDEN RULE at work: he who has the gold makes the rules. And he who goes all the way and beat Sigel, despite the rules, will get the gold.

[Tbeaux]

Hmmm...Sanctioning huh...and what would these organizations do if KT went ahead and accepted ALL membership applications and then submitted HIS sanctioning fee to them to have members of the IPT participate in WPA events??

Terry

[Snapshot9]

I think the dress code is appropriate. Many
organizations have dress codes for playing in their
tournaments. They are professionals, and should
reflect that when they compete. They should, however,
not make them shoot in attire deemed uncomfortable so
as to hinder their performance (wear sport coats to the
event, but not required to shoot in them).

The 'Gangsta' look has no place here or the NBA for that
matter. It is a FAD, and not a cultural heritage as proclaimed.
Grow up, little boys would be my words to those that find
religion in that style. You are professionals, not street urchins.

[sjm]

I think the dress code is appropriate. Many
organizations have dress codes for playing in their
tournaments. They are professionals, and should
reflect that when they compete. They should, however,
not make them shoot in attire deemed uncomfortable so
as to hinder their performance (wear sport coats to the
event, but not required to shoot in them).

The 'Gangsta' look has no place here or the NBA for that
matter. It is a FAD, and not a cultural heritage as proclaimed.
Grow up, little boys would be my words to those that find
religion in that style. You are professionals, not street urchins.

Tap, tap, tap. Nicely put.

[bgb]

Well, here's what I think, in case anybody cares, and I may not have all the facts.

The WPA offered to sanction the IPT tournaments for a fee, Trudeau claims that the fee was $150,000 which sounds high to me but let's assume it's true (maybe it's based on a purse percentage). Trudeau flatly declined so this is the tactic the WPA is pursuing to combat his refusal.

To me this is akin to someone coming into the world of golf and putting on a $1 billion tournament, with $500 million to the winner. The PGA then says to that guy that they will sanction his tournament for a $10 million fee (sounds like a lot but it's only 1% of the money in the purse). They guy refuses and basically says to the PGA "all of the players will play in my tournament whether you ban them or not because you've never been able to offer this kind of money before. I have a golf course for them to play on and a bunch of money - what do I need the PGA tour for?"

As a recourse, the PGA says to it's players the following: "The PGA is not sanctioning the $1 billion tournament. We offered to work with the organizer and he refused. The PGA has been in the game for years and years and, through it's tournaments, paid off monies far in excess of what is being offered here. Though it has never offered the prize funds as seen in the new event, it's longevity speaks for itself. We cannot stop any player from competing in the new tournament so if you want to go and take a chance on this organizer and his tourament, and his promised 'events' please feel free. BUT DON"T COME BACK!"

What would you do if you were one of the golfers facing this choice?

Now granted the WPA is not the PGA, make no mistake about it. And PGA golfers are in a much different financial situation than pool players, no doubt about that. However, the WPA has been around doing their thing, good or bad, for quite some time, and I think their point to their players is that they were here yesterday, and they're going to be here tomorrow. With the IPT, there are no such guarantees.

I read about how Trudeau dealt with the WPA situation and I disapprove. I much favor the solution of another deep-pocket promoter, Barry Hearn, who when he decided to get into the game of pool worked WITH the powers that be in the game so that the event he promotes would be as successful as possible in the current climate, and that it would be legitimate.

According to the article Trudeau simply hung up on the WPA after he heard the size of their fee. Why not work with them - say something like, "well I can't pay you that right now, because all the money is tied up in the advertised prize fund. How about instead you sanction my events for the first year for free, and in exchange I'll provide you with free promotional advertising space in my venues and TV coverage for your own events. Then if things are successful after the first year we can talk about a fee for sanctioning." I mean, this would be the kind of negotiating I could approve of.

I know Barry Hearn fairly well and I can promise you that he didn't pay the WPA anything like $150,000 (I doubt he paid anything), but he has WPA sanctioning. My guess is that he cut a deal, because that's what pros do. The kind of move Trudeau pulls to just flat out refuse them, and then laugh about how he did it in the press is brutal, and it does no one any good whatsoever. It makes him look bad and it makes them look bad.

[Snapshot9]

comparing the WPA to the PGA is ludricrous. The WPA does not have the
integrity, longevity, or the power that the PGA has in golf. Second, during
the first 6 months of 2003, 18 Professional golfers had made over 1 million
dollars. (It was published in the newspaper). Thirdly, after 2 years of tours
for the IPT, the WPA will be pleading with Kevin to sanction, and will make
concessions. As one succeeds, it causes others to fail. Some of these other
organizations could find themselves in trouble down the line if they are not
smart. Money is an ace in the hole for Poolplayers, especially if it also raises
there sport up along the way with due recognition, endorsements, sponsors,
being on TV more, additional outside offers, etc.. Kmart was the main store
once before Wal-Mart came along.

[Williebetmore]

My name is Timberly (I didn't realize how much "T" looks like "K" :rolleyes: )

I still haven't seen your name... your surname, not the one your choosing to hide behind.

T-Girl,
We completely agree with you, everyone should reveal their personal identity on the internet.

Signed,
Mark Twain
John Wayne
O. Henry
George Eliot

P.S. - People who use their real names are much more credible.

Signed,
Joseph Goebbels
P.T. Barnum

[Colin Colenso]

It is interesting that the APBU makes no specific mention that IPT players will be banned.

There are rumblings that in fact this was a badly timed announcement that was actually directed to stem the activities of Dragon Promotions in Korea.

And that, at this time it is unlikely that IPT players will be banned from any WPA events such as US. Open, WPC etc.

Just a possibility...we'll have to wait for more information.

[Dr. Dissent]

It is interesting that the APBU makes no specific mention that IPT players will be banned.

There are rumblings that in fact this was a badly timed announcement that was actually directed to stem the activities of Dragon Promotions in Korea.

And that, at this time it is unlikely that IPT players will be banned from any WPA events such as US. Open, WPC etc.

Just a possibility...we'll have to wait for more information.

Colin, I sure hope the ban is lifted in Asia. In the past years, the WPA had issued "advice" to the Continental Federations about non-sanctioned events in the U.S. but a ban was never imposed to the players. This time, after discussion at the WPA General Assembly, the APBU went public and took the first step to impose a ban on any non-sanctioned event. They were not specific about the IPT but you could "see through it."

The South American Confederation (CPB) forwarded the APBU message to their member countries, saying they would also follow the APBU and impose a ban to their players. CPB players hardly go to Asia, except for the World Pool Championships (Morro Paez, and Ernesto Dominguez being the exception since they live in the West Coast of U.S.A) therefore, the ban must have been imposed because of the IPT.

The CPB has about six players in the IPT list.

Roland Acosta - Aruba
Alejandro Carvajal - Chile
Aaron Franken - Aruba
Rafael Gonzalez - Venezuela
Gunnar Leonardo - Aruba
Jerry Calderon - Venezuela

The APBU has a few players in the IPT Roster, mainly top guns of member countries (Bustamante, Reyes, Manalo, Parica, to name a few). I guess it would not be fitting to ban these players from APBU Tournaments; therefore, it is possible that the APBU may be "thinking" about the IPT ban, and since no specific reference was made, they could "come out clean" and say that there was no intention to ban their players from the IPT.

We will have to wait and see what happens after the first IPT event...in the meantime, I just hope the ban is lifted altogether.

[pooltchr]

Let me see if I have this straight...
I own a business.
I take applications, and hire 150 employees.
I pay them a LOT of money.
I tell them they are free to work for my competition any time they want and still remain in my employ.
The potential applicants are free to choose whether or not to apply.
I put absolutely no restrictions on them as far as what they do outside my company.
I refuse to pay my competition for the right to run my business.

HOW AM I THE BAD GUY?????????????????????

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, I sure hope the ban is lifted in Asia. In the past years, the WPA had issued "advice" to the Continental Federations about non-sanctioned events in the U.S. but a ban was never imposed to the players. This time, after discussion at the WPA General Assembly, the APBU went public and took the first step to impose a ban on any non-sanctioned event. They were not specific about the IPT but you could "see through it."

The South American Confederation (CPB) forwarded the APBU message to their member countries, saying they would also follow the APBU and impose a ban to their players. CPB players hardly go to Asia, except for the World Pool Championships (Morro Paez, and Ernesto Dominguez being the exception since they live in the West Coast of U.S.A) therefore, the ban must have been imposed because of the IPT.

The CPB has about six players in the IPT list.

Roland Acosta - Aruba
Alejandro Carvajal - Chile
Aaron Franken - Aruba
Rafael Gonzalez - Venezuela
Gunnar Leonardo - Aruba
Jerry Calderon - Venezuela

The APBU has a few players in the IPT Roster, mainly top guns of member countries (Bustamante, Reyes, Manalo, Parica, to name a few). I guess it would not be fitting to ban these players from APBU Tournaments; therefore, it is possible that the APBU may be "thinking" about the IPT ban, and since no specific reference was made, they could "come out clean" and say that there was no intention to ban their players from the IPT.

We will have to wait and see what happens after the first IPT event...in the meantime, I just hope the ban is lifted altogether.

I'm thinking the same way regarding the lifting of the ban by the APBU.

The two main tourneys that the IPT players, and perhaps those who want to attend the qualifier, and 2 open event entrants would be the WPC and the San Miguel Asian Open. I'm pretty sure the decision is mainly in the hands of Matchroom and ESPN Star Sports who really control these events. If the APBU, or Chinese Taiwan Billiards Association (CTBA) or WPA demands too much they may be dropped from any official involvement.

Frankly I think Taiwan, much of the efforts coming through Mr.Tu, have been tremendous to the sport. Taiwan has become a model of professional pool success that many countries' associations would love to replicate.

Perhaps I don't understand all the forces at play behind the scenes, but it does seem to me the WPA and APBU and other associations would be all better served by a more positive, compromising approach. Dare I say an approach that offers benefits to the IPT rather than threatens sanctions. No point complaining that they would spend the money to further the sport via x and y programs. Offer something the IPT could clearly see the benefit in supporting. Show a willingness to be flexible. No-one who's putting 40 mill into a business strategy wants to invite in a bureacracy who's raison detre' seems ony to be threat of sanctions and promises to spend their money as benefactors to irrelevant interests. Remember with sanctioning comes the necessity for approval of many operational procedures. Who would want to add such complexity and delays to an already very challenging task in developing a new sports/entertainment/ marketing business.

The IPT is really a dream come true for the WPA, if only they were prepared to offer their services in a way that appeared attracting. It seems instead their attitude was "Hey, who do you think you are running an event without seeking our approval, don't you know you better pay up or else will do all we can to put you out of business?"

As I sell sponsorships for pool as my job, I know if I talked to partners and potential sponsors this way I'd be out of business in the blink of an eye.

Using force or coercion requires that one has great political or financial strength. Thankfully the WPA does not have that strength I believe. I say thankfully because I believe the use of force or coercion to be against the best interests of positive development.

Anyway, this is a plenty long enough rant, to conclude I hope the WPA and affiliated associations concerned can work toward offering benefits, rather than threats, but maybe they can't and this battle will go head to head for a good while longer.

[vagabond]

Anyway, this is a plenty long enough rant, to conclude I hope the WPA and affiliated associations concerned can work toward offering benefits,



Do not deprecate youself.To those people who do not have understanding of the structure of International sports organizations or people who do not care to know about others other than America ,your comments may appear as gibberish.Your comments are based on your experience and indepth knowledge u possess.I hope the ABPU & WPA pays attention to your comments/recomendations and change their position.