cue lathe - What's a beginner to buy?

[Strange_Days]

Hi again to everyone,

I've been looking through lots of the previous posts and trying to determine what I need to start making a cue or two. First off I plan to do this as a HOBBY, not a job. I have a good job so I want to do this for fun, to make something that my son ( almost 6 months old ) would be proud to play with and maybe grandchildren years from now. I have enjoyed woodworking for a few years now but I need something to allow me to be more creative and combine my passions.

I have a wood lathe, works well for what it is supposed to do but the more I read the more it seems that I need a metal lathe to do many of the jobs that I would come across even in normal repairs for cues. I have ordered Chris Hightowers cue building book so once I get that it should shed some light for me on the process to get started correctly but I would like to find out what all the experienced cue builders on here would do if they were starting out in my shoes? I really don't mind spending a bit of money on this to get quality equipment, after all where I live most people own snowmobiles that run $10-15,000 to buy plus $20 an hour in gas as their hobby and I have bought and know the value of good equipment for woodworking. I would like to start out as reasonably as possible even so. I would like to know what people think of this lathe

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture?&NETID=1106111030050879616&NTITEM=CT043

I am looking pretty closely at the cuesmith deluxe as well but I don't want something that I will grow out of or that does not or cannot have the capabilities that I want or need. I could probably take a trip down to a grizzly warehouse and buy a lathe from them if they have better offerings for me as its only a 5 hour drive from Toronto.

I guess I'm rambling quite a bit but I'd just like to know if you think a full size metal lathe is the way to go, or a cuesmith or if I should just start by buying a mini lathe and start doing tips and ferrules. It seems as though I'm going to have lots of local business for doing tips at least since no one can do them worth a damn up here. I've already had one poolhall willing to give me all their business and probably more when I go looking. Any advice would be very much appreciated as I will soon have to start convincing my wife that we need another $4000 tool taking up room in our garage :)

Thanks to all,

Matt LeClerc

[rhncue]

Hi again to everyone,

I've been looking through lots of the previous posts and trying to determine what I need to start making a cue or two. First off I plan to do this as a HOBBY, not a job. I have a good job so I want to do this for fun, to make something that my son ( almost 6 months old ) would be proud to play with and maybe grandchildren years from now. I have enjoyed woodworking for a few years now but I need something to allow me to be more creative and combine my passions.

I have a wood lathe, works well for what it is supposed to do but the more I read the more it seems that I need a metal lathe to do many of the jobs that I would come across even in normal repairs for cues. I have ordered Chris Hightowers cue building book so once I get that it should shed some light for me on the process to get started correctly but I would like to find out what all the experienced cue builders on here would do if they were starting out in my shoes? I really don't mind spending a bit of money on this to get quality equipment, after all where I live most people own snowmobiles that run $10-15,000 to buy plus $20 an hour in gas as their hobby and I have bought and know the value of good equipment for woodworking. I would like to start out as reasonably as possible even so. I would like to know what people think of this lathe

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture?&NETID=1106111030050879616&NTITEM=CT043

I am looking pretty closely at the cuesmith deluxe as well but I don't want something that I will grow out of or that does not or cannot have the capabilities that I want or need. I could probably take a trip down to a grizzly warehouse and buy a lathe from them if they have better offerings for me as its only a 5 hour drive from Toronto.

I guess I'm rambling quite a bit but I'd just like to know if you think a full size metal lathe is the way to go, or a cuesmith or if I should just start by buying a mini lathe and start doing tips and ferrules. It seems as though I'm going to have lots of local business for doing tips at least since no one can do them worth a damn up here. I've already had one poolhall willing to give me all their business and probably more when I go looking. Any advice would be very much appreciated as I will soon have to start convincing my wife that we need another $4000 tool taking up room in our garage :)

Thanks to all,

Matt LeClerc

To be a full time cue maker and expect to make a living at it you definatly need at least one 12X36 or 13X40 lathe plus a mill, a pantograph or CNC mill and many other related tools. With this said, to make a few cues a year as a hobbiest then this is way over kill. A Hightower set-up or a Joe porper lathe will certainly suffice with a very large saving in money and time getting started in your adventure. These light machines don't take up a lot of room and are designed for building cues. Your larger lathes are designed for making metal parts so they need to have things done to them to make them efficient at working with wood. Their tooling is larger henceforth more expensive.
Start off with the light machines to get your feet wet and if all works out and you need more production then start up-grading to larger machinery.
I, myself, have 11 lathes, a mill, 2 shaft machines and I'm building another, 3 CNC mills and numerous other tools in an 1800' shop but the biggest part of this stuff was picked up second hand over the years as buys came along. Each of my lathes are set-up for one operation saving time in set-ups. This is definatly not needed for a hobbiest.
Dick

[rwomel]

Hi again to everyone,

I've been looking through lots of the previous posts and trying to determine what I need to start making a cue or two. First off I plan to do this as a HOBBY, not a job.
I did months of research, and am a garage hobbist cue builder. Chris's book is my guide, and I have one of his Dlx Cuesmith lathes and his inlay machine. I also have a wood lathe gathering dust, and a 7 x 14 metal lathe. I use the metal lathe for a variety of cuts. And I have a Unigue Cue Companion lathe also, Level III.

I guess I'm rambling quite a bit but I'd just like to know if you think a full size metal lathe is the way to go, or a cuesmith or if I should just start by buying a mini lathe and start doing tips and ferrules.
I also started with tips and ferrules and shaft cleaning, and worked my way up to the Unigue Cue Companion. It was there that I realized the unit was not as accurate as I wanted it to be for many jobs. Not to knock the machine, it is great for what it is built for, and does a lot of jobs very well. I wanted to build cues and needed a larger more accurate machine. So I saved and bought the Hightower setup.

Any advice would be very much appreciated as I will soon have to start convincing my wife that we need another $4000 tool taking up room in our garage :)
That's the easy part, wait till you start filling the garage with WOOD !! ;)
And a dust collector system, exhaust system, table saw, band saw, and a spray room. ;) Hey !! We hobbist have our priorities, now don't we.

To sum up everything, the previous post is correct IMHO. The Hightower lathe is plenty to do cues. I have already made 10 in 1/2 year. I bought semi finished parts and that quickened the "turn and wait" time. I also see your point as I have wished for a 1,000 pound gorilla when boring out wood, but that is only 5% of my problems, which I create when a new design pops in my head. Go with the Hightower, it was designed to build cues, and it does everthing ery well. Mr Hightower is a wealth of knowledge, along with all the other cue builder on-line here. If you do go into "full production", the lathe you linked to is the next step. I know, after 2 years of being a hobbist builder, that is my next step.

Good Luck
Richard Womeldorf
McAllen, Tx

[mark smith]

hi matt
just thought i would let you know that the lathe in the link you posted is exactly like my grizzly. i suggest you get a grizzly catalogue or shop thier online store, you will save 800-900 dollars. i love my grizzly. i added the sargon digital readout and got several other things when i bought mine. i drove to springfield, mo to pick it up and my grand total was $3700 and change, the d.r.o. alone was $995. my first piece of dedicated cue building equipment was a porper "b" model, i still use it for: cutting v grooves, sanding, buffing, tips, and ferrules. the things it does not do well: shaft cutting, stainless joints. as for going with a smaller machine to start i would give hightower a shot, i have done business with him for several years and he has never misrepresented anything i bought from him. based on that and what others have to say about his stuff i would buy from him if i had the need. hope this helps. mark

[DaveK]

hi matt
just thought i would let you know that the lathe in the link you posted is exactly like my grizzly. i suggest you get a grizzly catalogue or shop thier online store, you will save 800-900 dollars. i love my grizzly. i added the sargon digital readout and got several other things when i bought mine. i drove to springfield, mo to pick it up and my grand total was $3700 and change, the d.r.o. alone was $995. my first piece of dedicated cue building equipment was a porper "b" model, i still use it for: cutting v grooves, sanding, buffing, tips, and ferrules. the things it does not do well: shaft cutting, stainless joints. as for going with a smaller machine to start i would give hightower a shot, i have done business with him for several years and he has never misrepresented anything i bought from him. based on that and what others have to say about his stuff i would buy from him if i had the need. hope this helps. mark

Note that BusyBee is a Toronto outfit, and the original poster is from Timmins, Ont, Canada, a little north or Toronto (a lot north of Toronto if you are from Europe). The prices on the BusyBee sight are in $Canadian. Grizzly on the other hand is a US based company, with prices in $US, and I don't think they ship to Canada (but he could go there as he mentioned). They could easily be selling the same imported lathe, simply private labeled differently. BTW, I have found that House Of Tools (another Canadian supplier) often has better prices than BusyBee or KBC, but I haven't looked at these lathes pricing.

Dave

[JoeyInCali]

hi matt
just thought i would let you know that the lathe in the link you posted is exactly like my grizzly. i suggest you get a grizzly catalogue or shop thier online store, you will save 800-900 dollars. i love my grizzly.
Mark did you get the belt drive one ?
What chuck do you use?

[Zagiflyer]

Hi Matt:

I'm a hobbyist cuemaker/repairman and I started out doing what you are doing. I ordered Chris Hightower's book and videos and had them for about a year before I bought a lathe. I looked at everything that was on the market and decided on a Deluxe Cuesmith. One of my main requirements (even more than money) was that I wanted a machine that I could put into my basement that would run on 110. That pretty much ruled out huge metal lathes. The problem with metal lathes is that to get an acceptable distance between centers for cue work (30 inches or more) you need to buy a huge machine. Some of the smaller metal lathes that are available from Travers and Grizzly and places like that would be nice if you could get them with an extended bed but you can't get a small metal lathe without a small distance between centers. With a metal lathe you end up with a much larger, heavier, and more powerful machine than you really need for cue building.

I am very happy with my Cuesmith and I think that it's a great tool for someone like me who will build one cue at a time and not use the lathe continuously. Chris is a really creative guy and the Cuesmith is well engineered, it's an amazingly flexible little machine. Chris also stands behind his products and offers great customer support.....this is worth it's weight in gold when you are just getting started. The Cuesmith is designed specifically for cuemaking and has some great features like a large spindle diameter with chucks at each end and an extended bed on the left side of the lathe where you can support a cue with one of the well designed steady-rests. I also really like the fact that you can remove the tool carriage (and everything else that rides on the main rail for that matter) from the bed when you are drilling and tapping from the tailstock. This gets the carriage out of the way and allows you to get really close to your work. The indexing and router attachment allows a lot of flexibility with this machine. If you buy the Deluxe Cuesmith with the taper bars, power feed, extra steady rest and the tooling you need you are ready to go. I had watched his videos and read his books numerous times before I got my lathe and I was fooling around with my collection of "practice house cues" within one hour of taking the lathe out of the box. If you are doing this as a hobby or on a limited production basis I think that the Deluxe Cuesmith is the easiest way to get started. In addition to the lathe you will realistically need to spend another 1 to 2 K minimum on tools, tips, ferrules, wood, joint and butt materials, adhesives, abrasives, wraps, taps drills, etc, etc, etc. You can get most of this stuff from Chris. I've also had good luck with Atlas, Prather, Bell Forest Products, Schmelke Cues and Grizzly industrial. I would recommend you aquire some old house cues and "experiment" with them for practice. Replace tips, ferrules, tenons, add a wrap, add a joint and rings, butt caps, re-taper a shaft, make a new shaft, cut the butt in two and add a new handle, re-finish a cue, etc. You can learn a lot quickly and inexpensively and if you destroy a cue or two or three (and you probably will) you toss the thing in the firewood pile and try again. Be patient and have fun, it's really enjoyable but can also be very frustrating at times. I've been doing this for a year and although I can make a very playable and nice looking but simple cue from scratch I still consider myself to be in junior kindergarten as far as cuemaking is concerned. There's a lot to learn.

I think that the Cuesmith is almost the perfect machine for a small operation. It is a rather light-duty machine and has vibration issues and limited torque but cue building doesn't require a massive lathe. With the Cuesmith its important to be patient: go slow, take multiple small cuts instead of big cuts, use the router when turning anything longer than a few inches and bore bigger holes with a boring bar instead of trying to make the machine drive a big drill bit through something. I wouldn't attemp to drill anything larger than a 1/2 inch hole with the Cuesmith and even that is difficult sometimes. I use increasingly larger bit sizes to get to 1/2 inch instead of just trying to drill a 1/2 hole.

If I could have my dream machine it would be a metal lathe about twice the weight of the Cuesmith (200-300 lbs) with a larger RPM range and a gear or smoother belt drive system. The physical size of the machine would be about like the Cuesmith with the large spindle, dual chucks and extended bed on both sides of the headstock. I would also prefer a screw actuated tailstock feed for more precise control and more fine control of the X and Y cariage controls. As long as I'm dreaming a digital readout and CNC control of the X and Y axis would be awesome for tapering and would eliminate the need for mechanical type taper bars. Having said that, for what I need and what you are looking for the Deluxe Cuesmith is pretty close to perfect, I really enjoy using mine and you won't be disappointed.

Ken N.

[mark smith]

hey joey

my grizzly is gear head. i have a smithy (belts) i bought new about 12 years ago. yeah the grizzly may be a little louder but speed changes are more, easier/quicker, and i don't get grease on my hands. have fits off and on over the years with the smithy motors, replacements have fried immediately, capacitors smoked and on and on and on. they finally fessed up that the guys in china sometimes do not follow prints and just start hooking up wires until the get it to work, then when you replace the motor it is a crap shoot as to wheter you can get it right without totally frying the new one. the grizzly popped a capacitor at about 6 months, no other problems (almost 2 years old). the grizzly model i got came with the quick change tool post, it is a cheap knock off of the phase II but works almost as good (one of the holders will only go on the 'y' side and not the 'x'. the digital readout was a nightmare to install but worth it.

[mark smith]

missed question 2

it is the 3 jaw chuck that came with it. i also added a smaller chuck on the back side to hold stuff centered

[Zims Rack]

Chris,
What is the current wait time for a Deluxe Cuesmith Lathe?
This is an excellent thread! Nice info from all posters!
I too have a Cuesmith Lathe, but I have the Mid-Size. I plan to have a Deluxe in the next4 months or so.

Thanks,
Zim

[Strange_Days]

Wow thanks for all the replies. I've gotten a great load of information to help me along so far. It seems like Chris hightower must put out a quality machine to get that many people willing to support it. I still am not decided on how I should proceed yet but I am getting closer. Can't wait to get Chris's book and tear it apart.

I've got a few more questions if you guys don't mind answering.

If you do go into "full production", the lathe you linked to is the next step. I know, after 2 years of being a hobbist builder, that is my next step.

rwomel, wouldn't it make more sense then to spend just a little more and get a machine that can handle everything right from the get-go? I do not know how much it will cost over the cost of the machine to turn a 12X36 metal lathe into a fully working cue building lathe. If anyone has a rough guess I'd like to hear it. presently it'll be about $4000 cdn for Chris's machine to my door and about $3600 for a brand new 12x36 lathe in my link above. maybe less once I really go about looking at all my options.

In addition to the lathe you will realistically need to spend another 1 to 2 K minimum on tools, tips, ferrules, wood, joint and butt materials, adhesives, abrasives, wraps, taps drills, etc, etc, etc.

I planned on buying a small amount to start for the actual cue building, I want to get my feet wet by doing repairs and "playing" around with house cues but I do want enough to start building a few in the first year. What should I get right away that is essential (meaning how much shaft wood, blanks or just hard maple? What will I need for finishing a cue the best way without a dedicated spray booth and everything associated?(I do have a compresser that I use to spray some things but nothing so fine as I would need for cues) What do you guys use to protect from harmful effects of the woods you use in cues? after all I'd like a hobby I could enjoy for many years down the road. how much should I set aside for calipers, dials, cutting tools etc?) I will just purchase a bunch of tips, ferrules, wraps and all that right away to get right at the repair stuff.

I'm sure I could ask a hundred more questions but its after 12 and I should really save some room for people to post back :) thanks for all the great replies and help

P.S.

That's the easy part, wait till you start filling the garage with WOOD !! And a dust collector system, exhaust system, table saw, band saw, and a spray room.

I'm already getting there my friend. A few years of woodworking projects and I have a corner of my garage taken up with wood already :) not to mention my woodworking machinery eating up a large portion of the rest.


Matt LeClerc

[Cue Crazy]

Not to discourage, but Honestly cuework is a money pit like few others no matter which way you go LOL, that's why you really have to love it, have very deep pockets, or both. All the stuff needed just keeps piling up, and needs replenished constantly.

If i had It to do over I would have got the deluxe to begin with because it's ready to go without any special modification, and can handle most repair work to bring more money in for more equipment.

Yep, there are just a few things that a machine lathe could be used better for, such as extremely deep boring operations used in building cues, and some threading operations, but there are ways around that when learning, and still can make a really decent cue in the time being. Metal lathes could always be added, and setup for individual operations later. I would still use the deluxe for alot of repair because of the ease.

I don't know if I'll ever have as many lathes as some of our fellow members, but I imagine, I'll have atleast 6 or 7 in the coming years, with most setup just to do 1 single task per lathe, so I don't have to keep setting up breaking down and setting back up again. you can waste alot of time doing that, and it could be better spent with more setups. I'd always have a use for the deluxe either way. His book will give some better ideas. the videos might be worth checking out also to see It in action.

The main difference I see is one will take more time to modify and setup then the other, so really depends on what you want to do with it, and how soon you want to use it. Peoples opinions vary on that one, so really just a personal choice. Myself I want as many of both types I can afford to get My hands on :D .

Greg

[rwomel]

rwomel, wouldn't it make more sense then to spend just a little more and get a machine that can handle everything right from the get-go? I do not know how much it will cost over the cost of the machine to turn a 12X36 metal lathe into a fully working cue building lathe. If anyone has a rough guess I'd like to hear it. presently it'll be about $4000 cdn for Chris's machine to my door and about $3600 for a brand new 12x36 lathe in my link above. maybe less once I really go about looking at all my options.

Greg, in the prior post, just about sums up everything. If you look at being a hobbiest, invision what I do in a normal day. Work at making money during the day, and SOMETIMES have a few hours to walk out into my garage and view the mess.

Now cuebuilding is really a lot of turning square wood round. Not the thrill you would expect. And then waiting, then a little turning, and then a little waiting, and so on. So during the waiting, you need to build some ring billets, those fancy rings made of wood and other materials. So lets turn some wood down to round. Humm, now lets build some butt sleeves, so turn some wood round. Humm, lets do a fancy handle, so lets turn some wood round. Humm, lets do a shaft. What do we do class?

Once a lot of wood is round, assembly is pretty straightforward. Then the assembled butt is... turned some more. Excuse the rambling, but beside MANY hours doing inlays and point work, the majority of cuebuilding as a hobbiest is turning wood round accuratly. And with that here lays the time problem, Greg spoke about. It would be nice to have different machines available to do differnet jobs (stages) of the building process, instead of resets of one machine for different stages. But we are hobbiests, are we not.

The metal lathe has a big enough spindle bore, and long enough, and you could taper by offsetting the tailstock, without taper bar(s). Adapting bars to hthe big lathe can be done. Your issue is for the dollars spent why not buy the big lathe. I have no defense other than if you want to see if you enjoy building cues, and you didn't, then the big lathe will sell for less money second hand, than if you try selling a used Cuesmith.

When I said I am looking at a large lathe as my next step, I meant as an addition lathe to the Cuesmith. To walk before you run, with a lathe that is set up for building is a pleasure to use, and takes up minimal room.

Excuse me folks. I had many months of debating this issue with myself, and have gone the normal course of buying dust gathering equipment. Now my Cuesmith is the dust maker, and is used all the time. I wished I had bought it in the first place.

Your other comments still go the course of a hobbist, woods, parts, etc. You will put in a LOT of TIME building a cue. Frankly, I just don't know how cue builders make any money. It is a very rewarding hobby, if you like to create, and work with your hands. The few cues I have completed are so dear to me now, just like new born babies...how can I sell them? ;)

Good Luck and please excue the rambling (I had some time on my hands this morning)

Richard Womeldorf
McAllen, Tx

[Strange_Days]

Rwomel, and Cue Crazy you both make very strong arguments towards the cuesmith. I love the idea of getting a machine that I could unpack, and start working almost right away. As well I am not very familiar with metal lathes other than some minimal work with some very experienced machinists who were helping me out. Although I've only dealt with cuemakers in person that used large metal lathes I am leaning towards a deluxe as my first large purchase. I've even gotten close to convincing my wife on the deal and as we all know that's 90 percent of the work. building a cue is going to be childs play after that :)

I was looking at CNC machines online quite a bit today. Alignrite has a sweet looking cnc made exclusivly for cue building

http://www.alignritetool.com/cnc_router_poolcue.htm

Back to reality as I doubt I'll have $13500 burning a hole in my pocket anytime soon what would I be looking at to make up a cheap CNC and how would that compare to buying a panagraph or Chris's inlay machine. It seems expensive at $100 a shot every time I want a new design for an inlay but maybe I am missing something.

I really appreciate the great feedback you guys are giving me on all this, its exactly what I was looking for. I have to wait another few days yet before paypal will release my money to chris before he can send me his book. The wait is killing me.

Chris, if you are reading this I'd love to find out as well as Zims Rack above what kind of waiting period I would be looking at for a deluxe cuesmith if I choose to go that route. My playing cue tip is getting very low but I really don't want to pay $50 for a moori this year (going rate cdn at CCS ontario championshps in toronto the last two years) if I am going to be doing it myself soon :)

thanks again

Matt LeClerc

[cueman]

Rwomel, and Cue Crazy you both make very strong arguments towards the cuesmith. I love the idea of getting a machine that I could unpack, and start working almost right away.

Chris, if you are reading this I'd love to find out as well as Zims Rack above what kind of waiting period I would be looking at for a deluxe cuesmith if I choose to go that route. My playing cue tip is getting very low but I really don't want to pay $50 for a moori this year (going rate cdn at CCS ontario championshps in toronto the last two years) if I am going to be doing it myself soon :)

thanks again

Matt LeClerc
Hi Matt,
The wait on a Deluxe Cue Smith right now is about 10 weeks. Sometimes during the middle of the winter it can get to be about twice that long. Extra patterns for the inlay machine are $100 each or 5 for $400. But you make your own patterns and you can also put parts of various shapes off the patterns you have to make other patterns. The book and videos go into that a little clearer. The small CNC set up I now use for inlays runs $4500, but it is a little hard to learn to use.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

[mark smith]

hi again matt

sounds like you are getting loads of info so a little more won't hurt. the alignrite cnc system is not a stand alone cue building machine. you have to have a lathe for drilling, boring, tapping, etc. although you could write progams to cut tennons i also do that on the manual lathe. the alignrite machine was a huge investment for me but i love it. my retirement is tied up in cue equipment and materials that will sell for pennies on the dollar at an auction some day but i'm happy. good luck. mark

[Strange_Days]

Hi Mark,

Its nice that you can do something so rewarding in retirement. The alignrite machine looks great, maybe if I save every penny I make for, well, a LONG time I will get one :)

I am getting pretty convinced that a hightower lathe is going to be the way to go to start for me. I do have a promising lead on a JET 1340A tho. its the geared head 13x40 lathe that they offer. My friend works for a company that sells JET equipment and is looking into getting it to me for cost (My payment I have to build him a cue when I get going :) ).

Do you ever see a deluxe cuesmith for sale second hand? I see some porper model B's around and some unique lathes but never a cuesmith.

Chris, that's probably a testamony to your equipment!

Thanks, Matt

[ShootingArts]

I am one more person considering building cues. However I owned a jet lathe and bridgeport mill until a move a few years ago and still knock around in a friend's machine shop. I seem to be the negative cylinder specialist. Sounds a lot better than saying I spend a lot of time drilling, threading, and cleaning up holes!

Getting on to the subject of the post, the report is that all of the chinese made machines start with the same castings that they build machines from. I owned a jet and run a jet and an enco now along with a jet mill. I thought to save money and buy the grizzly next time as it seemed I was paying a lot for gray paint on the jet and the grizzly's look almost as nice. However reading on the dedicated machine forums I find that jet has super service and grizzly seems lacking. Everybody has to make their own choices but I am going to pay a few hundred extra for the jet if and when I buy a metal lathe.

Food for thought: Blud is a dealer for jet and could probably get you anything you want and you would be supporting someone who always gives generously of his time and knowledge on these forums. He also offers a tricked out jet lathe ready to build cues on, and a handful of other machines for cue building with new ones being designed all of the time.

Chris Hightower offers the cuesmith line of lathes and accessories. Seems like I am likely to be dealing with both Chris and Blud in the future. The only question is what I will be buying first. Reading this thread, if I was trying to get started to build cues in a reasonably rapid fashion it looks like Blud's new shaft turner and the cuesmith deluxe with bells and whistles might be the least costly option. The one catch is I like the capability to actually cut threads, not just use dies and taps and I believe a metal lathe would still be needed for that. I do have to note that this is a personal "like" and not a must to build good cues.

Hu

[mark smith]

hi matt

i did not make myself very clear, i just meant i spent my retirement fund on cue equipment (and materials). i own a pool room, sell and service tables, and do the cue stuff. central arkansas is not exactly the hot spot for pocket billiards so we have to do a little bit of everything to make a living. as for the used purpose built cue equipment it is about like hen's teeth (rare) one of the forum threads did have a link to an ebay auction selling a lathe and inlay machines. cannot remember if it was from chris or unique, if i see it again i will add a post on here for you. good luck. mark

[Zagiflyer]

Hi Matt:

Just a few more comments since you had a question about some of what I said. As far as other items in addition to your lathe; start small and get what you need. Atlas in Chicago and Prather will send you catalogs if you ask and they have all the little stuff. I bought a little of everything, for example, I bought various joint screws and inserts and taps to try all the types of joints (except uni-lock because of the excessive cost). Get some single wrap spools of irish linen, the taps and drills you need for sure, joint screws and steel+aluminum 3/8 screws for the handle joint, tips, ferrules, bumpers, tenon threaders (from Chris) etc. Try out the various materials from plastics to the different varieties of linen phenolics to see what you like.....they are all a little different to work with. Chris' book and videos have a lot of great information about materials and woods, they are a fantastic reference. As far as wood goes, it needs to sit for awhile so if you can afford to get some do it. I think that woods like plain maple, birdseye and curly maple, Bocote, Goncolo Alves, Purple heart, Rosewood and a few others are good to start with with along with small pieces of some others for rings work well. Again, Chris Hightower's book talks about the weights and stability characteristics of wood and which woods go together well to build a naturally weighted cue. Some combinations of wood just won't work together without coring out pieces and that's too much hassle for me at this point. I've personally had good luck with wood from Bell Forest Products (they will sell you small butt-sleeve sized pieces as well as bigger pieces and slabs and for $1 per square they will send them to you round if you want) and Shmelke cues. Shmelke has 30 inch round pieces of a few basic woods (they have a very limited selection) that are reasonably priced and seem to be very nice based on my very limited knowledge and experience. The Bocote and Goncolo Alves makes really pretty cues. I've also ordered some wood from Chris which was nice. Chris and some of the other makers (Shmelke and Atlas) also sell 4-point bar-cue style 30 inch spliced butt blanks that are good for your first attempt at a cue. I'm sure the better cue makers know a lot more about wood and have their own sources that they will never reveal but the wood I've gotten for the above places has made some pretty cues. I started with some final turned shaft blanks from Prather and Atlas because I didn't have a lot of time to wait between turnings. Now I buy first turned shaft blanks from Shmelke. You will probably ruin a few shafts at first because they can be really tricky to turn, even with taper bars sometimes. Next to finishing, making a really well tapered, straight and smooth shaft with smooth transitions on the taper segments has been the hardest thing for me.

The other comment I wanted to make was about inlays. I don't have an inlay machine and if I get one it will be from Chris. Keep in mind though that with the indexing on the Cuesmith and the router attachment you actually have a fully functioning milling machine for cues that will do a lot of stuff. Chris points this out in his book and he is right, there is A LOT of suff you can do with just the Cuesmith. Points, slots, dots, stacked veneers in slots, slotted rings in a zillion variations, "windows" and the list goes on and on. In the town where I live there is an old cue maker who has been making cues for 35+ years and has never had an inlay machine but does a lot with just slot and ring work. There's so many cues today with elaborate CNC inlays that the old-school slot, veneer and ring decorated cues actually stand out from the crowd. I plan to build cues for years before getting an inlay machine and I'm sure I won't run out of things I can do with indexing, router bits and laminating. It also depends on what you like, I've always had a fondness for for more basic, simply styled cues that aren't too "busy." I want my pool cues to look like pool cues :)

[Strange_Days]

Zagiflyer, Thats some great info there thanks. sometimes it seems as though there are a thousand and one things to buy to get started. I checked through the entire atlas website to get an idea of what is available and what is needed. I have a pretty good idea on what is needed for the main startup but some things I am unsure about. I would like to tell you guys what I have for tools and hopefully you can tell me what else I need:

Have:


Tablesaw
Drill press
Bandsaw
Wood lathe (hopefully convert to help out with cues)
Horizontal Borer
Mitre Saw
Compressor
2 1/4hp router combo
a variety of chisels/planes/drill bits etc..
Shopvac
Lots of unrelated construction equipment and stuff I can't remember right now because its 3am (graveyard shift)


Need:

Dial calipers - are the atlas ones good enough, should I buy expensive ones?

taps/dies - any help on what I should should buy here would be great, no clue

linen press - available at atlas, do you need one of these to put on a wrap, or anything else to put on leather wrap (I think that leather wrap will be a big hit here, the few people that have them rave about them all the time)

endmills - also available at atlas, do I need this?

now what am I missing? (closes eyes and prays)

I will be getting tips, ferrules(which come in way to many varieties btw), bumpers, joint screws, wraps, wood in many flavors (thanks Zagiflyer), and a whole boatload of other stuff I need I am sure in the coming months :)

Thanks again,

And Blud if you read this could you let me know what your cue building jet lathe runs for a price? probably out of my league but I'd hate not to ask and regret later.

Matt LeClerc

[Zagiflyer]

Matt:

You have plenty of woodworking equipment. I have my lathe, a crappy little bandsaw and a table saw. I wish I had all the stuff you have. Just get your lathe and some cue parts and you have what you need to start experimenting. I have a cheap digital caliper from Harbor Freight and it works fine.

As far as taps and dies are concerned I believe that Atlas and Prather offers packages that have what you need. I have a 3/8-10 for 3/8 joints (directly into wood shaft with no insert) and handle joints, a 3/8-16 for weight bolts, a 5/16-14 and 5/16-18 for those joints, a 7/16-14 for the brass joint inserts into shafts and a 8-32 for bumper screws. If you get into Uni-Lock and Radial Pin joints you need some special stuff. You can probably get these taps anywhere but the ones I got from Prather are undercut with a long shank and work well for cues. As far as "dies" are concerned, Chris makes really nice tenon threaders that go into the tailstock chuck. They come in two sizes, 5/16-18 for thread-on ferrules and 5/8-11 for metal joint collars.

For linen wraps I initially just polished a couple hardwood boards and put in a hinge and used that to press wraps and it worked fine. Later I bought a wood tool with the rollers on it as well (from Atlas I believe or maybe Prather) and it works even better. I don't know anything about leather wraps and I never tried to put one on. I understand that's it's very difficult to do well so I'll try that sometime well into the future when I have hopefully mastered some of the more simple operations.

You probably don't need any endmills for awhile. I'm just starting to experiment with inlays such as slotted rings and you can use straight router bits as endmills to cut slots with for starters. The endmills are used for cutting pockets for inlays and cutting very thin slots. You can also use an endmills in the router as cutoff tools for parting rings. Don't go crazy buying stuff.....as you start experimenting you will find out what you need and what you can get by without.

[Tommy-D]

> Other things you will need are typical machinists tools like Allen wrenches,tap handles,several different dial/test indicators,a set of 6" dial or digital calipers and a couple of micrometers. Hand tools like files,rifflers,a good deburring tool,and too many others to give a complete list can be found in lots of different places,and often are found cheap. Measuring tools are one thing,though,you do not want to be cheap about. A good 0-1" mike can cost about 80 bucks or more,even higher if you go with digital stuff,and a really good test indicator,like Interapid,are usually 200. It should go without saying that you should buy the best stuff you can afford,accurate measuring tools are worth their weight in gold. Search high and low for bargains too,I got a Mitutoyo digital mike for 60 bucks at my local pawn shop,the same one that matches my calipers,the newest update for that model has the matched set selling for 325 in most of the catalogs I have. Make friends with the most experienced machinists and toolmakers you can,their experience can make things easier on you when you ask questions about technique or setup,shortening your learning curve. Tommy D.

[Ring]

I am also building up my inventory of cuemaking equipment. I used to help out in a shop for about 4yrs until I sold what I had invested at the time and moved to another state and got married.

I searched hard for 6mos for a good lathe. I got a 13x36 clausing colchester MKII, also know as the American version of the Master lathe.

Granted its old, made in 1969, but its still better than any Chinesse lathe that you can buy today.

I only paid 1600 for the lathe, collet closer, 16 collets, taper attachement, live center and 2 dead centers. It had been in a high school machine shop since it was purchased in 1970. There was some careless damage, but barrings sound great and the ways in fine shape. Overall a tight machine

So, good to great deals are out there depending on where your located, you just need to look and have money ready to get a good deal.

Only thing I have bought that is special to cuemaking are taps. So far I have made all most all of what i need to do cue repair.

Next up is making a lathe for sanding and finish work.

But I am the type who would rather make and know how to make the equipment i need vs. buying it, like a Porper lathe and such. Plus I think its cheaper in the end.

[Strange_Days]

Well, I'm finally home after a two week refresher course for my real job. now back to the task of what I "want" to be doing :)

I visited MASE while I was in Toronto. Thank you Roy for the tour and explanation of everything, it was really helpful. It was great to get a little firshand knowledge of the woods, tools, and approach to cue making. I also got to hit with his cue just a little but I was VERY impressed with the hit.

Now back to business I've been scouring ads and have come across an ad for this lathe

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33274

The guy is asking $2800 cdn for it and says its been used once. He says he bought it, then the CM 13X40 lathe and decided once he set them up that he only needed the larger one and wants to sell this one. Now is the 36 inch between centers really enough or should I just scrap that and look for 40 inches between centers. Also, the Lathe MASE showed me last week he had a taper bar attached to the back. Do I need to buy a lathe with a taper attachment ability or can I modify any lathe for this task? Finally, I notice not many cuebuilders buy new machines to use, is there a reason for this? are the new machines (chinese) just not the same quality as old school lathes?

I may be able to work with the price a bit, he has had it for sale for a while. also he bought a stand for it for $450 here in Canada. The closest I can come to that is busybee lathe for around $3700 that I posted initially.

all comments are appreciated, thanks

Matt LeClerc

[Ring]

Well, I'm finally home after a two week refresher course for my real job. now back to the task of what I "want" to be doing :)

I visited MASE while I was in Toronto. Thank you Roy for the tour and explanation of everything, it was really helpful. It was great to get a little firshand knowledge of the woods, tools, and approach to cue making. I also got to hit with his cue just a little but I was VERY impressed with the hit.

Now back to business I've been scouring ads and have come across an ad for this lathe

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33274

The guy is asking $2800 cdn for it and says its been used once. He says he bought it, then the CM 13X40 lathe and decided once he set them up that he only needed the larger one and wants to sell this one. Now is the 36 inch between centers really enough or should I just scrap that and look for 40 inches between centers. Also, the Lathe MASE showed me last week he had a taper bar attached to the back. Do I need to buy a lathe with a taper attachment ability or can I modify any lathe for this task? Finally, I notice not many cuebuilders buy new machines to use, is there a reason for this? are the new machines (chinese) just not the same quality as old school lathes?

I may be able to work with the price a bit, he has had it for sale for a while. also he bought a stand for it for $450 here in Canada. The closest I can come to that is busybee lathe for around $3700 that I posted initially.

all comments are appreciated, thanks

Matt LeClerc


First off, this is just all just my oppinion. Your gonna find a few people who agree with me, and many who dont.

The current Chiness stuff is not nearly as good as "old iron" My 13x36 Clausing Colechester will out perform almost any of the current Chinesse lathes for sale under 4K. Mine was made in 1969 and I paid $1600 US for the lathe plus lots of attachements (see above on my previous post)

I believe with effort and patience you can find an older lathe, Southbend, Rockwell, Clausing etc. Depending on your location, you willingness to search I firmly believe you can find some good old iron.

Now a word of caution, buying old lathes can be extremly dangerous to you pocket book. You can buy a lathe that is completely shot and be a waste of money. There a few websites that go over what to look for in a lathe. if you have any machinest friends, get them involved.

Places to look? Ebay of course. I have had my best luck with my local newspaper and a online thing called Bargin Hunter. I dont think its any good for Canada.

[rhncue]

First off, this is just all just my oppinion. Your gonna find a few people who agree with me, and many who dont.

The current Chiness stuff is not nearly as good as "old iron" My 13x36 Clausing Colechester will out perform almost any of the current Chinesse lathes for sale under 4K. Mine was made in 1969 and I paid $1600 US for the lathe plus lots of attachements (see above on my previous post)

I believe with effort and patience you can find an older lathe, Southbend, Rockwell, Clausing etc. Depending on your location, you willingness to search I firmly believe you can find some good old iron.

Now a word of caution, buying old lathes can be extremly dangerous to you pocket book. You can buy a lathe that is completely shot and be a waste of money. There a few websites that go over what to look for in a lathe. if you have any machinest friends, get them involved.

Places to look? Ebay of course. I have had my best luck with my local newspaper and a online thing called Bargin Hunter. I dont think its any good for Canada.

I disagree a little here. I've got 7 metal cutting lathes both bench and engine. 4 are american lathes and 3 Taiwanese. The two that I use the most are both from Taiwan, a 13X36 Enco with a six jaw set-tru chuck and a 12X40 jet with a collett system. Both of these are extremely accuritt. I've had the Enco for 13 years and after the initial problems that occured when I first got it, which were mostly my fault, it has never let me down in over 12 years. The chuck has a .0003ths. run out that would sure be hard to find on a used American Lathe. Although there can be great buys on American lathes since so many machine shops have went under over the last few years, most have a lot of wear where it counts and that is the bed right near the chuck where most maching is done. Most used metal lathes have had a lot of strain put on them as they have been used cutting metal often in a manufacturing environement which meens they were run for maximum output. This puts much wear on the lathe components. All American lathe producers are now out of business so this often means that if parts are needed you will have a much harder time finding these as the supplies dwindle. Parts can be made but have you ever been quoted a price to have a gear hobbed? It may cost more than you paid for the lathe.
There is no question that new American Lathes were the best in the world but everything wears. Also, finding American lathes with a bed long enough and the spindle hole large enough for making cues you end up with a behemeth that ways tons and is to slow for doing wood. I've got one lathe that is 16x54 and weighs about 3500lbs. and the spindle hole was to small to put a butt thru before I bored it out larger.
The Chinese lathes are good buy for the money in my opinion. They are light but have the needed specs for cue building. Building cues is very light work on a metal lathe. Usually the only metal that is turned are stainless joints and this is no work at all.
The main thing with the import lathes is that they must be set-up and trued upon arrival. They come with an anti rust grease similar to cosmoline everywhere. This must be removed completely from every part and crevis on the lathe or you are asking for many troubles down the road, I know. Once properly cleaned, leveled, spindle and tail stock aligned and gibbs set you end up with a machine that will give many years of trouble free service.
The chinese chuck that comes on the lathe is true enough for cue work but I changed mine to a 6 jaw set-tru as now I don't have to clamp as tightly onto materials to keep them from slipping and the run-out is as close as you want to set it. I changed the motors to 3 phase instead of single phase and put on VDF's so as to have variable speed from 0 to 2500 rpm with just the turn of a knob which is a great help.
I've also got three Atlas metal lathes that I use for sundry operations as I don't believe they run true enough for anything serious. They work well and are set-up for making tubes of deco-rings, cutting off deco-rings to proper thickness and for initial putting tapers on handles and prongs and are left set-up just for these operations.
What I'm getting at is if you have the time ( maybe weeks, maybe years ) to find a good American lathe that suits the need of cue building then go for it, the less money going to China the better but if you don't want to wait for a good American lathe don't rule out an import lathe because you think it is infeariour and won't last.
Dick

[Ring]

I disagree a little here. I've got 7 metal cutting lathes both bench and engine. 4 are american lathes and 3 Taiwanese. The two that I use the most are both from Taiwan, a 13X36 Enco with a six jaw set-tru chuck and a 12X40 jet with a collett system. Both of these are extremely accuritt. I've had the Enco for 13 years and after the initial problems that occured when I first got it, which were mostly my fault, it has never let me down in over 12 years. The chuck has a .0003ths. run out that would sure be hard to find on a used American Lathe. Although there can be great buys on American lathes since so many machine shops have went under over the last few years, most have a lot of wear where it counts and that is the bed right near the chuck where most maching is done. Most used metal lathes have had a lot of strain put on them as they have been used cutting metal often in a manufacturing environement which meens they were run for maximum output. This puts much wear on the lathe components. All American lathe producers are now out of business so this often means that if parts are needed you will have a much harder time finding these as the supplies dwindle. Parts can be made but have you ever been quoted a price to have a gear hobbed? It may cost more than you paid for the lathe.
There is no question that new American Lathes were the best in the world but everything wears. Also, finding American lathes with a bed long enough and the spindle hole large enough for making cues you end up with a behemeth that ways tons and is to slow for doing wood. I've got one lathe that is 16x54 and weighs about 3500lbs. and the spindle hole was to small to put a butt thru before I bored it out larger.
The Chinese lathes are good buy for the money in my opinion. They are light but have the needed specs for cue building. Building cues is very light work on a metal lathe. Usually the only metal that is turned are stainless joints and this is no work at all.
The main thing with the import lathes is that they must be set-up and trued upon arrival. They come with an anti rust grease similar to cosmoline everywhere. This must be removed completely from every part and crevis on the lathe or you are asking for many troubles down the road, I know. Once properly cleaned, leveled, spindle and tail stock aligned and gibbs set you end up with a machine that will give many years of trouble free service.
The chinese chuck that comes on the lathe is true enough for cue work but I changed mine to a 6 jaw set-tru as now I don't have to clamp as tightly onto materials to keep them from slipping and the run-out is as close as you want to set it. I changed the motors to 3 phase instead of single phase and put on VDF's so as to have variable speed from 0 to 2500 rpm with just the turn of a knob which is a great help.
I've also got three Atlas metal lathes that I use for sundry operations as I don't believe they run true enough for anything serious. They work well and are set-up for making tubes of deco-rings, cutting off deco-rings to proper thickness and for initial putting tapers on handles and prongs and are left set-up just for these operations.
What I'm getting at is if you have the time ( maybe weeks, maybe years ) to find a good American lathe that suits the need of cue building then go for it, the less money going to China the better but if you don't want to wait for a good American lathe don't rule out an import lathe because you think it is infeariour and won't last.
Dick


You brought up a point that I failed to mention. Your imports are older and where made in Tiawan. There seems to be a large quality gap between lathes made by Enco, HF or grizzly in Tiawan than the same lathe today made in China.

I had an easy time finding my lathe. So maybe I was a lucky gun. But I would have seriously considered an older Tiawanese lathe.

[Busbee Cue]

Hello all,

Great thread. The Deluxe Cuesmith is an excellant lathe to build cue's on and it can handle just about any repair that will come along. It is a great machine for it's size if you are working out of your basement or garage. Like the other guy's have mentioned the tooling and supplies will cost alot more than what the lathe will cost. I have spent countless hours working with my lathe and have really enjoyed it. Nothing can get you going better than hours of work ruined by a 2 second mistake.

[Busbee Cue]

Foregive me,

I missed one of the most important parts to my post.

Chris is a great guy to deal with. He has been very helpful and patient with alot of my what seemed to be silly questions. Chris has been a very honest person to deal with.

[Trueheart]

Hi again to everyone,

I've been looking through lots of the previous posts and trying to determine what I need to start making a cue or two. First off I plan to do this as a HOBBY, not a job. I have a good job so I want to do this for fun, to make something that my son ( almost 6 months old ) would be proud to play with and maybe grandchildren years from now. I have enjoyed woodworking for a few years now but I need something to allow me to be more creative and combine my passions.

I have a wood lathe, works well for what it is supposed to do but the more I read the more it seems that I need a metal lathe to do many of the jobs that I would come across even in normal repairs for cues. I have ordered Chris Hightowers cue building book so once I get that it should shed some light for me on the process to get started correctly but I would like to find out what all the experienced cue builders on here would do if they were starting out in my shoes? I really don't mind spending a bit of money on this to get quality equipment, after all where I live most people own snowmobiles that run $10-15,000 to buy plus $20 an hour in gas as their hobby and I have bought and know the value of good equipment for woodworking. I would like to start out as reasonably as possible even so. I would like to know what people think of this lathe

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture?&NETID=1106111030050879616&NTITEM=CT043

I am looking pretty closely at the cuesmith deluxe as well but I don't want something that I will grow out of or that does not or cannot have the capabilities that I want or need. I could probably take a trip down to a grizzly warehouse and buy a lathe from them if they have better offerings for me as its only a 5 hour drive from Toronto.

I guess I'm rambling quite a bit but I'd just like to know if you think a full size metal lathe is the way to go, or a cuesmith or if I should just start by buying a mini lathe and start doing tips and ferrules. It seems as though I'm going to have lots of local business for doing tips at least since no one can do them worth a damn up here. I've already had one poolhall willing to give me all their business and probably more when I go looking. Any advice would be very much appreciated as I will soon have to start convincing my wife that we need another $4000 tool taking up room in our garage :)

Thanks to all,

Matt LeClerc

>Busybee lathe does not come with training on how to use it especially in tricky thin shaft turning required for cue making. Smart thing to do is buy Delux Cuesmith which comes with instuctions and occupies less space and requires less support tools and machinery the cost of which exceed the cost of the lathe.
>You should post what you decided to buy.

Charlie McKay
True Heart Billiard Cues

[Cuetips]

Hi Matt

I live in London Ontario and have been repairing cues ( and have built a couple for my own use)for the past 5-6 years . I am more of a hobbyist, but love to play with wood etc. I have had the Cue Smith Deluxe for the past 5 yers, and can confirm that it is definately a lathe for all aspects of building a cue. I can also confirm that Chris Hightower is a guy you can call, whenever you need some advice. If you want a good close look at the deluxe model, I will be attending the Ontario VNEA torunament in Hamilton this coming February and will be bringing my lathe down to care for the players tips, cleanings , wraps, etc...

Regards
Walter :-)

[Strange_Days]

Thanks Walter

I did make the purchase for a deluxe cuesmith. I purchased one with very slight use (less than an hour, almost brand new) from california. It shipped out today actually so I am very eager to get it and start with things. The guy I bought it from is throwing in some other things with it so I am just waiting to get it now to see what else I will need from Chris Hightower. I made a pretty big order from Atlas billiards just before Christmas as well to get all the supplies I think I'll need(I'm sure I'm missing about a hundred things :) ) to do repairs and a little shaft wood to have a go at. I appreciate your offer but I don't think I will be able to make the VNEA tournament as I am taking a week off to go the the Ontario's in Toronto in a few weeks. Are you going to that tournament as well? if so please send me a PM and let me know and I'll pick your brain a bit while I am there :) Thanks again,

Matt LeClerc

[Cuetips]

If that's the CCS one, I'll be visiting to see some old friends on the Saturday. What's the name of the team you play on?
I'll only be visiting for an hour or two, but I'll try to find you and we can chat.

WP

[Strange_Days]

Hi, My team is No Excueses. I have a great team going down this year, can't wait to get there. Walter, if you have the time I look forward to meeting with you.

Mase, if you read this great job on the website I really like how you have all the players listed with there level. but you must have made a mistake... I'm a "B" player now and its costing me more to get in the singles to get my butt kicked :) I look forward to seeing you down there,

Matt LeClerc