Drug Testing? [Archive] - AzBilliards Forums

CrownCityCorey

11-10-2005, 04:07 PM

i dont think drugs belong in any sport, but you know they are almost everywhere in almost every sport..depending on where you draw the line on what you consider drugs.steroids a good example i would think maybe this would be something the players themselves should decide if they want testing and for what. its very expensive the more money you take away for testing the less players will get. this is very debatable is it really needed, we have been lead to believe that drugs and pool are closely associated but are they really. the players know whats really going on..if it is needed they set a grace period for some to seek help and get clean. such as ..on jan 1 2007 testing is manatory something along that line

Several years back I submitted to a drug screen for emloyment and it was around $160. That would be $24,000 for the whole tour. Well worth the money in my eyes.

You test all before for the 1st even, all who fail are out. Then have in the player contract that random drug screening is allowed and a failed exam results in immediate suspension. If it is suspected that a player is violating the contract, you give them 30 days to submit a new drug test.

If the game were kept clean, there would be a whole new list of heroes on the tour(s).

Black-Balled

11-10-2005, 04:08 PM

TX Poolnut

11-10-2005, 04:20 PM

A friend of mine is on the tour next year. He said yes indeed the IPT WILL be testing.

Bob Jewett

11-10-2005, 04:25 PM

... Will the IPT be drug testing its Touring Pro Players? I certainly believe they should. You?
Colin would never pass the MSG screening.

In the present situation, there's no apparent need or requirement for screening. This contrasts with the WPA which because of its association with the WCBS is required to have an anti-doping policy.

I think if any players do drugs it's for recreational rather than competitive reasons.

SUPERSTAR

11-10-2005, 04:36 PM

I think that if they were to test for illicit drug use, that certain things are going have to be addressed.

I know of several professional pool players that take street forms of drugs, but also others take prescription forms of speed and similar substances.

The problem is that the drugs are prescribed specifically for people who have difficulty with attention and that could be their excuse.

So if it is being used by pros who have a doctor friend prescribing the pills for them, how is a distinction going to be made between the guy who uses the street stuff, and the guy who has the doctors note.

Just because a doctor says that "yes he does have difficulty with attention", does not mean that the person getting the drugs prescribed to him isn't malingering.

Where will the line be drawn? If the guy has a doctors note, does that get him off the hook? (with amphetamines and similar substances)

Cocaine on the other hand has no prescribable form so it could be banned across the board.

bruin70

11-10-2005, 04:49 PM

I had not seen this subject really adressed yet.

Will the IPT be drug testing its Touring Pro Players? I certainly believe they should. You?

no,,,why should they.

the only reason i can see is to give the general public the illusion that pool has its foibles like any major sport,,,,ie. make people think pool should be thought of in the same way as other sports. in other words,,,,,,,,a PR gimmick.

CrownCityCorey

11-10-2005, 04:57 PM

Though they seem only concerned about steroids, it is an interesting example of the PGA's mindset: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/02/15/sports/s145234S68.DTL

This does not have a date, but is more specific to the types of performance enhancements that would be present in pool: http://www.golftoday.co.uk/news/yeartodate/news00/drugs.html

Purdman

11-10-2005, 04:59 PM

I believe that Purdy will be testing all drugs, leading up to IPT.

It is a dilemma- why test?
Do you have evidence that drugs make a person play better?

Why not test- they are illegal and there is a certain level of integrity to uphold.

I got no answer for you. Got any weed? :D

I believe that Purdy will be testing all drugs, leading up to IPT.
Hey Blacked-Balled, you got a problem with me? ;) For your information and anybody else on this board, all the drug testing was completed in 1978. I would be more than happy to let you read the report. :p For a small fee. ;)
Purdman :cool:

rackmsuckr

11-11-2005, 03:21 AM

A friend of mine is on the tour next year. He said yes indeed the IPT WILL be testing.

How does he know that? I have not gotten an email saying anything about drug testing. I wouldn't mind it, but I know of others who might. Illegal drugs are probably not as bad as legal ones - i.e. alcohol and prescription drugs like Oxycontin.

cuetechasaurus

11-11-2005, 03:32 AM

How does he know that? I have not gotten an email saying anything about drug testing. I wouldn't mind it, but I know of others who might. Illegal drugs are probably not as bad as legal ones - i.e. alcohol and prescription drugs like Oxycontin.

Yeah, it's stupid how alcohol is legal and weed isn't. Weed itself can't kill you, alcohol can. You can't get addicted to weed either, and just go to any bar and half of the people in there go there every day and down beer after beer.

Colin Colenso

11-11-2005, 04:10 AM

Bringing in drug testing is very effective at ensuring a bunch of bad PR and potentially big lawsuits.

There is no evidence it offers any advantages at the top level of the game.

Starting testing acts more to arouse suspicion than do any help in generating a supposed clean image.

If it is done, there are almost guaranteed to be a few helpless victims who inadvertently attended a party where dope was being smoked, or god forbid, they actually socially indulged in some unaccepted substance the weekend before.

Their carreers could be ended by the flap that ensues. All this to keep the do-gooders happy.

I won't be cutting down on my MSG intake, that's for sure ;-)

Swordfish

11-11-2005, 07:27 AM

Will the IPT be drug testing its Touring Pro Players? I certainly believe they should. You?
"CRANK" it up.

s/f

chefjeff

11-11-2005, 08:32 AM

Is there currrently a real drug-enhancement/drug-abuse problem in pro pool?

No? Then why START one?

Jeff Livingston

sniper

11-11-2005, 01:13 PM

Wow what a controversial issue, I think they should do drug testing because of the simple fact that there are drugs out there which will enhance a players ability. A good example of one would be the drug that snipers use to slow their heartbeat down, this could certainly be used to a players advantage in a high stakes/high pressure match. If the players are clean they should have no problem doing a drug test.

The European players certainly wouldn't be opposed to drug testing because they've had random drug tests on the Euro-tour for a few years now, the penalty for a failed test is pretty strict IIRC, first offense the player misses several events, second offense is a one year ban, and I believe the third offense was a see ya later don't let the door hit your ass on the way out :)

This is just my opinion and I bet everyone feels differently about this rather touchy issue, this would also be a good question for Deno.

juegabillar

11-11-2005, 01:53 PM

Yeah, it's stupid how alcohol is legal and weed isn't. Weed itself can't kill you, alcohol can. You can't get addicted to weed either, and just go to any bar and half of the people in there go there every day and down beer after beer.

The CPB a Continental Association within the WPA has announced they will test for alchohol. According to the CPB, anyone with .004 alcohol level will be disciplined. It was announce without consultation with the member countries, nor it was explained how they came with this number, or how players would be selected, if it is random or selective, etc. Obviously, I objected but don't know if any other country is opposed to the arbitrary imposition.

I also don't know if the other Continental Associations (APBU, EPBF, etc) have imposed the testing...

Mr. Wilson

11-11-2005, 01:54 PM

IMO,

Just the event winners should be tested.

The various users / losers will have eaten enough crow by that point.

I don't get it though.

If you were operating equipment or if there was any remote possibility of someone ( but yourself ) getting hurt by their "use", it would be understandable.

If they win and they have something in their system, might be a lot harder to explain :)

Snapshot9

11-11-2005, 02:39 PM

The CPB a Continental Association within the WPA has announced they will test for alchohol. According to the CPB, anyone with .004 alcohol level will be disciplined. It was announce without consultation with the member countries, nor it was explained how they came with this number, or how players would be selected, if it is random or selective, etc. Obviously, I objected but don't know if any other country is opposed to the arbitrary imposition.

I also don't know if the other Continental Associations (APBU, EPBF, etc) have imposed the testing...

1 beer can put you over .004. Are you telling me a player can not
even drink 1 beer while playing or inbetween matches? That's absurd ...

juegabillar

11-11-2005, 02:52 PM

1 beer can put you over .004. Are you telling me a player can not
even drink 1 beer while playing or inbetween matches? That's absurd ...

Why do you think I objected to this number?

The CPB wants no alcohol served to players in their events, nor they want them smoking (anytime). This could lead to "witch-hunting" in the events and I'm obvioulsy opposed.

I can understand not drinking or smoking during a match but I cannot understand the logic after the match, where the player goes out of the venue and has a "smoke" or a beer.

I've been searching the WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) website to find out some more info about the .004, and I sure cannot find it anywhere.

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/

rackmsuckr

11-11-2005, 03:09 PM

1 beer can put you over .004. Are you telling me a player can not
even drink 1 beer while playing or in between matches? That's absurd ...

Wouldn't one Altoid put you over .004? Our legal limit here is .07. Get caught driving at .08 and it's DUI time.

bud green

11-11-2005, 03:32 PM

Shawn Putnam

11-11-2005, 10:16 PM

I had not seen this subject really adressed yet.

Will the IPT be drug testing its Touring Pro Players? I certainly believe they should. You?
I hop they do.
I might be the only player left on tour.
some players excluded, you know who you are.

Blackjack

11-11-2005, 10:52 PM

I think its ridiculous to force people to piss in a cup so they can freakin play pool. Most of the people who support this kind of crap aren't the ones who have to whip it out every time some administrative clown says so.

I've had to do it over 20 times for work and it gets old real f***ing quick. Sometimes you get to wait for 20-30 minutes and then have to try and not blow the cup out of your hand when they let you "donate" your sample (it says that on the paperwork). Thats big fun.

I've worked in chemistry labs for over ten years and have seen machines give bad results for a number of reasons. Its one thing when its a test of a product, its a whole different deal when someones' livelihood is on the line. May only happen 1 in a 1000+ but if its you, your screwed.

What's next, gps trackers to make sure the players aren't going to places the tour disapproves of? Private detectives spying on 'em? Bug their phones?

Christ, tell them slacks & collared shirts, don't act like an asshole, and let them play.

Prior to December 6,1986 I was under the influence of a lot of chemicals. Some of these chemicals were taken to enhance my playing ability. Shawn knows what he is talking about. Just because I quit, doesnt mean that the practice has died. Gambling was not so much about who played the best, it was about who could play the best the longest, and that meant endurance. It was more about chemical warfare than about good pool in many of the situations I witnessed and participated in. If I were to pee into a plastic cup in 1985 it would have melted.

Today I have no problem with urine testing. There is nothing in my urine and they can have as much of it as they want, I have nothing to hide. Bottle it and sell it for all I care. As far as getting the attitude that Bud has... any employer, tour director, agency, whoever has the right to provide and enforce a drug free environment. You don't have to be part of that environment if you don't want to. If a player would have a problem with providing a urine sample (if this rule is enforced) then that player will become a very unhappy railbird. End of story.

vagabond

11-12-2005, 06:22 AM

The CPB wants no alcohol served to players in their events, nor they want them smoking (anytime). This could lead to "witch-hunting" in the events and I'm obvioulsy opposed.
http://www.wada-ama.org/en/

It is time to start a parallel organization to WPA or get all the leaders of the association removed thru Democratic process

vagabond

11-12-2005, 06:27 AM

What's next, gps trackers to make sure the players aren't going to places the tour disapproves of? Private detectives spying on 'em? Bug their phones?

Why surprise? Patriot law allows that.

LastTwo

11-12-2005, 06:41 AM

8BallBernie if you test negative for any drugs, I've lost all faith in mankind.

bud green

11-12-2005, 09:18 AM

Drugs for gambling sessions is a whole different matter than for tourneys. In a staying awake contest, of course a guy on speed will have an advantage if the other player agrees to play all night. In a tourney, that guy will crash from fatigue or get too spacy to play his best game half the time.

What drug could players possibly use now that actually helps in a long tourney? People on hard stuff are real easy to spot when they start screwing up (the legend of Tony W., for instance). Does anyone think smoking weed is some big advantage for playing pool at this level? First people tell you it will make you stupid and now its an advantage in eight-ball, where you have to think about strategy, make a lot of decisions,etc...

Next time you have to take a leak, don't. Sit on a couch and wait for 30 minutes (my longest was 40 minutes- I told them they could have it in a cup or wring it out my pants) . Then go pee. Afterwards, have someone tell you its ok to wash your hands now. Nice boy, Roscoe. Thats a good dog. Ooops, I mean human.

Some might want to show the world they're sober, I'm getting tired of proving it time and time again.

I got hired for a project in Georgia for a company that makes Splenda (artificial sweetener). Passed a piss test. I volunteer for a 3 week project in Alabama where me and a coworker end up saving them $400K. In the middle of working 12-15 hour graveyard shifts filtering chemical solutions that contain DMF (its toxic), they send someone to tell me not only do they want me to take a second piss test in a month, they want a respiratory test. The best part: they knew there was no job left for me back in Georgia. That project is cancelled but they still want to **** with their employees. Drug free environmment? The only ones they offered permanent jobs in Alabama included me and a former truck driver who took speed all the time. You know what? He kicked ass at work and his partying never affected his work. Thats why we were the 2 out of 40 offered the jobs. I'll take an intelligent person who handles their partying over a low IQ sober person anyday.

My supervisor in Ga was a former addict. Like Blackjack, a nice intelligent guy who has been sober for a while. My boss was sober 17 years, worked hard, didn't miss work, churchgoer even. Johnson & Johnson made him take three piss tests in one month, saying his number just kept coming up for random tests. Believe me, he was getting a little tired of this crap too, and he minds it a lot less than me.

Actually, I've never failed a test (23 out of 23 negative. No fake pee.) so its not that I'm worried about getting busted for something. It just seriously gets old after awhile. Ever notice management is almost never subjected to this crap, definately not random testing?

Its a basic lack of respect for peoples privacy. They're pool players, not jet pilots strapped to 50 million dollar planes or school bus drivers.

chefjeff

11-12-2005, 09:40 AM

I hop they do.
I might be the only player left on tour.
some players excluded, you know who you are.

Interesting comment, Shawn.

As a pro, could you tell me if drugs, that actually enhance players' abilities, are used in pro tournaments? And what are those drugs and exactly how do they enhance play? I use an herb and alcohol occasionally but I'd hardly call them "enhancement" drugs, but for some I suppose they could be.

I ask because I can't think of a good drug for improved pool, but I'm certainly no expert on the subject and have little contact with pro players to know what they prefer. Someone mentioned beta blockers for their calming abilities, but there's tons of products that can promote similar results, so should testing be done on everything that helps calm nerves and increase concentration (cigs, alcohol, ginseng, ginkgo, calcium, L-theanine, ashwagandha, beta sitosterol, L-tyrosine, B complex, etc. etc.) or just on some substances?

Since you want to see this implemented, may I ask you where would you draw the line and which products should be tested for?

Thanks,

Jeff Livingston

Craig Fales

11-12-2005, 09:48 AM

chefjeff

11-12-2005, 09:51 AM

(snip)
As far as getting the attitude that Bud has... any employer, tour director, agency, whoever has the right to provide and enforce a drug free environment. You don't have to be part of that environment if you don't want to. If a player would have a problem with providing a urine sample (if this rule is enforced) then that player will become a very unhappy railbird. End of story.

I'd say that's the beginning of the story, not the end...

Blackjack, I asked Shawn P. a similar question: On which drugs and where do you draw the line for testing being OK? And why those drugs and not others?

Notice that employers are testing for illegal drugs, mostly. Why is that, when most legal drugs are more harmful than illegal drugs? If they test for just domr illegal drugs, then their intent isn't to improve workplace safety. So what is their intent? Or more to the point, what are the true consequences of testing, both good and bad? Who really wins and who really loses?

And the question I asked before that went unanswered: If there is currently no problem drug(s) being used, why start any new problems in the shakey pool world by introducing testing?

Jeff Livingston

juegabillar

11-12-2005, 10:15 AM

It is time to start a parallel organization to WPA or get all the leaders of the association removed thru Democratic process

A whole new "World" structure would have to be organized. With Continental Federations/Confederations or Associations for anyone not wanting anything to do with the WCBS, WPA and the IOC.

juegabillar

11-12-2005, 10:28 AM

Personally I think the number of people playing pro these days who actually take any kind of illicit substance is low...Only a little alcohol here and there. I think it would be just a waste of time and money for the sport

If someone was suspected of using drugs then perhaps on a 1 on 1 basis would be more affective....

Anyone weighing less than 220 lbs who drinks 2 beers within an hour would be legally intoxicated according to WADA Rules.

A 220 pounder who drinks 3 beers within an hour would have alcohol content of .05 which is in excess of the .04 that apparently will be or has been imposed by the WCBS.

I used this table to provide the above information:

http://www.ou.edu/oupd/bac.htm

Gabber

11-12-2005, 02:09 PM

Is there currrently a real drug-enhancement/drug-abuse problem in pro pool?

No? Then why START one?

Jeff Livingston

How do you know there isnt a problem if there has never been any testing?

We have been hearing FOREVER about the IPT is going to change the image of pool. I would have thought testing would have been a PRIORITY.

Gabber

predator

11-14-2005, 02:56 AM

If pool is ever going to be taken seriously as a sport, any drugs are simply unacceptable. And about having a few beers between matches...if you allow this, those 'few beers' will be more like ten for some players. It's a pro tournament with a big prize money, not a social event at Joe's tavern...you're not supposed to drink at all IMO.

Jimmy M.

11-14-2005, 03:30 AM

I think if any players do drugs it's for recreational rather than competitive reasons.

There are some pharmaceutical drugs that are definitely used, illegally (unless there are a number of players that suffer from narcolepsy and have valid prescriptions), for competitive reasons by some known players.

Black-Balled

11-14-2005, 06:39 AM

There are some pharmaceutical drugs that are definitely used, illegally (unless there are a number of players that suffer from narcolepsy and have valid prescriptions), for competitive reasons by some known players.
Now the ORG that is paying for the tests has to validate med info? 2nd opinion you say, at your own cost? How much does this club cost?
What do they ask...is the juice worth the squeeze?!

Blackjack

11-14-2005, 11:42 AM

I'd say that's the beginning of the story, not the end...

Blackjack, I asked Shawn P. a similar question: On which drugs and where do you draw the line for testing being OK? And why those drugs and not others?

Notice that employers are testing for illegal drugs, mostly. Why is that, when most legal drugs are more harmful than illegal drugs? If they test for just domr illegal drugs, then their intent isn't to improve workplace safety. So what is their intent? Or more to the point, what are the true consequences of testing, both good and bad? Who really wins and who really loses?

And the question I asked before that went unanswered: If there is currently no problem drug(s) being used, why start any new problems in the shakey pool world by introducing testing?

Jeff Livingston

It should fall in line with IOC standards. This attitude of "why?" is what keeps us running in place. My attitude is "why not?" If there is no drug problem, why should it matter if they pee in a urinal or a cup? As I said before, I have nothing to hide, so testing doesn't bother me. I recognize it as a necessary evil, not a condemnation on my character or an aggressive cross examination of my current lifestyle. If we want the recognition we believe that we deserve, then we need to take measures to earn that respect. Ping Pong has met the IOC standards. What's wrong with pool? There are several groups in Asia and other parts of the world that are aggresively moving towards meeting or exceeding IOC standards. Look at this link, which gives a brief history of this battle:

http://www.ibsf.org/wcbs/index.php

Look around that site and tell me that nobody is trying.

IOC will need the cooperaton of al the disciplines in billiards (Carom/Pocket?Snooker). This one of the major reasons I am opposed to the attitude of the IPT. They seem unwilling to cooperate and that is detrimental to the direction the world bodies are trying to direct billiards. Drug testing is just part of this process, not all of it. Worrying about drug testing is premature, we need to focus on unifying snooker, carom and pocket billiards to form a world body. If we stick our noses up and say we don't care, then so much for earning respect from anyone.

Black-Balled

11-14-2005, 11:55 AM

It should fall in line with IOC standards. This attitude of "why?" is what keeps us running in place. My attitude is "why not?" If there is no drug problem, why should it matter if they pee in a urinal or a cup? As I said before, I have nothing to hide, so testing doesn't bother me. I recognize it as a necessary evil, not a condemnation on my character or an aggressive cross examination of my current lifestyle. If we want the recognition we believe that we deserve, then we need to take measures to earn that respect. Ping Pong has met the IOC standards. What's wrong with pool? There are several groups in Asia and other parts of the world that are aggresively moving towards meeting or exceeding IOC standards. Look at this link, which gives a brief history of this battle:

http://www.ibsf.org/wcbs/index.php

Look around that site and tell me that nobody is trying.

IOC will need the cooperaton of al the disciplines in billiards (Carom/Pocket?Snooker). This one of the major reasons I am opposed to the attitude of the IPT. They seem unwilling to cooperate and that is detrimental to the direction the world bodies are trying to direct billiards. Drug testing is just part of this process, not all of it. Worrying about drug testing is premature, we need to focus on unifying snooker, carom and pocket billiards to form a world body. If we stick our noses up and say we don't care, then so much for earning respect from anyone.

Testing at the pro-level is a joke. Take a look at cycling/ soccer/ baseball/ football. It is too often either guilty until 'b' sample exonerates, or a get out of jail free card. There is too much uncertainty, red-tape, mixed interests and costs to make it effective. Maybe the dopers should be allowed to make their hearts explode or turn themselves into vegetables.

Blackjack

11-14-2005, 12:04 PM

Snapshot9

11-14-2005, 12:09 PM

are at hand to try to deal with drug testing. I agree, it is
premature at this time. Even if they did do it, I think it
should be random, and only apply to the top 8 finishers,
who cares about the rest UNLESS they having someone
playing in the tournament that is obviously under the
influence of drugs, then that could fall under the random
testing regulation.
I have seen players so keyed up on natural juices though,
and they appear to be on drugs, but they aren't.
What about the players that do nothing during a tournament,
but test positive because they did some recreational drug
2 days before, and it is still in their system?

Jimmy M.

11-14-2005, 12:27 PM

Now the ORG that is paying for the tests has to validate med info? 2nd opinion you say, at your own cost? How much does this club cost?
What do they ask...is the juice worth the squeeze?!

I think that, as a business decision for the IPT, it wouldn't be a bad idea to spend the money to ensure that all of their players are tested. If nothing else, to protect their own integrity - especially now in the early stages of its creation. The only people who won't want drug testing are the ones who use drugs. Otherwise, what would be the problem? Personally, I always like it when an employer requires drug screening. It lets me know that I won't be working in a bad environment (at least as far as drugs are concerned) and it also gives me the opportunity to show myself in a positive light to my new employer.

By the way, I'm really not sure what you were saying in your post. I was just answering the question "is the juice worth the squeeze". :D

Jimmy M.

11-14-2005, 12:38 PM

And the question I asked before that went unanswered: If there is currently no problem drug(s) being used, why start any new problems in the shakey pool world by introducing testing?

Jeff Livingston

Your question makes an assumption based on no facts. How do you know if there are no drugs being used? I guess if your assumption were correct, then sure, why bother? Your assumption may or may not be correct though.

onepocketchump

11-14-2005, 12:42 PM

Interesting comment, Shawn.

As a pro, could you tell me if drugs, that actually enhance players' abilities, are used in pro tournaments? And what are those drugs and exactly how do they enhance play? I use an herb and alcohol occasionally but I'd hardly call them "enhancement" drugs, but for some I suppose they could be.

I ask because I can't think of a good drug for improved pool, but I'm certainly no expert on the subject and have little contact with pro players to know what they prefer. Someone mentioned beta blockers for their calming abilities, but there's tons of products that can promote similar results, so should testing be done on everything that helps calm nerves and increase concentration (cigs, alcohol, ginseng, ginkgo, calcium, L-theanine, ashwagandha, beta sitosterol, L-tyrosine, B complex, etc. etc.) or just on some substances?

Since you want to see this implemented, may I ask you where would you draw the line and which products should be tested for?

Thanks,

Jeff Livingston

OMG are you kidding? Pain pills for one. They take away all fear and physical pain so you can be relaxed and loose. Speed can give you intense focus. Cocaine sharpens your senses. Valium relaxes you. I never really paid much attention to the amount of drug use among pool players but let me tell you that in the last few years I have seen that it is pretty rampant. I can't imagine the times I have had to fade a guy who is doing coke or meth and comes out shooting lights out.

I very much doubt that there are many top notchers who haven't tried to play juiced up. I never did until a few years ago when I ended up with a bulging disk and I discovered, through pain pills, what it's like to play free from pain and anxiety. It is definitely something attractive to anyone who plays this game competitively. But, the downside is that you can easily become dependent on the feeling and think that you need it to play. I try to play on the natural as much as possible. To me that is the best high that you can get is to win with no chemical help at all. Unfortunately I can somewhat understand why people do it.

One of the funniest stories I ever read was about Jimmy Reed agreeing to play Buddy Hall 6 ahead for 500. Jimmy pops some uppers and gets ready to play. Buddy wins the flip and runs a six pack on Jimmy, finishing just as the uppers are kicking in. Jimmy turns to Buddy and says, "that's the rottenst thing anyone has ever done to me."

As to drug testing in the IPT. Well, I suppose that given the premise of the main sponsor's platform, it would not be out of the realm of possiblilty to think that there would be some form of drug testing. Then again, I am sure that there is a natural substitute for whatever synthetic combination a player might want to take. Might be a good idea for those that choose that path to read the book. :-)

Black-Balled

11-14-2005, 12:45 PM

It is not an unreasonable policy at all, and the same standards are used in all sports, games, etc. Nobody is pointing fingers, it is just a necessary part of the procss. If you think its a joke, well I wont try to change your opinion. Im just presenting the facts that I have about the subject, don't shoot the messenger.

Oh no- I certainly wouldn't think you bear any of the accountability for the current standards/ policies!

The question, "To test or not?" is as simple to answer as ask...

Jimmy M.

11-14-2005, 12:45 PM

I hop they do.
I might be the only player left on tour.
some players excluded, you know who you are.

I was thinking the same thing. There might be room left for me in that list of 150 after all if they start testing! LOL! :D

2arm_bandit

11-14-2005, 12:56 PM

the problem is that if these guys know they're going to be tested then they can take a few days and the get the toxins out of their systems. lets face it, i would say the most popular drug around pool players is crystal meth. or atleast in my area it is, it takes 3 days (sometimes less) for crystal meth to be out of your system and then it appears that you're totally clean. except for the physical aspect of it. i just dont think its worth spending the money on testing so these guys can lay low a couple days, get clean for the test, and then start hittin the pipe again once they've been ok'd

Jimmy M.

11-14-2005, 12:56 PM

Interesting comment, Shawn.

As a pro, could you tell me if drugs, that actually enhance players' abilities, are used in pro tournaments? And what are those drugs and exactly how do they enhance play?

LOL! Looking for something to try? :D

Desoxyn (or "desi's", as the pills are referred to as) was real popular. Take two of those and call me in the morning. Let me know how you did in the weekly tournament. :cool:

I had one player that I won't name tell me that he "won't go into the box without a 'desi'". Yeah, there are no problems. lol.

Colin Colenso

11-14-2005, 01:24 PM

http://www.billiard-wcbs.org/images/Organigramm_WCBS.jpg

Here is a link to the World Confederation of Billiards Anti Doping Rules (ADR)

http://www.billiard-wcbs.org/Doping.pdf

It is not an unreasonable policy at all, and the same standards are used in all sports, games, etc. Nobody is pointing fingers, it is just a necessary part of the procss. If you think its a joke, well I wont try to change your opinion. Im just presenting the facts that I have about the subject, don't shoot the messenger.
Hi Blackjack,
It's your opinion that the IPT unifying with the IOC bureaucracy would be a good thing, not a fact. It's your right to have that opinion and I guess you'd get wide support from most quarters.

However, I think becoming a part of the IOC would be a big mistake. I would prefer to see the IOC go out of business. I believe their structure inhibits the growth of the sports that become heavily reliant upon them. There is plenty of evidence to support this idea too.

In the traditional Olympic sports, there has been a stiffling on entrepreneureal development. Athletics, swimming, gymnastics, and a bunch of others where athletes rarely get a chance to make any money out of their sport.

If pool were in the olympics we'd be lucky to see 1 minute of it in a highlights package. It would get lost among the crowd of low profile sports.

It connects political power to sports, a thing to be avoided I believe.

Regarding the drug testing issue, the IOC has been proven to have lied many times. Their anti-drug political campaign has probably led to the death of millions of people in the last 20 years through its effect on detering investment into research of enhancement drugs which have great potential in aiding recovery from disease, injury and surgery.

And yet the top athletes never stopped taking drugs, they've always been a step ahead of the slow-moving bureaucratic IOC.

CrownCityCorey

11-14-2005, 01:33 PM

As to drug testing in the IPT. Well, I suppose that given the premise of the main sponsor's platform, it would not be out of the realm of possiblilty to think that there would be some form of drug testing. Then again, I am sure that there is a natural substitute for whatever synthetic combination a player might want to take. Might be a good idea for those that choose that path to read the book. :-)

Interesting point. Considering the "Title" tour sponsor is "Natural Cures" it would certainly seem consistent or to their benefit to have documentation that their players are "on the natch".

Blackjack

11-14-2005, 01:33 PM

Oh no- I certainly wouldn't think you bear any of the accountability for the current standards/ policies!

The question, "To test or not?" is as simple to answer as ask...
I provided a link to the World Confederation of Billiard Sports Ant-Doping Rules, did you read any of it? I say test. The standards call for the following to be tested:

5.7.1
a) The Winner
b) The athlete that establishes, ties, or breaks the World Record
c) A random selected ember of a team that wins
d) One or more athletes by random so that at least 3% of the athletes in each competition will be tested, or if there are more than 128 participants, at least 5 athletes.
e) Target testing as decided by the WCBS Board of Directors or its representative at a competition.

5.7.2
Athletes may be selected for out of competition testing through a process that substantiallycomplies with the international standard for testing in force at the time of the selection.

5.7.3
WCBS affiliated national federations and organizing committees for international competitions or events shall provide access to independent observers at events as directed by the WCBS.

The WCBS outline the international standards and also sets their own standards which can meet or exceed those standards. As Jimmy pointed out, it is to maintain the integrity of the competition, not to single people out and point fingers.

It s also important to point out that WPA recognizs these standards as well and is part of the World Confederation of Billiard Sports (refer to the organization chart). When Ian Anderson spoke out against the IPT in August, it was because the WPA falls in line with the WCBS policies and practices and must uphold that. Many are aying that the WPA wanted to get rich off the IPT (which isn't true), it goes much further than money, I have said that all along. Any money that goes into the WPA goes right back into the sport internationally. This would be a way for the IPT to help promote teh sport on a gloabal level. There are certain criteria that needs to be met internationally and all they are asking for is for the IPT follow the international guidelines. They have chosen not to. Here is a link to the entire statement issued by Ian Anderson, not the condensed version that was released by others, this is a link to the complete statement.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=localnews&newsid=42

In this statement Ian urges the international federations to "encouarge ITP to work together with us for everyone’s benefit."

Here is a quote from Ian's statement (08-19-05):
We have to make and amend policies to maintain our Olympic recognition, something which I’m sure you would all be aware is important to us. Many a nation receives benefits as a result of WPA’s membership to the IOC. Fortunate players from these countries are already receiving great assistance from their governments and National Olympic Committees and this number is growing all the time. And for any of you that may not count this as being so important, just ask the thoughts of players who took part in the recent World Games.

The hard work has already been done in laying down the foundation for this to become a reality. I am proud to ave been a part of that and I will continue to move forward to further assist in organizing billiards on the international and global level. One of the ways to help out from where you are at is to get involved yourself.This testing policy has been in place in international billiards for a very long time - its not new, nor is it intended to be intrusive. It is merey the standards that billiards (pocket billiards, snooker, carom bole) have to meet to be recognized by the National and International Olympic Committees. The Olympic Training Centers would welcome billiards, and I (and many others) believe we would be an excellent attraction, it would gain unmeasurable exposure, and it would greatly impact participation.

Colin Colenso

11-14-2005, 01:42 PM

And the question I asked before that went unanswered: If there is currently no problem drug(s) being used, why start any new problems in the shakey pool world by introducing testing?

Jeff Livingston
Hi Jeff,
There are many drugs players take that they think helps their performance, or because they are addicted to some degree and can't perform up to their usual abilities without them. These range from marijuana, speed, coke to beer and cigarettes.

There are also a range of downners such as muscle relaxants, anti-depressents, pain killers etc that some can use to relieve nervousness.

The one drug I know that is sometimes used and was prevalent among similar sports such as archery and shooting is beta-blockers (such as propranolol), that basically block the production of adrenaline, helping people to stay calm in tense situations.

But I don't feel these substances have benefits to top level professionals who can deal with their nerves and don't want the negative influences of these drugs affecting their thinking during matches.

And to Jimmy, there are reasons for being against testing other than self-protection, as I have been trying to point out.

I have nothing to fear from it myself, I take no banned substances, but I have been involved in the process before in track and field and in pool in Australia where testing was brought in. The real effect was that it brought the police state one step closer to our doors. It spread suspicion, fear, distrust, wasted time and money and lost people jobs.

Getting long winded..time for a break :D

CrownCityCorey

11-14-2005, 01:48 PM

LOL! Looking for something to try? :D

Desoxyn (or "desi's", as the pills are referred to as) was real popular. Take two of those and call me in the morning. Let me know how you did in the weekly tournament. :cool:

I had one player that I won't name tell me that he "won't go into the box without a 'desi'". Yeah, there are no problems. lol.

I was talking to Ryan McCreesh at the Derby in 2004 about a certain "Ohio-an" road player (nothing against the fine state of Ohio) that was constantly in action there. I played him twice some time back, mind you I certainly felt I "liked" the game having watched his run-out patterns and such. He would not play me right away. He left the poolroom and came back a few hours later and proceeded to drill me outta about $1200. Never missing a ball, running around the table like sprinter. His run out patterns still sucked, but he never missed. I played him again in Reno with the same scenario and lost another $400.

When I was talking with Ryan about it, we both agreed that if this player were "on the natch", he can flip it up anytime! However, he is never "on the natch"!

His enhancement of choice was obviously some sort of "speed". Don't know which one.

You know who Jimmy, he came & played Bryce in AZ a few years back.

The drugs they should look for are the illegal and prescription ones. If you have prescription ones in your system, then you must provide a legitimate medical reason (doctor's note) for it. If not, bye, bye :D

Colin Colenso

11-14-2005, 01:49 PM

I (and many others) believe we would be an excellent attraction, it would gain unmeasurable exposure...

A most appropriate and ironic freudian slip.

I for once agree with you regarding the effect of joining the IOC...ROTF

Better the IPT then goes it alone and gains immeasurable exposure! :D

Colin Colenso

11-14-2005, 01:57 PM

Interesting point. Considering the "Title" tour sponsor is "Natural Cures" it would certainly seem consistent or to their benefit to have documentation that their players are "on the natch".

Well, I think the opposite is true.

As Natural Cures is attacks the authority of the medical industry, it seems ridiculous to seek approval from these related bodies that would shut him down in a heartbeat if they could.

Keep Independent KT! :D

Blackjack

11-14-2005, 02:05 PM

A most appropriate and ironic freudian slip.

I for once agree with you regarding the effect of joining the IOC...ROTF

Better the IPT then goes it alone and gains immeasurable exposure! :D

Instead of attacking semantics, stick with the isues, or is that too difficult? I am more than willing to have an intelligent conversation about this with intelligent people. If you want to be regarded as an intelligent person, then act as such. Don't try to throw the conversation in another direction, it just shows how much you truly know about the topic.

Colin Colenso

11-14-2005, 02:10 PM

Instead of attacking semantics, stick with the isues, or is that too difficult? I am more than willing to have an intelligent conversation about this with intelligent people. If you want to be regarded as an intelligent person, then act as such. Don't try to throw the conversation in another direction, it just shows how much you truly know about the topic.
See my posts above directed to you which I believe fill the requirements of your request.

I think you are way off the boat in your faith in the IOC.

I don't intend to argue this in a vitriolic manner, but it is something I believe strongly in, and think you may change your mind about.

rackmsuckr

11-14-2005, 02:11 PM

I have nothing to fear from it myself, I take no banned substances..

I'm like Colin. I take no banned substances or even prescription drugs at all and am very vocal about being anti-drug and nicotine. I only drink socially a couple times a year. I do however feel that, depending on how stringently they want to test, that it could go too far.

Usually, at the day's end of matches, people do congregate in the bar and relax and drink a few. We are not driving, most of us, and even if I do have my limit of 2 wines or champagnes, I start feeling the effects after only a couple sips. (I know, I'm a lightweight!) Given the example stated above where a 220 pound person can only drink 2 or 3 beers per hour to stay under the limit, that would be really hard for me to do. Detoxification can take a couple days before it is all out of the liver, not sure of the bloodstream.

If they were to test the next day, most people would fail. Are we then to never drink at these tournament venues, even after-hours? And I shudder to think what the smokers are going to think. Now there are only 2 reasons I can see to drug test - to enhance performance or on-the-job safety. The 3rd corollory reason is so that people don't act like idiots, which as we have all seen, some are going to do anyway. :p And I guess another would be to see who is breaking the law with illegal substances.

Whatever the IPT decides to do, it will be fine for me, but I'm not so sure about at least half of the other members. That number is high because of drinking and smoking, not because of illegal drug use. And if they are testing for legalized drugs - cigarettes and alcohol - then it seems a bit much.

CrownCityCorey

11-14-2005, 02:18 PM

But I don't feel these substances have benefits to top level professionals who can deal with their nerves and don't want the negative influences of these drugs affecting their thinking during matches.

The above statement seemed a little naive. At this moment in pro pool the use of drugs for performance enhancement and recreation is widespread. Yes Colin, even in the top ranks.

Ideally, (and perhaps in other more profitable sports) the top level athletes of a sport would be clean and enjoy the greater long term benefits of that. However, Pool Player athletes are relatively short sighted. I believe due to the financial state of Pro Pool.

The negative influences you speak of don't come in to play within the matches. They come in to play in the rest of their lives (health, family and home).

All most of the guys out there know is, that they need to win this match to make it to the next tournament and that takes precedent. I don't blame any of them for what they do, however it needs to stop somewhere and sometime, why not now!?!

rackmsuckr

11-14-2005, 02:21 PM

I'm like Colin. I take no banned substances or even prescription drugs at all and am very vocal about being anti-drug and nicotine. I only drink socially a couple times a year. I do however feel that, depending on how stringently they want to test, that it could go too far.

Usually, at the day's end of matches, people do congregate in the bar and relax and drink a few. We are not driving, most of us, and even if I do have my limit of 2 wines or champagnes, I start feeling the effects after only a couple sips. (I know, I'm a lightweight!) Given the example stated above where a 220 pound person can only drink 2 or 3 beers per hour to stay under the limit, that would be really hard for me to do. Detoxification can take a couple days before it is all out of the liver, not sure of the bloodstream.

If they were to test the next day, most people would fail. Are we then to never drink at these tournament venues, even after-hours? And I shudder to think what the smokers are going to think. Now there are only 2 reasons I can see to drug test - to enhance performance or on-the-job safety. The 3rd corollory reason is so that people don't act like idiots, which as we have all seen, some are going to do anyway. :p And I guess another would be to see who is breaking the law with illegal substances.

Whatever the IPT decides to do, it will be fine for me, but I'm not so sure about at least half of the other members. That number is high because of drinking and smoking, not because of illegal drug use. And if they are testing for legalized drugs - cigarettes and alcohol - then it seems a bit much.

Just to prove my point, here is a picture of Allsion, Jennifer Chen and others relaxing with alcohol (I actually did NOT have anything in my hands, even though it looks like it!) and Helena was also at the table. What would have happened if they had been tested the next day???

Jimmy M.

11-14-2005, 02:33 PM

What would have happened if they had been tested the next day???

Absolutely nothing! Alcohol is NOT an illegal or banned substance, nor do you need a prescription for it. When did this discussion turn to the topic of social drinking?

Colin Colenso

11-14-2005, 02:37 PM

The above statement seemed a little naive. At this moment in pro pool the use of drugs for performance enhancement and recreation is widespread. Yes Colin, even in the top ranks.

Ideally, (and perhaps in other more profitable sports) the top level athletes of a sport would be clean and enjoy the greater long term benefits of that. However, Pool Player athletes are relatively short sighted. I believe due to the financial state of Pro Pool.

The negative influences you speak of don't come in to play within the matches. They come in to play in the rest of their lives (health, family and home).

All most of the guys out there know is, that they need to win this match to make it to the next tournament and that takes precedent. I don't blame any of them for what they do, however it needs to stop somewhere and sometime, why not now!?!
I think we should separate out recreational use and performance enhancement use.

What percentage of players in the WPC do you think were taking enhancement drugs to play? My guess is less than 5%.

Maybe in US tournies the figures are higher. I don't believe it is common in snooker.

What are your estimates and what are they taking?

BRKNRUN

11-14-2005, 02:51 PM

Your question makes an assumption based on no facts. How do you know if there are no drugs being used? I guess if your assumption were correct, then sure, why bother? Your assumption may or may not be correct though.

So when was the last time you felt like you were playing a player that was "on" (something)???.....I will guess 2 years... ;)

Blackjack

11-14-2005, 03:07 PM

See my posts above directed to you which I believe fill the requirements of your request.

Not at all. I don't see anything of substance as it relates to the conversation. Just a lot of "IPT or nothing at all" coming from you. The WCBS serves more people than the IPT and it has a responsibility to those players.

I think you are way off the boat in your faith in the IOC.

In what way? This work has been going on since the early 1970's. Just because a Billionaire shows up, we are all supposed to stop what we've been doing and buy a book?

I don't intend to argue this in a vitriolic manner, but it is something I believe strongly in, and think you may change your mind about.

No, its safe to say you don't have anything of value to add to the conversation, so you're looking for an exit. As far as me changing my mind, don't hold your breath. I proudly suport Jorgen Sandman and the entire WCBS, as well as the WPA and Ian Anderson,their president. They are working towards something that benefits players (amateur & professionally) . If you have anything that disputes that then please add it to the conversation. These organizations are more than willing to work with KT, but he refuses to acknowledge them. He has nothing to lose at all by working with these organizations, in fact it will make the IPT stronger and nobody realizes that. That is the saddest part of all

+++++++++++

Jimmy M.

11-14-2005, 03:17 PM

You know who Jimmy, he came & played Bryce in AZ a few years back.

The drugs they should look for are the illegal and prescription ones. If you have prescription ones in your system, then you must provide a legitimate medical reason (doctor's note) for it. If not, bye, bye :D

Yeah. I know who it is. It was the same story here. He was visibly on something but his chemical mixture must have not been right because he played terrible that day.

Jimmy M.

11-14-2005, 03:20 PM

So when was the last time you felt like you were playing a player that was "on" (something)???.....I will guess 2 years... ;)

I've engaged in a little chemical warfare on more than one occasion, but I don't know when the last time was. Honestly, I don't pay too much attention unless it's visibly obvious.

bud green

11-14-2005, 03:55 PM

Do pro golfers or poker players have to submit to testing? Seems Daly made comments some years back saying guys would come up dirty. I don't think they test, but honestly don't know for sure.

I threw in poker because in most sports, steroids is without question the biggest problem. Steroids give almost everyone more speed, power,etc...

Seems to me, no drug in the world will make someone consistently play better pool in a tournement format with anywhere near the effect of steroids in games like baseball or football. Pool seems closer to poker than football. Its athletic but not power based- who's going to take steroids so they can break harder?

Seems people want Olympic committee rules around here. What about caffeine, using asthma inhalers, being on cold medicine? How far are people suggesting they go with this? I can see the illegal drugs thing, but what if someone has a prescription for an adrenaline blocker?

***I think someone said there was a max .04 alcohol stipulation in the testing process the IPT wants, Jimmy, is why someone posted the ladies partying it up.

5aheadforpinks

11-14-2005, 04:30 PM

I dont think it would be good for the sport to have all these pool players bouncing off the walls on black beuties; or to have them comatos in their chairs junked out. Also it wouldnt be good for a player to be falling down drunk, cursing his opponent.
BUT... there are only 150 people. They were hand selected. It would be pretty easy to spot the abusers in the crowd.
Personally I dont think they should drug test for anything, because what you do in your own private life is your business, and no one elses. Anyone read "Banking with the Beard" the part about the junkie; they would make him clean up before taking him on the road. He wasnt junked out while playing... because he knew he couldnt play as well.
I dont think there is a problem with anyone that was picked... none of these guys are hopped up on oxycontins or beta blockers. But if they are, and they can do it without being noticed... they will never play as consistant as those who are not. The cream WILL rise.

Jimmy M.

11-14-2005, 04:33 PM

***I think someone said there was a max .04 alcohol stipulation in the testing process the IPT wants, Jimmy, is why someone posted the ladies partying it up.

Ahh, well, that would probably never happen. That sounds more like something someone made up to exaggerate the extent of drug testing. Basically, what I'm pretty sure Corey was talking about when he started the thread was illegal and illegally obtained prescription drugs.

Rude Dog

11-14-2005, 04:46 PM

Drug testing to play pool? Why not? I piss in a bottle once a week for this fine government, ya just get used to it when you have to do it. The people that got selected should be taking this serious because there's plenty of guys waiting in the wings to get a spot to have a chance to make that kind of money. (My avatar is just a joke, please don't take it serious)

Gerald

11-14-2005, 08:34 PM

Rude Dog--great toke--I mean joke.

Gabber

11-14-2005, 09:16 PM

Whatever the IPT decides to do, it will be fine for me, but I'm not so sure about at least half of the other members. That number is high because of drinking and smoking, not because of illegal drug use. And if they are testing for legalized drugs - cigarettes and alcohol - then it seems a bit much. :confused:
LOL.
R, have you been drinking? :)

Gabber......... :p

Colin Colenso

11-14-2005, 09:50 PM

Not at all. I don't see anything of substance as it relates to the conversation. Just a lot of "IPT or nothing at all" coming from you. The WCBS serves more people than the IPT and it has a responsibility to those players.

Colin Wrote: I think you are way off the boat in your faith in the IOC.

BJ: In what way? This work has been going on since the early 1970's. Just because a Billionaire shows up, we are all supposed to stop what we've been doing and buy a book?

Colin Worte: I don't intend to argue this in a vitriolic manner, but it is something I believe strongly in, and think you may change your mind about.

BJ: No, its safe to say you don't have anything of value to add to the conversation, so you're looking for an exit. As far as me changing my mind, don't hold your breath. I proudly suport Jorgen Sandman and the entire WCBS, as well as the WPA and Ian Anderson,their president. They are working towards something that benefits players (amateur & professionally) . If you have anything that disputes that then please add it to the conversation. These organizations are more than willing to work with KT, but he refuses to acknowledge them. He has nothing to lose at all by working with these organizations, in fact it will make the IPT stronger and nobody realizes that. That is the saddest part of all

I already stated that the IOC empowering international federations like the WCBS actually prevents sports entrepreneurs from getting involved in sports. Traditional Olympic sports have almost entirely been choked out of reaching their potential. Athletics, gymnastics, swimming and dozens of others.

It has been non-olympic sports such as tennis, golf, F1, pro-wrestling, soccer etc that have thrived and the IOC has been trying to some of them back on board to gain credibility.

Centralized, government protected governing bodies are assured to stifle development. Just as centralization and government protected monopolies in idustry lead to poor products and services.

I met Michael Payne, former marketing director of the IOC a few months ago, the guy is credited as having played a major role in saving the IOC from its likely demise before 1984, and gained some more insights into the IOC that convinced me the organization is not a good platform for sports seeking to become high profile successful sports.

He is now with F1 as Bernie Ecclestone's right hand man.

Show me some cases of sports that have become successful after they have joined the olympics, then you may have a case study worth comparing and considering.

Some facts:
1. WPA is not inviting cooperation, they are charging a hefty fee.
2. Billiards is not likely to be included in the Olympics before 2016 at the earliest and you'd even get good odds it won't be included in the next 20 years.
3. By joining the WPA, the IPT would have limitations placed on their decision making process. Interferences and pressures that may not suit their interests in development. So yes, KT does have something to lose out of cooperating with the WPA.

Are you also a big fan of the EU and empowering the centralized US Federeal Government? The economics are basically the same.

bud green

11-15-2005, 06:31 AM

I guess its a good sign that someone is willing to spend more money on testing for drugs (150 players times 200 per test = 30K) than most pro events in the US have in their prize fund. Reno is next month at the Sands; first is what, $12K ?

The cheap drug test ($20) doesn't test for anything other than a few illicit drugs. Illegal prescription drugs and anything other than speed,thc,coke,etc... is usually done on a Gas chromatograph/mass spectrometer and tests like that start to get expensive quick.

Did I mention that when the column gets dirty or contaminated you get things like trailing peaks and other errors that can give you erroneous results? Might only happen 1 in 10,000 but if its you, too bad.

Hey Jimmy! the test that can trace back the farthest is a hair sample test. My friend ended up shaving his head they took so much hair for the test (so he could work for Frito-Lay chips). My question is, what hairs are you going to give them in that case? :D

Once players start getting paid big $$, they probably won't think testing is that big a deal. If they asked players to test for the money that's out there now, they'd tell them to get ****ed most likely.

Rude Dog

11-15-2005, 07:28 AM

The cheap drug test ($20) doesn't test for anything other than a few illicit drugs. Illegal prescription drugs and anything other than speed,thc,coke,etc... is usually done on a Gas chromatograph/mass spectrometer and tests like that start to get expensive quick.
They also test for opiates
Did I mention that when the column gets dirty or contaminated you get things like trailing peaks and other errors that can give you erroneous results? Might only happen 1 in 10,000 but if its you, too bad.

It's happened to me 3 times in less than 3 years of testing. All 3 times it came out positive in the bottle for thc, but after going to the lab and being tested, came back negative. Up until just 5 weeks ago, all of my tests were sent to the lab because they always come out positive for opiates because I take vicodin and finally the government figured out that I don't take anything else that fits into the opiate category. As far as how much these tests cost? I have no idea, they pay for my testing.

Mr. Wilson

11-15-2005, 07:47 AM

While I am for testing, they need clear guidelines.

In the mean time, don't eat too many poppyseed bagles!

chefjeff

11-15-2005, 08:35 AM

chefjeff

11-15-2005, 08:51 AM

(snip)

The drugs they should look for are the illegal and prescription ones. If you have prescription ones in your system, then you must provide a legitimate medical reason (doctor's note) for it. If not, bye, bye :D

See, this is the direction it goes and this is one of my main reasons for being against drug-testing. You are basically saying that the pool industry should be DEA agents. When the War On (some) Drugs has been shown to be a complete and utter failure for its 40+ year history, why advocate becoming a part of that farce?

Private organizations can require tests to do business with them if they want, but the costs (and I don't mean just dollars) can be higher than they know, what with lost opportunities, etc. I would never go to work for someone who made me piss in a cup and it would be his loss as I'm a good, proven worker. Now if the boss lets me look in his wife's underwear drawer, I might pee for him as a trade. :p

Jeff Livingston

chefjeff

11-15-2005, 09:20 AM

How do you know there isnt a problem if there has never been any testing?

(snip)

Gabber

How do we know you haven't been beating your wife if you won't let us see her? ;)

Jeff Livingston

Gabber

11-15-2005, 10:27 AM

How do we know you haven't been beating your wife if you won't let us see her? ;)

Jeff Livingston

We could have her examined/tested? :p

Do you remember Ben Johnston?
How would you feel if you had trained everyday for 8/15 years to be the best and just when you are about to achieve that goal ,some guy who is CHEATING [ full of drugs] pips you on the post?
Is that ok with you?
Do you agree with that?
Look at the recent Baseball drug scandals. The sport is AWASH with players on steroids and G-d knows what and they dont want to do anything about it. Are they the kind of hero's that you want your kids to look up to? Any kid? I dont think so.
If KT is really serious about changing the face of pool, the players have to be clean. Thats probably one of the reasons why he doesnt want to work with the other pool orginisations - too many conditions.

Last year, R. Ferdinand, top player for Man U and England was suspended for 9 months!!!!! just because he MISSED a drug test [ BTW it was between seasons!] He never proved positive for any banned substance.

Gabber

Black-Balled

11-15-2005, 10:39 AM

We could have her examined/tested? :p

How would you feel if you had trained everyday for 8/15 years to be the best and just when you are about to achieve that goal ,some guy who is CHEATING [ full of drugs] pips you on the post?
Is that ok with you?

Gabber
2nd place? not too bad.Makes you the best loser anyway.

But what about this scenario: hopolicy dictates that your first failed test requires immediate dismissal from your paying gig, then you may be re-hired, if your b sample is clean?
I believe that is worse. And it happens LOTS.

uwate

11-15-2005, 03:05 PM

Man it sounds like in the search for respectability, pool sure is going to get boring. No gambling, no booze, no drugs....pretty soon they will bar the scantily clad hotties from coming.

rackmsuckr

11-15-2005, 03:46 PM

Man it sounds like in the search for respectability, pool sure is going to get boring. No gambling, no booze, no drugs....pretty soon they will bar the scantily clad hotties from coming.

Not to worry. I am including 2 pics here. One is from the banner ad on AZ Billiards here, advertising their calendar girls. WARNING, may need drugs to view the next one! The other one, for all you posters, please do not open if you are offended by nudity! God sure gave us beautiful bodies, didn't he??? I included 2 pics here because then the one wouldn't just be sitting there offending everyone, you have to open it first. So I don't want to hear any flak from anyone saying they were offended from these 'scantily clad hotties'...you opened it! LOL.

APA9

11-15-2005, 05:12 PM

Sounds to me like a lot of people just want to do drugs. How does drug testing = taking all the fun out of pool? If that's what's fun about pool to you, you shouldn't be playing on any professional tour.

mnShooter

11-15-2005, 08:22 PM

I started a job once. My manager informed me that there was going to be a drug test. :confused: I didn't hear anything about a drug test. He says "Yeah, you bring in your drugs and we'll test 'em". Buncha pot heads. :D

pooladdict

11-16-2005, 04:14 AM

Not to worry. I am including 2 pics here. One is from the banner ad on AZ Billiards here, advertising their calendar girls. WARNING, may need drugs to view the next one! The other one, for all you posters, please do not open if you are offended by nudity! God sure gave us beautiful bodies, didn't he??? I included 2 pics here because then the one wouldn't just be sitting there offending everyone, you have to open it first. So I don't want to hear any flak from anyone saying they were offended from these 'scantily clad hotties'...you opened it! LOL.

Is that Grady Mathews to the left? :eek:

chefjeff

11-16-2005, 07:52 AM

We could have her examined/tested? :p

Do you remember Ben Johnston?
How would you feel if you had trained everyday for 8/15 years to be the best and just when you are about to achieve that goal ,some guy who is CHEATING [ full of drugs] pips you on the post?
Is that ok with you?
Do you agree with that?
Look at the recent Baseball drug scandals. The sport is AWASH with players on steroids and G-d knows what and they dont want to do anything about it. Are they the kind of hero's that you want your kids to look up to? Any kid? I dont think so.
If KT is really serious about changing the face of pool, the players have to be clean. Thats probably one of the reasons why he doesnt want to work with the other pool orginisations - too many conditions.

Last year, R. Ferdinand, top player for Man U and England was suspended for 9 months!!!!! just because he MISSED a drug test [ BTW it was between seasons!] He never proved positive for any banned substance.

Gabber

Gabber, I'm not advocating drug use for pro players; I'm trying to increase understanding of some of the shortfalls of testing. Things such as, false positives, which drugs are OK which are not, what is a "drug," what is not a "drug," does it matter if it is a "drug" or just a chemical substance, does legal or not really matter, can any substance really help players, is it bad if a substance helps a player, why, what substances are Ok to help and which are not Ok to help, what is "helping" a player anyway, and the main point of my posts is to promote objective justice and liberty in deciding these issues, especially in the pool world, where we can become leaders in this touchy area.

Example: In this years VNEA state tourney, I was playing for second place, race to two (yikes!). I won the first game and suddenly my young opponent says he has to go to the bathroom, which seemed strange to me as we had really just started the match. Well, he comes back all happy and focused, breaks and runs out. He won the next game and therefore the match.

So, I'm thinking he's tweakin' and I'm not too happy about it. But then I get objective with myself and realize that I have no real evidence that he's using and maybe I'm just pissed at myself for losing and am using a convenient excuse to not have to face that truth.

And then I realize that even if he was using, did that use actually help him win? Again, I have no way of knowing....correlation doesn't mean causation. And then I'm thinking that maybe substances to improve are not a bad thing, as everybody uses some kinds of things to improve (foods, caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.). So then I'm thinking which substances would be OK and why? So, by the time I'm done thinking about it, I'm leaning towards anyone using anything there is to play better, not just legal drugs or prescribed drugs or gentle drugs or natural food supplements or herbs or even crystal meth but anything there is, available to all, steroids, artificial eyeballs when they become available, surgeries for backs, eyes, arms, etc., etc,. I'm thinking where does it stop or should it stop and why? Maybe this is the future of accomplishment for humans.

Testing seems so stupid and shallow and insignificant and problematic in light of all that and it had better be considered carefully. That's all.

Thanks for responding in a civilized matter,

Jeff Livingston

Snapshot9

11-16-2005, 08:35 AM

Gabber, I'm not advocating drug use for pro players; I'm trying to increase understanding of some of the shortfalls of testing. Things such as, false positives, which drugs are OK which are not, what is a "drug," what is not a "drug," does it matter if it is a "drug" or just a chemical substance, does legal or not really matter, can any substance really help players, is it bad if a substance helps a player, why, what substances are Ok to help and which are not Ok to help, what is "helping" a player anyway, and the main point of my posts is to promote objective justice and liberty in deciding these issues, especially in the pool world, where we can become leaders in this touchy area.

Example: In this years VNEA state tourney, I was playing for second place, race to two (yikes!). I won the first game and suddenly my young opponent says he has to go to the bathroom, which seemed strange to me as we had really just started the match. Well, he comes back all happy and focused, breaks and runs out. He won the next game and therefore the match.

So, I'm thinking he's tweakin' and I'm not too happy about it. But then I get objective with myself and realize that I have no real evidence that he's using and maybe I'm just pissed at myself for losing and am using a convenient excuse to not have to face that truth.

And then I realize that even if he was using, did that use actually help him win? Again, I have no way of knowing....correlation doesn't mean causation. And then I'm thinking that maybe substances to improve are not a bad thing, as everybody uses some kinds of things to improve (foods, caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.). So then I'm thinking which substances would be OK and why? So, by the time I'm done thinking about it, I'm leaning towards anyone using anything there is to play better, not just legal drugs or prescribed drugs or gentle drugs or natural food supplements or herbs or even crystal meth but anything there is, available to all, steroids, artificial eyeballs when they become available, surgeries for backs, eyes, arms, etc., etc,. I'm thinking where does it stop or should it stop and why? Maybe this is the future of accomplishment for humans.

Testing seems so stupid and shallow and insignificant and problematic in light of all that and it had better be considered carefully. That's all.

Thanks for responding in a civilized matter,

Jeff Livingston

Jeff ... You brought up some good points. Just using your example that
you gave, what if you had refused to play the guy in the VNEA state tourney
because you knew he was obviously on drugs? Suppose you took your
complaint to the tournament director? What would be the tournament
director's responsibility for investigating the complaint? And what would
happen if this happened in the IPT?

rackmsuckr

11-16-2005, 09:03 AM

Is that Grady Mathews to the left? :eek:

Geez, I hope he's a bigger man than that! Grady, response? ROFLMAO :p

Colin Colenso

11-17-2005, 09:47 AM

Gabber, I'm not advocating drug use for pro players; I'm trying to increase understanding of some of the shortfalls of testing. Things such as, false positives, which drugs are OK which are not, what is a "drug," what is not a "drug," does it matter if it is a "drug" or just a chemical substance, does legal or not really matter, can any substance really help players, is it bad if a substance helps a player, why, what substances are Ok to help and which are not Ok to help, what is "helping" a player anyway, and the main point of my posts is to promote objective justice and liberty in deciding these issues, especially in the pool world, where we can become leaders in this touchy area.

Example: In this years VNEA state tourney, I was playing for second place, race to two (yikes!). I won the first game and suddenly my young opponent says he has to go to the bathroom, which seemed strange to me as we had really just started the match. Well, he comes back all happy and focused, breaks and runs out. He won the next game and therefore the match.

So, I'm thinking he's tweakin' and I'm not too happy about it. But then I get objective with myself and realize that I have no real evidence that he's using and maybe I'm just pissed at myself for losing and am using a convenient excuse to not have to face that truth.

And then I realize that even if he was using, did that use actually help him win? Again, I have no way of knowing....correlation doesn't mean causation. And then I'm thinking that maybe substances to improve are not a bad thing, as everybody uses some kinds of things to improve (foods, caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.). So then I'm thinking which substances would be OK and why? So, by the time I'm done thinking about it, I'm leaning towards anyone using anything there is to play better, not just legal drugs or prescribed drugs or gentle drugs or natural food supplements or herbs or even crystal meth but anything there is, available to all, steroids, artificial eyeballs when they become available, surgeries for backs, eyes, arms, etc., etc,. I'm thinking where does it stop or should it stop and why? Maybe this is the future of accomplishment for humans.

Testing seems so stupid and shallow and insignificant and problematic in light of all that and it had better be considered carefully. That's all.

Thanks for responding in a civilized matter,

Jeff Livingston
Jeff,
You have a good point regarding why should humans stop the pursuit of acquiring and using substances that can improve mental or physical performance.

There is an entire science based on neurotrophic improvement. Many of the compounds developed are useful in preventing the degeneration of brain activity.

There are health conscious groups who take combinations of amino acids like inisotol and choline and various other compounds and claim that they improve their mental functioning and general level of happiness without addictive or other harmful side effects.

So if compounds could make us smarter and deal with pressure better, and live longer healthier and productive lives without serious side effects, what would be the sense in stopping this?

Maybe we should ban meditation, wearing headsets, sefl-hypnosis and other un-natural acts.:rolleyes:

TheBook

11-17-2005, 11:12 AM

Watching Alex break I think he is on steriods.

BlackDragon

11-17-2005, 11:19 AM

I thought why pool was so popular was thats its the only sport wheres its socially accepted to play drunk. They do play it in bars, don't they, more than anywhere else and lots of pool comps I've been to they want you to drink....

Jimmy M.

11-17-2005, 07:42 PM

lots of pool comps I've been to they want you to drink....

Ummm ... professional events? Go play in a small, rinky-dink golf tournament some time. They want you to drink there too. I don't see Tiger boozing it up during the Masters though.

chefjeff

11-18-2005, 07:36 AM

Jeff ... You brought up some good points. Just using your example that
you gave, what if you had refused to play the guy in the VNEA state tourney
because you knew he was obviously on drugs? Suppose you took your
complaint to the tournament director? What would be the tournament
director's responsibility for investigating the complaint? And what would
happen if this happened in the IPT?

Hi Scott...sorry about the delay in responding...I couldn't get into this new system.

What if I had refused to play the guy and complained to the TD? First, I'd be a super wuss and wouldn't do that without a real reason for complaining. :eek:

Second, I had gotten up early that morning, taken a short walk, eaten a nice high protein breakfast, taken my food supplements, including one called Stress Relief Complex which has ingredietns called Ashwagandha Root Extract and Beta Sitosterol and L-Tyrosine, and I'd had a good boost of caffeine (and I'd been up late the night before partying in a hotel room so who knows what in my system?). All consumed in an effort to play my best, to get an edge over the competition.

Now, which player would have had a legitimate complaint against the other for using chemical substances, he or I?

Jeff Livingston

Colin Colenso

11-18-2005, 08:27 AM

Hi Scott...sorry about the delay in responding...I couldn't get into this new system.

What if I had refused to play the guy and complained to the TD? First, I'd be a super wuss and wouldn't do that without a real reason for complaining. :eek:

Second, I had gotten up early that morning, taken a short walk, eaten a nice high protein breakfast, taken my food supplements, including one called Stress Relief Complex which has ingredietns called Ashwagandha Root Extract and Beta Sitosterol and L-Tyrosine, and I'd had a good boost of caffeine (and I'd been up late the night before partying in a hotel room so who knows what in my system?). All consumed in an effort to play my best, to get an edge over the competition.

Now, which player would have had a legitimate complaint against the other for using chemical substances, he or I?

Jeff Livingston
Stop being so logical Jeff!

Don't you know that it's only right to make sure everyone is doing the right thing, in accordance with the general opinion of high school teachers and TV news anchors? Gosh, think of the communal interest!:rolleyes:

Nothing good ever came of rocking the boat:p :cool:

Str8PoolMan

11-18-2005, 05:02 PM

No matter how you spin it, drug testing is an invasion of privacy and a violation of the 4th amendment of the Constitution (illegal search and seizure). It never ceases to amaze me how often people are willing to give up their rights and liberties in order to try to solve a problem.
Several people have said, "If you are innocent, you have nothing to worry about." This is something the police always say when they want to search your car or your house when they have no right. If federal authorities told you that it was necessary to perform random searches of your residence, in order to stop terrorism, would you allow it? I mean, hey, if you are innocent then you have nothing to worry about, right? Our constitutional rights and civil liberties are designed to protect the innocent, not the guilty.

chefjeff

11-19-2005, 07:50 AM

Jeff,
(snip)
So if compounds could make us smarter and deal with pressure better, and live longer healthier and productive lives without serious side effects, what would be the sense in stopping this?

Power and control. If individuals are allowed to be free, then why do we need power-freak "leaders?" If individuals are allowed to be free to chose how to best utilize their bodies, then why do we need the War on (some) Drugs? If we don't need the WoD's then why do we need the massive growing prison industry, the overreaching court system, 75% of the police force, more reductions in our liberties, more restrictions on our movements, more invasion of our privacy, more of "saving us" by our politicians, more foreign intervention inside drug producting countries?...and don't forget, saving the children! :eek: It's one of the sneakiest excuses that any govt has ever dreamed up in order to gain power.

Have you read any of Ron Bailey's stuff in Reason:
http://reason.com/debate/eh-debate1.shtml
He's exploring these issues with...well...what else, reason...and is asking these types of questions about the direction we're headed in life extension, enhancement, etc. We're at a critical point of a complete power grab of our liberties by mostly religious-backed govts.

You're going to be in Florida for the IPT, so you might want to stay til the next weekend and check out this conference:

http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/first-annual-colloquium-on-the-law-of-transhuman-persons-dec-9-10-florida/

That web site has a bunch of great articles about this subject, btw, and should be of interest to any pool players who use or are considering the issue carefully.

Enjoy,

Jeff Livingston

supergreenman

11-21-2005, 04:29 PM

It has been non-olympic sports such as tennis, golf, F1, pro-wrestling, soccer etc that have thrived and the IOC has been trying to some of them back on board to gain credibility.

Since when were pro-wrestling and credibility allowed in the same sentance with out a negative identifier.

Colin Colenso

11-21-2005, 07:53 PM

Power and control. If individuals are allowed to be free, then why do we need power-freak "leaders?" If individuals are allowed to be free to chose how to best utilize their bodies, then why do we need the War on (some) Drugs? If we don't need the WoD's then why do we need the massive growing prison industry, the overreaching court system, 75% of the police force, more reductions in our liberties, more restrictions on our movements, more invasion of our privacy, more of "saving us" by our politicians, more foreign intervention inside drug producting countries?...and don't forget, saving the children! :eek: It's one of the sneakiest excuses that any govt has ever dreamed up in order to gain power.

Have you read any of Ron Bailey's stuff in Reason:
http://reason.com/debate/eh-debate1.shtml
He's exploring these issues with...well...what else, reason...and is asking these types of questions about the direction we're headed in life extension, enhancement, etc. We're at a critical point of a complete power grab of our liberties by mostly religious-backed govts.

You're going to be in Florida for the IPT, so you might want to stay til the next weekend and check out this conference:

http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/first-annual-colloquium-on-the-law-of-transhuman-persons-dec-9-10-florida/

That web site has a bunch of great articles about this subject, btw, and should be of interest to any pool players who use or are considering the issue carefully.

Enjoy,

Jeff Livingston
I'll try to check out Ron's stuff. I'm guessing it's similar to a lot of other stuff I used to read, but could be some new stuff worth checking out!

I have to get back straight after the IPT for business unfortunately, but thanks for the heads up Jeff.