Billiard Room Design & Ownership

[Nineballggs]

In response to "Big Daddy's" ...I want to add table sales to my billiard room.......


Welcome Billiard Fans.....My name is Gary Sanossian, I am writing this thread to offer my services to each and any one of you who would like help........ Below are my qualifications:

1......Designed & opened 18 UPSCALE Billiard rooms throughout the entire Northeast...

2......Playing Pro since 1978....

3......Have never been turned down for ANY license I have applied for....

4......Designed and Maintain 4 web sites....see below....

5......Wrote the law in the state of New Hampshire...concerning Liquor & Billiards.

6......Owned both Non-Smoking & Smoking Rooms....

7......First Billiard Room in Region to ADD Table Sales & Service to the business.

8......Grew to become the largest distributor in the country....( 15 State juristiction )

9......I Have the BEST Handicapping System for a league...

10.....I own and operate a Pro Billiard Tour...( BayState Invitational )

11.....Presently represent the best table manufacturer in the business...( ALL AMERICAN MADE )

Websites::) :) :) :)

www.leatherpocket.com...This site will offer a lot of direction...
www.baystateinvitational
www.thegolfershut.com
www.pitchingcoach101.com

I look forward to talking with anyone that would like help in this industry...

Check out the top two sites....and let me know if I can be of any help.....

[Chameleon]

#9 is simply laughable.

Best of what.....the worst?

There is no good system. It is impossible.

[Nineballggs]

#9 is simply laughable.

Best of what.....the worst?

There is no good system. It is impossible.

Don't knock it untill you have tried it.......It is not as tough as you think....

First little tip....You can't let "the players" control the league or the handicapp....I have found a way to virtually eliminate "Sandbagging"..
Believe me it works. I ran a $ 2,000 mens money league...Handicapped...and it worked like a charm.....The league lasted approx. 8 years............:) :) :) :)

[Chameleon]

Don't knock it untill you have tried it.......It is not as tough as you think....

First little tip....You can't let "the players" control the league or the handicapp....I have found a way to virtually eliminate "Sandbagging"..
Believe me it works. I ran a $ 2,000 mens money league...Handicapped...and it worked like a charm.....The league lasted approx. 8 years............:) :) :) :)

Riiiiiiight.

[xidica]

While I'm not trying to knock you here since I don't know you. Nobody I know is going to respect a "Here's why I'm awesome" list :

1. I'm really good at making these numbered lists. They're not bullet points!

2. I've made 9 posts!

3. My avatar is really cool!

Billiard room design isn't something I'd be contracting out. If you can't figure out a good layout/business plan for a pool room I don't think you should be in the business of starting one. It's a rough business.

[Kevin Lindstrom]

I for one would love to see the list of the 18 rooms that you have been associated with opening. It would be a perfect way for me to see a living thriving resume of sorts.

[Hambone]

I'm not so sure about Golden West tables being "the best table manufacturer in the business" but the Kling sure is a nice looking table. Out of curiosity how much do they retail for?

[Nineballggs]

I'm not so sure about Golden West tables being "the best table manufacturer in the business" but the Kling sure is a nice looking table. Out of curiosity how much do they retail for?

I do not think it is appropriate to use this venue for pricing...........Pricing depends on the following items........

Shipping costs...all tables are F.O.B. Portland, Oregon
Where you are ,,, in what part of the country
What size table are you interested in...??? 8 or 9 footer...

If you call me, I will be more than happy to give you whatever info you need.....Phone number is on the web site...G

[manwon]

I do not think it is appropriate to use this venue for pricing...........Pricing depends on the following items........

Shipping costs...all tables are F.O.B. Portland, Oregon
Where you are ,,, in what part of the country
What size table are you interested in...??? 8 or 9 footer...

If you call me, I will be more than happy to give you whatever info you need.....Phone number is on the web site...G

Hey, I would also like to know the names of the rooms you have designed and setup.

I would also like to know the name of the league you started and ran by the rules you designed.

Please list the names and the locations of these rooms.

I would like to check you out!!!!

Another poster asked these same questions and you failed to answer him, I truly would like to hear your side, before I make up my mind about you.

However, not to answer these requests will also ruin your credibility just as quick.

Have a nice day, night, or morning whenever you ready this post.

PS. Do not try to blow smoke up the dog's butt!!! This Dog bites!!!!

Manwon

[SlateHumper]

I'm great and so am I and if you ask me I will tell you how great I am but I won't tell you what you want to know but I will tell you that I'm great and that is all you need to know cuz I'm great and if you don't believe me just ask me and I will tell you how great I am.

[Nineballggs]

Sorry Folks ....I have been away from my computer for a while.....
Here is a list of some of the rooms I have sold, designed, and installed....

4......Leather Pocket Rooms, NH. & Mass

Miller Place Billiards, Long Island, NY

The Green Room, Baltimore, Md.

Corner Pocket, Waterbury, Ct.

Antique Brass Rail, Newburgh, NY

Gallery Billiards, Newburgh, NY

2......In Peterborough, NH

1......In Worcester, Mass

Bank Shot Billiards, Hoboken, NJ

1......In Brunswick, NJ

1......In Holbrook, Mass

Fast Eddies Merrimack Billiards, Merrimack NH

There are others, but I believe this would answer your questions.


As Far as the Billiard League is concerned....I started The Queen City 9 Ball League in Manchester, NH........I believe it ran for some 8 or 9 years and was very successful......The handicapping system was quite unique....to say the least.........THERE WERE NO SANDBAGGERS......Like some of the leagues around today.............If you tried sandbagging....you "shot yourself in the foot"....You ultimately screwed yourself..................

While some of these rooms are still thriving........Some have closed up.....Just like any where in the country.....People opened Billiard Rooms....and for some strange reason they all thought they would become Millionaires.....People would walk into one of my rooms and say ...."Hey....this looks easy"....I think I'll do this.......HA.....with a capital H...........They quickly found out, it is not easy....and they actually needed to know something about the billiard industry.....DAAAAA what a concept....... They realized after investing their cash.....They had to do a very strange thing.........THEY HAD TO WORK>>>>>>>>>>. Sound like any of the rooms in your neck of the world......This business is Very Difficult...to make profitable.....without Poker Machines.....or serving miners, or drunks, with your liquor license..........I know I will get the question....."How come I don't have any more rooms".....Thats an easy one .......After 36 years in this industry....I decided....NO MORE liqour license.....NO More 24-7...hours.......Now I enjoy Golf, and riding my Harley.....Let someone else have ALL the fun.....chasing a $ 2.00 bottle of Bud.....or giving pool time away for $ 5 and you play all day..?????:) :) :) :)

[Kevin Lindstrom]

I was thinking of having you design a pool room for me but after have just read your last post, I think I will open a barber shop instead.

[Nineballggs]

I was thinking of having you design a pool room for me but after have just read your last post, I think I will open a barber shop instead.

Just look at the amount of rooms that have not made it....... The industry is at an all time low.......Oh, there are pockets of busy areas, but all in all the game is taking a major hit............. Just look at the rents for a large area of square footage........... Good luck with your barber shop....LoL.....!!!!!!

[manwon]

Sorry Folks ....I have been away from my computer for a while.....
Here is a list of some of the rooms I have sold, designed, and installed....

4......Leather Pocket Rooms, NH. & Mass

Miller Place Billiards, Long Island, NY

The Green Room, Baltimore, Md.

Corner Pocket, Waterbury, Ct.

Antique Brass Rail, Newburgh, NY

Gallery Billiards, Newburgh, NY

2......In Peterborough, NH

1......In Worcester, Mass

Bank Shot Billiards, Hoboken, NJ

1......In Brunswick, NJ

1......In Holbrook, Mass

Fast Eddies Merrimack Billiards, Merrimack NH

There are others, but I believe this would answer your questions.


As Far as the Billiard League is concerned....I started The Queen City 9 Ball League in Manchester, NH........I believe it ran for some 8 or 9 years and was very successful......The handicapping system was quite unique....to say the least.........THERE WERE NO SANDBAGGERS......Like some of the leagues around today.............If you tried sandbagging....you "shot yourself in the foot"....You ultimately screwed yourself..................

While some of these rooms are still thriving........Some have closed up.....Just like any where in the country.....People opened Billiard Rooms....and for some strange reason they all thought they would become Millionaires.....People would walk into one of my rooms and say ...."Hey....this looks easy"....I think I'll do this.......HA.....with a capital H...........They quickly found out, it is not easy....and they actually needed to know something about the billiard industry.....DAAAAA what a concept....... They realized after investing their cash.....They had to do a very strange thing.........THEY HAD TO WORK>>>>>>>>>>. Sound like any of the rooms in your neck of the world......This business is Very Difficult...to make profitable.....without Poker Machines.....or serving miners, or drunks, with your liquor license..........I know I will get the question....."How come I don't have any more rooms".....Thats an easy one .......After 36 years in this industry....I decided....NO MORE liqour license.....NO More 24-7...hours.......Now I enjoy Golf, and riding my Harley.....Let someone else have ALL the fun.....chasing a $ 2.00 bottle of Bud.....or giving pool time away for $ 5 and you play all day..?????
It is my opinion....The billiard game is dead....and I do not see it ever coming back..........Not like it used to be........Pool Players are like barbers.....I believe they are a dying breed.........But then again....thats just my opinion.............:) :) :) :)

Good morning Gary, if these are your true feelings, why would you start this post in the first place.:confused:

You appear to be a intelligent fellow, that knows what he is talking about. The only thing I do not understand, is if you truly feel this way how can you offer your services to anyone.:)

It appears to me that you have no confidences in this industry, or in your ability to design a Billiard Room that can make money, because as you said the game is dead, and all people do is give time away for $5 a day.:eek:

Strange thread Gary, but have a nice day, and try not to be so negative, you may have found yourself a sucker that would have let you design his / her room right here on AZ, praise the lord your true feelings came out before it was to late him / her.;)

Manwon

[Nineballggs]

Good morning Gary, if these are your true feelings, why would you start this post in the first place.:confused:

You appear to be a intelligent fellow, that knows what he is talking about. The only thing I do not understand, is if you truly feel this way how can you offer your services to anyone.:)

It appears to me that you have no confidences in this industry, or in your ability to design a Billiard Room that can make money, because as you said the game is dead, and all people do is give time away for $5 a day.:eek:

Strange thread Gary, but have a nice day, and try not to be so negative, you may have found yourself a sucker that would have let you design his / her room right here on AZ, praise the lord your true feelings came out before it was to late him / her.;)

Manwon

Thanks for your input........I originally posted this in response to "Big Daddy's..." I want to add table sales in my poolroom"....
You see...I too started in the poolroom business.....and with my Executive Sales Background ...I wanted to sell tables out of my billiard room.....First I became an "Agent" for a major manufacturer.( nobody would give you a dealership back then)....Then I became a Dealer.....Then I became their largest Distributor on the planet...... So ....I am very comfortable with the idea of adding sales to an upscale billiard room......I am not negative ....just truthfull....I have made a wonderfull living in this industry....and I have enjoyed every minute of it......You ended your response with a very telling phrase...( Praise The Lord)....I am a Christian, and I do not knowingly try to mis-lead anyone into this or any other business. For the right person.....this can be a very rewarding way to make a living.....To someone just trying to make a killing....or a lot of money....There are too many other ways of investing your money....Would I do it again NOW...........NO.......I have seen this happen no less than 3 times in my carreer....I have seen it run in 20 year spurts.........It is on an all time low now............Just look around the country....and see the rooms closing.........If you are not going to be a "Dave & Busters" this is not the time to go for it....................
You see.....That's just it ....I am not trying to sell anyone anything....You are right ....I know what I am talking about....I am merely offering ....My Services....to those who want them................
Anyone who knows this industry will tell you....Pool Players DO NOT support this industry....They never have.....You need Alcohol....Food .....Arcades....something to pay your rent.....Unfortunately....Too many operations resort to Drug Pushing..Selling Alcohol to people who are clearly Drunk....or to minors.......Poker Machines....or someway to make what I call "Dirty Money"

Thanks again for your input.............:) :) :) :)

[issycue]

Perhaps the market/industry requires some updating... dogs get old, people get bored, etc.etc. Haven't the bowling alleys accross the country re-invented themselves into profitability? Maybe alcohol/pool is not the way to go, unless your first priority is booze. New rules, new games, new styles of play? My question, have you come accross a room that has tried something new? Have any of your clients explored different business plans? And, what is the marketplace for rooms these days--families? drinkers? students? retirees? that's the kind of stuff I wouldn't mind reading about.

[issycue]

Thanks for your input........I originally posted this in response to "Big Daddy's..." I want to add table sales in my poolroom"....
You see...I too started in the poolroom business.....and with my Executive Sales Background ...I wanted to sell tables out of my billiard room.....First I became an "Agent" for a major manufacturer.( nobody would give you a dealership back then)....Then I became a Dealer.....Then I became their largest Distributor on the planet...... So ....I am very comfortable with the idea of adding sales to an upscale billiard room......I am not negative ....just truthfull....I have made a wonderfull living in this industry....and I have enjoyed every minute of it......You ended your response with a very telling phrase...( Praise The Lord)....I am a Christian, and I do not try knowingly try to mis-lead anyone into this or any other business. For the right person.....this can be a very rewarding way to make a living.....To someone just trying to make a killing....or a lot of money....There are too many other ways of investing your money....Would I do it again NOW...........NO.......I have seen this happen no less than 3 times in my carreer....I have seen it run in 20 year spurts.........It is on an all time low now............Just look around the country....and see the rooms closing.........If you are not going to be a "Dave & Busters" this is not the time to go for it....................
You see.....That's just it ....I am not trying to sell anyone anything....You are right ....I know what I am talking about....I am merely offering ....My Services....to those who want them................
Anyone who knows this industry will tell you....Pool Players DO NOT support this industry....They never have.....You need Alcohol....Food .....Arcades....something to pay your rent.....Unfortunately....Too many operations resort to Drug Pushing..Selling Alcohol to people who are clearly Drunk....or to minors.......Poker Machines....or someway to make what I call "Dirty Money"

Thanks again for your input.............:) :) :) :)


And, just another quick note... and no disrespect intended here... but if you have been so successful in the past, and seemingly continue to prosper in the industry, why not take the time now to give back to it? You say pool players do not support this industry. Yet I wonder, who paid your paycheck over the years? Alcoholics? the drug addicts? Crack dealers? the gamblers? I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you're not participating here to become part of a solution, then you are ultimately only part of the problem. You have the know-how, the resources, and the time (if the business is at an all time low)...your time is now, to make a difference, eh? make it better...

[Nineballggs]

Thank you for your reply...ISSYCUE.....Good Reading......I would invite you to go to my web site www.leatherpocket.com.....and click on The Controversial Corner.....Click on the 2006 season ( green )....and read my last article. You see, what you suggest sounds good....but just to give you an update in the Northeast.....There used to be a bowling alley in almost every town....there is now one.....and making no money... To get a better grip on my view....The problem is who is going to pay the rent and utilities on the facility you need to house a decent size room today...The housing market has gone the same way as this industry....You can't get a builder to build you a "ranch" anymore....."Ranch....they say....Shoot I am too busy building $ 800,000 houses". So where did the "Ranch" business go..???? The only facility left in this region has 40 some odd tables....and is a beautiful upscale room....It has been rated one of the top 5 rooms in the country. It is huge....now lets say you "Stole" the place for $5 a foot...Gross.....no triple net lease......Do you know what the rent is on a space with say 15,000 sq.ft. Try $75,000 per year...or $6,250 per month...and that is just THE RENT.....Keep in mind you would not want the place you get for $5 per foot.....Rents today are more like $10 to $20 per foot...and they want triple net.....thats usually another $2-$3 per foot..........Do the math.....There is not a billiard room around that can pay that "Nut"....I am talking about a billiard Room.....NOT a Dave & Busters.....That is not a Billiard Room.....It is an entertainment center....In fact their pool business is probably the smallest part of their revenue.... So, while I am not trying to sound negative....just realistic after doing it some 18 times.....Times have changed.....There is too much for people to do....and most people can't keep up with themselves...they are moving so fast ......If this business was doing so great or could rebound......Why are the ones left giving table time away...or offering fantastic deals all day.... Bottom Line.....If there was a market for the product.......You would see me right smack dab in the middle..... History shows.....it revolves in a 20 year cycle....It is on its way down...and has not hit bottom yet...
Now....If you find a first class location....not in some alley....or up three flights .....I mean a pristene location, NO Poles.....Does not need To have $100,000 renovation....and you can rent that space for $2.50 per foot GROSS......Now you have my attention.
See if you follow this ....This is a real scenario......
There is a room in Boston, that I have know for 35 years....The original owner...Jimmy Carass' cousin....Had it and paid $300 per month rent for 6000 sq. ft. OR $ .60 per foot ...Thats 60 cents.!!!!! That room today at a steal of $5 per foot would be $30,000 RENT....$30K versus $3,600 per year...... The tables Each in the first scenario cost....$2 of floor space per month....Today those same tables would cost $18 per month to take up the exact same space.....Any wonder why billiard rooms are dropping like flies......You see this is why I said ...." This game was never meant to be upscale" ....It can not afford the rent..............There are VERY few, if any Chevy Dealers in Orange County Ca. They too can't afford the rent.

Thank you for your input, I appreciate your comments......:) :) :) :)

[tigerallenyim]

Anyone who knows this industry will tell you....Pool Players DO NOT support this industry....They never have.....You need Alcohol....Food .....Arcades....something to pay your rent.....Unfortunately....Too many operations resort to Drug Pushing..Selling Alcohol to people who are clearly Drunk....or to minors.......Poker Machines....or someway to make what I call "Dirty Money"

Well I have to admit that most pool halls i have experienced were more geared toward entertainment. But I am certain there are still poolhalls that are geared just towards pool/billiards. It's funny, I think most pool halls should be something like that. Gearing towards the educatino of pool/billiards. I think of school.... If the room is not screaming education/learning... forget it! Fortunately for me, I live near a nice pool hall where others help, and vice versa. I don't much about the history of billiard halls, but I believe there is a reason for what it is now.

I believe that the industry maybe going in a different direction. Whether it evolves to something else again (in order to attract/thrive others), who knows. But I guess if we have some perserverance, we might just like the outcome.

My 2 cents.

[tigerallenyim]

See if you follow this ....This is a real scenario......
There is a room in Boston, that I have know for 35 years....The original owner...Jimmy Carass' cousin....Had it and paid $300 per month rent for 6000 sq. ft. OR $ .60 per foot ...Thats 60 cents.!!!!! That room today at a steal of $5 per foot would be $30,000 RENT....$30K versus $3,600 per year...... The tables Each in the first scenario cost....$2 of floor space per month....Today those same tables would cost $18 per month to take up the exact same space.....Any wonder why billiard rooms are dropping like flies......You see this is why I said ...." This game was never meant to be upscale" ....It can not afford the rent..............There are VERY few, if any Chevy Dealers in Orange County Ca. They too can't afford the rent.

I have to agree. But i am certain there is a solution. Any engineers out there? I guess when space was limited in offices, engineers came up with cubicles. And no, a pool table can't fit in a cubicle. But I think we all get the idea. I can take a hack at it tho. I do think outside the box, with Architectual skillz... along with a host of others.... but i rather not say...

[nfty9er]

Thank you for your reply...ISSYCUE.....Good Reading......I would invite you to go to my web site www.leatherpocket.com.....and click on The Controversial Corner.....Click on the 2006 season ( green )....and read my last article. You see, what you suggest sounds good....but just to give you an update in the Northeast.....There used to be a bowling alley in almost every town....there is now one.....and making no money... To get a better grip on my view....The problem is who is going to pay the rent and utilities on the facility you need to house a decent size room today...The housing market has gone the same way as this industry....You can't get a builder to build you a "ranch" anymore....."Ranch....they say....Shoot I am too busy building $ 800,000 houses". So where did the "Ranch" business go..???? The only facility left in this region has 40 some odd tables....and is a beautiful upscale room....It has been rated one of the top 5 rooms in the country. It is huge....now lets say you "Stole" the place for $5 a foot...Gross.....no triple net lease......Do you know what the rent is on a space with say 15,000 sq.ft. Try $75,000 per year...or $6,250 per month...and that is just THE RENT.....Keep in mind you would not want the place you get for $5 per foot.....Rents today are more like $10 to $20 per foot...and they want triple net.....thats usually another $2-$3 per foot..........Do the math.....There is not a billiard room around that can pay that "Nut"....I am talking about a billiard Room.....NOT a Dave & Busters.....That is not a Billiard Room.....It is an entertainment center....In fact their pool business is probably the smallest part of their revenue.... So, while I am not trying to sound negative....just realistic after doing it some 18 times.....Times have changed.....There is too much for people to do....and most people can't keep up with themselves...they are moving so fast ......If this business was doing so great or could rebound......Why are the ones left giving table time away...or offering fantastic deals all day.... Bottom Line.....If there was a market for the product.......You would see me right smack dab in the middle..... History shows.....it revolves in a 20 year cycle....It is on its way down...and has not hit bottom yet...
Now....If you find a first class location....not in some alley....or up three flights .....I mean a pristene location, NO Poles.....Does not need To have $100,000 renovation....and you can rent that space for $2.50 per foot GROSS......Now you have my attention.
See if you follow this ....This is a real scenario......
There is a room in Boston, that I have know for 35 years....The original owner...Jimmy Carass' cousin....Had it and paid $300 per month rent for 6000 sq. ft. OR $ .60 per foot ...Thats 60 cents.!!!!! That room today at a steal of $5 per foot would be $30,000 RENT....$30K versus $3,600 per year...... The tables Each in the first scenario cost....$2 of floor space per month....Today those same tables would cost $18 per month to take up the exact same space.....Any wonder why billiard rooms are dropping like flies......You see this is why I said ...." This game was never meant to be upscale" ....It can not afford the rent..............There are VERY few, if any Chevy Dealers in Orange County Ca. They too can't afford the rent.

Thank you for your input, I appreciate your comments......:) :) :) :)

Man you better learn some math. You are so far off it makes me wonder if you are a real b.s.er or are for real with no concept of figures.
Lets start, you , damn had to read it again, I dont know where to start.
You use the term foot and square foot so you confuse me. Either way
Nobody pays 5 bucks a sq. ft that would be 75000 a month not a year. And if you say it is 6250 a month you are only paying about 40 cents a sq. foot on 15000 sq. ft. Man I would love to pay that little a month .; I pay more than that for half the space and I do just fine. You are screwed up somewhere. Now if I had to pay 2.50 a sq. foot I would be out of business unless i charged 20 bucks an hour, for some reason you think people pay that in pool rooms. Your nuts. I and many room owners I know pay about a buck or more but less than 2 per sq ft. Now the next math problem, you say you friend paid 60 cents a sq ft on 6000 sq ft room. Man get a calculator. that is 3600 a month. Leases are per month where i come from not per year. You state 5 dollars, then if thats a month it would be 30000 a month, that is way to high, but it it is a year then that is a steal at about 2500 a month. My rent is 3 times that and It is fine That is only about 45 cents a sq. ft. per month. Plenty reasonable. You pay those high rents in the heart of cities not where you build pool rooms.
Remember the prices you are quoting is 35 years ago, my rent was cheap then too. Rent goes up, then pool time goes up. It is called inflation.
Buy a calculator or better explain your rant.

[watchez]

Man you better learn some math. You are so far off it makes me wonder if you are a real b.s.er or are for real with no concept of figures.
Lets start, you , damn had to read it again, I dont know where to start.
You use the term foot and square foot so you confuse me. Either way
Nobody pays 5 bucks a sq. ft that would be 75000 a month not a year. And if you say it is 6250 a month you are only paying about 40 cents a sq. foot on 15000 sq. ft. Man I would love to pay that little a month .; I pay more than that for half the space and I do just fine. You are screwed up somewhere. Now if I had to pay 2.50 a sq. foot I would be out of business unless i charged 20 bucks an hour, for some reason you think people pay that in pool rooms. Your nuts. I and many room owners I know pay about a buck or more but less than 2 per sq ft. Now the next math problem, you say you friend paid 60 cents a sq ft on 6000 sq ft room. Man get a calculator. that is 3600 a month. Leases are per month where i come from not per year. You state 5 dollars, then if thats a month it would be 30000 a month, that is way to high, but it it is a year then that is a steal at about 2500 a month. My rent is 3 times that and It is fine That is only about 45 cents a sq. ft. per month. Plenty reasonable. You pay those high rents in the heart of cities not where you build pool rooms.
Remember the prices you are quoting is 35 years ago, my rent was cheap then too. Rent goes up, then pool time goes up. It is called inflation.
Buy a calculator or better explain your rant.
Nfty, I don't know where you come from but when discussing a price per square foot it is per year, not per month. That is how rent is calculated here and how I thought it was calculated everywhere else in the country....well, except where you live. Possibly, you didn't negotiate your own lease & don't really understand the terminology. You don't need a calculator to show a basic example....5000 sq ft room @$15 a sq foot = $75,000 a year / 12 months = $6250 per month rent.

[nfty9er]

Nfty, I don't know where you come from but when discussing a price per square foot it is per year, not per month. That is how rent is calculated here and how I thought it was calculated everywhere else in the country....well, except where you live. Possibly, you didn't negotiate your own lease & don't really understand the terminology. You don't need a calculator to show a basic example....5000 sq ft room @$15 a sq foot = $75,000 a year / 12 months = $6250 per month rent.

Are we in the dark ages, I have owned 2 rooms over 30 years and all rooms out here are based on sq. ft. per month leases. Of course when you sign a lease they include in it the yearly cost of the lease. Doesnt matter as I pointed out his post is real confusing anyway as he thinks 6250 is outrageous to pay for 15000 sq. ft. I pointed that out if you say and i acknowledge I do not know if he is talking about per ft per year or per month. I would love to pay 6250 for 15000 sq. ft,, that is only 40 some cents a sq ft per month. Not much more than is quoted 60 sq ft. after 35 years. Yeh give me a break. He says no one can make it with rent, he is out of touch, I pay more than that for half the footage and have been in business 25 years. My rent has gone up over the years with inflation. I just adjust the best I can.

[racefornine]

I feel your pain nineballggs. I own Gallery Billiards Newburgh Ny. Business was on a steady decline over the last three years. The smoking ban,pokers popularity,and the economy were the key factors in my opinion. I have seen an increase in the last 6 months over last year.
I work very hard at my Job. I can only hope we have hit bottom and are on our way back up.
Your post was an excellent read. Call me if you remember the room. I am the third owner and would be interested in some the history in getting this room up and running. Thank you David Pinkston 845-565-1994.

[Nineballggs]

I feel your pain nineballggs. I own Gallery Billiards Newburgh Ny. Business was on a steady decline over the last three years. The smoking ban,pokers popularity,and the economy were the key factors in my opinion. I have seen an increase in the last 6 months over last year.
I work very hard at my Job. I can only hope we have hit bottom and are on our way back up.
Your post was an excellent read. Call me if you remember the room. I am the third owner and would be interested in some the history in getting this room up and running. Thank you David Pinkston 845-565-1994.

Of Course I remember the room.....I sold everything in it and installed it for its original owner John A. I also sold and designed Antique Brass Rail...Now gone ...also in Newburgh....Do you remember that room?????
I will give you a call..... Love to chat with you........

Hey Nifty 9er..... My numbers are correct....and they are quoted Based on a yearly basis....Did you here that.....Rent is always based on a year....NOT A MONTH......Can you sign a monthly lease????? Get real.......... Nobody signs a monthly lease....It is based on a yearly figure.....A monthly rent is "Tennant At Will".....Or did you never hear that term????? It figures you are from California. Oh by the way.......Rooms back here on the east coast.....GET $20 per hour to play pool...!!!!! We are not in the dark ages.....You can raise your rates all you want....There is a ceiling in this industry.....Thats why rooms have "bit the bullet"..... I played pool in a room that used to get $ 1.00 per hour FOR THE TABLE...UnLIMITED PLAYERS......When he raised his rates he went up $.10.....Thats 10 cents per hour... His rent was also $ 300 per month.. Today rooms back here are getting $ 5.00 per player per hour. All you Californians base your rent on monthly figures...????? when you go to the bank for a loan.......Do they ask you "Well Mr. Billiard Room Owner.....How much revenue do you do a month"????? NO ....Its how much do you do a YEAR...........A Lease is for a YEAR or more....I do not need a calculator...

Continued success....If you are paying your bills today....YOU ARE BLESSED....and you should count your blessings.....Rooms are dying all over the country.....THEY CAN'T PAY THEIR RENT........you can take that to the bank.......

[nfty9er]

Of Course I remember the room.....I sold everything in it and installed it for its original owner John A. I also sold and designed Antique Brass Rail...Now gone ...also in Newburgh....Do you remember that room?????
I will give you a call..... Love to chat with you........

Hey Nifty 9er..... My numbers are correct....and they are quoted Based on a yearly basis....Did you here that.....Rent is always based on a year....NOT A MONTH......Can you sign a monthly lease????? Get real.......... Nobody signs a monthly lease....It is based on a yearly figure.....A monthly rent is "Tennant At Will".....Or did you never hear that term????? It figures you are from California. Oh by the way.......Rooms back here on the east coast.....GET $20 per hour to play pool...!!!!! We are not in the dark ages.....You can raise your rates all you want....There is a ceiling in this industry.....Thats why rooms have "bit the bullet"..... I played pool in a room that used to get $ 1.00 per hour FOR THE TABLE...UnLIMITED PLAYERS......When he raised his rates he went up $.10.....Thats 10 cents per hour... His rent was also $ 300 per month.. Today rooms back here are getting $ 5.00 per player per hour. All you Californians base your rent on monthly figures...????? when you go to the bank for a loan.......Do they ask you "Well Mr. Billiard Room Owner.....How much revenue do you do a month"????? NO ....Its how much do you do a YEAR...........A Lease is for a YEAR or more....I do not need a calculator...

Continued success....If you are paying your bills today....YOU ARE BLESSED....and you should count your blessings.....Rooms are dying all over the country.....THEY CAN'T PAY THEIR RENT........you can take that to the bank.......

I could care less about whether you use year per ft. or month per ft, it all comes out the same. I guess you are in the dark ages. You point out the $300 a month rent that was 35 years ago, does he pay that now. I think not. You gripe about the 75000 a year to make a point and that is 6250 a month and you think a pool room can't make it on that. I pointed out to you that I pay more for half the sq. footgage. You cannot say no one can make it. You are nuts, that is cheap rent. Then you come up with your buddy's room that at 5 bucks would be steal at 30000 a year which equals 2500 a month according to you. That is dirt cheap and if anyone is charging and getting 20 bucks an hour they are making a fortune. But I do not believe that. Read the thread about pool prices around the nation. I do not recall seeing one that charged that much except overseas and that was only one. I charge 8.90 an hour on weekend and this is California. I was in New York and that was expensive but it was Amsterdam Billiards, in the heart of Manhattan and I thinkk that was 16 an hour. You need a refresher course in math and profit margin. You talk about that 1.00 per hour time and all that baloney, that is the past. why bring it up. I only agree with the fact the pool is on a downswing and it is not what it was a few years ago but it will be back.
Now about your stupid comment about leases. If you read my post you will see I said we sign year leases but we talk in simple terms when people negotiate so we do not need calculators to figure out the monthly rent per sq. foot. When you go rent a house they advertise the monthly rent not the yearly rent. Same with buildings. I guess youare the one in the dark ages. What does that mean, "base rent on monthly figures" What are you blabbing about? I don't base my rent on anything my landlord does, plus I do not go to a bank for a loan and if I did I would give my yearly income just like anybody else. Well actually my profit and loss statement. Do they still advertise carpet per sq yard in the East? Same
idea as sq. ft. per month, stores changed and started quoting per. sq. ft. because it was easier for the consumer to figure out what he was paying for a 10x10 room. The old way you had to multiply then divide.
Oh and by the way a lease can be any amount of time and if it runs out it becomes a month to month tenancy with the terms of the original lease still in effect. You do not need to have a lease to stay in business.

[watchez]

Nfty...sorry, not to be rude. But you owe nineballggs an apology. You are the one in the dark. Alll leases on commercial space ARE ON A YEARLY BASIS. You can play with numbers all you want but YOUR LEASE IS BASED ON PER YEAR AND WHEN SOMEONE TALKS AB0UT PRICE PER SQUARE FOOT, IT IS BASED ON A YEARLY AMOUNT. If you can't understand that, then I would hope you don't find it too offensive for me to say to stay out of this discussion. If you can get a a commercial landlord to give you an month to month lease after your original lease is up, then he and you are both still in the dark. I don't know any landlords that would go for that. Alll want to renogiate the lease and jack up the original price PER SQUARE FOOT PER YEAR. One that allows you to pay month to month, I would like to see that.

[doitforthegame]

Gary is totally correct in his assessment of pool, at least here in the northeast. Of the 25 or 30 rooms that were around when I bought my first one, I think there are only 5 or 6 left. I had great hope that the IPT would pull us out of the wilderness, but you know that story. I lost my room to high rent, high electric bills and a smoking ban that was imposed in my town two years before any other town. It was a tough business. I lasted two years longer than I should have because I did have a poker machine. The only way you could pull off a poolroom today is that you own the building and you have tenants paying the nut. I don't think you have to have full liquor, I think you can get away with beer and wine. You have to have at least 20 tables. The room must be decorated so that it appeals to women. You have to be able to see every square inch of the room from the counter. No private rooms or alcoves that funny things happen in. You have to develop good leagues in house leagues which is very difficult. I know Gary doesn't beleive in it, but you should have some good nightly and afternoon specials for the regulars to take advantage of. Don't forget, you are going to make 80% of your income on 20% of your customers.

[nfty9er]

Nfty...sorry, not to be rude. But you owe nineballggs an apology. You are the one in the dark. Alll leases on commercial space ARE ON A YEARLY BASIS. You can play with numbers all you want but YOUR LEASE IS BASED ON PER YEAR AND WHEN SOMEONE TALKS AB0UT PRICE PER SQUARE FOOT, IT IS BASED ON A YEARLY AMOUNT. If you can't understand that, then I would hope you don't find it too offensive for me to say to stay out of this discussion. If you can get a a commercial landlord to give you an month to month lease after your original lease is up, then he and you are both still in the dark. I don't know any landlords that would go for that. Alll want to renogiate the lease and jack up the original price PER SQUARE FOOT PER YEAR. One that allows you to pay month to month, I would like to see that.

Did you really read my posts? I acknowledge that we sign leases(usually) based on yearly prices, however for the most part in this part of the country when I go to a landlord of a house or a commercial property, they tell me the monthly rent. How can you dispute what I have done for a fact. They let me figure out the yearly cost, the lease it written up for a year, or 5 or whatever with options. Conincidentally I just got an e mail from a realtor who quoted me the price of a business and in that e mail quotes me the price of the monthly rent. Duh. So tell me how you can tell me to stay out of the discusssion. Do you want me to send you the e mail? It was a 5000 sq. ft. building for $6000 a month. Now what do you call that kind of a quote. Per ft. Per yr. No! When you sign a lease for a certain amount of time you want to control the raises so it is usually a cost of living based on the national index, so you have no idea what your talking about. It your rent does not go up necessarily every year. Some landlords make enough and if your a good tenant they skip the cost of living occasiionally, which mine as done several times. Now I signed a lease orignally, with options for 20 years. I have been there the last 7 with a month to month lease(with the same requirements of the lease) No big deal at this point as I know my landlord is not going to mess with getting me out of there because if they do the building will need about a half a million in code renovations. So you watchez not me, needs to stay out of the discussion as you have no clue what goes on in California. If they only do it your way in St. Louis, fine but don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. My whole point with getting in this discussion,, which you do not seem to understand is that the original poster was crying about how you cannot stay in business in pool anymore because of high rents but then he quotes these rents that he says is outrageous that I find cheap in comparison. Then he says they are getting 20 dollars an hour at the same time. Man they are really making money if that is the case. I did a survey and could only find a couple of rooms that charge that much or more but only if 4 people are playing, otherwise I could only find $12 the most for 2 people which is the average playing customers.
Now I really think you owe me an apology. Give your e mail and I will send you that quote.

[watchez]

I was merely commenting towards your thrashing of the other poster & stating they needed to get a calculator. I am happy for you that things are so wonderful in California with your landlords and month to month, .40 cent per sq foot leases. Best of luck. What's the name of your pool room again, I would love to drop by the next time I am in the area?

[Nineballggs]

I really do not need an apology......Bottom Line is ....Some People GET IT....and some just Plain DON'T......Hey Nifty.....Sounds like you are in a quite the location...????? with all the code violations you speak of...Sounds like a real "Upscale Room"......NOT.!!!!.....I will tell you this much.....My record and background speaks for itself.....You can take this to the bank....You better pray to your God....that your building never gets sold.....and never gets RENOVATED.....If it does.....you will be in a new line of work....and then you will understand more clearly what everyone is trying to say to you..........5000 sq ft....at $6000 a month or $72,000 per year JUST FOR RENT.....You are nuts .....and you are not making very much money with those kind of figures.....I don't care who you are........You do not own the "TRUMP National Golf Course" ....you own a POOL Hall.........Get real.........I don't care where you are.....I have put in 18 rooms, and owned 4 myself.............and played this game ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY......This Industry can not pay $15.00 per square foot....to rent pool tables......Better you than me........One person in that equasion is getting rich....and guess who it is.....HINT: It is NOT the Room Owner.....

[nfty9er]

I really do not need an apology......Bottom Line is ....Some People GET IT....and some just Plain DON'T......Hey Nifty.....Sounds like you are in a quite the location...????? with all the code violations you speak of...Sounds like a real "Upscale Room"......NOT.!!!!.....I will tell you this much.....My record and background speaks for itself.....You can take this to the bank....You better pray to your God....that your building never gets sold.....and never gets RENOVATED.....If it does.....you will be in a new line of work....and then you will understand more clearly what everyone is trying to say to you..........5000 sq ft....at $6000 a month or $72,000 per year JUST FOR RENT.....You are nuts .....and you are not making very much money with those kind of figures.....I don't care who you are........You do not own the "TRUMP National Golf Course" ....you own a POOL Hall.........Get real.........I don't care where you are.....I have put in 18 rooms, and owned 4 myself.............and played this game ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY......This Industry can not pay $15.00 per square foot....to rent pool tables......Better you than me........One person in that equasion is getting rich....and guess who it is.....HINT: It is NOT the Room Owner.....

You think I am lying my man. You think I have not owned my room for 26 years, raised 7 kids, own my own house and stayed married for 43 years without making money. You are nuts. I pay more than 6000 a month for 7000 sq ft and I make over $100,000 a year. So I don't give a shit about your experience or what a hot shot you are. I saw your website and it is very impressive but don't come on here advertising your services on one hand and on the other bashing rents and why no one can make it. And I can't charge 20 bucks an hour. My max is 8.90 an hour at night and less during the day. You have no clue. You cannot tell me I cannot make it, I have and will continue to even in this dead time. And I live in a surf town with not a lot of population to draw from like some areas. One benefit I have is I am the only room in the county. There used to be another but their mismangement drove them out of business. And where do you get off talking about code viiolations, where do you get that. I do not have any, I get inspected every few months like everyone else. If you can comprehend which you cannot seem to if the landlord had to renovate by my leaving they would have to upgrade the building to current codes. They do not grandfather in here dumb ass. So do not tell me I am not making money, cause you do not know your ass from a hole in the ground.
Visit my website if you dare. fasteddysbilliards.com

[nineballpaul]

Rent is rent no matter how you look at it. Sq.', monthly, yearly they are all the same. I look at it yearly as part of my fiscal year annual budget. I reflect monthly rent in my by the month portion of my annual budget.

Hold on to your hats, I will pay $162,000 this fiscal year in rent. I have 8100 sq. ft. You can do the math. I've been in business 8 yrs., do a real good business and have 15 pool halls in a ten mile radius of my Private Club Billiard Parlor. We do more business than any poolroom in the region, by a long shot.
I've lost money every year, so I know how tough this business can be.

Although I only have one room, I've learned a lot and made a lot of mistakes.
One lesson I have learned is that rental costs play the major role in the viability of any business, whether it be a pharmacy or a pool hall. The state of our industry is in flux. Certain markets are wide open for a successful pool hall. You must be clean and upscale. The market does not belong to the "A"
player but the recreational amateur player who visits your room several times a week. League play is critical to developing a stable foundation for any pool room. Smoke free areas, food, alcohol, quality equipment, and a friendly atmosphere are all key ingredients of a successful room.

We shouldn't be calling each other idiots and dumb asses. We all have experiences we can share and gleen ideas from each other for the benefit of all.

I'm in it for the long hall. I have a plan. BUY THE BUILDING AND PAY YOURSELF $162,000 A YEAR FOR RENT.

[nfty9er]

Rent is rent no matter how you look at it. Sq.', monthly, yearly they are all the same. I look at it yearly as part of my fiscal year annual budget. I reflect monthly rent in my by the month portion of my annual budget.

Hold on to your hats, I will pay $162,000 this fiscal year in rent. I have 8100 sq. ft. You can do the math. I've been in business 8 yrs., do a real good business and have 15 pool halls in a ten mile radius of my Private Club Billiard Parlor. We do more business than any poolroom in the region, by a long shot.
I've lost money every year, so I know how tough this business can be.

Although I only have one room, I've learned a lot and made a lot of mistakes.
One lesson I have learned is that rental costs play the major role in the viability of any business, whether it be a pharmacy or a pool hall. The state of our industry is in flux. Certain markets are wide open for a successful pool hall. You must be clean and upscale. The market does not belong to the "A"
player but the recreational amateur player who visits your room several times a week. League play is critical to developing a stable foundation for any pool room. Smoke free areas, food, alcohol, quality equipment, and a friendly atmosphere are all key ingredients of a successful room.

We shouldn't be calling each other idiots and dumb asses. We all have experiences we can share and gleen ideas from each other for the benefit of all.

I'm in it for the long hall. I have a plan. BUY THE BUILDING AND PAY YOURSELF $162,000 A YEAR FOR RENT.

I would buy the building but the landlord will not sell. But you are right and I am constantly asking and have since her husband died.
Although I have tournaments, league play is a very tough sell here for some reason. Dart leagues are more popular.
So where is your room located? That rent is extremely high in my eyes but if you can show a profit more power to you. I guess your private membership is what saves you. At least it shows for a fact you can survive with higher than desired rents. Thanks

[Dead Money]

That's a nice looking room Nifty 9er:)

[nineballpaul]

Didn't say I was showing a profit. It's been a tough fight. A lot of hard work but my own room has always been a dream and now its a reality. Wish I had started 30 years ago. If you have a dream you should pursue it always looking for opportunities or information that can make that dream a reality.

Had a meeting today with my advisory committee, and we are actively pursuing the purchase of the building. It's a huge nut, but remember it is my vision and both my wife and myself are committed. Or should that be (should be committed. Have a nice day.

[nfty9er]

Thanks Dead Money

[nfty9er]

So Paul, you don't want us to know where you are at? Good Luck.

[Nineballggs]

Hey Nifty..... I offer you my appology.....I thought we were talking about "Upscale Billiard Rooms"......NOT Pool Halls....... I design and run and have owned UPSCALE Billiard Rooms .....I do not do pool halls......I took your suggestion and checked out your web site....We are clearly not talking about the same type of Business.....If you would like to see what I am talking about....Please go to MY web site....www.leatherpocket.com
Click on the Billiard Consulting page and scroll down. These are NOT Pool Halls.....The carpet in the Manchester, NH room is the same carpet that is in The White Mountain Hotel, in North Conway, NH. ( a 5 star ) hotel.. the carpet was $60 per yard....Not installed........ You see.....there are pool halls....and then there are Billiard Rooms........Good luck and God Bless for the Holiday Season.....Keep making money.....May all your shots be short and straight....................Gary:) :) :) :)

[nineballpaul]

Babineau's Billiards and Sports Club, Raleigh/Cary NC. Babineaus.com.

Couple of NC boys doing well at the Reno Open. Sparky Ferrell, and Keith Bennett are thru to the third round.

[big daddys]

man oh man what did i start !! iwas just trying to get some info on becoming a table supply dealer. in my neck of the woods im the only game in the area. so im always getting people asking for tables . i send them to capitol billiards in sacramento which is about 70 miles south of me. my "pool hall " is fine i have 11 nine footers and 3 coin ops.(for our leagues). i just want too sell tables! i have a full cue repair shop here, i make about 20 customs a year, i set up and recover tables in our area when im asked to , so why not sales too.

[Buddha's Belly]

tap tap tap

[Sev]

This has been a rather spirited discussion and interesting.
Dave I know your hall and have played there several times. Rumor has it you are looking to expand. Best of luck. If my projects take flight I will be contacting you.

I am currently looking to purchase a turn key hall locally. Its 5000 sqft and the rent per month is 2550.00 per month. Its expandable to 7000 sqft. Currently 16 tables. Unfortunately the owners of the hall didnt get more than a 5 yr lease with no gaurrenttes or options. Bad move there.

Its my understanding owner of the property is a tough nut if you get my drift. Current rent is 30,600 @ a 1.96 per sqft if my math is correct. Utilities very from about 550 to 750 a month depending on the season. The joint has a bar, kitchen and simple snacks. I have been offered the equipment and am seeing about a take over. They are grossing between 5500 and 7500 a month depending on the season. There is def room for improvement. They do not do any advertising or hosting of events.

I have second location available to me that is 3600 sqft. Starting rent will be 2000 or a bit under. That would be 24000 a year for arguements sake @ 1.80 per sqft plus utilities. I am figuring Max 30k in renovation to open the door. Prob less. I am a contractor so labor for the renovations is going to be close to nonexistent. For that which I am not qualified to do I am horse trading with my brethren in the contracting industry.

Currently I have access to a pool hall that is for sale about 2 hrs from me. Comes with 15 Gandy Big G's and 2 7 foot tables. The price tag is 25k with every bit of equipment that is in the pool hall. Counter, service station obsevation tables etc.
I will be doing wine and beer and simple foods. The landlords own a restaurant adjacent to the building. There will be a full menu for back door take out.

The building is 45x80. 45x30 of the building is at a higher elevation which will make for the observation and bar area. It will also house 2 to 4 7 foor tables for league play.
I am trying to think outside the box. As I cant go full upscale I am thinking mid scale in an eclectic way. I have local artists that would like to display their wares. I am also thinking pairing wines and cheeses along with other simple foods. Restaurant billiards halls seem to be the trend. I think my idea is sim but sufficiently different that it would attract attention. I also plan on making the hall attractive women.

Times def have changed and as far as I am concerned if you cant attract the ladies you are loosing out on a large portion of the market.
I am also looking at installing 2 Gabriel 3C tables as we have a large hispanic and asian population in the area. 3C is thier prefered game and there is nobody catering to them.

League play is very strong in the area. APA divisions. I think I can capture eight 8 ball teams in each hall. I also believe I can host an entire division in the second hall for APA 9 ball on the 9 footers.
The smaller of the halls is a drive-to destination. It is in a section of town where it would be inconvient for questionable characters to come to unless they have transportation. There is a school close enough that any nafarious activity is an instant fellony.
Currently there are no pool halls in the city. I am dealing with a population of over 30,000.
Poor management and small mindedness kills.

Bottom line. I am looking for some input to go about this the right way and only have to do it once. What I am looking to do is move away from the contracting. I have been doing it a long time and have not gotten injured as of yet and want to keep it that way.

Sorry for being so long winded. :)

[bob_bushka]

I read almost all the posts and I am from the midwest...I agree with the statement pool players do not support a room anymore. That is because I think most of us a have predefined notion of what a pool player is. The APA player with a 3 average, are they a player in your eyes??? I have found the backbone of the billiard business are the bangers who wish they could play half as good as I or you...yep, they are the ones who order buckets of beer, come in early to shoot a few practice games and stay late to finish their beer and play a few more games with their buddies. The good players usually drink their sodas and play their 4 or 5 league games and hit the road. Try posting even a race to 5 tourney ABC division with C getting spotted 2 on the wire by an A and you might get 30 entries in this area...eliminate the A players from entering and run just a BC tourney and the number jumps to about 60.........mmmmmmmmmmmm. The bangers are the ones who keep these rooms running for the few of us who have been blessed with some sort of talent for the game. If you focus toward the mediocre player, get him into good equipment for cheap and let him plug your tables away you will have a good customer base and a profitable one. Treat them special and run promos for their capabilities and you would be suprised on the outcome. By the way my services are for hire. My consulting fees are $2500.00 an hour with all expenses paid.....PM me if you are interested!

[Cat Daddy]

What do you guys think on an alcohol free and even smoke free operations? Do any of you think that it is possible to run a successful operation?

I am really considering this type of facility and have been working on the business concept for going on 16 years.

I've operated one small arcade type pool hall in the past and I am about to open another one with an added value item (pizza franchise) but even this second operation is small by comparison to what I am planning to establish in the near future.

I intend to use this operation as a stepping stone to take it the next level. On one hand I feel saddened that the industry is currently comprised of a majority of smoke head drunk bangers that have no value to add to viability of the game itself. On the other I am thinking that this means opportunity if it is marketed correctly and can lead to a classic billiards operation unlike anything seen.
:cool:

[Dartman]

Smoke free is growing everywhere. Here in Illinois the state goes smoke free on Jan 1. People will need to adapt. I smoke but an hour or 2 without a cig isn't the end of the world. Alcohol free - IMO I doubt that would fly anywhere as a law. While lack of smoking and alcohol may hinder some business I'm sure some others do just fine. I would think new rooms opening would probably be smoke free so as not to have to change down the road.

[Cat Daddy]

I wasn't really thinking it should be a law (like prohibition) but was wondering IF you guys think a real billiards operation could run WITHOUT alcohol??? With the liability the way it is nowadays, and the added costs associated with regulations and the expenses of serving alcohol factored with all of the baggage it brings - could a pool hall survive and be profitable without serving??? I am thinking that it is possible and that it would make the same profits after factoring all related issues with booze. And maybe, just maybe the billiard industry can be reactivated based upon knowing how to play the game compared to being just another drunk banger that wishes he could be a real hustler...

[Dartman]

The pool rooms I frequented in NY back in the 60's served no alkyhol. Times were different then - you went to a pool hall to play pool. Everything wasn't micro-analysed as it is today (just browse the main forum). Most rooms have progressed with the times to add other diversions, a kitchen, a bar, etc as it seems rather difficult to make it just on table time and cokes. IMO a room will do better with alkyhol especially if you want to have a big time operation.

[Cat Daddy]

As much as I like music it really sounds cool to walk into a billiard hall and hear nothing but the sound of the balls hitting each other. In the old days the old timers approached pool like it was some sort of a library. There was no interruptions allowed and everyone whispered let alone not having music busting off in the background. If you ever have the opportunity walk in and unplug the juke and listen to the balls breaking. Now that is pool!

[Cat Daddy]

by the way, I forgot to mention this, if you unplug the juke start running because some one is going to try and kick your ___ for the antic but boy does this sound cool - hearing multiple tables sing!!!

[Dartman]

by the way, I forgot to mention this, if you unplug the juke start running because some one is going to try and kick your ___ for the antic but boy does this sound cool - hearing multiple tables sing!!!

The clicking sound of pool balls without any other distraction is rather unique.

[Cat Daddy]

Okay folks, it is up and running. After 4-months of construction. We did a soft open on Nov 2nd. I spent $210K purchasing the 10 acres with the house, remodeled the commercial side for about $130K, added another $105K in notes for all new equipment and then used about $15K for start up funds, it is costing just under $300 a day and the return without any advertising is hitting in at $400 average per day. And this is mostly from the food, the games just went on line today as we were awaiting stupid stickers (tax permits) from the State. There is no booze and no smoking and it is a real nice upscale billiards hall. Check us out: www.breaktimebilliards.us

[Dead Money]

Nice place. I was just checking out your website link on another thread:)

[milwaukeepeach]

We've been in the biz since 1967. We've had no designers nor any fancy BS. Just good old fashioned hard work and family. (And STRESS) And BTW, Diamonds are the best tables.

[Doodlesbilliard]

I think most pool rooms have to adapt to their locations. Don't get me wrong you get spotty franchise results in geographic locations like NE and Texas. But for the most part they have to adapt to who lives nearby.

It is conceivable that a person could develop design skills based around equipment, location, and build out. However, I feel that as long as you get good value for your purchases that is only half of the journey. You have to adapt the room to the community. If you have grand plans of a large in house league be prepared to drop the idea all together. Sometimes people would just rather pay you $8 an hour.

I think the important key is to remember that you layout the frame work of the business and then you service the customer. The customers needs are where the profit is. If they play poker, then you play poker and so on , and so forth.

And to close on the my point I will say this. If anyone wanted to open a pool room in say Jacksonville Fl. Odds are everything you thought you would need would be quickly replaced with what you actually need. This places a firm point on a principle that should be minded. Start small when you can! Learn the people and community and then make those large purchases. No one is in race with you to open a pool room. Every pool room I have known that did extremely well started on the business model of expansion. The ones that I have seen go down in flames are the mega-plex well thought out ones. LOL.

You will know you have done well with a pool room if there is no way you would ever dream of selling. I would be weary of anyone who "opens"
pool rooms. I say that because it just sounds like it cost you money. Successful folks take a lot of pride in giving out much advice for FREE. A great one pocket player I know says "Wise People Seek Wise Council" I think that will do. Yes that will do.

[Dawgie]

Let's say for an example that someone with the money to open a hall with 25 tables, along with serious dart leagues.

1. What would your budget be?

2. Who would design the room and how?

3. No bar, just snacks, soft drinks, and maybe a few video games.

4. Where would you open this room?

5. You can consult with other room owners for ideas.

Remember you want to open a new room, design it without prof. help.

[Doodlesbilliard]

If you have 25 tables you are looking at nearly 9000 sq ft. You will have to have alcohol to make this work. Also this probably means you will have to offer food in mass portions to keep your city council happy with the alcohol situation. This will create a large build out. For example just a regular visit from our health inspector once resulted in $15,000 in repairs! In other words building to code is important. So original build out may cost around $50,000 for a decent kitchen.

When you start talking this amount of tables the space requirement is going to dictate the remaining elements. I assure you that to maintain that size building you will have to sell alcohol and food. I think these are fundamental. A room that has 10-12 tables might could function in the fashion you first stated.

Your budget is a scalable option. For example Gandy Big G's can be purchased for around 800 a piece. On the other hand Diamond 8 ft Pro AM can be picked up for $3750.00 new in the box. Who's playing on these tables? Will they stay rented? Will you need the tax benefits of owning the more expensive tables? You may decide to lease tables with a buy out if you think you will make money your first year. A lease is 100% tax deductible. If you pay 37% in taxes a year that is a great idea to lease/w a buy out. So in closing you can spend $93,000 just for tables or make your first lease payment ($2300) there is a giant difference in start up cash.

I would factor all of the purchases and bring it in with he following details.

Upscale 25 tables (Diamonds) New Equipment, Build Out, Big Screens, Kitchen, Signage, Permits, Fixtures, Utilities,Tiled Bathrooms, Inventories and Etc etc. $350,000 Plus Rent

Mid Grade 25 Tables (Brunswick Used ) Carpet everywhere. Used kitchen equipment, permits, fixtures, Utilities, Vinyl Floor Bathroom, Inventories, couple TVS, etc etc. $175,000 Plus rent

Bargain Basement 25 tables Used Gandy's, Equipment you fix, best Chili Dog in Town format, one tv, Unisex bathroom, and a Business license.
$70,000 Plus Rent.

The thing to realize is the size of the room don't change with none of these formats. For the most part that is. As far as location whatever you do don't miss match. Do not build Upscale room in Ghetto town and don't build bargain basement on park avenue. Neither one of these neighborhoods will support the room because they are mismatched. Also remember college kids are broke. I can not count the number of college town pool rooms I have seen grand opening and grand closing. Those kids just don't do "by the hour pool". Coin tables however work perfectly.

I think in your theory room I would tone it back to around 15 tables do it middle of the road in spot with room for expansion. Kinda makes the escape hatch a little bit bigger but if things go great you can always bust through wall and call Diamond lol. Hope this helps

[cueandcushion]

I was just re-reading this thread. Quite a spirited discussion we had. :)