Shaft weight

[classiccues]

So how important is it? I know there has been issues with "light" shafts, but what do you think is the right weight? I ask because I see shafts that are for big pin joints, 3/8-11 and so forth they rarely tip the scales at 3.7, in fact I find a lot don't make 3.5. This is true with SW, a cue in the FS section by James White. Both cuemakers are known for their quality shafts. I know traditional shafts are almost always at 4.0 or better. But then have brass insert and in many cases steel trim rings. So are people getting "shafted" in thinking 4 oz is the right number? Remove the insert and steel trim rings, what do you have? 3.7-3.9. So what is more important, weight or nice grain and increased growth rings?

JV

[Varney Cues]

Not to play forum police but this is the review section for cuemakers. You'll probably get more of a reponse if you move this question to "ask the cuemaker" section.:)

[cubswin]

actually KV I think part of this forum was cue discussion, at least the intent that classiccues among others has been asking for forever.

from the description of the forum "Reviews from owners and questions from shoppers."

not to play forum police.....:)

[cubswin]

personally I don't care what the shaft weighs as long as it hits good.

I've had shafts that were 4.5 oz and hit like crap, while a lighter shaft on the same cue hit great.

[Worminator]

Not to play forum police but this is the review section for cuemakers. You'll probably get more of a reponse if you move this question to "ask the cuemaker" section.:)

I believe the title says "Cue Reviews"...not cuemaker reviews...and since the shaft is part of the cue, I believe the question is appropriate for this section. :)

I have actually given this subject quite a bit of thought and experimentation. I have really started to pay attention to the weight of a shaft and how it relates to the playability. I have not really found a correlation between how heavy a shaft is to how it plays. I have found many 3.4oz-3.7oz shafts that play just as well, if not better, than some 4.0+oz shafts. The opposite is also true.

So...I'm not convinced that a heavy shaft necessarily = quality shaft wood. I also believe there is a better chance than a heavier shaft will play better, but not 100% of the time. I think there should be more consideration to how the weight of the shaft balances out the cue.

Just my $.02...

[cutter]

Well here's another aspect to consider. Taper and joint diameter.
I have a few different tapers that I have used, and each one ends up with a different weight. A .828 joint shaft will weigh less than a .850 joint shaft, and a long taper shaft will usually weigh less than a short taper shaft. Assuming that you start with similar blanks. So to put a "magic oz number" on it IMHO is useless. Now comparing matching shafts will give you a feel for the density of the wood. IMO that's were the rubber mets the road. As a side note, I have seen low ring count shafts that were denser than high ring count shafts, but that could be a whole new thread.

[classiccues]

Not to play forum police but this is the review section for cuemakers. You'll probably get more of a reponse if you move this question to "ask the cuemaker" section.:)

If I wanted a cuemakers opinion, that is where I would have posted it. But feel free to lend any "expertise" you might feel you can contribute.

One other note, this forum is going to become an a$$kissing fest. Unless of course pharoah gets to a review. The object for another forum was to get the static out of the for sale section.

JV

[classiccues]

Most joint diameters I have see are in the .840 +/- diameter. Like I mentioned, you hear the 4.0 oz number thrown around. So for someone shopping for a cue, what would you recommend? I personally have experienced what Jamie has mentioned. Some lighter shafts play really good, some heavier shafts, not so. Not that I like throwing the "P" word around but their shaft tend to be very light.
Sometimes I think the 4.0 oz indicator might be a result of some smoke and mirrors with inserts and trim rings.
As Steve has mentioned, adjusting the taper, joint diameter will also produce an artificially heavy shaft. So what's the real deal?

JV

[cubswin]

Most joint diameters I have see are in the .840 +/- diameter. Like I mentioned, you hear the 4.0 oz number thrown around. So for someone shopping for a cue, what would you recommend? I personally have experienced what Jamie has mentioned. Some lighter shafts play really good, some heavier shafts, not so. Not that I like throwing the "P" word around but their shaft tend to be very light.
Sometimes I think the 4.0 oz indicator might be a result of some smoke and mirrors with inserts and trim rings.
As Steve has mentioned, adjusting the taper, joint diameter will also produce an artificially heavy shaft. So what's the real deal?

JV

what gets me is shafts with brass inserts, and double silver rings that people say are 4+oz shafts. I'm sure they are.

I kinda wonder if the heavier shafts aren't favored by people because they like a weight forward cue, and think that can only happen with a heavier shaft.

[rhncue]

Well here's another aspect to consider. Taper and joint diameter.
I have a few different tapers that I have used, and each one ends up with a different weight. A .828 joint shaft will weigh less than a .850 joint shaft, and a long taper shaft will usually weigh less than a short taper shaft. Assuming that you start with similar blanks. So to put a "magic oz number" on it IMHO is useless. Now comparing matching shafts will give you a feel for the density of the wood. IMO that's were the rubber mets the road. As a side note, I have seen low ring count shafts that were denser than high ring count shafts, but that could be a whole new thread.

I agree with everything you state exactly and I've been trying to convey that message for years but to no avail. People who often have no clue on what is actually a good playing cue or component hear something on the Internet or in a pool room and take it as gospel. Everyone wants the best of everything so if they here of something better they automatically want it. On another thread someone is asking about who could build them a shaft out of laminated old growth maple. They have heard that old growth is better and that laminated is better so automatically they want the combination. The thing is that most things that cue makers say should be taken with a large grain of salt. I have found that many are much better salesman than they are cue builders. There's an old saying, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bullsh*t". There is no way of telling old growth Maple from other Maple once the tree has been cut down. I once responded to this same question on another forum and brought up your same answers and many people scoffed at the notion. Do you really think a Taiwan Ramin wood shaft with a large brass half/joint weighing 5.5 oz or a Schmelke shaft weighing 5 oz are better shafts than a Southwest weighing 3.6 oz? Shaft taper, insert or lack of, deco-rings and some maples will weigh slightly more or less than others determine the shafts final weight. I turn my shafts down incrementally to 13.5 and then they hang waiting to be completed to be made into a shaft. If someone wants a heavier shaft or two shafts then at this stage is where I weigh them as they are all identical other than weight but the final weight of the shaft will probably be know more than 3.8 03 3.9 even with the heavier shaft because of my taper and pin size.

Dick

[JoeyInCali]

Can of worms.
You can manipulate shafts' weight but not their tonal characteristics.
Since I keep my collar at more than .840 and have a slight conical taper, getting to 3.7 oz with no insert isn't a huge problem.

[jazznpool]

Hey Jamie, Well said. We are of a similar mind on this issue. It is very important IMO that the cue have a pair of shafts that contributes to the overall balance and weight the maker was trying to achieve. I'll add:

1. I don't like it when a shaft pair are more than .1 of an ounce apart. In fact, I prefer that they be within .05oz. or less.

2. No more than a few sugar streaks, grain wiggle, or other blem should be in the back 3rd of the shaft if at all. I expect higher dollar custom cues to have very clear shafts that are predominantly straight-grained.

3. The best potential shafts will always have relatively high tap tone. If you get a cue with 2 shafts you're quite fortunate if one of them is not thuddy sounding. The vast majority of cuemakers cannot afford to use tone as a grading factor or they simply don't believe it matters.

4. The number of growth rings on a shaft is a selling point only. There is no direct relationship between # of growth rings and superior performance. High rpi shafts occur less frequently, just as very low rpi shafts do. The average rpi of shaft maple is roughly 11-14. Although I do prefer at least 10 rpi I would much rather have a 8rpi shaft with superior tone to a 30rpi shaft that had thuddy tap tone on my playing cue. That is assuming all else is equal.

5. Vacuum kiln dried shaftwood tends to be slightly lighter per 100 pieces than non-vacuum kiln dried maple.

6. The ultimate piece of shaft maple can be ruined with a taper that is either too flexible or too stiff. The shaft taper is the art of the individual cuemaker.

Martin


I believe the title says "Cue Reviews"...not cuemaker reviews...and since the shaft is part of the cue, I believe the question is appropriate for this section. :)

I have actually given this subject quite a bit of thought and experimentation. I have really started to pay attention to the weight of a shaft and how it relates to the playability. I have not really found a correlation between how heavy a shaft is to how it plays. I have found many 3.4oz-3.7oz shafts that play just as well, if not better, than some 4.0+oz shafts. The opposite is also true.

So...I'm not convinced that a heavy shaft necessarily = quality shaft wood. I also believe there is a better chance than a heavier shaft will play better, but not 100% of the time. I think there should be more consideration to how the weight of the shaft balances out the cue.

Just my $.02...

[masonh]

good topic.cutter is right it is largely dependant on taper and size.my shafts are usually smaller than most at the joint .825-.835",but i still like to keep them over 3.5oz.most of mine actually weigh right at 4oz or a hair over,in fact i have trouble finding light shafts for front heavy cues.i bought all my shaftwood from Eric and Wes and it is great.it is their Diamond grade,very dense and straight grained.my taper is fairly stiff,but a little less stiff than SW original taper.i made a j/b cue the other day and used a shaft that didn't cut it as a playing shaft.i left the taper very stiff and it was .855" at the joint and 13.25mm at the tip,it weighed 4.6oz.i made a sneaky for Snowmon and the butt was slightly heavier than i wanted i looked and looked for a light shaft,but couldn't find one.it came out 4.1oz.

i don't think a shaft has to weigh a certain amount to be good,but it is a starting point.as you said yourself lots of SW shafts are 3.5oz or under and have a stiff taper,but their joint diameter is skinny.i have had 10-12 SW cues and only one had 4oz shafts,thanks Ribdoner.i think weight is a decent indicator of density.i also like to see what the maple does when you cut it.that is also an indicator of density.i like the wood to stay smooth with no loose fibers or pits.

i don't do any SS cues but i would think that the brass inserts weigh .3-.4oz which would mean a 3.5oz shaft with brass insert is light.as far as 3oz shafts go,i wouldn't want one.i am sure there are some good ones out there,but i wouldn't want to take a chance.for a standard taper and joint diamtere 3oz is probably going to be too light to be quality shaftwood for the most part.for me i like them 3.5-4.5oz with a 13mm tip and .830"ish joint.

i like to look for weight,straightness,density,ring count and tone in no particular order,but it seems ring count and weight get priority.maybe b/c they are the easiest to check.

on another note i won't use vacuum-kiln dried shaftwood.i like the air dried or kiln dried wood only.i do not want my wood cooked at 500 degrees,and i don't buy into the stress relieved theory.most of my shafts are dark with some sugar and some people might not like it,but i don't care much about getting really white wood.most of the really white stuff is vacuum-kiln dried.

[manwon]

So how important is it? I know there has been issues with "light" shafts, but what do you think is the right weight? I ask because I see shafts that are for big pin joints, 3/8-11 and so forth they rarely tip the scales at 3.7, in fact I find a lot don't make 3.5. This is true with SW, a cue in the FS section by James White. Both cuemakers are known for their quality shafts. I know traditional shafts are almost always at 4.0 or better. But then have brass insert and in many cases steel trim rings. So are people getting "shafted" in thinking 4 oz is the right number? Remove the insert and steel trim rings, what do you have? 3.7-3.9. So what is more important, weight or nice grain and increased growth rings?

JV

JV, I think a few gram's less than 4 oz even is not a major detractor from the over all quality of a shaft, but .5 oz or 1/2 oz may have effect. First of all when most cue makers weigh a shaft or make a statement about the weight they prefer, they are speaking of a finish turned blank no-insert / no-tip/ferrule. This was what Gus Szamboti was talking about when he was selecting shaft wood for cues. Which, keeping this in mind will make a shaft slightly heaver, when finish, insert, and tip/ferrule are added. It seems many of the old classic cue makers preferred shaft wood that was heaver, and I think their main concern was weight=density or strength.

I also think that in most cases I have seen, weight and increased growth rings go hand in hand. I have yet to see a shaft with a large number of growth rings that was light. Grain, I am uncertain if it really matters much at all, along with Sugar marks in the wood other than the fact that it is distracting to some people depending upon it's location.

The reason I say this is because I have around 200 to 300 early Brunswick one piece cues that I am using for conversions. A large number of these cues are still straight after 70 to 100 or more years. I often use the shaft when I convert the cue for my special customers, who are not bothered by grain and concerned only with hit. These shafts are in many cases very grainy, some have Birdseye and curly effect, and few have even appeared to be almost quilted. However, for the shafts from this source I have used to date, the players that have received them would not trade them for anything because of how they hit. Another factor that comes into play with these shafts is the high growth ring count. Many of these shafts have a ring count from 30 to as high 65 per square inch. One thing I can say completely is that the more ring count = the more density = heaver shaft wood.

So I suppose in my opinion, light shafts ( less than 3.5), or bleached white shafts, = poor wood!!

[manwon]

If I wanted a cuemakers opinion, that is where I would have posted it. But feel free to lend any "expertise" you might feel you can contribute.

One other note, this forum is going to become an a$$kissing fest. Unless of course pharoah gets to a review. The object for another forum was to get the static out of the for sale section.

JV

I also agree, between giving things away for free FOR REPUTATION POINTS:confused: , to asking the MODs for a pat on the head this crap is getting out of hand. Maybe we should start a thread and hand out the BIGEST BROWN NOSE OF THE YEAR AWARD!!:eek: ;) I must say I have a Nominee, and I am certain no one can guess who it is!!!!!!!!!:D

[masonh]

i saw the giveaways yesterday for free rep and though it seemed a little out of line to me as well.what is the point of the rep points if they can be bought.i guees other things could be bought as well.;)

[JesPiddlin]

I agree that taper and size probably have a lot to do with it, but there is one thing I think makes the biggest difference on the performance and that's weight distribution preference. If a guy plays best with a cue that's weighted more forward, he's probably going to appreciate the heavier shaft. If he plays best with a cue that's weighted more in the rear, he's probably going to look for a cue that has less weight up front. So, without knowing the balance preferences of the players who say they prefer lighter or heavier weighted shafts, it's hard to know whether the cue really plays better with lighter or heavier shafts. It could be that all who commented really like their cues weighted more in the back.

If you're going to ask the question (which is a very good question), you might consider following up with more questions, such as...

1. where folks prefer the weight in a cue,
2. what kind of taper they prefer,
3. whether they like a lighter or heavier weighted shaft.

There might even be another question or two you could grab from the info shared in this thread.

[masonh]

you can make the cue front or rear weighted with ot with out a light or heavy shaft.the shaft does affect the balance,but ther balance is not dependant on the shaft weight.

[masonh]

"4. The number of growth rings on a shaft is a selling point only. There is no direct relationship between # of growth rings and superior performance. High rpi shafts occur less frequently, just as very low rpi shafts do. The average rpi of shaft maple is roughly 11-14. Although I do prefer at least 10 rpi I would much rather have a 8rpi shaft with superior tone to a 30rpi shaft that had thuddy tap tone on my playing cue. That is assuming all else is equal."

i have to disagree that high growth ring count is not any more rare than low growth ring count,and that there is no correlation to quality.i have a box full of 8rpi and unders that i will gladly trade you 2 shafts to 1 for your 30+ rpi shafts.i also have access to hundreds of thes 8rpi and unders and would love to trade for 30+rpi.i am not saying that it is the only or best way to determine quality,but i will take my chances.i fell if you have 100 shafts with 30rpi you will find more usuable or good shafts than if you had 100 shafts with 8rpi.i see the point you are trying to make and maybe you are right,but from my experience i will take the 30rpi over the 8rpi all day long.

[classiccues]

Tapers are a funny animal. Some guys still use a tent peg taper, with little or no straight section, some do the 10-13" pro taper.

What about cutting them, whats the best RPM to spin them at while cutting. If it's to fast do they tend to whip and possibly warp? Any correlation between cutting speeds and warpage?

JV

[rhncue]

good topic.cutter is right it is largely dependant on taper and size.my shafts are usually smaller than most at the joint .825-.835",but i still like to keep them over 3.5oz.most of mine actually weigh right at 4oz or a hair over,in fact i have trouble finding light shafts for front heavy cues.i bought all my shaftwood from Eric and Wes and it is great.it is their Diamond grade,very dense and straight grained.my taper is fairly stiff,but a little less stiff than SW original taper.i made a j/b cue the other day and used a shaft that didn't cut it as a playing shaft.i left the taper very stiff and it was .855" at the joint and 13.25mm at the tip,it weighed 4.6oz.i made a sneaky for Snowmon and the butt was slightly heavier than i wanted i looked and looked for a light shaft,but couldn't find one.it came out 4.1oz.

i don't think a shaft has to weigh a certain amount to be good,but it is a starting point.as you said yourself lots of SW shafts are 3.5oz or under and have a stiff taper,but their joint diameter is skinny.i have had 10-12 SW cues and only one had 4oz shafts,thanks Ribdoner.i think weight is a decent indicator of density.i also like to see what the maple does when you cut it.that is also an indicator of density.i like the wood to stay smooth with no loose fibers or pits.

i don't do any SS cues but i would think that the brass inserts weigh .3-.4oz which would mean a 3.5oz shaft with brass insert is light.as far as 3oz shafts go,i wouldn't want one.i am sure there are some good ones out there,but i wouldn't want to take a chance.for a standard taper and joint diamtere 3oz is probably going to be too light to be quality shaftwood for the most part.for me i like them 3.5-4.5oz with a 13mm tip and .830"ish joint.

i like to look for weight,straightness,density,ring count and tone in no particular order,but it seems ring count and weight get priority.maybe b/c they are the easiest to check.




"on another note i won't use vacuum-kiln dried shaftwood.i like the air dried or kiln dried wood only.i do not want my wood cooked at 500 degrees,and i don't buy into the stress relieved theory.most of my shafts are dark with some sugar and some people might not like it,but i don't care much about getting really white wood.most of the really white stuff is vacuum-kiln dried."

Mase, I believe this is one of the instances I was referring to when I said that someone reads something wrong and then passes it on as truth. I've heard this stated a few times on these forums here lately and I'm wondering where it is that this wrong conclusion originated from. Where have you read that vacuum dried wood is "cooked" to 500 deg? Vacuum dried wood is dried through vacuum sucking out the moisture and when the atmospheric pressure is dropped so low for this to occur, the moisture in the wood actually freezes. Heat is added just to keep the temperature at a level to keep this moisture from freezing from occurring. At low atmospheric pressure the moisture in the wood turns to a gas state and boils off at less than 50 deg. Heat kiln woods are the ones that actually "cook" the wood. That is the reason that the wood is darker when leaving a heat kiln than before entering.

Dick

[cutter]

Another urban myth busted, hey we should get the guys on the Discovery Channel to do a show on pool cue myths. Maybe one show won't be enough.

[manwon]

Tapers are a funny animal. Some guys still use a tent peg taper, with little or no straight section, some do the 10-13" pro taper.

What about cutting them, whats the best RPM to spin them at while cutting. If it's to fast do they tend to whip and possibly warp? Any correlation between cutting speeds and warpage?



JV

What about cutting them, whats the best RPM to spin them at while cutting. If it's to fast do they tend to whip and possibly warp? Any correlation between cutting speeds and warpage?

This will depend upon the equipment you have to accomplish the task. However, in my opinion slow is best, and the slower you can cut the better. To determine the best speedTo much speed = chatter marks from the wood whiping to and frow, however over tightening a shaft blank for turning between centers can also cause this to occur. To determine the best tension and cutting speed for any equipment can be determined in the following manner. Install shaft dowel apply tension, place a dial indicator on the center of dowel slowly increase the rotation speed until within 1 to 3 thousands runout. This along with a sharp cutting tool will allow you to fine tune your settings for any machine. I am uncertain if cutting speeds will cause warpage, however, a combination of many factor's will.

1. Poor Quality Wood
2. Improperly Seasoned or Stored wood (In my opinion Non-kiln dried is best)
3. Slowly turned / Small cuts during turning (For me Max 25 thousand per turning 3 to 6 months between turning depending upon Humdity, tempeture/ time of year.)

[icem3n]

So how important is it? I know there has been issues with "light" shafts, but what do you think is the right weight? I ask because I see shafts that are for big pin joints, 3/8-11 and so forth they rarely tip the scales at 3.7, in fact I find a lot don't make 3.5. This is true with SW, a cue in the FS section by James White. Both cuemakers are known for their quality shafts. I know traditional shafts are almost always at 4.0 or better. But then have brass insert and in many cases steel trim rings. So are people getting "shafted" in thinking 4 oz is the right number? Remove the insert and steel trim rings, what do you have? 3.7-3.9. So what is more important, weight or nice grain and increased growth rings?

JV

If SVB is playing with a loose grip and open brigde and you give him a maple nose southwest with a 3.3oz shaft, I bet he sure will miss the 1st long half ball shot.

Heavy front is important for shot making. It will not cause the front end to float unless the guy is using a closed bridge.

It doesn't matter whether it utilised a metal insert or SS joint or dense forearm to make the front end heavy. You can have a dense solid ebony nose with plastic joint, brass radial pin and a 3.3 oz shaft and it will still play perfect. Because the nose help to bring the front end down.

A SW with light nose and 4++oz shaft will play better. Here, nothing much to help you play around to make the front end heavy except the maple wood.

It is the design and consideration of materials put into construction that is important.

[jazznpool]

Mason, I realize you're a guy who loves high ring counts no matter what. I like them to a point but I realize that a high ring count shaft can also be a dud. My point is that a 25rpi shaft will not necessarily play noticeably better than an 12 ring count shaft. I talk to other cuemakers and visit the guys who produce and sell maple for pool cues. Like you, I also have playing and working experience turning, by now, several hundred dowels and shafts. My point is that ring count is highly overvalued as a shaft grading factor. High rpi shafts, if all else is good, command a premium dollar because they are relatively more rare.

BTW, the vacuum kiln I've seen in operation doesn't go 25% of the temperature you suggest for maple. I have shaft maple that is not vacuum dried and it is 95% as white as vacuum kiln dried because of the methods and skill of the producer. If you talk to the men in the field, the shaft wood maple log buyer, he will tell you he seeks maple without internal cross-graining or stress because he will get more #1 shaft blanks from the log. Log buyers are able to examine the log and cut a thin slice off the end to experiment with prior to bidding on a log. The experienced buyer will then know to what degree a log has internal stress, redline (sugar), grease, or mineral.

What do you think of curl figure in a shaft? If curl shows is it ignored, rejected, or maybe prized? Interesting to see all the different perspectives. Great topic.

Martin

[masonh]

i am not sure exactly where and when i read that Dick,it might have been here since you said you saw it before too,but since you brought it up i started researching it and it appears that both methods use basically the same amount of heat,and you are right that the vacuum kilns never get to 500 degrees.

" the moisture in the wood actually freezes. Heat is added just to keep the temperature at a level to keep this moisture from freezing from occurring."

i can't understand this part,how do they freeze it but add heat to keep it from freezing.once it has frozen it has been frozen it would seem.

i also read in several places that many experts believe that vacuum kiln drying attacks the molecular structure of the wood,possibly damaging its integrity and also making it lighter in weight and less dense.also checking and uneven drying seems to be another problem associated with vacuum drying.the only people i saw actually saying vacuum drying is better than conventional kiln were the people trying to sell the vacuum dryers.

"I still have to see a vacuum dryer that will dry better quality than a *properly* run dry kiln - DH or steam. So, is the time of drying the only advantage? If so, then the capital cost cannot be too high... most vacuum kilns are quite expensive. When used for very thick pieces, like 12/4 red oak, the vacuum dryer did indeed dry within 7 days, but the quality was poor on about 50% of the pieces. (Having been somewhat negative, I do have to say that VacuTherm has a good unit and good quality. I have not seen any in use, except one.) "

"vacuum drying is basically high-temperature drying done at low temperatures"

since the boiling point of water is lower in a vacuum,the water is aable to be vaporized out of the wood at a lower temperature.

to me it is the same effect as cooking the water out at high temperature,but the high temperature is not used.same effect different method.i like the kiln drying method better.

[masonh]

i have no problem with curl as long as it is quality wood.i read about the vacuum drying method and saw that i was wrong on the temp,but from what i read i still won't be using any vacuum dried wood.i am not really a high ring count guy,but like i said i will trade you all day long 8's for 30's at 2:1.i thought you had said somewhere that they are no more rare than the low ring count shafts.i also think that high ring count is overvalued but there is a correlation,imo.

[JoeyInCali]

Vacuum kiln advantages according to one of my suppliers
.
The advantages are:

1- The wood is stress free
2- It keeps the whitness of the hard maple
3- It provide a much more stable wood.

Thank you,
Joey~Will not argue it~

[masonh]

from what i read it is just the opposite.the wood from vacuum kiln is less stable and needs to be stress relived afterwards.it also makes for lighter,less dense wood,but it is whiter in color.i am not trying to argue it either,but i am curious about it and wonder how there can be so many conflicting opinions.the only people i saw saying that vacuum kiln is advantageous is the suppliers who use them and the people that make the vacuum kilns.

who knows i guess.Eric what do you think about the pros and cons?if anyone knows it will be him.

[rhncue]

from what i read it is just the opposite.the wood from vacuum kiln is less stable and needs to be stress relived afterwards.it also makes for lighter,less dense wood,but it is whiter in color.i am not trying to argue it either,but i am curious about it and wonder how there can be so many conflicting opinions.the only people i saw saying that vacuum kiln is advantageous is the suppliers who use them and the people that make the vacuum kilns.

who knows i guess.Eric what do you think about the pros and cons?if anyone knows it will be him.

I have read a number of hours worth of comments and reviews on Vacuum kilns which is very easy to do on the Internet using Google. What I have found is that the people who seem to like the Vacuum kilns are the manufacturers and those who own them and the ones who seem to have all of the complaints and down side information are the ones who haven't used them or can't afford them. I read the one report that you commented on about half of the 12/4 red oak was ruined using a vacuum kiln and the next comment said that that wasn't true at all and would anyone use a Vacuum kiln if they were going to ruin half their wood? Like any machine, it can definitely ruin a product if the operator is not knowledgeable in it's proper use. If an operator runs any type of kiln using the wrong schedules for time and temperature the wood will be ruined. Why do you think that almost all of the people who specialize in supplying shaft blanks use a vacuum kiln? Do you really believe that they want to put out a bad product? Pechauer cues cut and dry their own Maple. He has a vacuum kiln and 5 or 6 years ago it was mentioned that vacuum kilns made wood whiter and he got on line and said that that wasn't true but that Maple starts out white and heat kilns char the wood causing the darker look where as the vacuum kiln merely keeps it at it's original color.

I just know that I buy and turn between 200 to 300 blanks a year. They are white, no sugar or mineral marks, very straight grain and they have between 8 and 32 lines to an inch with an average of around 15. Out of these 2 to 300 I get around a 95 to 97% yield. It is always a surprise when one moves on me. I have been buying and turning shaft blanks for over 20 years and have bought from numerous places and where I'm getting them now they are of higher quality than any that I have found in this country. You can drive around this country all you want looking for good shaft wood but if you want quality you have to go north.

Dick

[masonh]

97%,nice.i have one question for you?can i have your source?;) i hardly make any cues at all and only put one shaft with them,you will never know i was there.:D

[rhncue]

97%,nice.i have one question for you?can i have your source?;) i hardly make any cues at all and only put one shaft with them,you will never know i was there.:D

I'll tell you this, You've got to go north of the border. I used Pieces of 8 until they burned down. I used Quality cuts until they changed hands and I've used some of Dominiak's. 15 or more years ago I once bought some from Diekman and learned a lesson of never again buying from a cue builder. I've purchased sample orders of 50 or so blanks from a number of places. The Pieces of 8 were probably the highest quality and the Quality Cuts a close second but where I'm getting them from now would give the best of them the 7 ball. They are by far the best I've ever purchased. They only sell wood in the winter months with minimum orders of 100 pieces.

Dick

[MasterClass]

This is a good topic. Very informative as well.

I remembered that there is a cuemaker who use to pick shaft wood by bouncing them on the floor and listening to the pinging sound it produce.

Does anyone do that? Or is there any truth in that or did i imagine the whole thing! Then i better go get my head checked!

[JoeyInCali]

This is a good topic. Very informative as well.

I remembered that there is a cuemaker who use to pick shaft wood by bouncing them on the floor and listening to the pinging sound it produce.

Does anyone do that? Or is there any truth in that or did i imagine the whole thing! Then i better go get my head checked!
Harvey Martin did.
First one I saw do it is Kerry Zeiler.
Kerry has insanely sharp ears when bouncing shafts.
He is the only maker I know who grades and matches his shafts by tone .
He does the same thing for his handles.

[rhncue]

Harvey Martin did.
First one I saw do it is Kerry Zeiler.
Kerry has insanely sharp ears when bouncing shafts.
He is the only maker I know who grades and matches his shafts by tone .
He does the same thing for his handles.

Pete Glenn, the patriarch of the Glenn family was born and raised across the river from Cincinnati in Newport Ky. Every year he would pass through here on his trips floating around the country. I was doing the cue repair at the last Camel tour stop for the Pro tour back in, I believe, 98. Anyway, Denny Glenn was there for the tournament and banquet and such and we were talking and got on the subject of George Balabushka. The Glenn family has the single largest Balabushka and Szamboti collection in the world. Denny is very authoritative on George. He told me that he used to go to George's shop, in Brooklyn I believe. Anyway, he told me that George had a small, flat metal plate with four short legs to hold it off of the work bench. Denny said that every time George got a new bunch of shaft wood in he would bounce each piece of of the plate a few times, keeping some and sending the rest down to Palmer. Denny said he didn't know if he was listening to the sound or if he was feeling the vibrations.

Dick

[qfancier]

So how important is it? I know there has been issues with "light" shafts, but what do you think is the right weight? I ask because I see shafts that are for big pin joints, 3/8-11 and so forth they rarely tip the scales at 3.7, in fact I find a lot don't make 3.5. This is true with SW, a cue in the FS section by James White. Both cuemakers are known for their quality shafts. I know traditional shafts are almost always at 4.0 or better. But then have brass insert and in many cases steel trim rings. So are people getting "shafted" in thinking 4 oz is the right number? Remove the insert and steel trim rings, what do you have? 3.7-3.9. So what is more important, weight or nice grain and increased growth rings?

JV
The best feeling shafts I have are older, yellowing, "ping-y" ones in the 3.5 - 4.0 range. I don't get too hung up on 4+ oz. as a criteria.

[Koop]

Personally I like them 4+ mainly because I like a front heavy cue. I've played with some shafts that were slightly under 4 and fine but once it starts getting below 3.7 I can no longer play my best with it.

Koop - uses a Universal Smart Shaft that weighs 4.55oz

[Cuemaster98]

I think everyone is forgoting about straight grain of the shaft...all the best playing shafts that I've encountered have very straight grain....it doesn't matter is the ring count is 4 or 20 plus.. I have some shaft that are only 8-10 with perfect straight grain and they are the best playing shafts ever. Check SW and Schon and you can tell the quality of their grain (both vertical and horizontal) as I'm told. I guess it has to do with how the logs are cut as well but it general...straight grain is the number one criteria for me!

Regards,
Duc.

[JesPiddlin]

I think everyone is forgoting about straight grain of the shaft...all the best playing shafts that I've encountered have very straight grain....it doesn't matter is the ring count is 4 or 20 plus.. I have some shaft that are only 8-10 with perfect straight grain and they are the best playing shafts ever. Check SW and Schon and you can tell the quality of their grain (both vertical and horizontal) as I'm told. I guess it has to do with how the logs are cut as well but it general...straight grain is the number one criteria for me!

Regards,
Duc.

But, the thread is about shaft WEIGHT, not looks. Straight grain is extremely important in helping you line up a great shot, but last time I noticed, it had nothing to do with the weight.

[classiccues]

But, the thread is about shaft WEIGHT, not looks. Straight grain is extremely important in helping you line up a great shot, but last time I noticed, it had nothing to do with the weight.

I have no problem with this getting into shaft quality, and other shaft issues. In fact I think I bought it up...

JV

[JoeyInCali]

I have no problem with this getting into shaft quality, and other shaft issues. In fact I think I bought it up...

JV
That's another whole can of worms.:D

[classiccues]

That's another whole can of worms.:D

Are you saying you have wormy shafts? :D

JV

[JoeyInCali]

Are you saying you have wormy shafts? :D

JV
:D
I have two lots really. The white medium count rpi's.
I have the yellowish high rpi's too.

Don't ask about cutting shafts. We had two makers go at it here once. :D
I've been to three makers' shops at least. And all three had differing opinions.
:)

[classiccues]

:D
I have two lots really. The white medium count rpi's.
I have the yellowish high rpi's too.

Don't ask about cutting shafts. We had two makers go at it here once. :D
I've been to three makers' shops at least. And all three had differing opinions.
:)

Joey,
Well, I know there will be very few cuemakers that agree on any one thing. As long as people don't get defensive a constructive and informative thread will emerge. You know that there are is more than one way to skin a cat, what works well for you, might not for me and all those cliche's.
I have a little book here which is a compilation of all the Steve Mayhew cuemaker articles done for All About Pool and you can see that they all have their own opinions from weight, to pin, to joint, etc..

JV

[JoeyInCali]

Joey,
Well, I know there will be very few cuemakers that agree on any one thing. As long as people don't get defensive a constructive and informative thread will emerge. You know that there are is more than one way to skin a cat, what works well for you, might not for me and all those cliche's.
I have a little book here which is a compilation of all the Steve Mayhew cuemaker articles done for All About Pool and you can see that they all have their own opinions from weight, to pin, to joint, etc..

JV
Yup.
Judd Fuller told me once, put 50 cuemakers in one room, you'll have 50 people arguing. :D
But, the late great bike maker Indian Larry said it best, " In this business, the more you know, the less you really know ". :)

[jazznpool]

I agree with you on the importance of straightness of grain Duc, but I can relax this preference slightly if there is minimal movement on the joint end of the shaft. I also realize that shafts can have some grain movement, be ugly with sugar streaks, and still (potentially) make a gem of a playing shaft if they are outstanding with tap tone.

Martin


I think everyone is forgoting about straight grain of the shaft...all the best playing shafts that I've encountered have very straight grain....it doesn't matter is the ring count is 4 or 20 plus.. I have some shaft that are only 8-10 with perfect straight grain and they are the best playing shafts ever. Check SW and Schon and you can tell the quality of their grain (both vertical and horizontal) as I'm told. I guess it has to do with how the logs are cut as well but it general...straight grain is the number one criteria for me!

Regards,
Duc.

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

I LIKE OLD DENSE HEAVY SUGAR MAPLE. I HATE WHITE SHAFT WOOD, IT MAKES ME MAD.:mad: I WISH THE SUGARY YELLOWISH STUFF WAS MORE READILY AVAILABLE.

I DON'T THINK IT'S ONE CHARACTERISTIC THAT MAKES WOOD GOOD FOR SHAFTS, BUT MORE A COMBINATION OF THINGS.

[jazznpool]

Nice avatar change...FYI Marcus, if correctly dried, maple can be plenty white without vacuum drying.

Martin


I LIKE OLD DENSE HEAVY SUGAR MAPLE. I HATE WHITE SHAFT WOOD, IT MAKES ME MAD.:mad: I WISH THE SUGARY YELLOWISH STUFF WAS MORE READILY AVAILABLE.

I DON'T THINK IT'S ONE CHARACTERISTIC THAT MAKES WOOD GOOD FOR SHAFTS, BUT MORE A COMBINATION OF THINGS.

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

Nice avatar change...FYI Marcus, if correctly dried, maple can be plenty white without vacuum drying.

Martin

THANKS....I LOVE HER.

I UNDERSTAND THAT IT CAN BE MADE WHITE WITHOUT THE VACUUM DRYING, BUT I'M NOT REFERING TO THAT.

NEW ENGLAND SUGAR MAPLE ALWAYS HAS THAT NICE BROWNISH COLOR TO IT. I FEEL THAT WOOD PLAYS BETTER THAN ANY OF THE OTHER STUFF.

[JoeyInCali]

THANKS....I LOVE HER.

I UNDERSTAND THAT IT CAN BE MADE WHITE WITHOUT THE VACUUM DRYING, BUT I'M NOT REFERING TO THAT.

NEW ENGLAND SUGAR MAPLE ALWAYS HAS THAT NICE BROWNISH COLOR TO IT. I FEEL THAT WOOD PLAYS BETTER THAN ANY OF THE OTHER STUFF.
I don't think they can turn white either unless bleached.
I always wonder why people want really white shafts when they're just gonna turn blue anyway. And yellow when they get old.
I have really white shafts for the Japanese market. They love em .
Me not gonna argue with them.

[masonh]

Jimmy Reid lives near me and used to play poll at the local pool hall.when he got a new shaft or new cue that was white,he would go outside and get dirt and rub it into the shaft attempting to get it darker.

like Joey said white is a waste b/c they won't be white for long.