Question for the rule guros

[billiardpete]

Hi guys,

This is a question that was asked this past Saturday. OK here it goes, if the fifteenth ball and the cue ball end in the rack, what do you do? Now I know that it would never happen but please try not to slam me for the question. When I was asked i felt a little stumped. My thought was that in this case you would have ball in hand behind the head string and the fifteenth ball would be racked in the rack. The alternate idea that came out was that the cue ball would go on the head spot, and the object ball (the fifteenth ball) would be placed in the dead middle of the table. Any idea guys?


Pete

[steev]

15th - head spot.
CB - kitchen.

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_141.shtml

-s

[rikdee]

15th ball - foot spot, cb behind the headstring.

[billiardpete]

15th - head spot.
CB - kitchen.

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_141.shtml

-s


Cue ball lies
15th ball lies In the Rack
Not in the Rack and
not on the Head Spot*
On The Head Spot*

In The Rack 15th ball: foot spot
Cue Ball: in kitchen
15th ball: head spot
Cue Ball: in position 15th ball: center spot
Cue Ball: in position
Pocketed 15th ball: foot spot
Cue Ball: in kitchen 15th ball: foot spot
Cue Ball: in position 15th ball: foot spot
Cue Ball: in position
Behind Head String,
But not on Head Spot 15th ball: in position
Cue Ball: head spot
Not behind Head String,
and not in the Rack 15th ball: in position
Cue Ball: in kitchen
On Head Spot 15th ball: in position
Cue Ball: center spot *on spot means to interfere with
spotting a ball on the head spot


So can you shoot the fifteenth ball from behind the head string?

[selftaut]

the 15th ball gets racked (foot spot) , and cue ball in the kitchen.

[George Fels]

Yes, if the last ball was on the foot spot and the cue ball was in the rack, then the 15th ball goes to the center spot and you can shoot it. The catch is that it doesn't lie anywhere very good for a break shot; about your only opportunity is to use extreme follow and hope your CB contacts the two top balls. Hope this helps. GF

[Vahmurka]

if the fifteenth ball and the cue ball end in the rack, what do you do? Now I know that it would never happen why never happen, it sure can. So, the new WPA rules say the following (nothing changed in regard with your Q compared to old version, but I suggest to link to new World rules from now on - http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_141#4.8)
4.8 Special Racking Situations
When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply.
...
(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.

[Vahmurka]

Yes, if the last ball was on the foot spot and the cue ball was in the rack, then the 15th ball goes to the center spot and you can shoot it.Aren't you mistaken here, George? If you look at the summary of racking situations 15th ball does go to the center spot only when it is in the rack while cb is on the head spot.Rule 4.8 (c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.

[steev]

15th - head spot.
CB - kitchen.

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_141.shtml

-s

yeah, i get the head and foot spot mixed up all the time...

always good to have a few mistakes on the permanent AZ record.

-s

[Bob Jewett]

Hi guys,

This is a question that was asked this past Saturday. OK here it goes, if the fifteenth ball and the cue ball end in the rack, what do you do? ...
Leaving both balls in the rack is not what a player would want to do, but it happens fairly often. Here is the full text of the new rules about 14.1 racks:

4.8 Special Racking Situations
When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.
(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.
(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.
(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.
(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.
In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.

[billiardpete]

Leaving both balls in the rack is not what a player would want to do, but it happens fairly often. Here is the full text of the new rules about 14.1 racks:

4.8 Special Racking Situations
When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.
(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.
(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.
(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.
(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.
In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.

Thank you Bob and everyone else. This is a clearly stated rule, and even I can understand it as it is writen.

Pete

[George Fels]

Yes, Vahmurka, you're right and I was wrong. Thank you. GF

[OneArmed]

Leaving both balls in the rack is not what a player would want to do, but it happens fairly often. Here is the full text of the new rules about 14.1 racks:

4.8 Special Racking Situations
When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.
(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.
(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.
(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.
(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.
In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.

WPA rules on this subject are much easier to understand than the BCA chart.

[Vahmurka]

Yes, Vahmurka, you're right and I was wrong. Thank you. GFhuh! Thank YOU for the books by GF I have. You were the first man to introduce me to 14.1, I mean the proper way to play the game. I've got "How Would You Play This" and "Advanced Pool" volumes. Must've been another one around but I can't see it on my bookshelf, must've been borrowed by some of my friends ;)
Now I'm looking forward instructional stuff by Blackjack he announced. A book and a DVD that is :)

WPA rules on this subject are much easier to understand than the BCA chart.why? I don't think BCA rules are different to WPA ones since they are based on them and are (almost?) identical. And in WPA World rules the chart follows the rule provided by Bob Jewett here which you quote. I believe the reason is just because it is easier to understand in particular situations - you just find the line, the column which present your situation and find a solution in the intersection.

edited for typos

[OneArmed]

why? I don't think BCA rules are different to WPA ones since they are based on them and are (almost?) identical. And in WPA World rules the chart follows the rule provided by Bob Jewett here which you quote. I believe the reason is just because it is easier to understand in particular situations - you just find the line, the column which present your situation and find a solution in the intersection.



You are right, the rules aren't much different. But, the BCA rules have that chart which caused major confusion with the players in my 14.1 league. the WPA way of explaining it makes much more sense to someone who is not familiar with the chart.

I can't count on 4 hands how many times I had to explain that chart to someone last year. I think if I would have used WPA rules, might have saved some confusion.

[Bob Jewett]

... I can't count on 4 hands how many times I had to explain that chart to someone last year. I think if I would have used WPA rules, might have saved some confusion.
In my original revision of that rule, I omitted the chart, since I thought the wording was finally sufficiently clear. Some people like the chart better, so it went back in. To the extent that any difference can be found between them, I think the words are the higher authority.

For some people, it is very hard to follow text of the form, If... then ... but if instead ... then such-and-such. They will have to make do with the chart in the absence of illustrations of each possible situation.

[Vahmurka]

For some people, it is very hard to follow text of the form, If... then ... but if instead ... then such-and-such. They will have to make do with the chart in the absence of illustrations of each possible situation.yeah, you have a point here. Just for those (but for convenience also) it is the chart which I carry in my cuecase, so that I could give a quick solution to any end-of-rack situation in straight pool (tried to memorize it but if not applied regularly rules tend to be forgotten)

[fan-tum]

does anyone know a good way to remember which is the head and the foot of the table. No, serious. I've been playing 14.1 for forty years and still can't remember.

[3andstop]

Yes, here is a good way to remember. The headspot is the spot your head lands on if you have to wait forever while your opponent racks the rack and you pass out waiting. :)

[DrDanbro]

yeah, you have a point here. Just for those (but for convenience also) it is the chart which I carry in my cuecase, so that I could give a quick solution to any end-of-rack situation in straight pool (tried to memorize it but if not applied regularly rules tend to be forgotten)
Here's a memory tip that might help:

The rack of balls are roughly the size of a human head.
Find the rack of balls on the table and you have found the table's head.

After that, finding the foot should be easy.

DrDanbro
Former Owner of
Boone's Classic Billiards
Lonaconing, MD
(home of Left Groves)

[3andstop]

Here's a memory tip that might help:

The rack of balls are roughly the size of a human head.
Find the rack of balls on the table and you have found the table's head.

After that, finding the foot should be easy.



no, :) thats bass ackwards. Where the rack goes is the foot. :)

[nick serdula]

You break from the head of the table. Look at your feet while you are racking and you are at the foot of the table. Your head is over the head railbreaking. Your feet are under the foot rail racking.
You guys make simple stuff sound complex.
If the rock is in the rack it goes behind the line in hand.
A object ball in the rack goes to the head spot allowing you to play behind it to still achieve a break shot from between it and the head rail into the side pocket and smash or play safe if you wish. Both balls in the rack both things happen. The 15th ball would be treated as any other ball behind the line.
Nick :)

[Bob Jewett]

does anyone know a good way to remember which is the head and the foot of the table. No, serious. I've been playing 14.1 for forty years and still can't remember.
On a snooker table, the short cushion where you rack is called the "top" cushion.

[Derek]

Another racking question. I sank the 14th ball but played lousy position, glanced off the 15th ball, and the cue landed in the rack area. The 15th ball is out of the rack area and maybe 6 inches off to the side of that rack. So the rule is to locate the cue ball in the kitchen and leave the 15th ball in position.

So looking at my faux pas in position play, it appears that I'm much better off leaving the cue in the rack area than the position I was trying to accomplish with some difficult inside english.

Lacking any experience from watching straight pool matches, am I correct to assume:

- That it's still my turn at the table with the cue ball in the kithcen? I don't have to give up my turn because I landed the cue ball in the rack area?

- I now appear to have a much better breakout shot, so it must be strategic to sometimes leave the cue ball in the rack area to gain a better angle on the 15th ball, although it's a longer shot?

Thanks.

[Scottster]

Lacking any experience from watching straight pool matches, am I correct to assume:

- That it's still my turn at the table with the cue ball in the kithcen? I don't have to give up my turn because I landed the cue ball in the rack area?

- I now appear to have a much better breakout shot, so it must be strategic to sometimes leave the cue ball in the rack area to gain a better angle on the 15th ball, although it's a longer shot?

Thanks.

Yes it is still your shot with BIH behind the head string.

Yes it can be a strategy to leave the CB in the rack area for a better break position.