why do some cue makers

[Thomas Wayne]

[...]
you come off as an arrogant as#hole with your fonts and bolding

if you want to "appear like one the of guys "
change you font and bolding
if you dont you confirm that your intent is to "talk down to us"
JMHO

As I look around the forum a bit I find MANY guys who like to use BOLD, COLOR, and SIZE at their own discretion. I've been unable to find any posts where you, "bbb", have voiced your objection to their choices. Accordingly, I'll reserve that same right for myself - especially since the forum founders - in their infinite wisdom and glory - saw fit to make those choices available to me.

Don't like it? I don't give even the tiniest sliver of a shit. What in the world would make you think I'd care to "appear like one of the guys" I've run into in THIS thread?

TW

 

[TomHay]

Thomas Wayne,

In reply to your PM, don't worry I won't.

On your talk about screen names people use. I am like you I use my own name.

I do have to give you credit for bravery, talking to people the way you do going to Trade Shows, not knowing who you insulted. Wow, me (?) I would worry. Hats off to you.

 

[deanoc]

this thread is being used for purposes it was not intended

i asked a question about cues and the use of rounded or cnc designs
since that time i have learned that searing made the cue i saw many years ago,his large group of dedicated followers have no need to defend his workmanship

Dennis called to personally explain,I am still on his list and have desires to buy my cue,which will have sharp points and inlays

I used to buy thomas wayne cues,but when several warped and he didn't stand behind them,i quit buying them and will never buy another one

if he nas nothing better to do than try to build himself up at someone else expense
I find that offensive,regardless of the size of his fonts

 

[bbb]

this thread is being used for purposes it was not intended

i asked a question about cues and the use of rounded or cnc designs
since that time i have learned that searing made the cue i saw many years ago,his large group of dedicated followers have no need to defend his workmanship

Dennis called to personally explain,I am still on his list and have desires to buy my cue,which will have sharp points and inlays

I used to buy thomas wayne cues,but when several warped and he didn't stand behind them,i quit buying them and will never buy another one

if he nas nothing better to do than try to build himself up at someone else expense
I find that offensive,regardless of the size of his fonts

DEANi sincerely appologize for getting your thread off track
for the record
YOU WERE THE GREATEST TO DEAL WITH AND SOLD ME THE BEST PLAYING CUE I HAVE OWNED SO FAR:smile:
as for thomas wayne it really doesnt matter what he thinks of me
I ALREADY HAVE MY OPINION OF HIM

 

[ribdoner]

this thread is being used for purposes it was not intended

i asked a question about cues and the use of rounded or cnc designs
since that time i have learned that searing made the cue i saw many years ago,his large group of dedicated followers have no need to defend his workmanship

Dennis called to personally explain,I am still on his list and have desires to buy my cue,which will have sharp points and inlays

I used to buy thomas wayne cues,but when several warped and he didn't stand behind them,i quit buying them and will never buy another one

if he nas nothing better to do than try to build himself up at someone else expense
I find that offensive,regardless of the size of his phonse

D,

Thomas told me his q's were str8 when built but some warped while intransit from Alaska to the lower 48 due to variances in atmospheric conditions.

you've had many top shelf cues in the 25+- yrs i've known you and can tell you, from experience, that you'll have the best built cue you've had when you get your SEARING

TC, a

 

[dannylee]

Lucky you dean i am on the list too, but quite far from the top

 

[scdiveteam]

i think he's trying to show his superiority.

guy

Hi,

Don't read into it and do some mind reading.

TW's posts are from the hip but they are his opinion or many times are Tongue and cheek suggestions. I have listened to a few of them and my cue making methods have evolved in a few areas he has magnified here.

There are not too many top tier CMs that post here. TM does not have to speak his mind here but when he does anyone who is perceptive can learn from the master of over 30 years with HOF credentials.

Several months ago he suggested that I carve out the end of my pockets and told me that a simple Xacto knife kit would suffice. I bought a kit and started to practice with lighter colored woods instead of only dark woods. In about 10 inlays I feel I am confident to cut the ends on a cue close to finish size. I thank him for that suggestion because that extra step helped me be a better CM and I was being a little lazy by not adding that extra handcrafted detail.

What he is stating is a simple hand eye skill set and he is sharing that method.

Rick G

 

[cueman]

I think any cuemaker who fails to hand cut sharp corners in ANY cue he's selling is just plain lazy - IF the design benefits from a crisp, sharp look, that is.

TW

Making dogmatic statements like this invites responses like mine. To say any cuemaker is lazy for not cutting in the corners is a nice statement from someone who gets very high dollar for their cues. (Yourself) But for those who are willing to build a cue for less money might satisfy a customers needs for an nice affordable cue by not spending the extra hours knifing in the corners.
Just as an example: If it takes you two extra hours to knife in the corners on all inlays in a cue how much would you charge for those two hours work? Not everyone cares about sharp inlays or wants to pay for those extra hours. Will you put those extra hours in for free?
I guess I am lazy as I knife some and don't others. I actually knifed more in sharp before I started using CNC. It was easier to make parts with sharp corners and the work was about the same to knife the corners as it was to round the ends of the parts off with a hand file.

 

[ScottR]

1) I wrote, EXACTLY:

"I think any cuemaker who fails to hand cut sharp corners in ANY cue he's selling is just plain lazy - IF the design benefits from a crisp, sharp look, that is."

Not addressed to Searing, at Searing, or having anything to do with Searing. I simply gave my opinion of sharp corners versus rounded corners - WHICH IS WHAT THE O.P. REQUESTED - and I went on to point out that it's up to the individual viewer to decide if a particular design warrants the extra effort of hand-cutting in sharp corners.

So all you white-knight Dennis Searing lovers can feel free to cool your jets, I wasn't intending any kind of slur toward him - I think I've seen maybe two of his cues EVER.

2) If "gUycrunch" can freely call me by any nickname he chooses ("tom") then it seems reasonable that I should be able to give him a personalized nickname as well. "Dick" seemed particularity appropriate under the circumstances, but I would hasten to point out that I didn't call him "A dick", merely "dick".

3) "guycrunch", "gaycrunch"... it's all the same to me - just a made up name for some anonymous poster. Ironically, in the small all-lowercase font on a 6" x 8" notebook screen it looks more like "gaycrunch" (at a least to my eye), but I don't really care one way or the other. Could just as easily be spelled m-i-c-k-e-y-m-o-u-s-e as far as I'm concerned - still a nonsense name.

And finally, perfect for the three of you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrJp-DImFoM


TW
(PS: I see (as expected) no one is able to actually QUOTE me - only paraphrase and/or infer their own interpretation.)

Post #5, you say "the next question is whether Searing is capable of doing it". That was your first post in this thread. Plus, you used one of Dennis' cues for your "example". Please spin for me how that is not directed toward Dennis or his abilities.

Tom is a nickname for Thomas. While Guy was probably trying to get under your skin by calling you Tom and Tommy, it at least was not a stretch. You, on the other hand, calling him "dick" and "gay" had nothing to do with his real name. I know, I know. You'll claim you don't know (or care) what his real name is, so it could be Richard or Gaylord.

You really do believe your own line of bullshit, don't you? You also believe that it's ok to insult and bash other cue makers (Mike Lambros and Barry Szamboti on cuezilla), disrespect them (cutting off Bill Schick and deriding others at the ICCS cue makers roundtable) and generally talking down to pretty much everyone that doesn't sit in your inner circle.

I know I'm wasting my time (and further derailing Dean's thread) because I can't imagine you ever saying you were wrong or changing your negativity.

Scott

 

[TomHay]

I think a lot of readers of this thread are being left in confusion.

The cutter that cuts out the pocket in the cue is round no matter how small a bit you use. This means the pocket ends up with a small rounded effect in the cue itself as it is the inside.

The part which goes in the cue being ivory, another wood, silver or whatever is cut from a flat piece and since the rounded cutting bit is cutting the outside rather than inside piece can be sharp on all sides.

The person doing the drawing and G-codes (depending on program in computer such as BobCad) must take a step in the drawing to round out the sharp corners to match the pocket part.

Another way is to cut out your pockets on the cue and by being an artist hand cut with xacto knife the round parts of pocket into sharp angles.

This is an artist skill because if you are off the slightest you will show glue lines in the wood.

Now take me as an example. No way can I do this. My hand writing alone looks like a 2 year olds. My partner Rich had to sign every cue we ever made. Did this stop me from using a CNC? No. For better or worse did it effect the hit of the cue? No. Am I lazy? No.

The ability is a natural artist ability, even with practice. Some have it some do not.

You have a lot of big buck people out there with mansions and billiard rooms where the tables may never be used and the cue becomes part of the Deco of the room. Some of this same group are players as well where the hit is the most important and you have those that are both.

You will never please everyone as one single shoe does not fit all feet so don't even try. Use your talants and service your market. Some will love you some will hate you but such is life.

 

[scdiveteam]

I think a lot of readers of this thread are being left in confusion.

The cutter that cuts out the pocket in the cue is round no matter how small a bit you use. This means the pocket ends up with a small rounded effect in the cue itself as it is the inside.

The part which goes in the cue being ivory, another wood, silver or whatever is cut from a flat piece and since the rounded cutting bit is cutting the outside rather than inside piece can be sharp on all sides.

The person doing the drawing and G-codes (depending on program in computer such as BobCad) must take a step in the drawing to round out the sharp corners to match the pocket part.

Another way is to cut out your pockets on the cue and by being an artist hand cut with xacto knife the round parts of pocket into sharp angles.

This is an artist skill because if you are off the slightest you will show glue lines in the wood.

Now take me as an example. No way can I do this. My hand writing alone looks like a 2 year olds. My partner Rich had to sign every cue we ever made. Did this stop me from using a CNC? No. For better or worse did it effect the hit of the cue? No. Am I lazy? No.

The ability is a natural artist ability, even with practice. Some have it some do not.

You have a lot of big buck people out there with mansions and billiard rooms where the tables may never be used and the cue becomes part of the Deco of the room. Some of this same group are players as well where the hit is the most important and you have those that are both.

You will never please everyone as one single shoe does not fit all feet so don't even try. Use your talants and service your market. Some will love you some will hate you but such is life.

Tom,

Great point of clarification. Well Stated.

There is no reason you can't have both hit as well as style or "art". As the high school coaches state,"be good at all sports". Of coarse the hit or the art is always for others to judge, not the cue maker of his own work.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and taking the time to make sharp pointed pockets is IMO a no brainer that requires a little practice and some patience. TW never bragged or said something like," I am the only one who can do this or something". He was making an observation from his unique perspective. He made his bones many years ago and this sharing his view is revealing of someone that does not fear competition like so many other CMs who keep info close to the vest.

Rick

Here is an example of two of my cues (Mr. Hoppe Design Inlays) that are set in ebony and cocobolo ( darker woods ). The sharp point at the top are cut with a relief slot at the top of the pocket with a .0157 mill so that sharp point has room to fit. When the parts are epoxied and the gap is filled. In ebony the relief slot disappears because back is void of color. There is no need for dyes to get a perfect sharp point. The cocobolo is a reddish brown. The CM must mix up some secret sauce ie. red/brown dye or powered cocobolo dust mixed with the epoxy so when that gap is filled it blends in and is not a sore thumb staring in your face at the business or money end of your inlay.

A very close inspection with a loupe reveals that the ebony one looks perfect but the cocobolo one is hit or miss depending the the color of the grain in that specific area the inlay was processed.

Thomas Wayne places sharp pointed inlays in darker and lighter woods that are from my view as close to perfect and seamless as you can get. The method I describe above is not a good way to do it in lighter woods. If you try to do color matching with light woods you open up more of a can of worms than doing surgery with the knife. It seems to me the more you do it this way the easier it gets.

I don't remember TW saying anything that some here are considering as "High Handed" when he made the statement. It was just a fact and opinion being stated. When the pissing starts then it is Katy bar the doors and everyone being human, defends or attacks positions.

 

[1pRoscoe]

disrespect them (cutting off Bill Schick and deriding others at the ICCS cue makers roundtable)

Every time he posts that's what goes through my head...

 

[Hidy Ho]

Everyone please leave Mr. Searing alone .. he's busy finishing up my repair work. I can't wait to get the cue back!!!!

 

[Spimp13]

I think any cuemaker who fails to hand cut sharp corners in ANY cue he's selling is just plain lazy - IF the design benefits from a crisp, sharp look, that is.

Getting back on track...

I agree with this with the stipulation you put in. Perception is in the eye of the customer who is the one spending the money. What is the cost difference (cuemakers in this threads' opinions) between the two pictures you posted (figuratively speaking) from a labor's point of view? Time frame difference? Cost to correct the mistake? I've always thought for the most part sharp inlays when warranted make the cue pop more depending on the design, type of wood used etc.

 

[Canadian cue]

TW,

Actually, in the 3rd and 13th post in this thread you suggest Dennis is either lazy of uncaring about his cues. I've known him for over 20 years and whatever else his faults may be, he is neither of those things. He really does want everything that goes into every one of his cues to be perfect and if it takes 6 months to get it better then that is what it takes. Numerous times I have seen him taking months and months of his time building tools to make a better parts even though what he was using were as good or better as anybody's to start with.

Decorative inlaying is not what Dennis is known for and 10 years ago when he inherited his first crude CNC, he did what was possible. After rebuilding and improving that CNC machine, he decided to build his own. Today he can and does use.005" and smaller bits for the few inlays he does and for him, having a CNC only increases and complicates his work.

As a side point what practical application does a .005" endmill have in cue making? The flute length of the endmill is only .015". So other than engraving I fail to see how these can be used in the building of cues. I have seen these numbers thrown around here and am a little skeptical.

 

[Thomas Wayne]

[...]
To say any cuemaker is lazy for not cutting in the corners is a nice statement from someone who gets very high dollar for their cues. (Yourself) But for those who are willing to build a cue for less money might satisfy a customers needs for an nice affordable cue by not spending the extra hours knifing in the corners.

Just as an example: If it takes you two extra hours to knife in the corners on all inlays in a cue how much would you charge for those two hours work? Not everyone cares about sharp inlays or wants to pay for those extra hours. Will you put those extra hours in for free?
[...]

Yes, Chris, I will.

No matter what the price level of a cue, if the finished design benefits from sharp inlay corners (and therefore would suffer from "dull" corners), I'll make them sharp every time. I would never pull up on something as simple as knifing in the corners just to increase my income on any given cue. And very often the price of a cue is set in stone long before I get to that point in the construction. I've been putting sharp corners into designs for so long now I don't even think of it as extra work; rather, it's as mandatory as putting ferrules and tips on the shafts.

Many, MANY times I've submitted a drawn design to a customer and settled on a finished price without first knowing how I would accomplish some of the trickier parts of that design. After a few decades of doing this I've developed the confidence that I will find a way to achieve the look I want, and that's what I'll end up doing - regardless of the agreed upon price.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

To others posting in this thread:

The original poster asked for opinions specifically about sharp/dull corners in a SEARING cue, and he did so because he saw photos of a particular cue. I used those exact photos to demonstrate the difference between the two looks, leaving it entirely up to the individual reader to decide which he likes better. At NO time did I intend (or make) any slur toward Dennis Searing, whom I don't know and whose cues I have almost never seen.

Searing-lovers and/or Wayne-haters seem driven to twist or misconstrue what I said, but the facts are there in black and white (and bold, large font - lol)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<

For Tom Hay:
Years ago Fine Woodworking published an article discussing "workmanship of certainty" vs. "workmanship of risk"; you should seek that article out. In the same issue (IIRC) they specifically featured a bowl carver named David Pye, who had built some incredible tools and jigs to guide his hand chisels - thereby producing some of the most amazingly precise hand-carved bowls I have ever seen.

Follow this link, and read the whole damn thing - paying particular attention to the close-up photos of the Pye bowl. You'll see dozens of converging grooves, perfectly spaced, and all formed with a hand chisel:
http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2008/11/david-pye.html

Now do yourself a big favor and go buy a copy of Pye's book "The Nature and Art of Workmanship" - it may very well be one of the best investments you'll ever make in your budding cuemaking career. If you don't like the book let me know and I'll buy it for what you paid plus shipping. I'll gift it to a newbie who actually gives a shit about his work.

Do you think I simply "free-hand" the sharp corners for my inlay pockets? I don't. Just like that bowl carver I've found/developed ways to guide my hand tools with the precision I want. You could too, if you're willing to transcend the physical limits you've put on yourself and find another way to do it. A fellow I know named Richard Turner is one of the finest sleight-of-hand card magicians and gambling mechanics on the planet, and he's also virtually blind. If he can overcome blindness - preventing him from being able to practice his sleights on video (or in a mirror) - surely you can overcome something as insignificant as shaky hands.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

And finally, I'm as scrappy as anyone, but it gets tiring after while. I think I'll let the ax-grinding anonymous assholes win this one. From now on I'll do my best to confine my comments on this forum to posting photos of my own cues, historical points in cuemaking, and smart-ass comments. All you cuemaking experts can enjoy your mutual-admiration society and I'll just keep my technical ideas, methods, and opinions to myself. You'll probably be happier not knowing there's other and/or better ways to do things.

TW

 

[pescadoman]

AT the risk of hypocrisy, it sure would be nice if points could be made without condescending remarks.

 

[Canadian cue]

There is a point here I think worth mentioning as it relates to to the personalities of the cuemakers, I cant say for sure if this applies to TW because I don't know the man but his work reflects a type of character. The people who strive for a very high level of perfection and are very critical of themselfs. This also is sometimes how they treat others. That being said every one likes to beat up on the perfectionist but at the end of the day who do they want working on there stuff? The guy that is easy going? Or the guy that only settles for perfection? IMO sometimes it is hard to have both, because what is considered a character flaw is what enables the perfection in there work.

 

[Fast Lenny]

this thread is being used for purposes it was not intended

i asked a question about cues and the use of rounded or cnc designs
since that time i have learned that searing made the cue i saw many years ago,his large group of dedicated followers have no need to defend his workmanship

Dennis called to personally explain,I am still on his list and have desires to buy my cue,which will have sharp points and inlays

I used to buy thomas wayne cues,but when several warped and he didn't stand behind them,i quit buying them and will never buy another one

if he nas nothing better to do than try to build himself up at someone else expense
I find that offensive,regardless of the size of his fonts

I am curious as to why Mr. Wayne did not address this issue of his cues warping and not standing behind them, especially several to one buyer. To me that is the most important thing that a cue stays straight, even cues I get from overseas like PI have stayed straight and considering its so humid there and dry here in Arizona that says a lot.

 

[TomHay]

Thomas Wayne, I thank you for the heads up on that book. I love stuff like that, always have.

Because I might not be able to do it never stops my want for the knowledge of the how it is done.

Thomas, sometimes the written word can lose context. I am in great hopes this was the case. I never have seen one of your cues or a picture of one I did not go in awe of most of the art and creativity.

I don't care if you post extra large in magical colors. I will read any post you put up in hopes to find out the endless things I don't know.