I agree. Taking that idea further...what baseline reference does it use and pick out which memory to draw upon?
Best,
Mike
Contact Point Aiming Illusion
- Thread starter Mikjary
- Start date
I agree. Taking that idea further...what baseline reference does it use and pick out which memory to draw upon?
Best,
Mike
Though slower shots are more susceptible to collision-induced throw, shoot softly enough to get a feel for cut shots and their paths. It's hard for anyone to improve cut shot technique via contact point aim and build subconcious and conscious discernment banging the balls.
Here's a great drill for adding a tremendous amount of touch to cuts laden with throw... The "Home Again" Cut Shot
I'd guess that it matches amounts of CB/OB overlap with cut angles ("this amount of overlap = that cut angle"). That's not particularly sophisticated or analytical, more of a "brute force" method that takes advantage of the brain's phenomenal storage and search capacity.
pj
chgo
Interesting thought. So, if I'm aiming at the contact point, my brain is taking information from my visuals and doing something I am totally unaware of to get me to the correct alignment? I hate to say this but, :smile: could this be similar to what pivot systems employ?
Best,
Mike
I'm no neural specialist, but that's my guess.
I think it's how we all find the final aim line, no matter what method or system we use to get close to it (fractions, fractions+pivot, ghost ball, contact points, whatever). When I say "aim by feel" or "fine-tune by feel", this is what I mean.
But again, this is just my layman's opinion.
pj
chgo
Mik,
like shown up from several guys in many other threads- not every *system* works for everyone. I can tell you for sure, that an allready very strong player (student of mine) still have had really trouble on some shots- he just wasn t able to *see* those shots. After explaining him another contact to contact system including some drills to shoot those angles, he immediatley was able to *see the shots* much better. And he practiced them *with the new idea*. He increased the shots for about 30 % which is a big amount. Sometimes it is just how to explain something. It may be explained from different instructors/players differently with different vocabulary, bc of different expiriences and of course also with different kind of knowledge.
You can take any system- and any system need adjustments. You have to find the systems which work for you, and where you are able to compensate things easily and repeatable. You need to get the *muscle memory* built and the visuals burning in. Then you will have a much easier time to *just see the shots* and some day also to play em subconcsiously without the need to concentrate on em like crazy.
lg
Ingo
like shown up from several guys in many other threads- not every *system* works for everyone. I can tell you for sure, that an allready very strong player (student of mine) still have had really trouble on some shots- he just wasn t able to *see* those shots. After explaining him another contact to contact system including some drills to shoot those angles, he immediatley was able to *see the shots* much better. And he practiced them *with the new idea*. He increased the shots for about 30 % which is a big amount. Sometimes it is just how to explain something. It may be explained from different instructors/players differently with different vocabulary, bc of different expiriences and of course also with different kind of knowledge.
You can take any system- and any system need adjustments. You have to find the systems which work for you, and where you are able to compensate things easily and repeatable. You need to get the *muscle memory* built and the visuals burning in. Then you will have a much easier time to *just see the shots* and some day also to play em subconcsiously without the need to concentrate on em like crazy.
lg
Ingo
One Pocket John says that he sees the OB and CB as disks - they look like disks.
In order to imagine the contact point on the OB that sends it to the pocket/target, one must imagine the OB as a sphere in order to imagine where the line from the pocket to the center of the OB and finally exits the side of the OB that you are looking at. Once you locate that spot, you can imagine the OB as a disk with the spot to the left or right of the center (straight in shot would be a spot in the center of the disk.
If you try to imagine the OB as a disk to find the contact point, it will always be in the center of the disk.
Alternatively, you can look at the top of the OB and see the line exiting the disk. Getting back to the shot from behind the CB, you can then see the spot (contact point) on the OB as a disk.
If you can imagine the same spot on the opposite side of the CB as a spot on the CB disk, for a cut on the OB to the right, all you have to do is aim the spot on the right side of the center on the OB disk to the spot on the left side of center on the OB. the tricky part is stroking your cue parallel to that spot to spot line.
I can see the simplicity of this description for aiming with that one caviat.
You can even use your stick to line up the shot:
Be well.
In order to imagine the contact point on the OB that sends it to the pocket/target, one must imagine the OB as a sphere in order to imagine where the line from the pocket to the center of the OB and finally exits the side of the OB that you are looking at. Once you locate that spot, you can imagine the OB as a disk with the spot to the left or right of the center (straight in shot would be a spot in the center of the disk.
If you try to imagine the OB as a disk to find the contact point, it will always be in the center of the disk.
Alternatively, you can look at the top of the OB and see the line exiting the disk. Getting back to the shot from behind the CB, you can then see the spot (contact point) on the OB as a disk.
If you can imagine the same spot on the opposite side of the CB as a spot on the CB disk, for a cut on the OB to the right, all you have to do is aim the spot on the right side of the center on the OB disk to the spot on the left side of center on the OB. the tricky part is stroking your cue parallel to that spot to spot line.
I can see the simplicity of this description for aiming with that one caviat.
You can even use your stick to line up the shot:
Be well.
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Because snooker players play on such a large table which has extremely small pockets, they need all the help they can get.To pot the ball the Line of Aim must be offset to establish the correct point of contact (POC) between cue ball and object ball.
"Stick Aiming" or also known in another version called "Line Aiming" is very effective- i often wonder that s not being taught more often. (in combination with another system)
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Thanks Ratta, I now have a name for the system.
Here is something else that was taught to me by the late Harry Sims (my instructor for the fundematals and3 cushion billiards.
We are on a pocket table and apparently Harry saw something in my stroke he wasnt to happy with, so he says to me "on the next shot I want you to try to make the OB slide into the pocket". So I tried, this one idea has made a big change in my pool shooting life.
If you never thought about trying to slidethe OB into the pocket give it a try.
Back to seeing the OB as flat. There is also a target in the center (like a target on a rifle range)
Thanks again
John
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I agree with Patrick's assessment. As you start playing and progress your eyes and brain do an amazing job of self-calibration based on both positive and negative results. People with better eye-hand coordination will typically be more successful at this than others, but it's the same learning process we go through when learning to throw a baseball, shoot a basketball, etc.
The various aiming systems might help narrow down your focus to the correct geometrical spot that needs to be hit to make the ball, or accelerate the learning process, and various systems might help different people differently. The side benefits of using a repeatable preshot routine on every shot has been documented, as well as the resulting confidence that can result from increased performance.
Ultimately though the same way we can throw a baseball 100 feet into a small target without calculating speed, angles, wind, gravity, etc. we learn to do the same thing in pool no matter the method used to get there.
Scott
The various aiming systems might help narrow down your focus to the correct geometrical spot that needs to be hit to make the ball, or accelerate the learning process, and various systems might help different people differently. The side benefits of using a repeatable preshot routine on every shot has been documented, as well as the resulting confidence that can result from increased performance.
Ultimately though the same way we can throw a baseball 100 feet into a small target without calculating speed, angles, wind, gravity, etc. we learn to do the same thing in pool no matter the method used to get there.
Scott
What about players that shoot by feel? What are their brains doing? Do they have a subconscious system? My point is that even if you consciously have no system to pocket balls, your brain is not guessing where to shoot the cue ball. It is a computer taking in all variables and from a reference or starting point, it comes up with an answer.
I'm not saying everybody uses an aiming system. Fahgedaboudit! I'd like to know what others think about their brain's method of lining up shots. By feel without an aiming system.
Best,
Mike
I'm not saying everybody uses an aiming system. Fahgedaboudit! I'd like to know what others think about their brain's method of lining up shots. By feel without an aiming system.
Best,
Mike
I'm not sure what you mean by "from a reference or starting point". Can you give an example?
pj
chgo
It all comes down to trail and error.
See shot.
Do shot.
Shot goes in.
See shot.
Do shot.
Shot does not go in.
Do what works. I know this sounds simple but this is how it works.
When I was first learning pool way back when, I went to the table, set up a shot and tried to put the CB where I thought it needed to be. It didn't take long to realized that where I hit the OB determined where the OB went. Back then, there was no internet and no where the amount of info on pool there is no days. Plus, there was no pool room where I lived. I learned at the rec center. I learned about pool on my own basically.
I then realized what a center pocket hit looked like and when I missed, I knew which way to adjust for the next shot.
Trail and error. Do this and see what happens. Try that and see what happens. The more misses you make, the better you will get. Missing is natures way of telling you you screwed up and don't do that again.
Somethings you have to do and the more you do it the better the feel for it. I do custom handles on kitchen knives. There are some blades that require the bolsters to be filed flat and square and the handle materiel side. There is a feel for when the file is working right. There is feel when you are moving the file in the right direction flat in the material.
When first learning to use a file, I was terrible. No feel for the file, no muscle memory for using a file. But the more I do it, the more feel I am getting and the better the muscle memory, the easier moving the file. Trail and error. I read about using a file, but not the same as doing.
Same with shot making, winning pool games. You got to do it, paying attention to what works and doesn't and just keep at it.
See shot.
Do shot.
Shot goes in.
See shot.
Do shot.
Shot does not go in.
Do what works. I know this sounds simple but this is how it works.
When I was first learning pool way back when, I went to the table, set up a shot and tried to put the CB where I thought it needed to be. It didn't take long to realized that where I hit the OB determined where the OB went. Back then, there was no internet and no where the amount of info on pool there is no days. Plus, there was no pool room where I lived. I learned at the rec center. I learned about pool on my own basically.
I then realized what a center pocket hit looked like and when I missed, I knew which way to adjust for the next shot.
Trail and error. Do this and see what happens. Try that and see what happens. The more misses you make, the better you will get. Missing is natures way of telling you you screwed up and don't do that again.
Somethings you have to do and the more you do it the better the feel for it. I do custom handles on kitchen knives. There are some blades that require the bolsters to be filed flat and square and the handle materiel side. There is a feel for when the file is working right. There is feel when you are moving the file in the right direction flat in the material.
When first learning to use a file, I was terrible. No feel for the file, no muscle memory for using a file. But the more I do it, the more feel I am getting and the better the muscle memory, the easier moving the file. Trail and error. I read about using a file, but not the same as doing.
Same with shot making, winning pool games. You got to do it, paying attention to what works and doesn't and just keep at it.
Yep, we have a subconscious aiming system whether we like it or not. Doesn't matter if we are shooting pool or throwing paper into a trashcan, we are constantly making adjustments based on past experiences.
I shot for many years with no formal aiming system, I wasn't even aware of CTE and similar concepts at the time. I always just pictured the overlap of the balls being at the right thickness to make the ball go in the direction of the pocket. Since I was more analytical I knew about things like CIT, deflection, etc., but many good players then (and now even) didn't and just learned to adjust for those things through experience. Other people might have envisioned the ghost ball, contact point, etc.
Since I am very analytical, I've enjoyed learning about and using the aiming systems, it makes me feel like I'm "guessing" less on where to hit the ball, and I can treat a straight in 2 foot shot the same as a 60 degree backcut using the same approach and steps just a different starting alignment and/or pivot for the category of shot at hand. It has worked better for me than just pure subconscious aiming, but it takes conscious thought and practice and that can actually mask your natural ability to feel certain shots and feel lost if you can't use the system for a given shot. I've played long enough where I can get around that, similar to in 3 cushion where I'll use systems if I can but am willing and capable of going "off the grid" for those specialty shots that come up that just require feel.
I look at it like throwing an object at something, whether it be a baseball into a mitt, paper into a trashcan, etc. Assuming you have some level of coordination, how many times can you just look at something quickly and throw an object pretty precisely right to that location? But if you stand there and try to do it, or someone is betting you that you can't do it, you take too much time and try to be too perfect and end up talking yourself out of your natural ability and miss? For me that's the difference between conscious and unconscious aiming.
Scott
I shot for many years with no formal aiming system, I wasn't even aware of CTE and similar concepts at the time. I always just pictured the overlap of the balls being at the right thickness to make the ball go in the direction of the pocket. Since I was more analytical I knew about things like CIT, deflection, etc., but many good players then (and now even) didn't and just learned to adjust for those things through experience. Other people might have envisioned the ghost ball, contact point, etc.
Since I am very analytical, I've enjoyed learning about and using the aiming systems, it makes me feel like I'm "guessing" less on where to hit the ball, and I can treat a straight in 2 foot shot the same as a 60 degree backcut using the same approach and steps just a different starting alignment and/or pivot for the category of shot at hand. It has worked better for me than just pure subconscious aiming, but it takes conscious thought and practice and that can actually mask your natural ability to feel certain shots and feel lost if you can't use the system for a given shot. I've played long enough where I can get around that, similar to in 3 cushion where I'll use systems if I can but am willing and capable of going "off the grid" for those specialty shots that come up that just require feel.
I look at it like throwing an object at something, whether it be a baseball into a mitt, paper into a trashcan, etc. Assuming you have some level of coordination, how many times can you just look at something quickly and throw an object pretty precisely right to that location? But if you stand there and try to do it, or someone is betting you that you can't do it, you take too much time and try to be too perfect and end up talking yourself out of your natural ability and miss? For me that's the difference between conscious and unconscious aiming.
Scott
When shooting by feel, as the player gains experience they establish a personal pattern they will use to line up each shot. This first look could be lining up the center of the cue ball with the contact point, or edge of the object ball to cue ball center. Small adjustments can then be made to tune into a better alignment if necessary.
The tuning in portion is the subconscious mind comparing memories (as you suggested) and coming up with a solution. Could you also say, since the subconscious mind is acting like a computer, that it is comparing snapshots of previous successes and alignments rather than a system such as ghost ball or double the distance aiming?
Best,
Mike
Does this include retraining when you miss a shot? Such as resetting the shot (if possible) and trying it after the correct adjustment? I've found this to be a huge factor in reinforcing the subconscious part of my game. It creates a lot of feedback and forces my brain to pay attention.
Best,
Mike
Well said! Playing at an advanced level requires a shooter to trust their instincts and accept the fact that all their practice and work will make them successful. There can be no doubt of the outcome. Watch out Efren! :smile:
Pool - Very Simple, Very Easy
One thing that is overlooked in pool is THE CUE BALL IS THE TARGET...it's just aligned to the object ball or cushion (on kicks)....100% of the time on ANY SHOT I must hit a specific point on the cue ball to execute the shot....the object ball is used to line up AND to give me feedback on what I did right or wrong.....if it communicates that I executed the shot correctly and the results are what I want I'm fine.....it the results aren't reflecting I want or expect I MUST PRACTICE and calibrate my system/routine until the results are consistently positive.....this is broken down into the simplest explanation of what I perceive pocket billiards to be..so before getting into the more advanced concepts of body alignment,
position play and strategy, it's essential to develop a system to hit the cue ball precisely ...line up on the object ball
oke:aim at the cue ball
One thing that is overlooked in pool is THE CUE BALL IS THE TARGET...it's just aligned to the object ball or cushion (on kicks)....100% of the time on ANY SHOT I must hit a specific point on the cue ball to execute the shot....the object ball is used to line up AND to give me feedback on what I did right or wrong.....if it communicates that I executed the shot correctly and the results are what I want I'm fine.....it the results aren't reflecting I want or expect I MUST PRACTICE and calibrate my system/routine until the results are consistently positive.....this is broken down into the simplest explanation of what I perceive pocket billiards to be..so before getting into the more advanced concepts of body alignment,
position play and strategy, it's essential to develop a system to hit the cue ball precisely ...line up on the object ball
oke:aim at the cue ball
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