WPBL (Bonus Ball) - Pocket Cut

[nb92]

This question was answered before.....and is still the right answer....you have made a smaller target in the center of the table.....in which most tables are going with.
But....the big difference is that you made it a lot easier to pocket balls down the rails.

No matter what size pockets are on a pool table.....shooting a ball down the rail is always the smallest target on the table.

You have made that target range shooting down the rail look smaller.....but made it play very big with a 138 miter cut.

Sure the players are going to like it....they're not used to playing on something that takes everything down the rails.

Shooting balls close to the rails....should take more skill from the players.....that's what separates the good players from the great players.

All your doing is making it the same for all players........with the exception of the smaller target in the center of the table......the more accurate player will show up in the center of the table....not shooting balls down the rails.

I have all the respect for Ernesto......he's been a long time friend and great guy.....this has nothing to do with him......just giving my knowledge of pockets and tables.

Rails are something we need to understand better....there's a lot of people offering this kind of work today......but......a lot of people doing the work don't have the first clue what their really doing....their just following numbers...and think the table plays fine.

I've said this time and again....if your not a good player....how are you ever going to understand how rails or pocket openings should play.

Ernesto's was and is still a great player.....and he's done great table work for ever....I just don't agree with making the pockets play so easy shooting down the rails.....takes away the better players advantages of being a great player.

Mark Gregory

Agreed... .....

 

[nathandumoulin]

I just don't agree with making the pockets play so easy shooting down the rails.....takes away the better players advantages of being a great player.

You make it sound like the pockets play like buckets down the rail, and impossible from center table. However if you came and hit balls, youd see that we have a near perfect balance now. All shots are equally difficult, and all play honest. This table is equally tough from every angle, but if you hit it cleanly, the pocket will take it as it should.

I'm not sure if you took some advice from people regarding your posts, or stress has been reduced after the launch, but your recent posts are taking on a completely different feel than ones from a week ago.

Yeah, I was under some serious pressure last week for that disaster, and although it was only the online aspect that suffered, having my peers blame me took its toll. Part of the responsibility of being in charge I guess. When something goes wrong, someone has to be held accountable.

Word from our networking guys, is that the servers are fixed. Something to do with a bad apache configuration that was making the site run super inefficiently. I dont have a clue about that stuff, so hopefully they know whats up and I dont end up looking like an idiot again.

As for the streaming, that is also solved as there was a bug in the Amazon distribution template, that created a caching error. Again, I dont know about that stuff, but it seems to be solved (Ive been testing it for a few days during the night time when Morra has been hitting balls 14-16 hours non stop lol). I also added the IOS support, and made it so the PHP on the site adds the recorded videos to the archive automatically after each show. I also made a fallback button, so if the stream dies, it will automatically replace our existing feed with a ustream embed.

Hoping for a MUCH less disastrous stream this week.

Actually, even though our Amazon distribution is working, Im thinking of using ustream in HD for tonight anyway, just to avoid the possibility of something going wrong.

 

[perfectpocketz]

I'm not making it sound like buckets....and I'm 100% not knocking the table or anyone's idea's on how to change the pockets.
I have a GC5 in my house....with 4" corner pockets....with 51 degree miter angles and a 13 down angle...trust me I can fire the balls down the rails and there's no problem making shots I hit good...or even close to good.
I may not play as well as I once did.....but trust me I can still play with just about anyone......and I for sure know pool tables and specially the rail work on them.
I'm sure the table plays well.....I don't need to hit balls on it to know how the tables going to play.

Ask Johnny Archer how well his table at home plays for him....another GC5 with 4 1/8th corners......52 degree miters and 13 down angle.

There's a lot more involved with pockets than just numbers.....I did mention that before.
Trust me...I hope BB is a success....I hope the players do well.....but we're talking about pockets sizes.

The tables are going to play soft down the rails with 48 degree miters.....true fact.

Wish ya'll the best..

Mark Gregory

 

[hang-the-9]

This is interesting, is the studio and table open at any time? I'll be there for the Jr Nationals and would like to see how this type of table plays.

One of the only thing I don't like about Diamond and some other tables, is that a shot that looks like it was hit well, just bobbles in the pocket waiting for the next guy to tap it in. On some of the tables I play in on my league, I see a ball hit the inside facing, and instead of going into the pocket, just bounce back and forth and get spit out. It's like you need to aim not just inside the pocket, but to the right point inside the pocket as just making it past the jaws is not enough at times.

 

[CreeDo]

Fantastic idea nathan. Nuts to hear anyone still complain this might play too easy.

there is no scenario where a 3 7/8 pocket will play easier than a 4.25 or higher

Believe it or not, there is. The cut of the pocket makes a huge difference.
Imagine a pocket that's 5 inches wide at the front, and 3 inches wide at the back.
You literally won't make a ball lol. So obviously this 5 inch pocket would be tougher than a 4.5" diamond.

What nathan's done works on the same principle... the front of the pocket and back of the pocket
are almost the same width, and as soon as a pall passes the nipples and hits a facing,
it's angled towards the hole and starting to drop off the shelf immediately.

This makes it play easier than a 4.25" pocket where you hit the facing, the ball is angled away
from the hole and there's still some slate under the ball holding it up.

A lot of players think the same way when they first encounter a diamond.
"omg a diamond plays tough as hell it's an inch smaller than a gold crown" but the pocket cut is a little easier,
so you'll find a 4.5" diamond spits out fewer balls than most gold crowns shimmed to 4.5".

 

[realkingcobra]

This question was answered before.....and is still the right answer....you have made a smaller target in the center of the table.....in which most tables are going with.
But....the big difference is that you made it a lot easier to pocket balls down the rails.

No matter what size pockets are on a pool table.....shooting a ball down the rail is always the smallest target on the table.

You have made that target range shooting down the rail look smaller.....but made it play very big with a 138 miter cut.

Sure the players are going to like it....they're not used to playing on something that takes everything down the rails.

Shooting balls close to the rails....should take more skill from the players.....that's what separates the good players from the great players.

All your doing is making it the same for all players........with the exception of the smaller target in the center of the table......the more accurate player will show up in the center of the table....not shooting balls down the rails.

I have all the respect for Ernesto......he's been a long time friend and great guy.....this has nothing to do with him......just giving my knowledge of pockets and tables.

Rails are something we need to understand better....there's a lot of people offering this kind of work today......but......a lot of people doing the work don't have the first clue what their really doing....their just following numbers...and think the table plays fine.

I've said this time and again....if your not a good player....how are you ever going to understand how rails or pocket openings should play.

Ernesto's was and is still a great player.....and he's done great table work for ever....I just don't agree with making the pockets play so easy shooting down the rails.....takes away the better players advantages of being a great player.

Mark Gregory

I agree with Mark on this, as making the pocket angles more parallel is like creating a handicap to make both the good and best players look the same when pocketing balls, further reducing the skill level difference between good and best. It's handicapping the tables, and I don't support that, I do how ever support practice makes perfect!

Glen

 

[bdorman]

It's been a pretty simple equation in all the major sports more offense more viewers

For example, hockey.

 

[Jaden]

I've been telling people this exact thing all the time...

I can't stand deep shelves with small openings. And it's for exactly the same reason you stated, it makes the game different to the point that it's not even fun any more.

When I watched the match yesterday I noticed that the players were NOT rattling balls but they were running out seemingly without fear. I wondered about that because I thought the pockets would so tight that they would cause a lot of misses and a lot more safety play. Now I know that it's your idea of small openings but shallow shelves and I understand why they could play so good on the small pockets.

I think that this is a GREAT innovation and moreover I think it's great that you were able to realize it and try out your theory.

To mean this is what it takes, the small pockets are great because they force precision but not to the point where they cut off power. Being able to bring it with the power shots is one of the things that makes pool exciting. Once the ball gets past the pocket points it should be down.

In fact just this week in dallas I ran into a table that had super tight pockets but even worse, the facings were wider than normal.

I was explaining that even though the Ernesto pockets at hard times were slightly tighter they played about the same with one exception.

If you hit the pocket, the balls drop. If you hit the pocket fast, or slow with spin or speed, the balls drop if you hit center pocket.

That's the only problem I see with diamonds. You hit that pocket perfectly from certain angles at speed and you will rattle balls.

You end up having to change your shots or, as Nathan stated, play safe.

I love tight pockets and absolutely prefer them, but only when they accept balls hit center pocket. I hate having to play certain sides of the pocket to make balls, I much prefer to shoot at center pocket on every shot.

Jaden

 

[Jaden]

It plays easier, but you have to be more accurate...

Fantastic idea nathan. Nuts to hear anyone still complain this might play too easy.



Believe it or not, there is. The cut of the pocket makes a huge difference.
Imagine a pocket that's 5 inches wide at the front, and 3 inches wide at the back.
You literally won't make a ball lol. So obviously this 5 inch pocket would be tougher than a 4.5" diamond.

What nathan's done works on the same principle... the front of the pocket and back of the pocket
are almost the same width, and as soon as a pall passes the nipples and hits a facing,
it's angled towards the hole and starting to drop off the shelf immediately.

This makes it play easier than a 4.25" pocket where you hit the facing, the ball is angled away
from the hole and there's still some slate under the ball holding it up.

A lot of players think the same way when they first encounter a diamond.
"omg a diamond plays tough as hell it's an inch smaller than a gold crown" but the pocket cut is a little easier,
so you'll find a 4.5" diamond spits out fewer balls than most gold crowns shimmed to 4.5".

Yeah, it plays easier, but only if you hit it more accurately.

I have to completely disagree with Mark Gregory. Hitting balls down the rail shouldn't be more difficult, and hitting a ball down the rail on a tight pocket narrower facings accurately IS more difficult than on a table with wide facings. On a wider facing pocket, you are just forced to hit more slowly because even if you hit center pocket on a table with wider facings down the rail and you hit it firm, it AIN'T going...

Jaden

 

[Jaden]

that's ridiculous...

I agree with Mark on this, as making the pocket angles more parallel is like creating a handicap to make both the good and best players look the same when pocketing balls, further reducing the skill level difference between good and best. It's handicapping the tables, and I don't support that, I do how ever support practice makes perfect!

Glen

It's the complete OPPOSITE. Only the best players can consistently hit the center of the pocket. What you are referring to is the ability for the best players know the table and shoot the best shot that will go under those conditions.

Good players can NOT consistently hit center pocket on a table with 3 7/8" pockets, period. good players will look like amateurs on that type of table and the best players will look awesome.

If you can hit a ball slowly and hit half way up the first diamond and still make it, but strike it firm and hit center pocket and MISS it, there's a problem there that should be addressed.


Jaden

 

[pooler]

Although I agree in general with such changes to the pocket cut I have to stress out that:
pool is not only about potting balls but also, if not above all – about position play.

This very style of pocket cut strongly disadvantages the player with a better feel of the table.

However, if in this case the shelf was about a 1/3 of an inch deeper – it would be close to perfect, don’t you think ???

 

[Neil]

It's the complete OPPOSITE. Only the best players can consistently hit the center of the pocket. What you are referring to is the ability for the best players know the table and shoot the best shot that will go under those conditions.

Good players can NOT consistently hit center pocket on a table with 3 7/8" pockets, period. good players will look like amateurs on that type of table and the best players will look awesome.

If you can hit a ball slowly and hit half way up the first diamond and still make it, but strike it firm and hit center pocket and MISS it, there's a problem there that should be addressed.


Jaden

Totally agree with you Jaden. The whole point of the game is to get the ob between the points. If you do that, it should drop. Not miss the pocket but still make it like you can on a diamond if you hit it softly, but if you hit it perfect but hard, you don't get the make. Doesn't make any sense.

 

[spanky79]

Totally agree with you Jaden. The whole point of the game is to get the ob between the points. If you do that, it should drop. Not miss the pocket but still make it like you can on a diamond if you hit it softly, but if you hit it perfect but hard, you don't get the make. Doesn't make any sense.

this one sounds like a no brainer to me. You should be able to hit a ball a break speed if you want to and if it hits the center of the pocket it should fall.

 

[realkingcobra]

It's the complete OPPOSITE. Only the best players can consistently hit the center of the pocket. What you are referring to is the ability for the best players know the table and shoot the best shot that will go under those conditions.

Good players can NOT consistently hit center pocket on a table with 3 7/8" pockets, period. good players will look like amateurs on that type of table and the best players will look awesome.

If you can hit a ball slowly and hit half way up the first diamond and still make it, but strike it firm and hit center pocket and MISS it, there's a problem there that should be addressed.


Jaden

Farboy's rails on his Diamond 9ft ProAm are an excellent example of how tighter pockets should play. I could line up a 5 ball combination shot with all the balls frozen to the side rail, shoot the combo at break speed...and the point ball would go right in the pocket, no rattle, no bobble. .. nothing but gone!!! Now, if someone couldn't repeat that same shot with a single ball frozen to the rail, and cue ball in hand to start with....is it the pocket, or is it the shooter? The only reason this conversation is even taking place, is once again how can we make the tables appear to be harder to play on, but really make the pockets take balls that they normally wouldn't, thus bringing the skills of players closer together....or so it seems.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

A lot of people may disagree with this, but the way I see it is that there is no point in getting into the weeds about facing angles and other such things. Bottom line the WPBL table is a tough and adequate test for the world's best players and that's all it has to be. Debating how tough it is at the margins seems silly to me. I thought the same thing in the discussion about the TAR table.

 

[realkingcobra]

This was mentioned in another thread, so I figured I'd just start a new one. Pocket cuts are like aiming systems as it seems people are very defensive about them, but I figured I'd explain my take on them, as I feel it's a very important element of what we're doing here at the WPBL arena.

I've been a firm believer that the current pocket cut in North America is one of the reason why pool is suffering here. Sounds a bit harsh, and maybe it is, but hopefully I can explain why. I've had an idea of how to improve this for a few years, and proposed it back in a thread last year.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=255620&highlight=pocket

Unfortunately I was met with nearly universal resistance, but I stuck with it anyway. Bonus Ball finally offered me the chance to put my ideas into action.

The issue is that the current pocket standard is penalizing the better players by opening the faces. It jaws balls, and forces players to play pocket speed, thus making the pocket play "phony". A player can slop a ball in softly if rolled in, but a well hit shot done firmly will be rejected. Its terrible for the better players, and even worse for TV, as players often opt to play safe instead of taking on a shot where a ball needs to be pounded in down the rail. I feel a player should be able to pound balls in with speed, with as much spin as possible, and the pocket should always accept it provided the shot was accurate. The aggressive guys who are willing to play dramatic shots should be rewarded, and this new cut does exactly that.

The trick is to shrink the pocket, push the facings back towards parallel so they're around 138 (rather than 141-142), and then ditch the shelf. A ball either goes in, or it misses entirely. No more pocket speed or jawed balls. If you put the ball into the tiny opening, it goes in. If you miss, it leaves the pocket area entirely, thus eliminating jawed balls almost entirely.

It's basically doing the exact opposite of what everyone else has been doing.

I called Ernesto, and had him cut the pockets the way I wanted. To my surprise, he agreed and said that he's done this before, and thinks its the way a pocket should be cut. Sure enough, as players trickled in during opening week, they all agreed. The result is what all the pros here are now calling "a true pro cut". As far as I know, the support is unanimous.

You have to be accurate as hell, but the balls take as they should. Its the best of all worlds, and I'm a firm believer that this will become the new standard, as I know that Rasson over in China is already testing this cut, and may make it the new standard in Asia (albeit 4.25" inch for amateurs, which plays like a 4.5"). Time will tell whether it takes, but from what I've seen this far, the pros may be hesitant to go back to the old cut style.

Please keep in mind that I'm just doing what I feel is best for the game. Not everyone will agree, but whats important to me is that its best for TV, and what the players now agree they want.

If a ball made it 10% of the way in that pocket, it would fall in, is that what pool tables need to play like....really? Cuz that's a joke in my opinion, no different than the APA trying to handicap all players to the point that anyone can win, with...or without the needed skills to play at a top level.

 

[perfectpocketz]

You make it sound like the pockets play like buckets down the rail, and impossible from center table. However if you came and hit balls, youd see that we have a near perfect balance now. All shots are equally difficult, and all play honest. This table is equally tough from every angle, but if you hit it cleanly, the pocket will take it as it should.



Yeah, I was under some serious pressure last week for that disaster, and although it was only the online aspect that suffered, having my peers blame me took its toll. Part of the responsibility of being in charge I guess. When something goes wrong, someone has to be held accountable.

Word from our networking guys, is that the servers are fixed. Something to do with a bad apache configuration that was making the site run super inefficiently. I dont have a clue about that stuff, so hopefully they know whats up and I dont end up looking like an idiot again.

As for the streaming, that is also solved as there was a bug in the Amazon distribution template, that created a caching error. Again, I dont know about that stuff, but it seems to be solved (Ive been testing it for a few days during the night time when Morra has been hitting balls 14-16 hours non stop lol). I also added the IOS support, and made it so the PHP on the site adds the recorded videos to the archive automatically after each show. I also made a fallback button, so if the stream dies, it will automatically replace our existing feed with a ustream embed.

Hoping for a MUCH less disastrous stream this week.

Actually, even though our Amazon distribution is working, Im thinking of using ustream in HD for tonight anyway, just to avoid the possibility of something going wrong.

Yeah, it plays easier, but only if you hit it more accurately.

I have to completely disagree with Mark Gregory. Hitting balls down the rail shouldn't be more difficult, and hitting a ball down the rail on a tight pocket narrower facings accurately IS more difficult than on a table with wide facings. On a wider facing pocket, you are just forced to hit more slowly because even if you hit center pocket on a table with wider facings down the rail and you hit it firm, it AIN'T going...

Jaden

Maybe I can help you better understand as to what I mean when I say shooting balls down the rail should be harder.....for one the point of aim going down the rail is the smallest target....you agree with that?

Now if that's the smallest target on the table...why should if accept the balls easier?
I'm not here to prove anyone wrong.....I know exactly what I'm saying and I'm 100% right.

Players that miss a ball going down the rails more than likely catch the long rail just before the ball goes in the jaws of the corner and it hangs up....they look around because they hit the ball perfect....so they think....now on a diamond table the large facing will hang a ball hit in the very front of the facing without hitting the long rail....because the pockets have a 141.....and 15 down angle.....which in turn means the 15 down angle traps the ball to help it to the back of the pocket....only problem is the slate shelf is so deep it makes the ball hang.

The shelf depth of a pocket means a ton on how the pockets play....shallow shelf the softer the pocket....I understand that the smaller the pocket the more the throat closes up in the back of the pocket.
Now remember on a 5" pocket....depending on the miter cut....the throat is not that small but the ball hangs on a shallow shelf.....because there's more slate shelf close to the facings.

The reason the throat on Ernesto's pockets look Parallel is because of the 48 degree miters.....say someone puts a 54 degree miter on a pocket...the throat looks closed more..the pockets look really big.....but it's hard to make the ball down the rail because of the miter of the pocket.

After 15 years of trying everything on rails....pretty sure I understand what's going on with rails and pockets.

Like I said I have 4" corners on my GC 5 and the table plays pretty good...and has no phony shots going down the rails.

Look I'm not saying its a bad thing if everyone likes and wants it......it's the same pocket for everyone......all I'm saying is by putting more of a parallel corner pocket....shooting balls down the rail becomes and even playing field for all.
That's where the Stricklands...Archers...Alex....Shane....all the great players have and advantage in their skill.....all I'm saying is why take that away from them.

Mark Gregory

 

[MahnaMahna]

I'm sure RKC's way is great for the usual pool games. But this is Bonus Ball and they didn't ask for his opinion for a reason. I wouldn't either. Makes me happy to hear that Ernesto did the work, I doubt anyone had to talk him into making the requested changes.

 

[Mikey Town]

I agree with Mark on this, as making the pocket angles more parallel is like creating a handicap to make both the good and best players look the same when pocketing balls, further reducing the skill level difference between good and best. It's handicapping the tables, and I don't support that, I do how ever support practice makes perfect!

Glen

I'm not sure about this.

I think that the "best" players will always be better than "good" players because... well... they are the best. A lot more goes into playing a great game of pool than just pocketing a ball. The "best" players will always have a better break, play better position and play better patterns than "good" players, regardless of the equipment.

If they were simply changing the angles of the facings to make them accept balls easier, I would agree with you... but they also reduced the pocket openings to ensure that precision is still a part of the game.

If you hit a ball great, then it goes, regardless of the speed you hit it (within reason). I like that idea. Especially for entertainment value... anything that will let the top level players let their beautiful strokes out a bit more often is a good thing.

Would I like to play on tables like this all the time? I'm not sure, but I'd sure like to give it a try. Either way, I commend Nathan for taking his idea and running with it. I'm sure that it will make for more spectacular shot attempts, which is great for TV... and that was the goal in the first place. Mission accomplished. Are these shot attempts going to happen because the table plays "easier" overall, or because there is no fear of rattling a pocket at speed? Who knows? I would have to reserve my judgment on that until I have a chance to play on a table set up like this. For those of you who are commenting that the table does, in fact, play easy, I urge you to hold your judgment until you have a chance to play on a table like this as well. At the end of the day, a 3 7/8" target is pretty darn small, regardless of the facing angles.

One quick suggestion for BB in general: Thorsten's 60 point run was fantastic! Great pool, and very entertaining. The problem is that this only has a chance to happen in a shootout. In all other games, he would have had to stop at 30. I think that playing a format of 4-5 racks per match (the opening break-and-shoot, plus 3-4 more break shots) would be good. After the last ball of the last rack is pocketed, whoever has the higher score wins. This would inject a bit of a Snooker feel into the game, and would give the players chances at higher, more exciting runs.


Cheers,

Mike

 

[Zbotiman]

Agreed!!!

I agree with Mark on this, as making the pocket angles more parallel is like creating a handicap to make both the good and best players look the same when pocketing balls, further reducing the skill level difference between good and best. It's handicapping the tables, and I don't support that, I do how ever support practice makes perfect!

Glen

Boy, I really------never thought I'd say this, but, I totally agree. I've set up a bunch of tables to play tougher (but fair) and after all these years I believe what I've come to find out is; "people don't really care that much about developing their position skills [(which requires larger pockets) like the Diamond Pro cuts] they just want to handicap better players ability to get out by making smaller pockets." In the end it makes NO difference, table is the same for everybody. And pool ain't Snooker!!! That's exactly why Ronnie O'Sullivan didn't win every event he entered playing pool. Well----that and his break.