U.S. Open rules discussion

[itsfroze]

Originally posted by Jay Helfert:
Earl was running five and six racks in every match when he dominated the U.S. Open, and all the other 9-Ball tournaments he played in. I saw good players get Earl down something like 7-2 and the next time they came to the table they were behind 9-7! At one time he was a speed above the world![/QUOTE]
*************

Which matches because I would like to get those DVD's from Accu-stats ???
They don't have many matches with 6 packs, as this has come up in a thread before. I'd like to know the matches.
Can anyone post the many matches with 6 packs from former Opens, I doubt anyone can.
I'll let you figure out why !

There are a few, and that's it.

 

[itsfroze]

PRECISELY !!!

This may now be a purely academic statement, but I feel it should be made.

As soon as the event becomes the WPA sanctioned event (in this case it was officially stated some/long time ago) it should equal as an imperative that such an event follows strictly the WPA official Rules and Regulations.

Here: Players from around the World signed up (paid their money; thus, acquired a status of a valuable customer) based on the official, clear expectations of what and how it would be played.

Believe it or not, the official WPA Rules and Regulations are clear enough for any major tournament to be carried on with no issues.

A week before the start of this event (sanctioned by the WPA) some decisions are made as to how (or not) to play it. Some of these clearly contradict the official WPA Rules and Regulations based on the “phone discussion with Barry and his feeling”… (with all due respect to you, Jay; and, of course, to Barry )

As much as I try to understand all the implications of having different cultural, continental, etc., approaches to the sport, I cannot help but to ask the question:
Where does it lead us to… ???

If the WPA says a sanctioned event has to use WPA rules, then that's the way it is. Until that is the case the U.S. Open
should make the rules any way they feel are right for their tournament.
How many Americans are saying what rules should be used on the EURO TOUR ????? LOL

 

[Colonel]

Another example of the game I love being desecrated with ill advised rule changes,thanks for ruining my day.

 

[leto1776]

--------------> Pleeeeease ! This tournament has been running longer the the WPA has even been in existence.
The U. S. Open should use what ever rules they feel like.

So what if they've been around longer? Doesn't make them the best or their way the right way. The tournament is operating under WPA sanction, awarding WPA points (and drawing more players due to those points), and therefore, should use WPA rules and regulations.

 

[itsfroze]

so what if they've been around longer? Doesn't make them the best or their way the right way. The tournament is operating under wpa sanction, awarding wpa points (and drawing more players due to those points), and therefore, should use wpa rules and regulations.

Oh, really then why doesn't the wpa have a rule stating that's how it must be done then ????????
You seem to be knowledgeable can you point out this rule, where it says a tournament sanctioned
by the WPA has to use WPA rules. I'll watch for your post.

 

[Wedge]

Here is what Mika Immonen thinks (From Facebook)

By: Erik Hjorleifson

Mika Immonen recently voiced his opinion about the racking rules at this years US Open stating that the 9 ball should be moved to the spot, taking away the wing ball being pocketed in the corner pocket. Also adding that without manipulating the rack, the wing ball can't be made when breaking square from the box. Here is the quote from Immonen for those who you have not seen it on Facebook.

"At the US Open, the 9 ball should be racked on the spot. Otherwise it's a bunch of cheaters lining up the wing ball. What a joke.

For example, if it was a solid rack with with the 1-ball on the spot, there is no way the wing ball would go in with a head-on break even from the corner of the "box". Yet these guys blatantly line it up and carry on as it took some real talent.

That's not the way I won my us opens.

Just tired of the mockery."

My initial response to this post is that yes I agree, the 9 ball should be moved to the spot in the US Open tournament and should be a consideration for all major 9 ball events. The US Open has been played with the 9 ball on the spot before at least once around the year 2004 and I believe there was also a few other years around that time when the 1 ball was on the spot.

I do agree with Immonen's statement that the balls have to be racked a certain way for the wing ball to go in when hitting the head ball square from the box. He brought this point up in his comments because that's what Shane Van Boening has been doing for the last two years in most of his matches along his way to victory.

When Immonen had his victories he was using a cut break which simulates breaking from the side rail which is the best angle to make the wing ball from. Immonen infers that what he was doing was in some way better than what Van Boening and a few other players have been doing as of late and I think that's going a little too far. But this is all a matter of opinion and I concede there are counter arguments to all discussions involving the rack.

Here are some of my other opinions about fair solutions involving the 9 ball rack:

The biggest thing that people notice about the nine ball rack with the 1 ball on the spot is that if the balls are racked a certain way the wing ball will always go in the corner. The wing ball is so consistent that there is not much skill in how you hit the rack, when the players are forced to break from the box there is a little more skill but not much.

However with the 9 ball on the spot, the wing ball will not go directly in the corner anymore and the players are forced to try to make the 1 ball in the side. The 1 ball being pocketed in the side is relative to speed and exact angle of contact on the one, now the break becomes a skill shot again much like 10 ball. I don't think it would make it that much easier if you used a magic rack in this case it would just give a consistent fair rack to both players.

Currently the US Open is a rack your own format with the 1 on the spot. As it stands racking the balls is one of the most important skills leading up to this tournament, something that I think is fundamentally wrong when playing the game in a professional setting. I agree that it could be included as a skill set in pool but the value of it is so large and the fact that you're not even using your cue to do it tells me that the format has to be changed to a tapped ball or magic rack method of racking.

In fact all W.P.A. (World Pool Association) events are played with a magic rack, exluding the U.S. Open and I would challenge the organizers to ask themselves why. I also challenge the WPA to ask themselves why they would allow inconsistencies in the rules among tournaments that they promote.

In the end, and coming back to what Immonen said, I think Match-Room Sport is ahead of the curve on this one as they are with most everything else in the industry, in choosing to rack the 9 ball on the spot. This seems to be the only way proven to make the break in a 9 ball a skill shot, not a racking contest or a simple unskilled smashing of the balls.

 

[BRussell]

Good post wedge.

But doesn't the 1-ball in the side become almost as dead when you put the 9-ball on the spot?

 

[pooler]

If the WPA says a sanctioned event has to use WPA rules, then that's the way it is. Until that is the case the U.S. Open
should make the rules any way they feel are right for their tournament.
How many Americans are saying what rules should be used on the EURO TOUR ????? LOL

When any entity sanctions any event, it is an imperative that their "specifications" apply !!!

Thus, a WPA event should follow WPA Rules and Regulations, in any case.

EuroTour is just a Continental Tour; however, if you care to notice, most of its specification follow the WPA, with the exception of the 9-ball on the spot, which is with a consent of the WPA Sports Director; such possibility is to be found within the WPA Rules and Regulations.
Anything reasonable is possible
Just the "based on the phone call with ......" to determine the conduct of the major tournament, a week before the start of a tournament is, at least, worrying; if you think of a bigger picture...
Regards

 

[pooler]

Oh, really then why doesn't the wpa have a rule stating that's how it must be done then ????????
You seem to be knowledgeable can you point out this rule, where it says a tournament sanctioned
by the WPA has to use WPA rules. I'll watch for your post.

What do you mean ??? ???

 

[leto1776]

Oh, really then why doesn't the wpa have a rule stating that's how it must be done then ????????
You seem to be knowledgeable can you point out this rule, where it says a tournament sanctioned
by the WPA has to use WPA rules. I'll watch for your post.

I don 'to know why they don't have a ruling. It's an oversight on their part.

However,mruling or not, if I were a player considering to attend, and I saw the words "WPA sanctioned" I would naturally assume that WPA rules and regs are in effect. If I found out a week before hand that the to was playing around with the rules, I'd be rightfully pissed.

Frankly, bragging about being WPA sanctioned and then not sticking to their rules is, well, nonsensical.

 

[AtLarge]

Good post wedge.

But doesn't the 1-ball in the side become almost as dead when you put the 9-ball on the spot?

It's high frequency when breaking from close to the side rail (as we just saw with the World Cup) but not when breaking from a small box.

 

[itsfroze]

When any entity sanctions any event, it is an imperative that their "specifications" apply !!!

Thus, a WPA event should follow WPA Rules and Regulations, in any case.

EuroTour is just a Continental Tour; however, if you care to notice, most of its specification follow the WPA, with the exception of the 9-ball on the spot, which is with a consent of the WPA Sports Director; such possibility is to be found within the WPA Rules and Regulations.
Anything reasonable is possible
Just the "based on the phone call with ......" to determine the conduct of the major tournament, a week before the start of a tournament is, at least, worrying; if you think of a bigger picture...
Regards

What do I mean, it's simple. Point out the rule from the WPA that states when an event
is sanctioned by the WPA the event must use their rules, please I'd like to see the rule.
There is none as far as I know, enlighten me.

 

[itsfroze]

I don 'to know why they don't have a ruling. It's an oversight on their part.

However,mruling or not, if I were a player considering to attend, and I saw the words "WPA sanctioned" I would naturally assume that WPA rules and regs are in effect. If I found out a week before hand that the to was playing around with the rules, I'd be rightfully pissed.

Frankly, bragging about being WPA sanctioned and then not sticking to their rules is, well, nonsensical.

Oh, oversight, I see. What a crock. That's a pretty big oversight, but since it fits your argument why not use that, LOL LOL LOL

 

[The Renfro]

WPA sanctioning is about points, politics and mainly money... As long as you pay the piper I doubt they give a crap what rules you use... I have yet to see a WPA representative at Barry's unless it is Jerry Forsythe doing double duty unbeknownst to me... I think for your sanctioning fee you are supposed to have their help by them sending a rep....

 

[itsfroze]

By: Erik Hjorleifson

Mika Immonen recently voiced his opinion about the racking rules at this years US Open stating that the 9 ball should be moved to the spot, taking away the wing ball being pocketed in the corner pocket. Also adding that without manipulating the rack, the wing ball can't be made when breaking square from the box. Here is the quote from Immonen for those who you have not seen it on Facebook.

"At the US Open, the 9 ball should be racked on the spot. Otherwise it's a bunch of cheaters lining up the wing ball. What a joke.

For example, if it was a solid rack with with the 1-ball on the spot, there is no way the wing ball would go in with a head-on break even from the corner of the "box". Yet these guys blatantly line it up and carry on as it took some real talent.

That's not the way I won my us opens.

Just tired of the mockery."

My initial response to this post is that yes I agree, the 9 ball should be moved to the spot in the US Open tournament and should be a consideration for all major 9 ball events. The US Open has been played with the 9 ball on the spot before at least once around the year 2004 and I believe there was also a few other years around that time when the 1 ball was on the spot.

I do agree with Immonen's statement that the balls have to be racked a certain way for the wing ball to go in when hitting the head ball square from the box. He brought this point up in his comments because that's what Shane Van Boening has been doing for the last two years in most of his matches along his way to victory.

When Immonen had his victories he was using a cut break which simulates breaking from the side rail which is the best angle to make the wing ball from. Immonen infers that what he was doing was in some way better than what Van Boening and a few other players have been doing as of late and I think that's going a little too far. But this is all a matter of opinion and I concede there are counter arguments to all discussions involving the rack.

Here are some of my other opinions about fair solutions involving the 9 ball rack:

The biggest thing that people notice about the nine ball rack with the 1 ball on the spot is that if the balls are racked a certain way the wing ball will always go in the corner. The wing ball is so consistent that there is not much skill in how you hit the rack, when the players are forced to break from the box there is a little more skill but not much.

However with the 9 ball on the spot, the wing ball will not go directly in the corner anymore and the players are forced to try to make the 1 ball in the side. The 1 ball being pocketed in the side is relative to speed and exact angle of contact on the one, now the break becomes a skill shot again much like 10 ball. I don't think it would make it that much easier if you used a magic rack in this case it would just give a consistent fair rack to both players.

Currently the US Open is a rack your own format with the 1 on the spot. As it stands racking the balls is one of the most important skills leading up to this tournament, something that I think is fundamentally wrong when playing the game in a professional setting. I agree that it could be included as a skill set in pool but the value of it is so large and the fact that you're not even using your cue to do it tells me that the format has to be changed to a tapped ball or magic rack method of racking.

In fact all W.P.A. (World Pool Association) events are played with a magic rack, exluding the U.S. Open and I would challenge the organizers to ask themselves why. I also challenge the WPA to ask themselves why they would allow inconsistencies in the rules among tournaments that they promote.

In the end, and coming back to what Immonen said, I think Match-Room Sport is ahead of the curve on this one as they are with most everything else in the industry, in choosing to rack the 9 ball on the spot. This seems to be the only way proven to make the break in a 9 ball a skill shot, not a racking contest or a simple unskilled smashing of the balls.

Sounds like Mika is whining when I won twice in a row I earned it, but when Shane won twice in a row he cheated. Boo Hoo

 

[naji]

Explain this in detail please. Not getting it.

The one ball is the one that gets all the beating after few matches its roundness changes, and will be hard to rack, so other balls, but not as much as the one ball..

 

[itsfroze]

It's high frequency when breaking from close to the side rail (as we just saw with the World Cup) but not when breaking from a small box.

I think the Break & Run statistics were 12% for 2012 and something like 14% for 2013.
Is that about right, AtLarge, I think that's what you said.
So if that's the case, where are all these 6 packs people are imagining. I have hundreds
of Accu-stats DVD's there just aren't that many with 6 packs.

People always talk about how players are B & R out like water when ever it suits their side of a discussion.

 

[TATE]

Good post wedge.

But doesn't the 1-ball in the side become almost as dead when you put the 9-ball on the spot?

There is no question the 1 ball can be made in the side repeatedly, but angle and speed have to be perfect, so it's not dead. It's a skill shot and will change from table to table and under various conditions.


I will repeat my suggestion:

9 on the spot.

1 on front, 2 in back.

Center line drawn and 1 and 2 must be aligned to it to prevent rack tilting.

A legal break is made when an object ball is pocketed or passes the headstring. Penalty is loss of turn.

 

[pooler]

What do I mean, it's simple. Point out the rule from the WPA that states when an event
is sanctioned by the WPA the event must use their rules, please I'd like to see the rule.
There is none as far as I know, enlighten me.

Well, this is something you may as well question as much as you want but looking at:

section - Notification:
Link:
http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/tournament_sanctioning_catalogue

and

WPA Regulations, point 2 (Exceptions to the Rules)
http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_regulations#2

it would come clear that, to have the event sanctioned, it is not just to pay the sanction fee but also to observe certain guidelines that serve the bigger picture, thus: general progress of pool as a sport recognized worldwide, the same around the World

Certainly, not to rely on the "phone call to someone" a week before the start of the event

 

[itsfroze]

Well, this is something you may as well question as much as you want but looking at:

section - Notification:
Link:
http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/tournament_sanctioning_catalogue

and

WPA Regulations, point 2 (Exceptions to the Rules)
http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_regulations#2

it would come clear that, to have the event sanctioned, it is not just to pay the sanction fee but also to observe certain guidelines that serve the bigger picture, thus: general progress of pool as a sport recognized worldwide, the same around the World

Certainly, not to rely on the "phone call to someone" a week before the start of the event

WPA regulations :

2. Exceptions to the Rules
The actual Rules of Play may not be altered unless a specific waiver is issued by the WPA Sports Director or other WPA official for the individual event. A written explanation of any rules change should be made available at the players’ meeting. They must have a waiver, and if so then they can make what rules they want.

WPA regulations : 17. Open Break Requirements
The tournament management may set additional requirements on the break shot on games that require an “open” break such as nine ball. For example, it may be required to drive three balls above the head string or pocket them. It doesn't sound like they have to strictly follow WPA rules to me.