Elephant Ball/Draw Stroke Analysis

[DrCue'sProtege]

Ok, as most know I cant make a long, straight in shot. Not good with the stun or follow shots but absolutely terrible with the long, straight in draw shot.

So I get the Elephant Ball out tonight so I can see where my tip is contacting the CB. And its seemingly always to the right of the black strip.

1) If I aim right at the middle of the black strip the chalk mark is to the right.
2) If I aim to the left of the black strip the chalk mark is still to the right.
3) And my CB will go to my left when I draw it back but my chalk mark will still be to the right of the black strip.

What is the issue or issues here? Feel free to respond, but as soon as I hit Submit I am heading back down to the table.

r/DCP

 

[ENGLISH!]

Ok, as most know I cant make a long, straight in shot. Not good with the stun or follow shots but absolutely terrible with the long, straight in draw shot.

So I get the Elephant Ball out tonight so I can see where my tip is contacting the CB. And its seemingly always to the right of the black strip.

1) If I aim right at the middle of the black strip the chalk mark is to the right.
2) If I aim to the left of the black strip the chalk mark is still to the right.
3) And my CB will go to my left when I draw it back but my chalk mark will still be to the right of the black strip.

What is the issue or issues here? Feel free to respond, but as soon as I hit Submit I am heading back down to the table.

r/DCP

Remember squirt.

Hitting on the right will squirt the ball to the left & apparently your OB contact is on the left of center. Hence the cue ball goes left.

If you are using a pendulum swing, you might try rotating your stance a bit counter clockwise.

CJ Wiley, when he was here, started talking about aiming with the left foot. I'm rather sure he was talking about aligning more so than actual aiming.

If the stance is not right it can put a 'natural' body influence on the path of the cue.

Stand straight & hold the cue in just your shooting hand with your arms hanging at your side & note that the cue does not point straight out 90* to your hip line. We each have our own angle that the hand & forearm are angled in toward the body.

Rotate clockwise until that cue points on the line. You do NOT want you body to put any 'natural' body force(tendency) on the cue to either side.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

 

[randyg]

Ok, as most know I cant make a long, straight in shot. Not good with the stun or follow shots but absolutely terrible with the long, straight in draw shot.

So I get the Elephant Ball out tonight so I can see where my tip is contacting the CB. And its seemingly always to the right of the black strip.

1) If I aim right at the middle of the black strip the chalk mark is to the right.
2) If I aim to the left of the black strip the chalk mark is still to the right.
3) And my CB will go to my left when I draw it back but my chalk mark will still be to the right of the black strip.

What is the issue or issues here? Feel free to respond, but as soon as I hit Submit I am heading back down to the table.

r/DCP

Mike

Check two things.

After your stroke is completed, where is your tip (in relationship to a straight line to the target) and where is your back hand?

Another common problem is twisting the wrist on draw shots.

Glad to help.
randyg

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

I will tell you that I shot some stun shots and follow shots and the chalk mark was right where it should be. Plus I shot a couple of other shots and the chalk mark was right where it should be.

It seems the issue here is that when you have to put some "oomph" into the stroke so you get the draw I just break down big time.

Maybe I should just quit practicing the long straight in draw shot. Although Nick Varner and Max Eberle both say its a good way to check your stroke and mechanics.

r/DCP

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

Mike

Check two things.

After your stroke is completed, where is your tip (in relationship to a straight line to the target) and where is your back hand?

Another common problem is twisting the wrist on draw shots.

Glad to help.
randyg

Randy,
I think i'll get some of that thin white tape and put it down on the table, use it as a pre/post shot reference. That way I can tell where my tip is after I shoot and where my back hand is to. I've used this tape before.

r/Mike

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

Remember squirt.

Hitting on the right will squirt the ball to the left & apparently your OB contact is on the left of center. Hence the cue ball goes left.

Mr. English Sir,
Thanks for the response. But I am not hitting the CB but about a half tip to the right of the black strip, maybe 3/4 tip at the most. I don't think that would cause enough squirt/deflection to cause this extreme problem.

Its almost like I am flaring the elbow out to the right and then the stroke is coming in at the wrong angle.

r/Mike

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mr. English Sir,
Thanks for the response. But I am not hitting the CB but about a half tip to the right of the black strip, maybe 3/4 tip at the most. I don't think that would cause enough squirt/deflection to cause this extreme problem.

Its almost like I am flaring the elbow out to the right and then the stroke is coming in at the wrong angle.

r/Mike

Well Mike,

After experimenting with TOI, I know how much a difference just a touch off center can make & especially if one is using a non LD shaft.

CJ said that he would use different diameter shafts depending on the size of the table.

How much difference do you think that .5 or .25 millimeters can make?

We play a game of millimeters & they are magnified over distance.

But you may be correct & you may be 'swoop steering the cue'.

Best of Luck in Finding Your Solution.

PS You may want to re-read what I said about our bodies putting influence on the cue line if we are not 'standing' in proper alignment for OUR individual body.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

Randy,
I think i'll get some of that thin white tape and put it down on the table, use it as a pre/post shot reference. That way I can tell where my tip is after I shoot and where my back hand is to. I've used this tape before.

r/Mike

I went to the drug store and got some white tape. But, it seems as if everything happens so fast its hard for me to tell what I am doing. Maybe I need to get my old VHS camcorder out, record myself, and see what I can tell from it.

Unless my old 2009 iPhone 3G has the capabilitity to record video. Which, if it does, somebody needs to tell me how to do that.

r/DCP

 

[bbb]

my thoughts but i am not an instructor so i would like to know if the instructors agree with me or not for my education
when you are shooting extreme draw
the distance from the vertical center to the edge of the cue ball is smaller than when trying to hit center ball
so
your tip offset from vertical is a larger percentage of the radius of the cue ball
compared to center ball
so a small offset could cause more squirt than you think
which is why you are hitting left of aim on the object ball

 

[ENGLISH!]

I went to the drug store and got some white tape. But, it seems as if everything happens so fast its hard for me to tell what I am doing. Maybe I need to get my old VHS camcorder out, record myself, and see what I can tell from it.

Unless my old 2009 iPhone 3G has the capabilitity to record video. Which, if it does, somebody needs to tell me how to do that.

r/DCP

I don't know what type of stroke or method to draw the ball that you are using but have you tried to throw the cue with a stroke slip.

That might give some insight as to where the issue is.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

And what is a stroke slip?

 

[ENGLISH!]

my thoughts but i am not an instructor so i would like to know if the instructors agree with me or not for my education
when you are shooting extreme draw
the distance from the vertical center to the edge of the cue ball is smaller than when trying to hit center ball
so
your tip offset from vertical is a larger percentage of the radius of the cue ball
compared to center ball
so a small offset could cause more squirt than you think
which is why you are hitting left of aim on the object ball

Larry,

The squirt from an off center hit is right through the center of gravity of the ball which should be at the the center of the ball. Picture a vector form the contact point through the 3D center of the ball & exiting out the other side. that exit point is the direction of squirt but that vector is combined with the forward vector for a net effect.

The squirt for a hit on the vertical axis but below the equator is up & forward.

There is more side direction squirt for a 3 mm off center hit on the equator than there is for a maximum low hit ON the vertical axis and much more than an equal 3 mm off vertical axis hit at that maximum low location.

I hope I said that clearly enough,

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

 

[randyg]

Well Mike,

After experimenting with TOI, I know how much a difference just a touch off center can make & especially if one is using a non LD shaft.

CJ said that he would use different diameter shafts depending on the size of the table.

How much difference do you think that .5 or .25 millimeters can make?

We play a game of millimeters & they are magnified over distance.

But you may be correct & you may be 'swoop steering the cue'.

Best of Luck in Finding Your Solution.

PS You may want to re-read what I said about our bodies putting influence on the cue line if we are not 'standing' in proper alignment for OUR individual body.

Rick

Please tell us what TOI is agin?

Thanks
randyg

 

[ENGLISH!]

And what is a stroke slip?

It's when you let the cue slide through the hand on the forward stroke...

sort of like throwing the cue into the ball.

Like I said, I do not know what type of cue motion or connection to the cue it is that you are using.

If you can get a video, I would suggest asking Fran to take a look at it.

Best 2 Ya.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick

Please tell us what TOI is agin?

Thanks
randyg

I guess you think that is funny.

Who is this "us" of which you speak.

Did you not once meet with CJ with the intent of coming back & giving a complete review of "TOI" here? If I remember correctly it entailed all of something like, 'It's not bad'.

I've asked several times now in several locations with no answer from anyone.

Can you tell "us" all why you are no longer President of the PBIA?

Thanks in Advance,
Rick

PS If anyone else is really interested in TOI, one can do a search & see what CJ, himself had to say.

 

[FranCrimi]

And what is a stroke slip?

I prefer the term 'release stroke.' It's where you release your grip on the cue as it's moving forward to where the cue actually slides through your grip hand, hitting the cue ball without the interference of your grip hand.

 

[FranCrimi]

Ok, as most know I cant make a long, straight in shot. Not good with the stun or follow shots but absolutely terrible with the long, straight in draw shot.

So I get the Elephant Ball out tonight so I can see where my tip is contacting the CB. And its seemingly always to the right of the black strip.

1) If I aim right at the middle of the black strip the chalk mark is to the right.
2) If I aim to the left of the black strip the chalk mark is still to the right.
3) And my CB will go to my left when I draw it back but my chalk mark will still be to the right of the black strip.

What is the issue or issues here? Feel free to respond, but as soon as I hit Submit I am heading back down to the table.

r/DCP

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ....

I think you have asked this question before and I have said to you that you have to have a check list of things you go through so you can start eliminating possibilities. I mentioned to you to check the knuckles of your grip hand before and after you stroke to make sure they are in the exact same place on the cue. (Do I have the right person here or was that someone else?)

That's just one of many things you will have to troubleshoot. Another is your cue alignment. It may not be straight. You may be aiming at the right point on the cue ball but your angle of alignment may be off.

If you really want help here you're going to have to figure out a way to get a video of yourself shooting and post a link to it. Have someone do it for you if you can't.

 

[Scott Lee]

Why is that any of your business? Can you tell "us" all why you feel like you HAVE to respond to every single post and thread, especially when it's in the Ask the Instructor forum, and you are NOT any kind of an instructor? This is the Ask the Instructor forum, not the Ask English forum. :angry: Oh, and btw, Randy was never President of the PBIA.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Can you tell "us" all why you are no longer President of the PBIA?

Rick

.

 

[Scott Lee]

Mike...the most likely culprit is that you are "grabbing" the cue on shots where you feel like you need more speed (your mind thinks "power", so you automatically grip the cue tighter than normal). This enables the shoulder to become part of the swing, and can contribute to steering the cue. BTW, a tip of english is 3mm or 1/8".

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[Neil]

I guess you think that is funny.

Who is this "us" of which you speak.

Did you not once meet with CJ with the intent of coming back & giving a review of "TOI" here? If I remember correctly it entailed all of something like, 'It's not bad'.

I've asked several times now in several locations with no answer from anyone.

Can you tell "us" all why you are no longer President of the PBIA?

Thanks in Advance,
Rick

PS If anyone else is really interested in TOI, one can do a search & see what CJ, himself had to say.

Really, you couldn't comprehend that "us" is the reading audience? Once again, you show that you don't know what you are talking about on here. If you were an instructor, you should have known that there was a very specific reason Randy asked you that question. And, you should have known the answer right away.

But, since you aren't an instructor, you gave out incorrect info once again. And you have no clue that you even did, or where to even look for what was wrong. You take bits and pieces of what you think others said that you like, and then try and sound like you know what you are talking about on here. When, to those that do know, it is quite obvious that you do not understand what you are saying at all.