Ben Hogan and Tiger Woods had different swing planes from the top.
Both were in the same bottom positions when ball contact was made.
Ben Hogan always had a mindset for the game. Tiger has lost all his.
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This is interesting.
- Thread starter One Pocket John
- Start date
Ben Hogan and Tiger Woods had different swing planes from the top.
Both were in the same bottom positions when ball contact was made.
Ben Hogan always had a mindset for the game. Tiger has lost all his.
.
They had different swing planes from the top and to the top because they were of different height and builds. They generated power differently not only because of physical differences but also the major change in equipment from their eras. Both had perfect positions at every stage. Poetry in motion and beautiful to watch.
Tiger lost all of his mindset from his own doing.
But back to my original question. Any ideas?
Personally, I thought Sam Snead had the smoothest stroke ever, but admittedly I haven't seen a ton of film of his play compared to the other guys.
Yes, good call Dan on Snead. Imo, that swing is more poetic.
Tiger did not have a perfect swing, even though he did adhere to extreme textbook mechanics to the point of being robotic, which I also believe, allowed him to produce any desired trajectory or shot shape with every club. That's why he's tiger woods, the most dynamic player ever so far, but not quite the best because to be the best, there's also the component of longevity.
Best:
Golf = Jack
Pool = Efren....I think
No doubt though, excluding the other ingredients, Tiger was the best but perfect swing, no. He dropped his head coming into impact because of the incredible up force, which is a undesired compensatory motion, therefore not ideal, not perfect.
Splitting hairs and I don't like to critique awesomeness, but the reality has to be called out.
Tiger should have stuck with Butch or something of that continued direction and he would have put the records out of reach for possibly ....EVER.
Tiger is an idiot but I admire him beyond reasonable limits.
Spider:
I want to hear some of your theories sir and don't forget about Willie Hoppe. There may be in fact something more ideal about the side arm technique but obviously the reasons are so various, it's hard to truly quantify the validity.
Most great side arm players is a biproduct of playing since a child and being shorter than the table etc etc.
Playing since a young age goes a long way toward ability and results obviously.
However, my theory is that the side arm technique helps produce a more disposition of keeping the cue from going inside (if you're a righty) and I believe that is a big key and possibly the most important.
That's also why I believe Shane has a nuclear stroke because one key aspect is that chicken wing counter move he does that prevents a reroute of the cue delivery and keeps it STRAIGHT. His reroute is that elbow move he does.
Side arm doesn't require or helps aid in naturally stroking straight through correctly because the side arm itself is a compensatory move itself in a sense, that is already preset, thus no timing involved, thus not really "compensatory" and just simply natural and probably ideal for what is known as "stroke" as it relates to human physiology.
So I guess that takes us back to "what ever works" but there's no doubt that there is an ideal and that brings us back to adherence to mechanics. IMO, adherence to "ideal mechanics" in the typical sense is the superior route.
Back to golf. I heard it said and I do agree with this as well, the best swings believe it or not, was guys like John daly or Couples or of course TOM WATSON because it was their natural god given swing and the factor of repeatability goes a long way and possibly the ultimate pinnacle.
Jack is the best and his swing is not textbook like greg norman.
I still say text book mechanics is a prerequisite for the highest and higher levels and the reason being is because we know what the limiting factor is and that's the human body. If we didn't have bones and joints, then probably we would swing a club or cue much differently than imagined. So, since we aren't worms, we know what are perameters are with the structure of the human body and it's mental make up that works with the structure.
If someone says no no you're wrong, listen, stroke the cue from under your right leg, im all ears and show why it works better and I'll do it too.
No you wouldn't. You just stated that text book mechanics are where it's at and is your strong belief. Two professional players and instructors have shown on video how and why Tuck and Roll works and can be applied but you have no interest in working with it at all.
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mr spider sir, are you sure thats what i said?
I never speak in terms of finality, just like I won't assume you will NOT go back and read exactly what I said just on the subject of "tuck and roll"....never mind the few other things.
You come across as the type who won't go back and read it though, so should i just say, "no you wouldnt" too?
Any way, it wouldnt surprise me if you did surprise me and I'm not going to think more or less about you.
I dont mind things getting personal, just keep it in context, thanks. Opinions are great too, feel free to call me an idiot any time and I have no issue with that.
When someone tells me what i will or wont do and its based out of context, I dont care for that. Its nonconstructive and I'm here for solutions and to contribute because it may just help someone, just like anything YOU might say, may just help me in my goal of smashing every pro on the planet.
Thanks.
LMAO. How many have you beaten so far? How old were you when you first started playing pool and how old are you now?
Will you be putting all of your basement laboratory findings and secrets on video or in a book? When can we look forward to your first big tournament with the pros to see how you fared? Come to think of it, we don't know who to look for. What is your full name? Hi, I'm Dave Segal. I'm going to take a guess on your name -
PAUL COREY. Professor Irwin Corey's brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJIvBeVKoQA
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Here is an interesting survey I took quite a while back. This site is mentioned in The Little Book of Talent.
http://angeladuckworth.com/grit-scale/
My score was 4.94
How well did you do.
Have fun with it.
John
http://angeladuckworth.com/grit-scale/
My score was 4.94
How well did you do.
Have fun with it.
John
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My Grit score:. 4.3.Here is an interesting survey I took quite a while back. This site is mentioned in The Little Book of Talent.
http://angeladuckworth.com/grit-scale/
My score was 4.94
How well did you do.
Have fun with it.
John
Spider, I practice 10 hours a day on average and I dont feel its enough and i plan on pushing harder for the next year, so you wont be hearing from me sooner than later.
I'm exhausted and never take a day off. I dont sleep well either. Practiced till 1am last night, slept by 330am, awake at 730am and cant sleep and all i think about is getting back to the tables.
I write because it helps me clear my thoughts. I know what it is that i am saying or have said and i know when certain words are going to bite me in the ass. I have expressed this before and not as a pass to allow me to run riot and say anything i want.
I can go like this and run ragged for years because thats how ive always done things, like in the oil field, 15 hours a day, no days off, for 6-7 months at a time and the only reason for the break is because THEY forced me to, and I would fight their order.
Does that mean you should get off my back? Give me a break? No.
I know for a fact you skewed interpretation and i can easily prove that, but i wont, Im just not compelled enough, so you win. Cool?
I have tremendous will power and i really like myself because of that. Why am i saying it? I dont know and im not going to ponder, but i guess maybe this is my final say and thank you for reminding me why i dont like forums and I need to focus more time at the tables so I can prove IM RIGHT.
I know im right.
I give a lot and my door is rarely closed to people......I could have said "never", BUT theres always someone like you to keep me in check, even though I'm climbing a mountain with little rest and have no clue how high it is and i better get to the destination within a year.....so its time to start really moving my ass.
Thanks.
I'm exhausted and never take a day off. I dont sleep well either. Practiced till 1am last night, slept by 330am, awake at 730am and cant sleep and all i think about is getting back to the tables.
I write because it helps me clear my thoughts. I know what it is that i am saying or have said and i know when certain words are going to bite me in the ass. I have expressed this before and not as a pass to allow me to run riot and say anything i want.
I can go like this and run ragged for years because thats how ive always done things, like in the oil field, 15 hours a day, no days off, for 6-7 months at a time and the only reason for the break is because THEY forced me to, and I would fight their order.
Does that mean you should get off my back? Give me a break? No.
I know for a fact you skewed interpretation and i can easily prove that, but i wont, Im just not compelled enough, so you win. Cool?
I have tremendous will power and i really like myself because of that. Why am i saying it? I dont know and im not going to ponder, but i guess maybe this is my final say and thank you for reminding me why i dont like forums and I need to focus more time at the tables so I can prove IM RIGHT.
I know im right.
I give a lot and my door is rarely closed to people......I could have said "never", BUT theres always someone like you to keep me in check, even though I'm climbing a mountain with little rest and have no clue how high it is and i better get to the destination within a year.....so its time to start really moving my ass.
Thanks.
Don't take it personally, paultex. Spider eventually gets around to insulting and deriding everybody in the forum eventually, so it's nothing personal. It's just his way. Away from pool discussion I think he's a normal person, but in here... not so much. Just ignore it and carry on. I've grown to enjoy your ramblings disguised as posts. :thumbup:
Before you fall into a very deep crevice while you're climbing the mountain and we never hear from you again, could you oblige me with the answers to the following?
How old were you when you first started playing pool and how old are you now?
Will you be putting all of your basement laboratory findings and secrets on video or in a book?
When can we look forward to your first big tournament with the pros to see how you fared? Come to think of it, we don't know who to look for. What is your full name? I'm Dave Segal.
A whole lot of Tuck and Roll in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ASYPY3QJTs
I use to think that they were using BHE. But if you catch what they are doing with their grip hand (wrist action) you can clearly see
that Tuck and Roll is being used.
John
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ASYPY3QJTs
I use to think that they were using BHE. But if you catch what they are doing with their grip hand (wrist action) you can clearly see
that Tuck and Roll is being used.
John
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LMAO! If this doesn't take the cake coming from YOU, of all people. Paultex should thank his lucky stars you didn't go into action and start hammering him senselessly about any of his ramblings like you have for the last 5+ years of hammering Stan with your obsessions.
You New Jersey dudes really do have some brass balls and they're not Centennials.
The end result is about the same. You can move the butt then stroke or start the stroke and pivot on the fly. At DCC in '07 i got right behind a few of the Filipino's. On some shots they parallel shift and on others they'd use bhe. Don't know what their choice was based on other than just a million hours of experience.
Spider, what i do know is this, a tuck or roll can often be substituted for "elbow in or out" or sqweeze thumb or index finger, (the one next to your thumb), not sure if that is "index", but when talking to you, I got to cover my trail.
A foot stance of both feet perpendicular but parallel to the shot line can give you a bias of shaft angle to the right as well but it's not necessarily automatic depending on variables, and a stance where you plant your right leg straight and then torque body to the left, like a type of snooker stance, can give you left angle shaft bias.
I use all these methods, including "tuck and roll", but never on the fly, always pivot tuck or roll one or two clicks as if it were a nob.
Sometimes tuck or roll has an opposite effect depending on body position.
If one can align themselves perfectly, they can eliminate all of the above and produce these effects with perception and alignment. I cannot and I dont foresee myself going that direction, but i believe guys like o'sullivan and van boening can.....i think, but i'm not sure.
Most players cant but these techniques i described are a very viable and they flat out work, end of story.
I have many other methods and I came up with all this on my own, i have mastered none but it's all coming around.
However, if it werent for Stan and CJ primarily, I would have been spinning my wheels still I'm sure. I got 2 simple clues from them off the net and I was clever enough to take the ball and run with it.
CJ Wiley......"i don't know what aiming is".
BOOM! GENIUS!.....Thank you mr wiley, you have created a monster.
I took the bigger leap though....."alignment IS the SYSTEM": analyze........COMPLETE:
FACT:
FORMULATION + LAUNCH POINT + CUE BALL STATIC REST = pool.
AIMING = NON SEQUITUR
"Pool" is a knowledge endeavor, not a skill demand. Skill is a default bi-product of sincere pursuit and application.
BALL POCKETING = Binary event of allowance or finality.
No, I'm not writing a book, but if I did, it would take a few minutes to read,
BUT,
my video would be called "pool!....weeeeee!!" and the opening scene would be like star wars where the words "so you want to be a pool player, eh???" would float off into space.
Then the movie would be about a guy in the blazing hot sun, digging a ditch in the middle of no where and working HARD non stop....while guzzling milk of ipecac for refreshment!
Here's the sound track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRxrCBvt7TM
It would be a hour long,
BUT,
the documentary film called "The making of "pool.....weeeeee!!" would be about 20 hours like a epic Hindie movie.
Spider, youre not in my league bro, just give it up.
Have a nice day guys, I dont have a personal problem with this place, but I really got to stop posting for at least a few months. I have not been putting the proper work in and I believe "pool" is a all or nothing endeavor. Definitely my toughest challenge in life so far.
I would say my chances of developing my game enough to send Orcollo back to the islands BROKE, is about 5% right now. By next month, it could be 20%, who knows.
Not even the spider knows.
Spider, i sacrificed my nap to write all this.....you owe me one dude. Ill be 50 in a few months, thats all youre getting out of me. Wish me luck sir, i think im going to need it....i think.
LMAO! If this doesn't take the cake coming from YOU, of all people. Paultex should thank his lucky stars you didn't go into action and start hammering him senselessly about any of his ramblings like you have for the last 5+ years of hammering Stan with your obsessions.
You New Jersey dudes really do have some brass balls and they're not Centennials.
I think the more appropriate word you were looking for earlier is "crevasse," not "crevice."
Yeh, after selling all of my mountain climbing gear to take up surfing because that's where all the hot chicks are (never saw one on a mountain), I even forgot the correct jargon. Thanks good buddy, old pal.
All I have to say about your entire above post while shaking my head from side to side is...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b5aW08ivHU
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John, go to your table and try an experiment. Let me know the results. Set up some shots from head to foot or foot to head and have the balls lined up so that if you hit center CB to center OB it would hit some place between the first diamond from the pocket and the corner pocket. Line up to do exactly that. Doesn't matter how far apart the two balls are. A straight shot can be somewhere between a couple of inches from the pocket or to the first diamond itself. Maybe beyond but that could be stretching it.
Get down on the shot and line it up straight into the rail. But if it's a cut to the right, use roll when you start your forward stroke. If it's a left cut, use tuck.
It may depend on what cue or shaft you use (LD or other), where does the OB hit and end up? Into the end rail or in the pocket?
You can also set the balls up from side rail to side rail and shoot into one of the corner pockets. What happens when you tuck or roll aiming center to center without trying for a contact point either right or left?
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