I wish aliens could come down and study pool players, and let them know how many balls they miss precisley because they started changing their aiming.
How do you Aim Off to compensate for sidespin
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I don't have to argue about "aiming systems" Adam, because I have the ability and communication skills to demonstrate them and how they work. I sell knowledge...nothing else...and that knowledge is based on science and experience...not to mention success with tens of thousands of students, of all abilities, including pros. You are a pro player who gives lessons...I am a professional instructor. There is a world of difference. To state undeniably that no pro players use any kind of aiming methods is simply ludicrous. BTW, "feel" is an aiming method! LOL 
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
This just shows how little you know about "aiming systems" and how they work for many players, including pros. That's, of course, okay, because everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Aiming methods don't try to be all things to all players. If you find one or more that work for you...use them. If not, find another way to hit the ball. To say unilaterally that none work even a substantial portion of the time is ignorant.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Aiming systems applied with discipline will help those among us who struggle to find consistency.
Regardless of your approach, you need a way to "burn in" your aim. Hitting a million balls does that. But if you are not structured or disciplined it may be two million, who knows.
Aiming systems are just one way to help you have some semblance of consistency. It's not The only way but it is one way worth trying if you are struggling; or if u don't have much time to play but want to speed up your progress.
Regardless of your approach, you need a way to "burn in" your aim. Hitting a million balls does that. But if you are not structured or disciplined it may be two million, who knows.
Aiming systems are just one way to help you have some semblance of consistency. It's not The only way but it is one way worth trying if you are struggling; or if u don't have much time to play but want to speed up your progress.
Colin Colenso and Joe Tucker are the BHE guys.
JT BHE instruction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwVBh73s9js
JT shooting Colin's workout shots (nice guitar background):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj98db58bbc
JT BHE instruction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwVBh73s9js
JT shooting Colin's workout shots (nice guitar background):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj98db58bbc
Nice post.
In my opinion, the more you teach a player how to aim, the more you are head****ing him. I am not saying you agree with that, but that's how I see it. If I had a kid and he wanted to be a pro pool player and looked to me for advice pretty much the only thing I'd ever tell him is "you should either be practicing, and when you're not practicing you should be in some sort of challenging competitive matchup". Rinse and repeat. That's it, that's all there is to it. I agree people who say otherwise are selling something.
Again, the ignorance is astounding here. We have disagreed before, and certainly do again on this subject. So...exactly what and how should they be practicing? Playing the ghost? random shooting? playing sets for money? None of those are disciplined practice...structured, organized, with ways to measure your success, and improvement. So you're also disagreeing with the successful training methods of every top professional instructor on the planet! Nice to know that you guys know so much more than everybody else! LOL
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
That isn't what I said. Before you can attempt to debate someone, you first have to able and willing to carefully read what they have said, and then make sure you have also comprehended it correctly. What I said was that "none of them work even a significant portion of the time without subconscious adjustments based on experience--otherwise known as 'feel'".
Pretty much any aiming system can be made to appear to work well enough because your subconscious is usually capable of learning to overrule the errors inherent in the system (and they ALL have inherent errors, it is only how many and how severe that varies). This is of course harder for the subconscious to accomplish the more errors there are in the system, and the more severe those errors are, but our subconscious mind is very powerful and will usually manage pretty well although the more errors there are to overcome (and the more severe the errors), the more errors that will tend to slip through without having been adequately corrected for which of course results in more mistakes in our shooting, otherwise known as missing (these often end up being erroneously attributed as delivery errors though). Make no mistake about it, if you are pocketing the majority of the balls you are shooting at, no matter what system you are using, it is only because of the subconscious corrections you are making by "feel" based on experience even though you may not realize that is what is happening (which is why it is called the subconscious) because they all have inherent errors and problems--some just have a lot more than others.
No, it shows how little you know about aiming systems. What I said is not opinion but is absolute fact, and the proof has been shown time and time again. Sadly, a real catch 22 situation is caused by the fact that most simply don't possess the intellect required to understand the proof.
Outside of feel alone, the closest thing we have to a perfect aiming system and the closest thing possible is ghost ball, which is geometrically correct and gives you the correct shot line prior to taking into consideration cut induced throw, spin induced throw, squirt, swerve, etc, but since one or more of those things exists on almost every single shot, feel still ends up being used on almost every single shot as well even if you are using that system.
Then take the various CTE based aiming systems for example. There again you are already having to use feel on almost every single shot to subconsciously adjust for cut induced throw, spin induced throw, squirt, swerve, etc just like you do with ghost ball, but there are other new errors that also have to be adjusted for that are not present in ghost ball, chief among them the fact that they do not give you the geometrically correct shot line to begin with for the vast majority of shots like ghost ball does. Then they also introduce other variables such as pivots that are yet another error that has to be subconsciously adjusted for and overcome. So instead of just having to adjust for for SIT, CIT, squirt, swerve, etc, you are having to adjust for SIT, CIT, squirt, swerve, as well as an incorrect aim line, an unnecessary pivot, etc, etc.
No matter what system you are using, you are having to use feel to make subconscious adjustments for something on almost every shot, and with some systems you are having to make adjustments for many things on almost every shot.
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Hahaha, I felt that my thread has been hijacked.
Let me weigh in on this. I totally agree with Scott Lee for a few reasons:
1. Can a cook who have been cooking for 20 years be a good cook? Probably cooking the same dish over a few hundred thousand times? Unless he has feedback from those eating that dish, he could improve, but marginally. HAMB is a myth. Muscle memory is also a myth in getting you to be a good pool player. Unless you have a coach or a fellow pool player to correct your stroke, all these millions of strokes only enhance and ingrained all the bad habits that you had when you first started playing.
2. If a few of you come together for a meeting on a business idea, and no one has prepared anything for the meeting, then the meeting will be a sham. At least someone must prepare a simple proposal (or even some pointers) so that all those in the meeting can use that proposal to agree, disagree, refine or to add in more ideas. Aiming system is like a proposal. It gives you a starting reference/guide. How much and which one you want to use is entirely up to you. Without an aiming system, how could you teach a first timer where to aim. The first aiming system will always be ghostball and the contact point shown (without explaining throw).
3. Fundamental. Many here say that they just aim and shoot , while compensating for English. They could visualize the CB path. That is weird. Amount of deflections are different for different tables, different bridge lengths, different cues and different stroke strength. Knowing the basic principles are key to playing good pool because you have the fundamental to fall on when you are not making balls or getting shape for the next ball.
4. Feel? If there truly is a way to teach feel, then we can talk about feel. Otherwise, I would attribute that to talent. If you are talented, then you could pot the ball easily as you could visualize your CB travelling and contacting the OB and the OB travelling to the pocket. Many of us can't. Even with that feel, you need to get your CB to that exact position that you visualized and that requires a good alignment and good stroke.
Is it possible for newbie to be an excellent/pro player after hitting a million balls (all self taught, with no new knowledge from internet, friends, etc)? Only on pure talent alone? I don't think so.
Let me weigh in on this. I totally agree with Scott Lee for a few reasons:
1. Can a cook who have been cooking for 20 years be a good cook? Probably cooking the same dish over a few hundred thousand times? Unless he has feedback from those eating that dish, he could improve, but marginally. HAMB is a myth. Muscle memory is also a myth in getting you to be a good pool player. Unless you have a coach or a fellow pool player to correct your stroke, all these millions of strokes only enhance and ingrained all the bad habits that you had when you first started playing.
2. If a few of you come together for a meeting on a business idea, and no one has prepared anything for the meeting, then the meeting will be a sham. At least someone must prepare a simple proposal (or even some pointers) so that all those in the meeting can use that proposal to agree, disagree, refine or to add in more ideas. Aiming system is like a proposal. It gives you a starting reference/guide. How much and which one you want to use is entirely up to you. Without an aiming system, how could you teach a first timer where to aim. The first aiming system will always be ghostball and the contact point shown (without explaining throw).
3. Fundamental. Many here say that they just aim and shoot , while compensating for English. They could visualize the CB path. That is weird. Amount of deflections are different for different tables, different bridge lengths, different cues and different stroke strength. Knowing the basic principles are key to playing good pool because you have the fundamental to fall on when you are not making balls or getting shape for the next ball.
4. Feel? If there truly is a way to teach feel, then we can talk about feel. Otherwise, I would attribute that to talent. If you are talented, then you could pot the ball easily as you could visualize your CB travelling and contacting the OB and the OB travelling to the pocket. Many of us can't. Even with that feel, you need to get your CB to that exact position that you visualized and that requires a good alignment and good stroke.
Is it possible for newbie to be an excellent/pro player after hitting a million balls (all self taught, with no new knowledge from internet, friends, etc)? Only on pure talent alone? I don't think so.
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What you have essentially said is that you cannot learn anything on your own and you can only learn what has been taught to you by somebody else. If you can't understand how ludicrous that statement is....actually I know you can see how silly that was if you think about it, you just didn't think about it before posting it.
You would be wrong on that one. Most great pool players are mostly or exclusively self taught. I agree that good coaching can definitely shorten a learning curve, but even that doesn't make a difference if the student isn't receptive to it, or if it isn't really good coaching (because bad advice would actually be a detriment that would cause a setback and would be worse than no advice at all).
My point is, if you do not have anyone pointing out your errors, you will have difficulty in improving. Example: Your head is not in line with the cue and your forearm/elbow is at an angle to the cue. If you play in this manner for years, you will not improve much. Why? Because of inconsistent stroke, the CB will not strike the OB consistently at the place that you want.
I do not have a coach. In the 1980s, I can only pot balls in snooker table. I do not have any idea on how to draw and follow, not to mention sidespin. Always marvelled at Steve Davis and Jimmy White on how they make the CB moves to the position they wanted.
There was no internet and hence knowledge were not easily obtained. These days, I have plentiful of pool knowledge, and most of them are from the internet. Of course, practice is essential in putting theory into reality. By no means is that an easy task.
For great pool players to be self taught cannot be true. Many must have lost plenty of games along the way and slowly, learn from their friends, their seniors, club members and even from their opponents. Tips like, look at the object ball last, put your dominant eye above the cue, what to expect when you do a sidespin, pot a frozen ball, do a firm bank shot as opposed to a soft bank shot etc. All of us learn along the way. Without these knowledge, it would take years if not eons to learn all the physics and mechanics in pool. Nobody likes to re-invent the wheel.
Just my thought.
I am more inclined into Science and I believe that the right way to learn and then practice, is to have proper organized drills and discipline practice to achieve excellence. Random aiming (called feel) is really not scientific and the end result of such practice is probably not as ideal.
I do not have a coach. In the 1980s, I can only pot balls in snooker table. I do not have any idea on how to draw and follow, not to mention sidespin. Always marvelled at Steve Davis and Jimmy White on how they make the CB moves to the position they wanted.
There was no internet and hence knowledge were not easily obtained. These days, I have plentiful of pool knowledge, and most of them are from the internet. Of course, practice is essential in putting theory into reality. By no means is that an easy task.
For great pool players to be self taught cannot be true. Many must have lost plenty of games along the way and slowly, learn from their friends, their seniors, club members and even from their opponents. Tips like, look at the object ball last, put your dominant eye above the cue, what to expect when you do a sidespin, pot a frozen ball, do a firm bank shot as opposed to a soft bank shot etc. All of us learn along the way. Without these knowledge, it would take years if not eons to learn all the physics and mechanics in pool. Nobody likes to re-invent the wheel.
Just my thought.
I am more inclined into Science and I believe that the right way to learn and then practice, is to have proper organized drills and discipline practice to achieve excellence. Random aiming (called feel) is really not scientific and the end result of such practice is probably not as ideal.
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Again, the ignorance is astounding here. We have disagreed before, and certainly do again on this subject. So...exactly what and how should they be practicing? Playing the ghost? random shooting? playing sets for money? None of those are disciplined practice...structured, organized, with ways to measure your success, and improvement. So you're also disagreeing with the successful training methods of every top professional instructor on the planet! Nice to know that you guys know so much more than everybody else! LOL
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
You are delusional. The best players all do one thing, they play pool (both competitively and through practice).That's it. Go hit up our country's best player and ask what he did as a kid. You really think he sat in a basement and discussed aiming systems and his stance? I'm sorry, but that's laughable.
You're asking how players measure improvement? I can't help but even wonder if I can take you seriously. Umm, they start winning and beating people. How do you measure it, with a calculator and protractor?
Look, beside the fact that we obviously disagree, you obviously can't be objective on this topic because you're selling something. I don't blame you, that's your job. I can be objective on this topic, but you can't. That's a truth you'll just have to deal with in your own personal way, but make no mistake, it is the truth. There's not much beyond that to discuss. If someone else who's not obviously biased by effects on their annual income wants to discuss this, I'd be more than happy to.
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The One Thing.
Thanks Freddie,
The very first thing a person has to have is the willingness to take a look at a different perspective and play it out until it doesn't work anymore. It took me a long time to find the perspective or that one thing that seemed to be the key to endless opportunities for me.
When you find that thing no matter what it is that works for you that is the same each and every time then you can create scenarios with base similarities that you can set up and practice. If you can divide the shots into say 4 key most important ones that you can learn to make with differing kinds of side spin say at 1 tip of side spin, then you have a base. Each of the 4 shots has distance you must measure with your eyes and have a standard for that measurement. Each of the 4 shots has differing needs in tips of side spin and differences in strokes you so you start with a base measured shot and you expand.
Then you expand it by using different strokes. These repeated shots create pictures of success in your mind that will apply to other shots where you expand the horizon of what you know and it grows out of organized thought and that is the first level where you have to formulate organized thought to your shot solutions. Some exceptional people with great depth perception abilities do this innately but a great deal of us don't see things so clearly or perhaps we have become older and our depth perception isn't as sharp. Organized thought helps those who lack instinct and intuition.
Over time you go over the organized thought process using "your formula" until one day you see the shot, know what to do and just do it because you've done it a few times and everything works as planned because you have already done your due diligence before as you practiced. The time spent in this can be remarkably shorter if you have a process of organized thought.
Finding the key to some of these pool skills is hard for many people as is evidenced in how many of them really never get to the highest levels of the game. In this day and time who has the time to hit balls until their hands bleed in the same manner as players did 50 yrs ago? Not many. So by using thoughtful techniques that allow you to shave off some of the mindless handsbleedingtime you can save yourself a great deal of time if you decide from the start that you're going to practice smart with the time you have to give it around your life.
There is no prescription that cuts off all of the repetition off and there shouldn't be.
Everyone should be able to get inside themselves, find their thing they need to look for, maybe get a suggestion from someone that has found their thing and come to same realizations that other great players came to when the light bulb went off and they branched their skill out into the great players they became.
A player with a passion can become a much better player than any person who is tied to a traditional job. That fact will always be. However it is possible that by practicing smart and attacking the area of side spin with a thoughtful process that you can make inroads in that area that allow your game to bloom and become much easier and more enjoyable that it ever was when you were searching for the one thing that keeps you grounded and lets you know yes I've seen this scenario before and I know exactly how to play it.
Basically people want you to make it automatic for them so they don't have to think about what needs to be done. The more I talk to people that I play One Pocket with the more that I find out they have little plans for these shots just like I use and this is what got them to the place they are to start with. They came to the table on a tough shot with a plan. If it didnt work the first time, the next time they changed the plan until the day when it did work and then they knew the shot.
The thoughtful eventually succeed with a plan where they lack an intuitive instinct for the situation.
Players have to come to the point where its important to them to get past their level to realize that thought is going to be required to do so. If they have an absence of the idea that brings them forward on their own, they have to be willing to take a new perspective that organizes an old skill that "is usually acquired with a ton more time," in order to conquer it without it taking 10yrs. Since everyone is an expert and everyone plays the level of the best player in their area there isn't much reason to push this sort of thing. It's rare I get asked or someone posts a thread up where I can talk about this. I don't push this stuff because pool is so subjective that what works for me I probably can't get someone else to take 30 minutes to look over what obviously worked for me, so I just make my stuff available. I would teach a class if people were interested and at the level where it would do them some good. The way I have it in my head is I was called to write down a pathway. I did that. Now I'm fixing up my house and helping people with their game as they ask.
A few years ago I got a chance to play some One Pocket with Scott Lee who told me I had some stroke issues. He was right and its amazing what happened to my game when I began working on it but I still slip a bit here and there but I make my shots. So I'm working to make something I do better that I've done pretty well for a long time but with an idea that something needs to be fixed, you can fix it. People seem to know everything and don't open their eyes and they stay right where they are, as long as they have the answers I'm happy for them.
Thanks Freddie,
The very first thing a person has to have is the willingness to take a look at a different perspective and play it out until it doesn't work anymore. It took me a long time to find the perspective or that one thing that seemed to be the key to endless opportunities for me.
When you find that thing no matter what it is that works for you that is the same each and every time then you can create scenarios with base similarities that you can set up and practice. If you can divide the shots into say 4 key most important ones that you can learn to make with differing kinds of side spin say at 1 tip of side spin, then you have a base. Each of the 4 shots has distance you must measure with your eyes and have a standard for that measurement. Each of the 4 shots has differing needs in tips of side spin and differences in strokes you so you start with a base measured shot and you expand.
Then you expand it by using different strokes. These repeated shots create pictures of success in your mind that will apply to other shots where you expand the horizon of what you know and it grows out of organized thought and that is the first level where you have to formulate organized thought to your shot solutions. Some exceptional people with great depth perception abilities do this innately but a great deal of us don't see things so clearly or perhaps we have become older and our depth perception isn't as sharp. Organized thought helps those who lack instinct and intuition.
Over time you go over the organized thought process using "your formula" until one day you see the shot, know what to do and just do it because you've done it a few times and everything works as planned because you have already done your due diligence before as you practiced. The time spent in this can be remarkably shorter if you have a process of organized thought.
Finding the key to some of these pool skills is hard for many people as is evidenced in how many of them really never get to the highest levels of the game. In this day and time who has the time to hit balls until their hands bleed in the same manner as players did 50 yrs ago? Not many. So by using thoughtful techniques that allow you to shave off some of the mindless handsbleedingtime you can save yourself a great deal of time if you decide from the start that you're going to practice smart with the time you have to give it around your life.
There is no prescription that cuts off all of the repetition off and there shouldn't be.
Everyone should be able to get inside themselves, find their thing they need to look for, maybe get a suggestion from someone that has found their thing and come to same realizations that other great players came to when the light bulb went off and they branched their skill out into the great players they became.
A player with a passion can become a much better player than any person who is tied to a traditional job. That fact will always be. However it is possible that by practicing smart and attacking the area of side spin with a thoughtful process that you can make inroads in that area that allow your game to bloom and become much easier and more enjoyable that it ever was when you were searching for the one thing that keeps you grounded and lets you know yes I've seen this scenario before and I know exactly how to play it.
Basically people want you to make it automatic for them so they don't have to think about what needs to be done. The more I talk to people that I play One Pocket with the more that I find out they have little plans for these shots just like I use and this is what got them to the place they are to start with. They came to the table on a tough shot with a plan. If it didnt work the first time, the next time they changed the plan until the day when it did work and then they knew the shot.
The thoughtful eventually succeed with a plan where they lack an intuitive instinct for the situation.
Players have to come to the point where its important to them to get past their level to realize that thought is going to be required to do so. If they have an absence of the idea that brings them forward on their own, they have to be willing to take a new perspective that organizes an old skill that "is usually acquired with a ton more time," in order to conquer it without it taking 10yrs. Since everyone is an expert and everyone plays the level of the best player in their area there isn't much reason to push this sort of thing. It's rare I get asked or someone posts a thread up where I can talk about this. I don't push this stuff because pool is so subjective that what works for me I probably can't get someone else to take 30 minutes to look over what obviously worked for me, so I just make my stuff available. I would teach a class if people were interested and at the level where it would do them some good. The way I have it in my head is I was called to write down a pathway. I did that. Now I'm fixing up my house and helping people with their game as they ask.
A few years ago I got a chance to play some One Pocket with Scott Lee who told me I had some stroke issues. He was right and its amazing what happened to my game when I began working on it but I still slip a bit here and there but I make my shots. So I'm working to make something I do better that I've done pretty well for a long time but with an idea that something needs to be fixed, you can fix it. People seem to know everything and don't open their eyes and they stay right where they are, as long as they have the answers I'm happy for them.
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336Robin, totally concur with your points.
Again, the ignorance is astounding here. We have disagreed before, and certainly do again on this subject. So...exactly what and how should they be practicing? Playing the ghost? random shooting? playing sets for money? None of those are disciplined practice...structured, organized, with ways to measure your success, and improvement. So you're also disagreeing with the successful training methods of every top professional instructor on the planet! Nice to know that you guys know so much more than everybody else! LOL
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
First off, tens of thousands of students lololol.
And how many of "your" students have BECOME pro players???
i don't move my front hand. I'm a BHE player, and have been longer than most (that would include my friend Colin Colenso and possibly my friend Joe Tucker). So I pivot after I'm down.
That would also mean that I make another adjustment (super secret that newby BHE users don't know), which also has nothing to do with the front hand. I teach doing this second adjustment before I go down in the stance or after I'm down. Both of these secondary adjustments would be part of my aiming method. One is a system; the other is just good old common sense.
Don't ask what exactly I do on this forum, please. Explaining on this board proven to be useless. Someone will "discover" it "all by themselves," and suddenly they're the originator. That's happened one too many times, so f*ck that. Plus I'm happy to admit that I'd rather be paid for my efforts!
Again, if anyone is interested, I suppose I'll put it down on a website, but it's so much easier to show. And when I show you (general), you'll see why I don't like using low squirt (LD) shafts.
Freddie <~~~ tired
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Those are excellent videos. And for those interested, many more videos and articles dealing with the topics in this thread can be found on the following resource pages:
aim compensation when using sidespin
back-hand (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE)
squirt, swerve, and throw effects
Enjoy,
Dave
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Hardly anyone replied to this thread answering my questions. Maybe only Freddie and a few.
I seriously would like to know how you do it. Might help me see which method is more logical and why.
Not asking about aiming system nor which side of object ball to aim for compensation, but rather on how to aim off (the action). Thanks in advance.
I seriously would like to know how you do it. Might help me see which method is more logical and why.
Not asking about aiming system nor which side of object ball to aim for compensation, but rather on how to aim off (the action). Thanks in advance.
As a general practice I never do anything wrong on purpose. "Just aim to overcut this" you sometimes hear. No thanks. I'd rather build the habit of aiming correctly. The cure for bad perception is improving ones perception, not accommodating its flaws. In my opinion.
KMRUNOUT
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KMRUNOUT
Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums