Justin Bergman--Mosconi Cup
- Thread starter barrymuch90
- Start date
Justin, thanks for coming on here from time to time, and giving us your honest opinion.
It speaks volumes as to your character. I now know why Mark always speaks so highly of you.
I've been a little critical towards your lack of presence at some of these events, but that's because I, like most of us, enjoy watching high level play, and when you don't show, the level of play, is just a little less.
Traveling a thousand miles for 1k, is not fruitful, I get it. It's catch-22 for sure.
If you happen to be on the team, shoot well, have fun, and bring OUR cup back were it belongs.:wink:
It speaks volumes as to your character. I now know why Mark always speaks so highly of you.
I've been a little critical towards your lack of presence at some of these events, but that's because I, like most of us, enjoy watching high level play, and when you don't show, the level of play, is just a little less.
Traveling a thousand miles for 1k, is not fruitful, I get it. It's catch-22 for sure.
If you happen to be on the team, shoot well, have fun, and bring OUR cup back were it belongs.:wink:
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I don`t want to question your analysis about the status quo of pool in the US, since I`m sure, that you have a very good insight into the whole issue.
But nevertheless, I´don`t agree with your conclusion, that a professional player is forced to stay at home, get a part time job etc.
In my eyes the situation you described in your post is the same as it was in Europe 20-30 years ago. A lot of talent around but no money in the game.
So most of the players who wanted to become professionals had to go abroad to make a living. Mika, Thorsten, Shaw, Darren...nearly all of the top women players...some of them even switched games, coming from snooker or english pool.
Now the situation has changed and the US aren`t the holy land of pool anymore.
So maybe it is time for the US players to make a move and leave. Go to Europe, go to China, try to qualify for the snooker tour, or switch to Chinese 8-Ball...there are several opportunities for a talented cueist.
Certainly this involves a lot of risks and costs for the players and for everyone who succeeds there will be a dozen who will fail terribly...but yeah...nothing can be created out of nothing.
Justin Bergman is top shelf. All of his comments were spot on. As were Jay H's.
Money has to be available somewhere. Either from pro type events or from local events.
Looking at the amateur/regional scene, even 10 years ago there were enough regional tournaments that a player like Justin could pick up 1-3K here and there, along with some good action from players that would get in the ring for the experience. These days there are fewer regional events and the money just isn't flowing into the game or up through the ranks. The tournaments are either handicapped or pay hundreds, not thousands, for the most part.
The 'pro' events are just as scarce. Turning stone just doesn't pay much outside of the top 3 spots, you are fighting to break even. The US Open went down to 128 taking out much of the dead money being contributed from regional champs. It's not like if you're a top 10 US Player you're going to make 70-80K on the 'tour'. I'd image that Justin, or Mike D, or Corey, or other players like that could probably make 10-30K in prize money which would amount to covering their expenses for the travel and entrees. Maybe if they played smaller tournaments as well, matched up, were in action 50 weeks a year, and had a few good finishes they could show a small profit. If they had an off year or had some tough draws they'd be breaking even.
So the question is would you go to a job every day for a year to not get paid? Well, they wouldn't either. Quite frankly it is almost like if they had pool tournaments with no entry fee, but no prize money. Like the Color of Money, 'let's just play for play'. Who would expect the US's best players to show up and play for fun? Well, our tournaments are essentially for fun, and anyone that doesn't get that hasn't tried building a bankroll and travelling around playing these events.
Sure there are some 19 year olds that are willing to do that to hopefully fight their way into the top 5 world elite players which offers a lot of glory and if you become greatest of all time level maybe even make some money. But when you've worked on your game for 10-20 years, are in the top 50 in the world but not the top 5, and have run the roads seriously for over a decade with nothing to show for it...well, at some point you have to recognize when you're in a bad game.
If this was just JB not stepping up and everyone else was, then we could question Justin as making excuses. But Oscar, Corey, Mike D, Dennis, Gabe Owen, Jeremy Jones, Danny Basavich, Mike Davis, and so on and so on and so on have quit running around chasing all of these events. Sure they still love the game and will play when they feel like it and the event makes sense. But they know the game is bad.
A hobby. Pool is a hell of a hobby. It's fun to play, and if you did devote your life to the game for 10-20 years and were one of the best in the country it's a hobby where you can have some fun, pop off an event here and there when you feel like it, make a tiny bit of money if you're selective about which tournaments to play, and take a shot at glory once in a while if the opportunity arises. That's the only move that makes sense.
Justin- I hope you get on the Mosconi Cup. I'm a fan and I would love for you to get a few more shots. In the meantime I'll see you around, maybe the Carom Room or the Open, maybe not
Money has to be available somewhere. Either from pro type events or from local events.
Looking at the amateur/regional scene, even 10 years ago there were enough regional tournaments that a player like Justin could pick up 1-3K here and there, along with some good action from players that would get in the ring for the experience. These days there are fewer regional events and the money just isn't flowing into the game or up through the ranks. The tournaments are either handicapped or pay hundreds, not thousands, for the most part.
The 'pro' events are just as scarce. Turning stone just doesn't pay much outside of the top 3 spots, you are fighting to break even. The US Open went down to 128 taking out much of the dead money being contributed from regional champs. It's not like if you're a top 10 US Player you're going to make 70-80K on the 'tour'. I'd image that Justin, or Mike D, or Corey, or other players like that could probably make 10-30K in prize money which would amount to covering their expenses for the travel and entrees. Maybe if they played smaller tournaments as well, matched up, were in action 50 weeks a year, and had a few good finishes they could show a small profit. If they had an off year or had some tough draws they'd be breaking even.
So the question is would you go to a job every day for a year to not get paid? Well, they wouldn't either. Quite frankly it is almost like if they had pool tournaments with no entry fee, but no prize money. Like the Color of Money, 'let's just play for play'. Who would expect the US's best players to show up and play for fun? Well, our tournaments are essentially for fun, and anyone that doesn't get that hasn't tried building a bankroll and travelling around playing these events.
Sure there are some 19 year olds that are willing to do that to hopefully fight their way into the top 5 world elite players which offers a lot of glory and if you become greatest of all time level maybe even make some money. But when you've worked on your game for 10-20 years, are in the top 50 in the world but not the top 5, and have run the roads seriously for over a decade with nothing to show for it...well, at some point you have to recognize when you're in a bad game.
If this was just JB not stepping up and everyone else was, then we could question Justin as making excuses. But Oscar, Corey, Mike D, Dennis, Gabe Owen, Jeremy Jones, Danny Basavich, Mike Davis, and so on and so on and so on have quit running around chasing all of these events. Sure they still love the game and will play when they feel like it and the event makes sense. But they know the game is bad.
A hobby. Pool is a hell of a hobby. It's fun to play, and if you did devote your life to the game for 10-20 years and were one of the best in the country it's a hobby where you can have some fun, pop off an event here and there when you feel like it, make a tiny bit of money if you're selective about which tournaments to play, and take a shot at glory once in a while if the opportunity arises. That's the only move that makes sense.
Justin- I hope you get on the Mosconi Cup. I'm a fan and I would love for you to get a few more shots. In the meantime I'll see you around, maybe the Carom Room or the Open, maybe not
Mosconi Cup doesn't matter any more.
The only people who even know it exists are the audience and some of the members here.
A grand total of maybe 10,000 people at the most.
A lot of the people who try to watch it because it's got good pool just turn it off after a few minutes because of all the screaming and noise in general.
Hard to enjoy an event like that.
The only people who even know it exists are the audience and some of the members here.
A grand total of maybe 10,000 people at the most.
A lot of the people who try to watch it because it's got good pool just turn it off after a few minutes because of all the screaming and noise in general.
Hard to enjoy an event like that.
Well it matters to some players for sure , I'd hate to see a player left off who has put in the time to gain those points it simply would not be fair , Justin has decided he is not interested in those points , sorry if it came down to him or a Donny Mills I'm rolling with Donny every day of the week
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My bankroll is rolling with Bergman every day of the week in that match
Justin Bergman should definitely be on the USA team this year. He showed he can handle the MC pressure as good as anyone. Apart from that, I feel USA has the best chance if Johan Ruijsink would select a team of young players that show a fearlessness similar to Justin's. So I think the likes of Oscar Dominguez and Billy Thorpe and possibly Josh Roberts would probably do equally well.
That's really too bad I would love to see more good players at tournaments. I wonder if these guys also don't play tournaments because the recognition might hurt their ability to make money gambling.
Most folks know I am a Skyler Woodward fan, and Justin too. Its just I have known Skyler since he was just a youngster.
I wonder how they would do AGAINST each other in various matches. They always seemed pretty even to me.
No disrespect to either player.
Ken
I wonder how they would do AGAINST each other in various matches. They always seemed pretty even to me.
No disrespect to either player.
Ken
Gambling !! Have you lost you're mind.
Good post Ken. Indeed they are close, I would hate to choose between them. I have my own thoughts as who would be best on the team but my vote does not count. I will be there in December cheering on my country, as far as the players go they are all heros of mine and close in ability.
He put the coach in an impossible position.
Yes, I know it's tough to make out chasing MC points. However, how in the world can the coach reward a player not willing to chase the points?!
If you do, you end up creating a situation where players just lay back on their rep instead of competing.
Frankly, I want the guy hungry enough to chase the points at all costs. I mean, if you're a pro pool player, unless you've been studying to be a brain surgeon in your off time, what else are you aspiring to?
Lou Figueroa
Yes, I know it's tough to make out chasing MC points. However, how in the world can the coach reward a player not willing to chase the points?!
If you do, you end up creating a situation where players just lay back on their rep instead of competing.
Frankly, I want the guy hungry enough to chase the points at all costs. I mean, if you're a pro pool player, unless you've been studying to be a brain surgeon in your off time, what else are you aspiring to?
Lou Figueroa
So I guess you like entitlements with out working for it , sorry I can't go along with that ,, he's done zero to warrant being on the team
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That's why they should make it more important to play the tournaments with points I mean somehow it's possible maybe cut it down to one a month with no two events conflicting with another and strictly take the top 4 no matter what. You should be rewarded for making the top 4 n if players knew they were gauraunteed a spot if they made too 4 I bet the chase would be better
I get all that but here is the part that I am not sure you are really properly taking into consideration. As I recall, you get $10,000 each just for showing up to the Mosconi cup and losing, $20,000 each if you can manage to pull out a win. For a guy like you that is almost guaranteed to be able to make the team if you attend a good portion of the points events, it would make good business sense to spend the extra money to go to some points events that you wouldn't have otherwise gone to because you are going to get it back and more when you get the $10,000 (and possibly $20,000) in the Mosconi Cup. That $10,000 Mosconi cup money more than offsets the expenses it would have cost to guarantee your spot on the team.
You could do big domestic points events for say $1,500 travel/playing expenses each event on average for the week long events (especially if you planned ahead so you got much better airfare and hotel rates), probably even less than that if you were frugal, and definitely less than that for the shorter four day type events. So you could have gone to at least four more domestic points events for say $6,000 max, and four more events would have almost certainly given you the points to guarantee your spot on the Mosconi Cup team which would have in turn guaranteed you at least a $10,000 payday, and possibly $20,000. Spending $6,000 to win $10,000 is good business sense. You wouldn't have even spent $6,000 on net though because probably worse case scenario you would have won at least half as much as you spent, so if you won $3,000 at those four additional four points events you are only $3,000 in the hole, and $3,000 to win a pretty much guaranteed $10,000 is a smart move and you would be $7,000 ahead of where you are now, plus you would have gotten the experience of playing in another four events, plus the experience of playing in the Mosconi Cup too, plus the satisfaction of representing your country, etc. Seems like a no brainer to me for a guy like you who has the skills to pretty much guarantee they will make the team if they will only go to a few more points events.
Let's make it even worse. Let's say you spent $3,000 each to go to two different points events on foreign soil ($6,000 total), and another $1,500 each to go to another five more domestic points events ($7,500 total) that you wouldn't have otherwise gone to, for a total of $13,500 in expenses to go to these additional seven foreign and domestic points events. Again, let's say you did pretty bad and only won half as much as your expenses so you are in the hole $6,750. With those event you would have earned the points to guarantee your spot on the team which is worth at least $10,000 minimum . Spending $6,750 to pretty much guarantee winning $10,000 is a pretty good move, especially when you consider all the experience you got with those additional seven events (including international experience), and considering if you pull off the win at the cup it will be worth another $10,000 extra on top of it.
Let's make it worse yet. Lets say you spend $20,000 to attend pretty much all of the foreign and domestic points events, and only won half what you spent (so you are $10,000 in the hole). You will be pretty much guaranteed to have earned enough points to be on the team which is worth $10,000 minimum. Even in this most awful scenario you have only broken even, and when you consider all the experience you gained by playing all these tournaments around the world and what it would probably do for your game you would have to consider it worth it. And if you happened to pull out a win at the cup you would be up $10,000.
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