IS IT BAD/WRONG TO SLIDE YOUR BRIDGE HAND???

[Poolmanis]

the discussion has been informative for me and i especially like nic barrows take on the issue
thanks to bob/matt/wobblystroke/brknrun/poolmanis and every one else for your comments

Nic is probably world most dedicated man about shot mechanics. No matter how good your technique is he probably can make it even better. IMO ofc

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I never paid any attention to whether a player slid his hand getting down on the shot or not.

I've now watched while paying attention to that. It seems to me that it is often just a natural result of getting down on the shot and stretching out the forearm while lowering the head. If the hand reaches the cloth before the head is in the final position, there pretty much has to be some slide forward just from the simple mechanics. The alternative would be to back your head/chest/shoulder away from the shot as the head comes down into position.

I'm not sure it is useful to teach one way or the other. Maybe this is one of those mechanical things that is useless to mention.

Thank you for observing and reporting. I agree it might be useless, but I've also seen a different type of "slider". To duplicate it, you'd get into the stance with a relaxed extended bridge arm (slight bend at the elbow) then reach for the CB by sliding and extending.

For me, I don't like the muscle tension of an "extra straight bridge arm" and a consequence is the stroke arm gets pulled a little too far forward.

I think a good exercise for students (regardless of bridge slide) is to set the bridge length in the air, then get down with a relaxed yet straight bridge arm. In many cases, their first attempts have large tip gaps--they stand too far from the action. Why is this? My theory--pros tend to get right in there, amateurs started their career getting in there but fouling the CB by hitting it with address or a practice stroke and after, they stand too far from the CB--like batters who stand too far from the strike zone because they don't want to be hit by pitches.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

most decent players will pick their shotline when standing, often taking a moment to look at the OB from the perspective of it being directly in front of the pocket..
Then focus upon the OB, then when they go down if they are able to not loose eye contact with the shotline , this might be preferable..

I find that personally I need to change my focus to interpret my distance to the CB and see if I am centered or if a spin is wanted that I am in good alignment with the CB itself.. how much top bottom , sidespin how hard, there is a lot to consider.. for a pro they would tie all that in more seemlessly than I can.

what that does is breaks the eye contact with the OB, then I find myself aiming from the shooting position.. try as I may I find it difficult to never break eye contact with the OB and as soon as I do , any "work" I've done when standing seems to be kind of erased.. then next I am reestablishing the sweet spot on the OB from the shooting position.

I'm usually conscious of where I put my right foot as this aligns my body to the shot and finding the correct place for my bridge hand may take more time to adjust than it would for a pro level player..

I'm more concerned about accuracy than the time I take to align, in snooker it seems pretty common for players to take more time for alignment than 8 or 9 ball. differnt atmosphere entirely.

maybe a bit more thought put into where the CB is going and the leave you will give the opponent if you miss etc..

In all games there is a basic sequence that is relatively unchanged..
what the pros seem to be good at is hitting the ball right and sinking it and positioning the CB more accurately. I think it all takes practice and time.. whether or not I "slide" or not, seems ( to me) less important than the alignment steps.

Perhaps if people have the habit of sliding their hands it can wear or dirty the cloth or in snooker it may change the nap pattern which has been aligned prior to play.,

dirtying the cloth is likely more of an issue for someone trying to make their own rather expensive cloth last 3 years with 20 friends eating around it and playing on it than than a pro who would likely have eaten his lunch, washed his hands, and maybe even had it changed before he graced the tables presence, as if they were rolling out a red carpet for him. in the real world maybe an owner would find that if every one has this practice of sliding their hands, well it might make the cloth look a bit like its being used like a wiper cloth..

on a table with woven cloth the nap isn't really an issue , but on a snooker table, that nap direction may have some importance.. the balls loose less speed going downtable than they do coming up towards the head of the table because the nap slows the ball more if it is running against the nap.. disturbing the nap by sliding may have some importance to a player that is serious enough.. I think thats the least of my worries on my level.

There are times when you want to watch the OB the whole way down into the stance, for example, when training to ensure you stand the right distance to come down without a big tip gap, as in this thread.

But since perception changes some from standing erect to lowering yourself into the stance, it's also okay to look away at the CB then reappraise the OB once you're firmly in your stance...

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Thank you for observing and reporting. I agree it might be useless, but I've also seen a different type of "slider". To duplicate it, you'd get into the stance with a relaxed extended bridge arm (slight bend at the elbow) then reach for the CB by sliding and extending.

For me, I don't like the muscle tension of an "extra straight bridge arm" and a consequence is the stroke arm gets pulled a little too far forward.

I think a good exercise for students (regardless of bridge slide) is to set the bridge length in the air, then get down with a relaxed yet straight bridge arm. In many cases, their first attempts have large tip gaps--they stand too far from the action. Why is this? My theory--pros tend to get right in there, amateurs started their career getting in there but fouling the CB by hitting it with address or a practice stroke and after, they stand too far from the CB--like batters who stand too far from the strike zone because they don't want to be hit by pitches.

Allison Fisher is a good example of a slider, but she gets into superb position, of course.

 

[BRKNRUN]

I was speaking of (and assume the OP instructor was also) a long distance slide.

I often see APA 3's and 4's stance with half-foot tip gaps or more, then move their stroke hands into the final address. It's more rare to see players slide the bridge hands in, but if you address the ball with a big gap and slide your own bridge hand in, you'll feel the cue tug your stroke hand forward, too . . . the bridge hand slide is less destructive than the stroke hand move, but isn't optimal.

I don't know, as you wrote, all the details from the OP instructor, but I've seen students improve in person when we get them to adjust via the feet instead of "sliding in".

I agree re: cookie cutter instruction. For example, things like "back foot has to be Angle X to the shot line for all players" makes no sense when thinking about body shapes for different players.

However, I imagine you'd agree with this statement? "Pros move and fidget far less after assuming the stance than amateurs, and tend to make small, incremental adjustments only." So I would say we're emphasizing fundamentals, not giving false cookie cutter advice.

I was not referencing long or short slide.....I was referencing a yes or no questioned option......

Depth perception plays a role in this as well....Since you can hardly ever get your eyes directly over the CB when placing the tip.....It is much more precise to slide up rather than plolp down right next to.....New players that start a larger distance from the CB than a seasoned player.....may have just have not developed (or measured out) their initial depth perception yet.

I also don't lock out my bridge arm in the air....It is uncomfortable....awkward....and frankly kind of dorky looking.....I also don't know anyone that pulls the grip/stroke arm forward when sliding the bridge forward into final stance.....

Truth be told.....My distance (from CB) is set by the cue, grip hand and back foot.......I take the grip hand in the general area of the cue I think I need depending on the shot......My bridge hand is typically starting from all the way down just above the joint of the cue (arm relaxed/bent) while standing.....Cue/body turns cue along shot line....As I bend down the arm extends and the bridge hand is sliding up the shaft (Down the shot line) and the cue is placed the bridge lands and slides and inch or two into the final stretched position......Off the rail the bridge arm may not even get fully extended....It really depends on the shot.

The cue (and tip) get final adjusted closer to the CB by the Grip/Stroke arm.....(not the bridge hand)....and the grip on the cue is slide forward (or back) accordingly...I really don't know anyone that uses the bridge hand to adjust distance or separation of tip and CB.....

But again....I don't concern myself with bridge hand placement....I let that happen naturally based from cue/shaft placement and is just there to be a stable support for a straight stroke....I am not a believer that the bridge determines the shaft placement....I believe that shaft/cue determines the bridge placement.....as well as my grip/stance/posture/alignment.......so I am probably not a good reference for any of this.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I was not referencing long or short slide.....I was referencing a yes or no questioned option......

Depth perception plays a role in this as well....Since you can hardly ever get your eyes directly over the CB when placing the tip.....It is much more precise to slide up rather than plolp down right next to.....New players that start a larger distance from the CB than a seasoned player.....may have just have not developed (or measured out) their initial depth perception yet.

I also don't lock out my bridge arm in the air....It is uncomfortable....awkward....and frankly kind of dorky looking.....I also don't know anyone that pulls the grip/stroke arm forward when sliding the bridge forward into final stance.....

Truth be told.....My distance (from CB) is set by the cue, grip hand and back foot.......I take the grip hand in the general area of the cue I think I need depending on the shot......My bridge hand is typically starting from all the way down just above the joint of the cue (arm relaxed/bent) while standing.....Cue/body turns cue along shot line....As I bend down the arm extends and the bridge hand is sliding up the shaft (Down the shot line) and the cue is placed the bridge lands and slides and inch or two into the final stretched position......Off the rail the bridge arm may not even get fully extended....It really depends on the shot.

The cue (and tip) get final adjusted closer to the CB by the Grip/Stroke arm.....(not the bridge hand)....and the grip on the cue is slide forward (or back) accordingly...I really don't know anyone that uses the bridge hand to adjust distance or separation of tip and CB.....

But again....I don't concern myself with bridge hand placement....I let that happen naturally based from cue/shaft placement and is just there to be a stable support for a straight stroke....I am not a believer that the bridge determines the shaft placement....I believe that shaft/cue determines the bridge placement.....as well as my grip/stance/posture/alignment.......so I am probably not a good reference for any of this.

I appreciate your input and feedback.

I'm not theorizing, I've addressed students who bridge hand slide and pull their arm out of position. But yes, you can use the bridge hand to place the cue or vice versa (as you do), based on personal visuals and proprioception.

As for CB distance, I hear what you're saying re: depth perception. However, you said it well, you set your CB distance by including your back foot. But so many players stand too far from the balls IMO. I see players with 17" bridge lengths who could stand some 7" shots for a while. Dr. Dave just commented on short and long bridges in a good new video . . .

Here are two ways to get people to stand close enough regardless of their chosen bridge length. 1) I can take some measurements then put a tape mark X inches from the table (which still doesn't stop sliding in or tip gap, etc.) or 2) since their left arm is always the same length every day of their adult lives, have them set bridge length while standing as suggested, then have them get down.

Based on 2) without ANY doubt, they will either foul the CB, get the right tip gap, or setup too far away based on their back foot distance.

You don't need this correction since you slide in and get right in there, and play well. But it's super cool to watch players cut more balls in, lunge and swerve less, simply by standing closer, with guidance.