Flakeandrun
Well-known member
and interesting 4am thoughts they are!
The Ten Greatest Players Of All Time
- Thread starter DrCue'sProtege
- Start date
Doc, at the time this was written I'd say pretty good list. Looking at it today, I believe it will change top to bottom, a complete work over before the end of this decade, to the point that Efren will no longer be number 1 and someone just may tie or pass Stricklands WC9 ball wins.
Our eyes today sees mainly 9 ball for the most part which will water down the greatest all around as we all get even older. Today's 9ball field is nasty, but, lacking in several other games. We need to hang on for dear life and remind the up N comers that there is more to pool than just rotation games...
Still, of the rotation monsters today, only a hand full are consistently winning at the other games. As much as this pains me to say
, if someone like Shaw could pull off a WC in 9ball and 8ball, along with his accomplishments already and the straight pool thing, he have to fly up the list..LOL - in years to come we'll all be pulling our hair out to manage some sort of list.
with. shoot!
I didn’t have the opportunity to see Jack Nicklaus compete in his youth but I have a feeling that he was ripped. I have a feeling that he was shredded. I have a feeling that Nicklaus probably ran five miles every day before lifting weights for an hour or three…then got right to work on his driving/putting/chipping for another ten or twelve hours. Woods was spectacular but even he couldn’t match Jack Nicklaus.
Oh. I gotta think that Pagulyan has to be included on any top ten list. I see a few voters had left him off of their top ten list. That’s a mistake.
It's a no-win situation to answer or even pose this question. Acknowledging drug users is acknowledging cheating. Listing the drug-free players only implicates those who used drugs through absence of their names from the list.
Something I rarely talk about….I don’t admire Greenleaf because he didn’t do it sober or straight.
Flakeandrun
Well-known member
how many of the old time players truly did? and what is considered sober or straight?
Just as applicable for snooker as pool.
PoolPlayerNNJ
Member
A client/friend of mine is a life-long friend of Jack's, and while I never saw him as a college student, young adult, my friend did. He was thin, had a thin waist, decent build, etc. -- but he was far from ripped, shredded, etc. He said he was never big into the weights. If you check out pictures of him in his 30's, while he may still have been considered "thin," he certainly didn't have a real strong athlete's body -- not like a swimmer, runner, tennis player, etc. That said, I was only making a comparison because Tiger in his prime was very much into weight lifting, strength, and the like, but he had to curtail that even before he started having injuries.
As far as who was better in their prime, I'll leave that to everyone's debate. LOL.
PoolPlayerNNJ
Member
When I look at "greatest of all time" -- yes, I look at the entire body of work, so yes, it's easier to do that after you've seen their prime, peak, etc. I would not argue with anyone's list that had Efren at # 1 and Mosconi at # 2, nor would I argue if someone had them reversed. I think some people don't give Mosconi enough credit, for several reasons. I only say this because I was very friendly with his son and learned a lot about the man, his career, etc. One, was because of gambling. If people who knew him well said he never played for money, I would believe them. If he did, I would say it was very, very rare. Two, his stroke was a relative secret until after the fact, and after he came back. After his stroke, by the time he was back to health, he had been out of action for quite some time, and he really needed to earn money. But, he didn't do it gambling. He started entering a lot of tournaments, local, nearby, nearby states, etc. He had not yet taken on a position with Brunswick (which I think he had in later years, after his retirement). I also don't know if he regained 100% of his form, capabilities, etc., after the stroke. Three, Mosconi was a family man. He didn't go out on the road, he looked to spend time at home, etc., and while he would travel for important tournaments, he always tried to spend as much time at home as possible.
I do remember one story his son told me. He was in junior high school at the time. Him and his friends were playing for nickels and dimes one day. His dad came home, saw them playing for money...and took the balls away from his son. I guess that tells you about what he thought about gambling.
I do remember one story his son told me. He was in junior high school at the time. Him and his friends were playing for nickels and dimes one day. His dad came home, saw them playing for money...and took the balls away from his son. I guess that tells you about what he thought about gambling.
All respect to de Oro, let's leave him off this list. Nobody thinks he's top 10 material.
Right on, Matt. This debate came two SVB world titles ago. SVB's resume clearly eclipses that of Ralf at this moment in time, just as I predicted that it would in my post.
Hmmm without drugs, 1.Heathbert Jones,2. Lenny Johnson 3 Clyde smith j/k.
Nicklaus was never ripped. I saw him in all his playing decades since the 60s. Portly in the 60s, then slimmer in the 70s, kept that through the 80s, but probably only mild exercise. I don't think he ever saw the inside of a gym. He didn't have to. He had a naturally powerful big swing, like John Daly in the later years. Jack's strength was just as much in his head as his physical status.
Mosconi joined the Brunswick stable in 1933, right after he played in his first world championship (finishing 5th). His stroke was in 1956.
PoolPlayerNNJ
Member
The SVB discussion is an interesting one. I watched him play live a few times. I am a fan. Once I saw him play Efren in NJ and it was great! His recent accomplishments certainly gives his name the right to not only be brought up, but in the discussion. As I said, I look at the entire body of experience -- accomplishments are part of it, dominance over the competition is another part of it. I don't know that I am done watching the entire body of experience. I don't know that SVB is done with what he's accomplished. I take nothing away from a World Championship, and if you get that in two different games, that is even more significant and adds more credibility. Again, while I take nothing away from that amazing accomplishment -- if a player were to win a WC in, let's say one pocket and nine ball -- does that alone put him in on the top ten of the greatest of all time? No, it doesn't. So for me I have to look at a lot more. How many WC's has he won? Mosconi, while all in straight pool, won what? 19 or 20? I know SVB has the two WPA WC's titles. However, he's what, 39 or 40? He ain't done yet! LOL. Side note, forget about WC's, how many tournaments did Minnesota Fats win? LOL.
PoolPlayerNNJ
Member
Yes, I kind of realized that. Early on though, wasn't he more "sponsored" by them, as opposed to much later on where he was consulting for them and being more of an ambassador? I do know they jumped on his bandwagon early though. Good point.
I agree with this post 100% (except I am a big SVB fan). People sometimes forget that Shane had to face, by far, the toughest competition of anyone mentioned. Early players had to beat a few Americans but Shane had to contend with international players. Europe and Asia are so loaded now that winning an international event has become a major accomplishment. He belongs.
I agree. I was at Greenleaf's HOF induction, and Irving Crane gave the induction speech --- and judging by Crane's speech, he wasn't too keen on Greenleaf either, and said he never saw him play sober.
Is it possible that could not play sober and needed the booze to calm his nerves and wound up a hopeless alcoholic?
The other thought is if he did not need the booze and could play sober would he have been an even better player?
An old timer that played at a high level during the Greenleaf years once told me that Greenleaf did not play much better then others at that time but he beat them because he was far better at safely play.