K66 Nose Height

av84fun

Banned
Hi,
We have a little discussion going on the main forum re: nose height. Brunswick's site says the standard is 64% of ball height = 1.44 in. but an "ask the expert" site says it's 63.5% or 1.428.

One poster says he has a k66 profile but his nose height is 1.5 which sounds like K55 to me.

What do you experts think?

Secondly, is there any standard as to the total height of the cushion at the point flush with the top rail wood? Mine, for example is 1/16 higher than the nose and the other poster's is 3/16 higher.

THANKS!
Jim
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
av84fun said:
Hi,
We have a little discussion going on the main forum re: nose height. Brunswick's site says the standard is 64% of ball height = 1.44 in. but an "ask the expert" site says it's 63.5% or 1.428.

One poster says he has a k66 profile but his nose height is 1.5 which sounds like K55 to me.

What do you experts think?

Secondly, is there any standard as to the total height of the cushion at the point flush with the top rail wood? Mine, for example is 1/16 higher than the nose and the other poster's is 3/16 higher.

THANKS!
Jim

All cushion nose height for 2 1/4" balls is for the most part, 1 7/16" from the bed of the table, give or take 1/64th of an inch up or down. It don't matter what the cushions are, in order to play right, that is the height needed. If your cushion height is just below the overall height of your rails, you must have an Olhausen table. Anyway, K55, K66, or Olhausen accufast, or any other kind of "pool" cushions...the playing height needs to be the same.

Glen
 

av84fun

Banned
realkingcobra said:
All cushion nose height for 2 1/4" balls is for the most part, 1 7/16" from the bed of the table, give or take 1/64th of an inch up or down. It don't matter what the cushions are, in order to play right, that is the height needed. If your cushion height is just below the overall height of your rails, you must have an Olhausen table. Anyway, K55, K66, or Olhausen accufast, or any other kind of "pool" cushions...the playing height needs to be the same.

Glen

THANKS Glen!

Yes, exactly...I do have an Olhausen. Any reason that Accu-Fast cushion noses are slightly lower? What is their strategy on that?

And finally, the cushions seem to "bow" downward so that the height at the top rail is higher than the nose. The other poster's cushions are 3/16 higher and mine are 1/16. Is there any standard or rule of thumb on that?

Regards,
Jim
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The difference is in the thickness of the sub-rails. Olhausen's rails are 1 1/2" thick, while just about every other kind of rail built is 1 3/4" thick. That is why you can't install K66 or K55 cushions on an Olhausen table, and you can't install accufast on rails that are designed for K66 or K55...without modifying the thickness of the rails first.

Glen
 

av84fun

Banned
realkingcobra said:
The difference is in the thickness of the sub-rails. Olhausen's rails are 1 1/2" thick, while just about every other kind of rail built is 1 3/4" thick. That is why you can't install K66 or K55 cushions on an Olhausen table, and you can't install accufast on rails that are designed for K66 or K55...without modifying the thickness of the rails first.

Glen

Hmmm. This is from the Olhausen website:

"For optimum performance Accu-Fast cushions comply to a true K-66 face profile, which has been the standard of the industry for nearly a century."

But I don't really care what profile is used. I was mostly just curious about the different nose heights and the fact that the top of the Accufast cushions are MUCH flatter than what is on the Diamond Pro which bows down noticeably.

THANKS!

Jim
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
av84fun said:
Hmmm. This is from the Olhausen website:

"For optimum performance Accu-Fast cushions comply to a true K-66 face profile, which has been the standard of the industry for nearly a century."

But I don't really care what profile is used. I was mostly just curious about the different nose heights and the fact that the top of the Accufast cushions are MUCH flatter than what is on the Diamond Pro which bows down noticeably.

THANKS!

Jim
Jim, as I tried to explain, Brunswick/Diamond, and most other rails are made 1 3/4" thick, whereas Olhausen's rails are 1 1/2" thick. When the cushion height is at 1 7/16" nose to slate, that is only a 1/16" of an inch below the thickness of the Olhausen rail, so the cushion is going to be more flat to the rail. On the Brunswick/Diamond tables the rails are actually 5/16" of an inch higher than the nose of the cushions, which gives the appearance of having the cushions at a downward angle, but correct for that kind of cushion rubber, being K55 and K66. The Olhausen accufast rubber is only K66 like, in that under the cushion and up to the nose of the cushion, it's like K66, but it's mounted on a different bevel on the sub-rail which is why it's NOT interchangeable with normal K66 cushions. The only way you could install accufast cushions on a Diamond table is if you ran the rails through a planner and lowered the thickness of the rail to 1 1/2" and re-beveled the sub-rail to fit the accufast cushions. If you wanted to install K66 or K55 cushions on an Olhausen table, you'd have to build up the bottom of the rails by 1/4" of an inch, re-bevel the sub-rails to the correct bevel that would fit the cushion rubber being attached. There is a major difference between the cushions, and all three are NOT interchangeable without some major rail changes.

Glen
 

av84fun

Banned
realkingcobra said:
Jim, as I tried to explain, Brunswick/Diamond, and most other rails are made 1 3/4" thick, whereas Olhausen's rails are 1 1/2" thick. When the cushion height is at 1 7/16" nose to slate, that is only a 1/16" of an inch below the thickness of the Olhausen rail, so the cushion is going to be more flat to the rail. On the Brunswick/Diamond tables the rails are actually 5/16" of an inch higher than the nose of the cushions, which gives the appearance of having the cushions at a downward angle, but correct for that kind of cushion rubber, being K55 and K66. The Olhausen accufast rubber is only K66 like, in that under the cushion and up to the nose of the cushion, it's like K66, but it's mounted on a different bevel on the sub-rail which is why it's NOT interchangeable with normal K66 cushions. The only way you could install accufast cushions on a Diamond table is if you ran the rails through a planner and lowered the thickness of the rail to 1 1/2" and re-beveled the sub-rail to fit the accufast cushions. If you wanted to install K66 or K55 cushions on an Olhausen table, you'd have to build up the bottom of the rails by 1/4" of an inch, re-bevel the sub-rails to the correct bevel that would fit the cushion rubber being attached. There is a major difference between the cushions, and all three are NOT interchangeable without some major rail changes.

Glen

WOW!! Thanks Glen. I do get it now.

Regards,
Jim
 

Dartman

Well-known member
Silver Member
av84fun said:
Hi,
We have a little discussion going on the main forum re: nose height. Brunswick's site says the standard is 64% of ball height = 1.44 in. but an "ask the expert" site says it's 63.5% or 1.428.
Jim

Using the % (63.5 - 65) formula will give an appropriate nose height based on the diameter of the ball.
Some folks use smaller diameter balls which would require a lower nose height.
 

swest

goldmember
Silver Member
Connelly rail height

Greetings,

It has been a while since I've posted, but you may recall that I've been in the process of getting an older Connelly 'Ultimate', back into playing condition. I had some questions about rehabilitating the rails, but ended up buying brand new rails from Connelly.

Well, they finally completed the rails and I picked them up yesterday.

The old rails were approximately 1-3/4" thick (subrail and rail cap), and used Artemis K-66 rubber.

The new rails are 1-1/2" thick, and use Championship 'Tour Edition' K-55 rubber.

And now the kicker: The nose height of the new rails is ~1-5/16"!

When I discovered this, I figured something must be wrong, so I put the rails back in their box and headed for the Connelly customer service and operations center here in Phoenix. I also took along one of the old rails.

I told Norm Saunders that, "there must be something wrong with these rails." (I think Norm is their head customer service guy - he's the person that originally took my order for the rails.) I showed him the comparison between the old rail and the new, and how the old rail had a nose height of 1-7/16", and the new rail had a hose height of ~1-5/16". He said that all their rails were 1-5/16", and that it was the BCA specified nose height. He pulled out a specification sheet to show me, but for some reason the nose height was not on that sheet. (Of course, I knew that the BCA spec. was 1-7/16", because I read this forum where all you smart guys write about such things :D)

We measured some of his other tables (they have a showroom at their customer service center), and sure enough - ~1-5/16". Norm said, "We use the same height as the Brunswicks." Oops! Not so. We measured a Brunswick, and whatd'ya know: 1-7/16".

Since they had a table set up for shooting there in their showroom, I decided to see how the rails performed. They seemed lively enough, and my super-high-english test failed to cause a ball to leave the table. In fact I was a little surprised at how hard I could hit a ball that I had cued with maximum topspin, and not have it so much as think about coming off the table...

Since I had, apparently, got what I paid for - i.e. these rails are the same rails that they put on all their tables - I figured I had no further basis for complaint, so I went ahead and brought them home. We applied the stain last night, and will put the topcoat on today. We had completed the refinishing of the rest of the table last week, so this is the final step before re-assembly, leveling, and recovering... realkingcobra needs to get himself out of the snowy north country and get down here where it's sunny and warm!

Anyway, needless to say, when I got home with the rails, I immediately went to the BCA and World Pool-Billiard Association sites and found the reference to the nose height. I called up Norm one more time and had him go to these websites to see for himself that these rails were not within the specifications of either the BCA or the WPA.

Norm was a little surprised. He told me that this subject has never come up. He told me that they had just sent 9 tables to Las Vegas for a BCA event, and the subject of rail height never came up. I asked him if there was any question in his mind as to whether those tables were using the same rails as the ones I had just received, and he said absolutely not. In fact, he said, "We get those tables back, and then re-sell them." He told me that his good friend Dave Pearson (the Speed Pool champ) plays on their tables, and the subject of rail height has never come up. He also told me that they (Connelly) were going to provide a table for some pro's demonstration video that was going to be filmed up in Scottsdale (today), and he was going to check that table, and one of the aforementioned BCA event tables for nose height, and he would get back to me.

Well, there it is. The entire pool-table-making-world makes rails with a nose height of 1-7/16", and Connelly makes rails with a nose height of ~1-5/16". What do you think about that?

- s.west
 

Ben at Muellers

Registered
realkingcobra said:
Jim, as I tried to explain, Brunswick/Diamond, and most other rails are made 1 3/4" thick, whereas Olhausen's rails are 1 1/2" thick. When the cushion height is at 1 7/16" nose to slate, that is only a 1/16" of an inch below the thickness of the Olhausen rail, so the cushion is going to be more flat to the rail. On the Brunswick/Diamond tables the rails are actually 5/16" of an inch higher than the nose of the cushions, which gives the appearance of having the cushions at a downward angle, but correct for that kind of cushion rubber, being K55 and K66. The Olhausen accufast rubber is only K66 like, in that under the cushion and up to the nose of the cushion, it's like K66, but it's mounted on a different bevel on the sub-rail which is why it's NOT interchangeable with normal K66 cushions. The only way you could install accufast cushions on a Diamond table is if you ran the rails through a planner and lowered the thickness of the rail to 1 1/2" and re-beveled the sub-rail to fit the accufast cushions. If you wanted to install K66 or K55 cushions on an Olhausen table, you'd have to build up the bottom of the rails by 1/4" of an inch, re-bevel the sub-rails to the correct bevel that would fit the cushion rubber being attached. There is a major difference between the cushions, and all three are NOT interchangeable without some major rail changes.

Glen

I would first like to say how much I appreciate Glens input on this site. I do however disagree with with his statement that Accu-Fast is only K66 like. I believe the attached photos will show that both Accu-Fast and Artemis #66 are both K-66 profile and can be interchanged without having to change the angle on the wood rail liner regardless of the thickness of the rail. The thing that is different between an 1 1/2" thick Olhausen rail and a 1 3/4" thick rail from say Brunswick or Diamond is the angle at which the wood rail liner is cut. In other words if you have a set of pool table rails that you want to re-rubber and the existing rail liner is cut for K-66 profile then you can use either rubber and still maintain the correct nose height without doing any other major work to the rail.

rubber1.JPG

rubber2.JPG

rubber3.JPG
 

Dead Crab

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why the canvas on the top of the Artemis (I assume that is the cushion top that is canvased)?

I also thought the grooved back was critical to design and part of the K-66 spec. Not so?
 

matcase

Blondie's #1 fan
Silver Member
The canvas bonded to the top of the cushion is supposed to make the rebound of the balls more accurate..it has something to do with the way the cloth moves over the top of the rubber when struck by the balls.
The channel is supposed to help cushions have consistant and proper speed. Accufast don't have the groove in the base because they claim that with their rubber compound it isn't necessary. I think accufasts play to springy, especially on firm shots.
 
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