double-the-distance aiming method (PIM: Pocket Intersection Method)

JoeW said:

Dave's presentation of the suggested guidelines with the addition of bridge length appears to summarize what Eric presented. Apparently he has added some additional information from other sources. The figure shown is not exatly what is described by Eric who appears to suggest beginning the aiming process by placing the cue tip one cue tip (whatever that means given various cue tip sizes) off center to in what would appear to be "outside" english.

Click to expand...

Thank you Joe. I appreciate the supportive words despite the fact that some of my joking about your recent aiming dilemma might have been perceived as disrespectful. Sorry about that.

BTW, the purpose for the diagram was just to show the effects of bridge length on any pivot, not any particular CTE pivot.

Regards,
Dave

JoeW said:

I suspect that this particular diagram may be the source of some confusion and disagreement given that Eric indicates that one begins the aiming process with the cue tip to the outside of the cb center aimed at the edge of the OB and then pivots. The beginning position of the cue tip changes the angles and resulting pivot substantially for many shots.

While I referred to this as "Outside English" I do not think it is perceived in this way. It is simply the beginning location for the cue tip.

Click to expand...

Joe,

Do you mean this diagram:


The cue in this diagram is aligned off center (in this case, more than 1 tip, but that is not the point). The point is: when you pivot from an off-center alignment to center-ball alignment (before shooting), the bridge length affects the final line of aim. Here, the red graphics indicates what happens after you pivot to center (but before shooting) with a long bridge length. The blue graphics indicates what happens after you pivot to center (but before shooting) with a short bridge length. Again, the point is: the bridge length affects the result of the pivot.

Regards,
Dave

SpiderWebComm said:

Someday in the future, when Hal passes and if I can get an ok from another guy... I'll light this board up with info. Until then, I'm not posting anything because I made promises not to.

Click to expand...

Spidey,

First you demand that I post a description of CTE, so you could explain what is wrong and what is missing, and answer any questions I might have. Now you write: "I'm not posting anything"

That's just not right. I put a lot of time and effort into my recent posts, and I was looking forward to your comments, and the comments from other CTE users out there. I hope some other CTE proponents will come forward if you won't.

Also, from what I know about Hal, he loves sharing information and knowledge, for free!!! Why not help him spread the word about his CTE system while he is still alive ... so more people can benefit. Isn't that a better way to honor him. Isn't that what Hal would want??? Why wait for him to die (that's a terrible thought). I don't understand.

In case you decide to help after all, here's the description you asked me to write:

quoted from dr_dave:
It sounds like we need to start with something. Here is the best I can do at this point, with the limited information available. This is based mostly on the the info posted here (including the video from eezbank), and from what I have learned from Hal, Stan, you, and past threads over the years.


For a “thick hit” (a small cut angle less than 15 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue 1 tip to the right of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length.
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line.

For a “half-ball hit” (close to 30 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue through the center of the CB and through the right edge of the OB.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line. The bridge length can be anything for this shot since there is no pivot.
3. Stroke perfectly straight along this center-to-edge line.

For a “thin cut” (more than 45 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue 1 tip to the left of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length.
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line.

If you follow the procedures above exactly, you will make shots within certain limited ranges of angles. However, you will miss most shots outside of these limited ranges, unless the OB is very close to the pocket and/or the pockets are huge (so significant "pocket cheating" is possible). Now, you can make the procedures work if you compensate a little as the cut angle changes. For example, you can adjust your bridge length (this has a huge effect on the results of the pivot step per Diagram 4 in my December ‘08 BD article, which is included below), modify the starting tip position a little, pivot slightly less or slightly more relative to the CB center, and/or you can shift your bridge hand slightly during the pivot (e.g., by pivoting with your hips or body) to create a different effective pivot point farther back or closer up from the bridge. You can also “air pivot” where you make subtle changes to all of this stuff intuitively as you come down into the shot (in which case you place your bridge and cue along the required line of aim of the shot with center-ball alignment, without using the separate tip-offset-and-pivot steps). Then, the system can work perfectly for any shot at the table, provided you can judge, perceive, and apply the subtle differences from one shot to another (in which case you don’t need an aiming system).


Hopefully, this is enough of a start to create some useful discussion. I look forward to input from you and others so we can refine this procedure to have it better represent what you think CTE is.

Thank you for your time,
Dave

PS: I put a lot of time into this, so please respond in a constructive way (even if critically constructive), so we can make some progress. In other words, please contribute some of your knowledge and information.

JoeW said:

I am not discounting the point that you are making about the effect of bridge length.

While I am not a CTE proponent and my understanding may be flawed I think that in the CTE approach the cue tip is moved a tip (more or less) to the outside of the CB for CTE aiming on a shot of less than 30 degrees. The pivot to center is from this position.

Unless I am mistaken, in your diagram the cue tip is on the wrong side of the ball. I believe the inside position (I will no longer call it “English) is used for thin cuts. I suspect that the prior disagreements may have been about the location of the tip. Perhaps, I need to put more effort into studying the system.

Click to expand...

I understand your point now. Thank you for the clarification. Again, the purpose of the diagram is not to illustrate how CTE works. I think the detailed step-by-step procedures are very clear, without need for diagrams. The diagram is only for illustrating how bridge length affects pivoting. Maybe I should have left the diagram out if it causes confusion.

FYI, if people are interested, I have several useful general diagrams (not specifically geared towards CTE) and general concepts concerning aiming systems in the following BD articles:

"Fundamentals - Part IV: bridge length" (December, 2008).
"Fundamentals - Part III: DAM aiming system" (November, 2008).
"Fundamentals - Part II: aiming" (October, 2008).

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave said:

Again, the purpose of the diagram is not to illustrate how CTE works.

Click to expand...

If we ever get some feedback concerning how "the real CTE" is supposed to work, I would be happy to prepare and post some diagrams. However, I'm too pissed at Spidey Dave right now to put any more time into to this apparently futile effort.

Regards,
Dave

woody_968 said:

I dont know why your pissed at Spider, you just posted your reply a little while ago and he hasnt been on since.

Click to expand...

I hadn't noticed if he was "on" or not. I guess you are right ... I should be patient and hope he or other CTE proponents still reply. I just got pissed when I saw his statement about "not posting anything." I hope he doesn't take any offense at any of my remarks. Spidey, if you do, I am sorry if I was impatient. I want the discussion to stay on topic instead of collapsing into uncivil "pissing wars" like it has so many times in the past.

I'll keep quoting my original description until the CTE folks help us improve it. Here it is again:

quoted from dr_dave:
It sounds like we need to start with something. Here is the best I can do at this point, with the limited information available. This is based mostly on the the info posted here (including the video from eezbank), and from what I have learned from Hal, Stan, you, and past threads over the years.


For a “thick hit” (a small cut angle less than 15 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue 1 tip to the right of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length.
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line.

For a “half-ball hit” (close to 30 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue through the center of the CB and through the right edge of the OB.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line. The bridge length can be anything for this shot since there is no pivot.
3. Stroke perfectly straight along this center-to-edge line.

For a “thin cut” (more than 45 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue 1 tip to the left of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length.
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line.

If you follow the procedures above exactly, you will make shots within certain limited ranges of angles. However, you will miss most shots outside of these limited ranges, unless the OB is very close to the pocket and/or the pockets are huge (so significant "pocket cheating" is possible). Now, you can make the procedures work if you compensate a little as the cut angle changes. For example, you can adjust your bridge length (this has a huge effect on the results of the pivot step, per Diagram 4 in my December ‘08 BD article), modify the starting tip position a little, pivot slightly less or slightly more relative to the CB center, and/or you can shift your bridge hand slightly during the pivot (e.g., by pivoting with your hips or body) to create a different effective pivot point farther back or closer up from the bridge. You can also “air pivot” where you make subtle changes to all of this stuff intuitively as you come down into the shot (in which case you place your bridge and cue along the required line of aim of the shot with center-ball alignment, without using the separate tip-offset-and-pivot steps). Then, the system can work perfectly for any shot at the table, provided you can judge, perceive, and apply the subtle differences from one shot to another (in which case you don’t need an aiming system).

Hopefully, this is enough of a start to create some useful discussion. I look forward to input from you and others so we can refine this procedure to have it better represent what you think CTE is.

Thank you for your time,
Dave

PS: I put a lot of time into this, so please respond in a constructive way (even if critically constructive), so we can make some progress. In other words, please contribute some of your knowledge and information.

Thank you for bumping this up again. I was disappointed it wasn't discussed, especially in light of the tremendous enthusiasm for Gene's thread. Thank you for your answers. I look forward to seeing what other people think, especially some of the instructors and players out there. I actually planned to start a new thread on this. If people don't respond here, maybe I will.

Thanks again,
Dave

Clark_the_Shark said:

dr_dave said:

Now for some serious questions for you and others:

Do you sight along the contact-point-to-contact-point line?
Or do you site through the center of the CB?
Do you change where you sight for different shots (e.g., thin cuts, vs. full hits)?
Do you sight along the cue when using English?

By "where do you sight," I mean: where do you align your "vision center," which may or may not be through your dominant eye? By "vision center," I mean the head alignment that allows you to see a center-ball straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB. For some people, this might be with the cue under their dominant eye. For others, it might be with the cue under their nose, or somewhere in between (or even outside of the eyes?).

I look forward to reading what different people think about sighting and the questions above. it doesn't seem like this has been discussed a lot (not lately anyway). Gene's PERFECT AIM system seems to be about sighting (and not aiming), and his thread is ginormous, but there doesn't seem to be any discussion or debate in the thread concerning "best practices" and/or "good options" for sighting different types of shots. An obvious option is to always align your "vision center" with the center of the CB, regardless of the type of shot, but it doesn't seem like all people agree with this. What do you and others think about this? I hope Gene will get involved with some of these discussions since he seems to have strong opinions and good ideas about sighting.

Click to expand...

I feel like this post from earlier has been overlooked in all this (very aggravating) CTE talk..


So onto your questions...
1) I use contact point to contact point for shots that are not very clear to see, such as backwards cuts, or cuts where I cannot see the target pocket and the OB in the same line of vision.

2) I use aiming through the center of the cue ball for 0 degree cuts to just about 1/2 ball.

3) Answered in above 2 answers. Also, for fairly thin to extremely thin cuts, I use contact point to contact point, or look at the edge of the cue ball and try to line that up with the edge of the OB.

4) I view the shot directly through my eyes to the OB, REGARDLESS if there is English on the ball. This is the most complicated step to explain as I have not really analyzed this as much. Because I use some combination of BHE, or Swiping on the last stroke, (2 DIFFERENT METHODS), or just getting down into the shot with the English already in place (already pivoted about the pivot point). But my aiming line is ALWAYS straight from my eyes to the CB to the OB, one straight line. I DO NOT use parallel shift methods for applying English, which is important for my next point.

So... what #4 really means is that my stroke is not always straight through, but my eyesight is. The only time it is, is when the shot needs no English. As soon as English is applied, the cue is pivoted about the pivot point but the eyes stay at the aim point. Now, just to be clear... my aim point DOES change depending on the "type" of English applied, either thicker/thinner for inside English or outside English depending on the speed & squerve.

Click to expand...

Joe,

When I follow the first procedure exactly for a wide range of angles between straight-in and a half-ball hit, at various distances from and angles to the pocket, I miss most of the shots, except for the ones very close to the specific angle the procedures gets me to.

It sounds like CTE might be a good system for you. It isn't for me, as described so far anyway.

Hopefully, others can share their experience with the procedures. As you know, a sample size of 2 is not very useful.

Regards,
Dave

JoeW said:

I just experimented with the CTE system for cuts less than 30 degrees and found that I made 10/11 shots from different places and distances on my 9' table with 4.5" pockets. It is very similar to my center to center aiming and they may be related. More likely, my prior experience with center to center has helped me to "see" CTE and then pivot as needed. It seemed to require less concentration -- Hmmm

While the approach was amazingly successful there is an element that I did not like. It seems that my brain very quickly accomdated to it and preferred to shoot in this way. After 11 shots a part of me did not want to switch back to my usual way. Obviously this will require much more study especially for the application of english, etc.

Click to expand...

SpiderWebComm said:

The bridgehand is almost always the same, except when the OB gets closer to the CB.

Click to expand...

Could you explain how the procedure is different when the balls are closer? And do the bridge differences apply the same for "thin," "thick," and "half-ball" hits?

Also, please provide your promised critique of the draft procedure below, so we will know what some of the missing steps are.

Thanks,
Dave

quoted from dr_dave:
It sounds like we need to start with something. Here is the best I can do at this point, with the limited information available. This is based mostly on the the info posted here (including the video from eezbank), and from what I have learned from Hal, Stan, you, and past threads over the years.


For a “thick hit” (a small cut angle less than 15 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue 1 tip to the right of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length.
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line.

For a “half-ball hit” (close to 30 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue through the center of the CB and through the right edge of the OB.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line. The bridge length can be anything for this shot since there is no pivot.
3. Stroke perfectly straight along this center-to-edge line.

For a “thin cut” (more than 45 degrees) to the left:

1. Align the cue 1 tip to the left of the CB center through the right edge of the OB.
2. Place the bridge hand down with the cue exactly along this line, using a 10-12 inch bridge length.
3. Pivot the cue (without shifting the bridge at all, so the cue rotates about the fixed bridge-pivot point), until the cue is pointed directly through the center of the CB.
4. Stroke perfectly straight along this line.

If you follow the procedures above exactly, you will make shots within certain limited ranges of angles. However, you will miss most shots outside of these limited ranges, unless the OB is very close to the pocket and/or the pockets are huge (so significant "pocket cheating" is possible). Now, you can make the procedures work if you compensate a little as the cut angle changes. For example, you can adjust your bridge length (this has a huge effect on the results of the pivot step, per Diagram 4 in my December ‘08 BD article), modify the starting tip position a little, pivot slightly less or slightly more relative to the CB center, and/or you can shift your bridge hand slightly during the pivot (e.g., by pivoting with your hips or body) to create a different effective pivot point farther back or closer up from the bridge. You can also “air pivot” where you make subtle changes to all of this stuff intuitively as you come down into the shot (in which case you place your bridge and cue along the required line of aim of the shot with center-ball alignment, without using the separate tip-offset-and-pivot steps). Then, the system can work perfectly for any shot at the table, provided you can judge, perceive, and apply the subtle differences from one shot to another (in which case you don’t need an aiming system).

Hopefully, this is enough of a start to create some useful discussion. I look forward to input from you and others so we can refine this procedure to have it better represent what you think CTE is.

Thank you for your time,
Dave

PS: I put a lot of time into this, so please respond in a constructive way (even if critically constructive), so we can make some progress. In other words, please contribute some of your knowledge and information.[/QUOTE]