i am a little confused.. ( cueball controll)

dont think you's have to cheat the pocket. cheat the aim, rights & left creat throw.

Slh said:

Today i have seen this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1YW5h-P0dU#movie_player
this guy at 2:16 say if you shoot that low left the cueball took a different angle because you put a left side spin. I know with that type of shoot the cueball should draw back on a straight line ( if you hit the 7 ball dead center into the heart of the pocket) and take the side spin only after a rail contact. Am i wrong? I don't think with that shoot you can change the angle, i think he cheated the pocket slightly to the right due the deflaction. He uses a not leveled stroke too.

Click to expand...

What he said and did was correct.

My experience tell me that to execute that shot I have always needed to elevate my cue stick slightly. I do this to gently elevate the cue ball off the table slightly and when it comes back down to the cloth it will advance in the direction of the spin.

If the cue ball is struck at seven o'clock the axis of the cue ball will be like from eleven o'clock to five o'clock so the cue ball will move toward seven o'clock. Knowing the technique to this shot will get you out of many jams. I have made the cue ball go 90 degrees to the side at times.

You may be correct, although with a slightly elevated cue, you would be applying some amall amount of swerve as the ball is moving backward. Think how a masse' shot works to change the path of the cue ball. But I suspect the majority of what you are seeing in more likely a very slight off center hit or cheating the pocket.

Steve

Beware_of_Dawg said:

dont think you's have to cheat the pocket. cheat the aim, rights & left creat throw.

Click to expand...

If you are applying right spin, the cue ball would swerve slightly to the left, and cause the cue ball to return to the left, wouldn't it?

Steve

Slh said:

he is not talking about elevating the cue.

Click to expand...

No, but on this particular shot, there is no way to shoot it without having some cue elevation. It's impossible to shoot a draw shot at that part of the table and maintain a perfectly level cue due to the height of the rail.

Steve

pooltchr said:

No, but on this particular shot, there is no way to shoot it without having some cue elevation. It's impossible to shoot a draw shot at that part of the table and maintain a perfectly level cue due to the height of the rail.

Steve

Click to expand...

Correct, a slight elevation on this type of shot goes a long way to change the angle of the cue ball.

side pocket to side pocket cb control

to the original poster: doing is knowing. Try it with exact center pocket and full smooth stroke using bottom left, and try it with a little cheating of the pocket... (fwiw, I believe the guy)

expanding on the subject rather than derailing:
Sometime between 1991 and 1994 there was an article in Billiards Digest magazine with this shot (but with a slightly longer distance between cb and ob).

Using a combination of cheating the pocket, using various strokes, and the whole range of the clock, you can get anywhere on the table with that straight in, side- pocket- to- side- pocket shot. (A friend and I practice this- making the ob in the same pocket, but having the cb hit the rail after contact, progressively around the entire table at half diamond increments- from the same set up.)

Does anyone here have a link or a copy of that article? Please please share if you do...

pooltchr said:

If you are applying right spin, the cue ball would swerve slightly to the left, and cause the cue ball to return to the left, wouldn't it?

Steve

Click to expand...

yes, I think you are right. My brain might not be thinking correctly about it. I do know on a straight in shot I can make the ball come back slightly left or right... but I think your right, that is a result of cheating the pocket rather than the aim.

dabarbr said:

What he said and did was correct.

My experience tell me that to execute that shot I have always needed to elevate my cue stick slightly. I do this to gently elevate the cue ball off the table slightly and when it comes back down to the cloth it will advance in the direction of the spin.

If the cue ball is struck at seven o'clock the axis of the cue ball will be like from eleven o'clock to five o'clock so the cue ball will move toward seven o'clock. Knowing the technique to this shot will get you out of many jams. I have made the cue ball go 90 degrees to the side at times.

Click to expand...

Exactly. I think of it as a delayed masse; the ball goes relatively straight until it hits something. Here's one situation where the shot comes in handy.

CueTable Help

This one is more difficult (requires BIG elevation), but a it's helluva lot of fun to shoot. :grin:

CueTable Help

Aaron

I bet we have all seen this happen. If you hit a straight in shot with bottom right or left, and hit is properly, you have seen your cue ball stop dead, but spin like a top in place. The bottom causes the stop, and the side causes the spin.

Steve

dabarbr said:

Correct, a slight elevation on this type of shot goes a long way to change the angle of the cue ball.

Click to expand...

Frank's correct. The effect can be seen more distinctly with follow. For example, set up a close straight in shot (cueball within a foot of OB) elevate the cue and use hard high right, the cue ball will travel to the right.

It's not caused by swerve. What's happening is the throw effect. If the object ball throws left, the cue ball throws right.

This is not something used often at all, but it is a way of getting angle without necessarily touching the rail.

Chris

Beware_of_Dawg said:

yes, I think you are right. My brain might not be thinking correctly about it. I do know on a straight in shot I can make the ball come back slightly left or right... but I think your right, that is a result of cheating the pocket rather than the aim.

Click to expand...

I believe it would deflect to the left and return to the right, the amount dependent on speed.

I still think that whoever wrote that article from way back when must be an AZBer now... If not, somebody else should remember it, or maybe even have it.

I did not hallucinate this article.

unbellievable

Don't know who made that intructional video but I sugest you delete it and erase it from your hard drive.

Slh said:

Today i have seen this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1YW5h-P0dU#movie_player
this guy at 2:16 say if you shoot that low left the cueball took a different angle because you put a left side spin. I know with that type of shoot the cueball should draw back on a straight line ( if you hit the 7 ball dead center into the heart of the pocket) and take the side spin only after a rail contact. Am i wrong? I don't think with that shoot you can change the angle, i think he cheated the pocket slightly to the right due the deflaction. He uses a not leveled stroke too.

Click to expand...

No, if you shoot that shot, the one at 2:16, with low left it will draw at an angle because you're not shooting straight at it. Because of the left spin on the cue ball you need to adjust the thickness of the hit so it doesn't throw it off course. If you were to hit it straight on with low left it would throw the object ball to the right. So, with this shot, you aim a touch to the right of the object ball so the throw will send it straight into the pocket, which in turn will make the cue ball draw back at a slight angle instead of straight back. And no, you don't have to jack up your cue on that shot. Someone said it's impossible to shoot from there with a level cue. I'm not sure what exactly they meant by that but you definitely don't need to jack up on it at all. The only angle to the cue will be from the height of the rail, which is true on most shots. This one is simple and you shouldn't have a problem with it if you can draw and can make balls with spin on the cue ball.
MULLY

Slh said:

i think you are right but the cueball should draw back i think..

Click to expand...

The cue ball will only drawback if their is sufficient back spin on it to bring it back. What the original poster is talking about is actually the back spin dying before it hits the ball and before it goes into its natural roll. That's how you make long stop shots. You have to feel how long it will spin backwards, slide, and then roll forward and then you'll need to hit it so the cue ball hits the object ball during the slide.
MULLY

As an instructional video it's not so hot. He keeps advising short and jabby strokes as if that were key to getting the action you want. That's kind of a red flag. And he elevates more than necessary and doesn't have a very textbook stance and bridge.

All that being said, he's not necessarily wrong. With a very level cue, and perfect accuracy... a low left shot goes straight back the way a low-center shot would. But when you elevate the cue a bit, it really does send the ball back 'diagonal' a bit. We all have a hair of elevation, and you can have more... either intentionally or accidentally (like this guy in the video).

I remember john schmidt having to do a shot in a 9b match (forget the situation, it's on one of the bclub youtube videos) where he was too straight on a ball and had to get the CB to travel quite a bit, and used the little-known elevation trick to eke out just enough extra angle on his draw shot. The commentator knew exactly what he was seeing and explained it, and that's how I learned about it.

PS: in this case it's nothing to do with deflection or swerve. If the ball deflects it would go back at an angle opposite to the english you used. The ball's not curving in a quick mini-masse because the shot is sliding a very short distance and is being struck quite fast/hard. There's no time for it to curve.

Good post by slh. I think this is one of those subtle pool things that more people should know.