Who would you bet the Cheese on? Jose vs. Efren!!

Jose and Efren

Jose once told me that if he could play Efren a 30-hour session straight through, that he was the favorite. This statement seems feasible to me because of Jose's background in playing long sessions over the years. At that point, in my opinion, you are not defining who plays better pool, you are defining who has more endurance. The only true way to find out would really be for them to play something like eight hours a day every day for two weeks, and then tally the score at the end. Playing ten or fifteen ahead at that level really doesn't prove anything as to who the better player is.

Chuck Raulston
 
I've seen both players play and know Efren.... I'd have to say it would greatly depend on what the races are to and whether Parica was on. I watched Parica play a perfect race to nine in nineball. Only safetying in one the eighth rack and I've seen Efren give up amazing spots to top notch players and still clobber them...I am an Efren fan, always have been and probably will still be even if I'm beating him, and while Parica is a top player and no one can doubt his skill, the simple fact that he seems to have something to prove even giving him being even with efren, Which I don't believe, he would have a mental disadvantage right off the bat.

And anyone who has attained a high level of play knows that the difference between top players is all mental....
 
Chuck Raulston said:
Jose once told me that if he could play Efren a 30-hour session straight through, that he was the favorite. This statement seems feasible to me because of Jose's background in playing long sessions over the years. At that point, in my opinion, you are not defining who plays better pool, you are defining who has more endurance. The only true way to find out would really be for them to play something like eight hours a day every day for two weeks, and then tally the score at the end. Playing ten or fifteen ahead at that level really doesn't prove anything as to who the better player is.

Chuck Raulston

nice post, this is what i was saying too. it could go either way, but play a long set strait through and i personally think parica would take it, and for whatever reason, people jumped all over me for saying that.... even though i aslo said efren was the slight overall favorite. people don't like to hear that efren could possibly be beaten for some reason, even though its almost a fact that he can.

i know he did come through big in hing kong, so perhaps this is a bad example, but earl was 20 games ahead of him. i know one thing for a fact, if efren played as good as people on here think and say he does (and is so far ahead of everybody as people say in cueball movement, kicking etc), nobody would ever get 20 games ahead of him, how could they, it would be impossible??? and how would people defend his winning this set by only 2 or 3 games????? if he is that good, wouldn't he win it by much more? this is what i've said all along: efren is the best overall player, maybe even the all time best, but other great players play much closer to him than most people think.
 
Enzo,

I would like to compare the matchup to Tiger Woods vs Phil Mickelson.
Can Tiger be beaten? Yes , he doesn't win every tournament that he enters.
Why not? He is widely regarded as the best by far, maybe the best golfer ever. Is he way better than Phil, nope...
Does that reduce his level of greatness? nope...
His skill level (what he can do with a golf ball, his creativity, his mental toughness, his course management) like Efren's skill level ( the way he moves the cueball around, his kicking ability, his pocketing, his mental toughness) is just plain above everybody else.
A good question to ask would be: If Tiger or Efren was playing at the top of his game( top gear ! lights out! ), Could they be beaten? The concensus would be no way!
Your statement about if Efren is so great how come Earl could get 20 games ahead? Holds little weight. In the WGC matchplay event, Tiger lost to Chad Campbell. How could that happen? Is Chad Campbell now the greatest golfer? nope...
The nature of both games pool and golf is such that no one can win every time even if they are the best. There are too many outside factors- Luck ( a bad roll, ball skids, putt gets detoured by a stray spike mark, wind kicks up just as you hit, balls don't fall on the break), playing conditions, etc- that will influence any one particular match or game.
But year after year, result after result, highlight reel after highlight reel, win after win, these thing add up to Efren and Tiger being superior to Jose and Phil period, end quote.

Respectfully disagreeing with you, Enzo

Rob
ps. Jessica Alba is an 8 ball over Salma (IMO)
 
sniper said:
I don't think Jose would have the edge on Efren playing rotation, Efren is widely reguarded as being one of if not the best rotation player in the world. I would put my cash down on Efren in rotation. Playing eight ball, nine ball, and straight pool I don't think I would bet on either player because their quite evenly matched. Playing one pocket I would put the cash down on Efren, would anyone really bet against Efren playing someone even in one pocket? I hope not.

Efren Reyes told me in virginia that Leonardo Andam is the best rotation player in the world. we were watching Andam play Corey at the time and Efren was laughing and when i asked why. He said corey had absolutely no chance. Andam beat him 3/1 in a race to 3.............and i think the best gambler of them all is Roldolpho Luat. Bustamante told me that Luat had just beat Efren and his backers out of 25 large in the philippines. So who is the best?????????????? mike
 
cueball1950 said:
.............and i think the best gambler of them all is Roldolpho Luat. Bustamante told me that Luat had just beat Efren and his backers out of 25 large in the philippines. So who is the best?????????????? mike
Having taken a beating at his hands with a decent amount of weight, I would not be suprised if this were accurate.:(
 
cuesrus said:
Enzo,

I would like to compare the matchup to Tiger Woods vs Phil Mickelson.
Can Tiger be beaten? Yes , he doesn't win every tournament that he enters.
Why not? He is widely regarded as the best by far, maybe the best golfer ever. Is he way better than Phil, nope...
Does that reduce his level of greatness? nope...
His skill level (what he can do with a golf ball, his creativity, his mental toughness, his course management) like Efren's skill level ( the way he moves the cueball around, his kicking ability, his pocketing, his mental toughness) is just plain above everybody else.
A good question to ask would be: If Tiger or Efren was playing at the top of his game( top gear ! lights out! ), Could they be beaten? The concensus would be no way!
Your statement about if Efren is so great how come Earl could get 20 games ahead? Holds little weight. In the WGC matchplay event, Tiger lost to Chad Campbell. How could that happen? Is Chad Campbell now the greatest golfer? nope...
The nature of both games pool and golf is such that no one can win every time even if they are the best. There are too many outside factors- Luck ( a bad roll, ball skids, putt gets detoured by a stray spike mark, wind kicks up just as you hit, balls don't fall on the break), playing conditions, etc- that will influence any one particular match or game.
But year after year, result after result, highlight reel after highlight reel, win after win, these thing add up to Efren and Tiger being superior to Jose and Phil period, end quote.

Respectfully disagreeing with you, Enzo

Rob
ps. Jessica Alba is an 8 ball over Salma (IMO)
Very well said. I also believe Salma now needs at least the 7 ball !!!!!!!!!!
 
CrownCityCorey said:
It is more like the opposite. Short races, Efren, 12+ hours of play straight, Jose all the way!

Corey is right! Efren is my hero! I consider Jose a friend! They're both great players. In a tournament or short gambling sessions I feel Efren has a little the best of it. Once it goes beyond 12 hours there's not a better player alive than Jose! He also comes from way behind better than anyone else I've ever known!
About 20 years ago, shortly after Jose came to the US for the first time, we hooked up and became friends. It was about this time that I had part of Jose's action playing Danny Jones. Danny was a little past his prime, but, at one time he was just about unbeatable! Jose gave him 10 games on the wire, and the wild 7 in a race to 30 games. To make matters worse, Danny felt pretty good about the spot, which pumped him up and he strung a few racks from the get go. In fact, with the spot, he had Jose 17-0, going to 30, but it wasn't enough! Jose has more heart than any pool player I've ever seen and never gives up! I made a sweat bet with Cornbread Red not long after that, taking Jose against Terry Bell (founder of the APA, the biggest "score" ever in pool). Jose had been up real late gambling and had about 1 hours sleep before the match. He'd have been better off not going to bed, because it just got him out of stroke before his match. Terry got off to an early lead as I sat down next to Cornbread, who was sweating the match. When it was 8-5 Cornbread said, "looks like the Filipino ain't going to get there today"! I said, you can't count him out til it's over! it got to 9-6, Terry's favor racing to 11. Cornbread again said "he was up all night gambling. Busted 3 or 4 guys, but he's plum wore out now"! I told Cornbread that I had a lot of confidence in Jose's ability to come from behind. He asked if I were "$50 confident"? I said sure, I'll take Jose from here for $50, what the hell? My Road partner Gary and I had a pretty good run going and I just felt good about Jose's game. Jose ran 5 racks from there, never letting Terry back to the table, and went on to win the Nine Ball Division and my partner Gary Spaeth won the Bank Pool Division of the Clyde Childress Memorial Tournament, 1986, I believe. When Jose put the 5 pack on Terry, Cornbread was beside himself! Believe me, losing $50 meant nothing to Cornbread, even if it was his last $50, but losing in that way had him baffled! He asked me how I could make such a bad bet? I laughed and said it obviously wasn't all that bad! Then a week later at another tournament I watched Jose fight back from the same 9-6 deficit at Bob Opsauls tournament in Columbia SC, against Dobrizinski. Another memorable tourney!
As big of a fan of Efren's as I am, I don't think people here in the US realize how great a player Jose is/was, or give him the recognition he deserves! He was the super star that Efren looked up to as a child, but that was before it became as popular as it is now. Today Efren "Bata" Reyes is a household word in the Philippines. People who have no interest in or knowlege of pool know who "Bata" is! He's a national hero! Just don't count Jose out too quickly! Back in 1985 when the Filipino's first came to the US to play pool, I made a pact with myself, to NEVER bet against a Filipino! I've kept that pact all these years and plan to continue, because I feel that most times if you do bet against a Filipino pool player, odds are, you have the worse of it! Been watching it too long not to recognize a trend here!

just more hot air!

Sherm
 
half joking statement.....

all you people that just said that efren could actually be beat in some game (by luat, parica, andam or whoever)

DUCK! because there is a huge load of crap coming your way!
 
cueball1950 said:
Bustamante told me that Luat had just beat Efren and his backers out of 25 large in the philippines. So who is the best?????????????? mike

to put this another way, if you need the 6 out and the breaks from efren, what do you think you need from luat (DONT LOOK UNTIL YOU DECIDE ON AN ANSWER)?




you would need the 6 out and the breaks from luat, to me that is a fact. if you play efren with the 6 out and the breaks and are breaking even over a long period of time, try taking less from luat, it would be lopsided in luats favor.
 
For the last few years people say that Antonio Lining is the best money player in the world. I asked why he doesn't seem to do well in tournaments, and my friend (who knows all of the top Filipinos very well) told me that Lining just doesn't have a gear for tournaments, but for money he plays so well it's ridiculous.

Years ago before Efren became famous, Parica was the pool star in the Phillipines. When Efren came about, he became the pool star, but turned it into super-stardom. He is the most famous name in the Phillipines. For a country that is so crazy about pool, you'd think EVERYONE over there would have a reason to think Efren is the best, don't you think?

I'll give you all a solid example why Efren would beat Parica in a Color of Money style match. I have seen both Parica and Efren play when they are 'struggling'. I have seen Parica play so bad that he struggles to make 5 balls. This of course is when he is not in stroke. I've seen Efren when he is struggling, and he still plays good enough to beat anybody in the world. On a bad day, Parica might miss about 7 balls in a race to 11. On a bad day for Efren, he might miss 3 or 4. Those of you who have seen both players play often would agree with me. Parica has a very high gear, and is easily in the top 20 in the world when he is in stroke, but when he is struggling he plays very poorly. I have never seen Efren play less than %75 of his game.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
For the last few years people say that Antonio Lining is the best money player in the world. I asked why he doesn't seem to do well in tournaments, and my friend (who knows all of the top Filipinos very well) told me that Lining just doesn't have a gear for tournaments, but for money he plays so well it's ridiculous.

Years ago before Efren became famous, Parica was the pool star in the Phillipines. When Efren came about, he became the pool star, but turned it into super-stardom. He is the most famous name in the Phillipines. For a country that is so crazy about pool, you'd think EVERYONE over there would have a reason to think Efren is the best, don't you think?

I'll give you all a solid example why Efren would beat Parica in a Color of Money style match. I have seen both Parica and Efren play when they are 'struggling'. I have seen Parica play so bad that he struggles to make 5 balls. This of course is when he is not in stroke. I've seen Efren when he is struggling, and he still plays good enough to beat anybody in the world. On a bad day, Parica might miss about 7 balls in a race to 11. On a bad day for Efren, he might miss 3 or 4. Those of you who have seen both players play often would agree with me. Parica has a very high gear, and is easily in the top 20 in the world when he is in stroke, but when he is struggling he plays very poorly. I have never seen Efren play less than %75 of his game.
Well said. Adding one thing. It was about 4 or 5 years ago that I was talking to a pro player who was running around staking some of the Philipino guys and his words were something to the effect of" Antonio might not be the best tournament player in the world, but he is the one who gives up the most weight to top notch players including some of the great players from his homeland."
 
tfdr said:
for those of you who were not in the philippines in the early eighties
here is the real score

just prior to parica's invasion of the USA
they have a sort of color of money match set up between the two for three days i think in hte phil.

well parica lost, and his title as king of philippine pool

no more debate on this efren is better on a one-on -one duel
i believe it was this one.....this article was posted in another forum a while back..
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Cardinal_Syn said:
i believe it was this one.....this article was posted in another forum a while back...
Wow! Thanks for sharing that article Cardinal_Syn. That article can be made a thread in itself, because it provides so much information and history of Filipino pool.

I especially enjoyed the bolded quote in the article...

Filipino billiard pros may never know whether they can shoot with the best in the world, because they've hardly tried the games by which world champions are determined.
I guess the past 20 years of pool history has shown exactly which game truly fine tunes a pool player's overall skill...15 BALL ROTATION! It seems like once you master rotation, all other games come relatively easy.
 
not a prob.....the site that i uploaded it is messed up so it's on and off...if any one wants to upload it in another site it'll be greatly appreciated...it trully is a great article.
 
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