Taper Roll ???

pdcue said:
Wrong again - taper roll is an effect one may observe when rolling
a cue that is straight but doesn't roll like your grandma's rolling pin.

There are several ways to determine if a cue is straight - rolling
it on a pool table is not one of them.

Dale
Click to expand...

So I guess if you roll a stick on a table and it stays uniform to the table surface the full 360 it's quite obvious the slate needs replacing?

You can roll a shaft in the bed of your truck and tell if it's straight or not. Just because it's not warped enough for thr tip to leave the table does not mean,,,,,it's straight, that wobble 12 inches up from the tip (where the bridge hand is) is just taper roll, so it really is perfectly straight!

Shafts are either straight or they are not, regardless what you call the wobble when you try to sell it.
 
Not true. There is acceptable movement in a cue. Anyone that buys more then one cue a decade knows its just wood. It moves. A brand new cue can a hair of movement and be acceptable. However. I don't grab a 35 year old Palmer or Joss and expect not to see movement.

Bottom line. If the tip doesn't leave the table. It won't alter your shot. If you feel that mentally it will affect your game then you are a head case and probably should quit playin pool. A lot more is affecting your game then that tiny bit of light under the shaft
 
Renegade_56 said:
So I guess if you roll a stick on a table and it stays uniform to the table surface the full 360 it's quite obvious the slate needs replacing?

You can roll a shaft in the bed of your truck and tell if it's straight or not. Just because it's not warped enough for thr tip to leave the table does not mean,,,,,it's straight, that wobble 12 inches up from the tip (where the bridge hand is) is just taper roll, so it really is perfectly straight!

Shafts are either straight or they are not, regardless what you call the wobble when you try to sell it.
Click to expand...
Single angle butts will always look better when rolled on the table than SW.
Conical shafts will always look better when rolled compared to compound and parabolic shafts.
Imho of course.
 
dave sutton said:
Not true. There is acceptable movement in a cue. Anyone that buys more then one cue a decade knows its just wood. It moves. A brand new cue can a hair of movement and be acceptable. However. I don't grab a 35 year old Palmer or Joss and expect not to see movement.

Bottom line. If the tip doesn't leave the table. It won't alter your shot. If you feel that mentally it will affect your game then you are a head case and probably should quit playin pool. A lot more is affecting your game then that tiny bit of light under the shaft
Click to expand...

I agree completely Dave. I was referring to the statement that somehow a cue can have taper roll yet still be straight, and that rolling on a flat surface and seeing wobble didn't mean it was not straight, and also that looking down the cue was somehow better than comparing it to a fixed flat surface to determine straightness. How much warp a player can tolerate is another animal.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
Single angle butts will always look better when rolled on the table than SW.
Conical shafts will always look better when rolled compared to compound and parabolic shafts.
Imho of course.
Click to expand...

yeah I know, but you can compare if the amount of light changes as you spin the cue with any of them, if there is any light visible. That's not the point I was making though Joey.
 
Renegade_56 said:
I agree completely Dave. I was referring to the statement that somehow a cue can have taper roll yet still be straight, and that rolling on a flat surface and seeing wobble didn't mean it was not straight, and also that looking down the cue was somehow better than comparing it to a fixed flat surface to determine straightness. How much warp a player can tolerate is another animal.
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And here I thought you were just extremely hard headed.

Apparently you really can't grasp this fairly simple fact.

Dale
 
pdcue said:
And here I thought you were just extremely hard headed.

Apparently you really can't grasp this fairly simple fact.

Dale
Click to expand...

I reckon not, I'm just a lowly aerospace Machinist/CNC Programmer,,,,granted there aren't many straight parts on fighter jets, so why don't you enlighten us, or me, on how something that is crooked really is straight.
 
Renegade_56 said:
I reckon not, I'm just a lowly aerospace Machinist/CNC Programmer,,,,granted there aren't many straight parts on fighter jets, so why don't you enlighten us, or me, on how something that is crooked really is straight.
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Join a straight SW cue.
Tape a small piece of masking taper right at the bottom of the forearm.
Roll it.
Is it straight ?
;):D
 
geocheren said:
here is a video of the run out difference between two lathes and the same shaft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY0efdxSq7g

In the first lathe, you can see significant run out, the meter is moving 30 units (0.3mm). In the second lathe, you dont see much run out at all. If shafts are retapered, or sanded down, on a lathe like the first one, those run outs will show up on a shaft as a taper roll. Thats what I think of when I hear the term taper roll.
Click to expand...

Neither of these two examples will give an accurate account of how straight the shaft is. In both examples the shaft was clamped a couple inches back from the tip, which basically tells the TIR of the center of the ferrule to the clamping center of the jaws, assuming they are bored correctly. In the 1st example the steady rest is way up the shaft several inches, which establishes an axial relationship between the steady rest at that point on the shaft to the clamping point center of the jaws. The 2nd example never showed the joint end of the shaft ever being supported at all, so this method could likely result in a different TIR reading every time it's clamped. If you TRULY want to know if it is warped, then you must confine the shaft on both ends at the same time on the machine centerline and then find the point along that axis where indicator runout is at it's most extreme. If the shaft is enough out of round to warrant all of this it's likely junk anyway.

About the video,,,,,,I have no idea who made it, but any journeyman machinist knows better than to spin parts under power with a dial indicator needle on it,,,it will bust springs, jewels, and wear the indicator out prematurely,,,no better way to ruin an indicator than this. I have indicators in my box that are over 35 years old.
 
Renegade_56 said:
I reckon not, I'm just a lowly aerospace Machinist/CNC Programmer,,,,granted there aren't many straight parts on fighter jets, so why don't you enlighten us, or me, on how something that is crooked really is straight.
Click to expand...
i think you have been right since the get go but i think people are talking about a few different things at once.Some are talking about rolling the whole cue and others are talking about just the shafts.For me if I only roll the shaft alone, its straight or not straight.There is no grey area for me.
 
scsuxci said:
i think you have been right since the get go but i think people are talking about a few different things at once.Some are talking about rolling the whole cue and others are talking about just the shafts.For me if I only roll the shaft alone, its straight or not straight.There is no grey area for me.
Click to expand...

Roll it together.... roll the shaft and butt separately.... never roll it on a table (you might see that it is not straight) ....just look down the cue to see if it is straight.......


IT'S STRAIGHT OR ITS WARPED................

Kim

PS: When in doubt............ see my avatar...............
 
There are many things effecting a cues shape. Being made from wood, a cue can change shape in several different directions and how it moves depends on moisture exchange. Some of those shifts do not change the centerline. Some do. Learn the differences before you start pointing fingers. Few cuemakers use a constant taper for their shafts. Only a constant taper will roll on a table without light showing. Some cuemakers use a couple of different tapers for different sections of the butt. Their cues will always appear to be warped if you roll them on a table. Elevate one end of the butt as you roll it to check for warpage.
 
taper roll is a warp that isnt bad enough to cause the tip to lift when a shaft is rolled due to the relief of the taper. if the warp exceeds the relief of the taper, one end or the other will lift. have only seen a couple of straight cues ever.
 
Renegade_56 said:
I reckon not, I'm just a lowly aerospace Machinist/CNC Programmer,,,,granted there aren't many straight parts on fighter jets, so why don't you enlighten us, or me, on how something that is crooked really is straight.
Click to expand...

Well, if you are merely a lowly CNC Programmer, you would be ill advised
to get into an "I'm-Smarter-than-you-are" fight with me, since you don't seem
to even be smart enough to spel S-E-A-R-C-H:)

The OP ask for a definition of the term 'taper roll'.

No one has bothered to supply that answer yet, a few uninformed posters
have stridently suggested it is a dodge used by people attempting
to sell a cue thet doesn't "roll" the way they think it should.

While it is true that a warped cue will wobble when rolled, it does not
follow that all cues that wobble, or more commonly, seem to wobble,
are warped.

Google the phrase "all elephants are grey, ergo, anything grey must be
an elephant".

How well do you understand the material properties of wood and plastics,
esp over time?

How many cues have you ever worked on in a Machine Tool, like a
Metal Lathe? When the answer is hundreds - get back to us.

Dale
 
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pdcue said:
No one has bothered to supply that answer yet, a few uninformed posters
have stridently suggested it is a dodge used by people attempting
to sell a cue thet doesn't "roll" the way they think it should.
Click to expand...

The answer has been supplied several times already, but for some reason nobody knows it when they see it. And posters claiming that it's a dodge used by people to sell warped cues are correct. Fact is people generally misunderstand it. Worse yet, folks use the term to describe a warped cue so they can sell it. It sounds nicer than "warped" and sounds technical so it confuses people into thinking it's actually straight when it's not. Some, I assume, are innocently ignorant & just passing false info. Rarely do I see somebody use the term correctly.

Take a rod & give it a cam shape instead of a perfect circular shape. Roll it. No matter how straight it is, it'll wobble. Take three or four perfectly round components & join them straight but slightly offset from center, with the front & rear components being on the same center line. The assembled unit will be straight but when rolled, it'll wobble. Is a crank shaft straight? You bet it is, or it wouldn't work. But it will wobble horribly if rolled flat. Between centers it spins fine & smooth and straight. Water down the crankshaft & /or cam effect and apply it to cues and you have true taper roll. It's not warped, or non-straight. But it won't roll straight. It's pretty simple.

This simple explanation is what builders who use compound tapers use to explain why cues don't roll straight on a table. Somewhere along the way, people borrowed the term & applied it to slightly warped cues so they could sell them with minimal loss of value. Nowadays when you see a cue listed and "taper roll" is in the description, there's a very good chance that it's a warped cue. The most common taper roll is joining shafts to butts. They both may be dead straight, faced dead flat center, but the pin or shaft hole may be a couple thou off center, meaning two very straight components join slightly off center, but are still faced straight. When blended together, one or both of those components will become out of round. That cue rolled on the table will show variance in the light under the shaft as it rolls, even though it's perfectly straight. Saying it's warped would be inaccurate. "Taper roll" would accurately describe the variance you see in the shaft taper, would it not?
 
. "Taper roll" would accurately describe the variance you see in the shaft taper, would it not?[/QUOTE]

No. Not if it is straight and round. the material will still all be the same distance from the center all the way around, so it will not vary in distance from the surface it is roiling on. thus taper it ten ways to Sunday and it will not wobble as long as it is straight and round.
 
pdcue said:
Well, if you are merely a lowly CNC Programmer, you would be ill advised
to get into an "I'm-Smarter-than-you-are" fight with me, since you don't seem
to even be smart enough to spel S-E-A-R-C-H:)

The OP ask for a definition of the term 'taper roll'.

No one has bothered to supply that answer yet, a few uninformed posters
have stridently suggested it is a dodge used by people attempting
to sell a cue thet doesn't "roll" the way they think it should.

While it is true that a warped cue will wobble when rolled, it does not
follow that all cues that wobble, or more commonly, seem to wobble,
are warped.

Google the phrase "all elephants are grey, ergo, anything grey must be
an elephant".

How well do you understand the material properties of wood and plastics,
esp over time?

How many cues have you ever worked on in a Machine Tool, like a
Metal Lathe? When the answer is hundreds - get back to us.

Dale
Click to expand...


Wow, you sure are an angry fella,,,,,,To start with, I made a statement that taper roll is a term sellers use instead of warp, to sound better when they try and sell a cue,,,,,,this is absolutely true. Nowhere in that statement does it say that is the only thing taper roll is.

I really like your answer here:

taper roll is an effect one may observe when rolling
a cue that is straight but doesn't roll like your grandma's rolling pin.
Click to expand...

way over my head there,,,,,,,,

pdcue said:
There are several ways to determine if a cue is straight - rolling
it on a pool table is not one of them.

Dale
Click to expand...

maybe not, but it'll sure as hell tell you if it's crooked,,,,,,,

Renegade_56 said:
So I guess if you roll a stick on a table and it stays uniform to the table surface the full 360 it's quite obvious the slate needs replacing?

You can roll a shaft in the bed of your truck and tell if it's not straight. Just because it's not warped enough for the tip to leave the table does not mean,,,,,it's straight, that wobble 12 inches up from the tip (where the bridge hand is) is just taper roll, so it really is perfectly straight!

Shafts are either straight or they are not, regardless what you call the wobble when you try to sell it.
Click to expand...

This must be false also I guess,,,,,,,

And here I thought you were just extremely hard headed.
Click to expand...

I have actually heard this before,,,,,,

Apparently you really can't grasp this fairly simple fact.
Click to expand...

Dale[/QUOTE]

Renegade_56 said:
I reckon not, I'm just a lowly aerospace Machinist/CNC Programmer,,,,granted there aren't many straight parts on fighter jets, so why don't you enlighten us, or me, on how something that is crooked really is straight.
Click to expand...

well,,,,,,

pdcue said:
Well, if you are merely a lowly CNC Programmer, you would be ill advised
to get into an "I'm-Smarter-than-you-are" fight with me, since you don't seem
to even be smart enough to spel S-E-A-R-C-H:)
Click to expand...

check your spelling,,,,,,

The OP ask for a definition of the term 'taper roll'.

No one has bothered to supply that answer yet, .
Click to expand...

including you,,,,,,

a few uninformed posters
have stridently suggested it is a dodge used by people attempting
to sell a cue thet doesn't "roll" the way they think it should.

While it is true that a warped cue will wobble when rolled, it does not
follow that all cues that wobble, or more commonly, seem to wobble,
are warped.

Google the phrase "all elephants are grey, ergo, anything grey must be
an elephant".
Click to expand...

So brown elephants are grey also???????
It also does not follow that cues that wobble are straight,,,,even if it is "taper roll".
check your spelling,,,,,,,

How well do you understand the material properties of wood and plastics,
esp over time?
Click to expand...

Well lets see, I took wood shop for 3 years in high school from 1971-1974, and then worked in a cabinet shop for 4 months after that,,so admittedly not so much about wood,,,,but plastic, you probably don't wanna go there, probably machined tens of thousands of pounds of it.

How many cues have you ever worked on in a Machine Tool, like a
Metal Lathe? When the answer is hundreds - get back to us.
Click to expand...

Number of cues I've worked on? I doubt it's hundreds, but it's more than a few. As far as machine tools, including "Metal Lathes" (like thats complicated), I started my Machinist/Tool and Die Maker Apprentice-ship in October 1974 and have not missed a paycheck in the Machinist, or CNC Programming trades since then,,,,so I'd venture to say I've likely seen and done things on machine tools you will never see.
I work on pool cues,, for me, friends, and relatives because I can, and I enjoy it, and never charged a dime for it yet. It's not that hard! I do quite well on my Lowly Programming job, but it's increasingly apparent to me now that I could have grown up to be a pool cue repairman instead. Owell, too late now.
Just curious,,,,,,what exactly is your background in machining other than retipping pool cues? Have you ever made a pool cue? Could you sell one you made?
Click to expand...
 
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