Do you see anything wrong with giving credit to great players before they leave us?
- Thread starter Lock N Load
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Exagerate much ???
I did a search on the term "dancing monkey" and usage by JAM and found TEN threads. two in 2006, one in 2007, 2009 and 2010, two more in 20011 and three (so far) in 2012. So how many times do you go back and reread old threads ???
Ten threads with maybe four post by JAM in each thread hardly adds up to millions or thousands.
So what is your agenda?
I did a search on the term "dancing monkey" and usage by JAM and found TEN threads. two in 2006, one in 2007, 2009 and 2010, two more in 20011 and three (so far) in 2012. So how many times do you go back and reread old threads ???
Ten threads with maybe four post by JAM in each thread hardly adds up to millions or thousands.
So what is your agenda?
Oh, so you took the million and the thousand literally? Like ten isn't a lot? In the future I'll try to get accurate figures for our mentally challenged members. Sorry for your confusion.
My "agenda" is to let her know that her "dancing monkey" analogy is inaccurate. People watch dancing monkeys. Nobody watches pool.
(GSM...when I say "nobody", I mean relatively few, as in not enough to attract sponsors, not literally "nobody". So you wont have to go through the trouble of researching billiard related event attendance for the last 100 years.)
Gee, that's a novel idea. Who'd have thunk it?
I've never referred to a "danicing monkey."
As long as everybody else, to include pool industry members, TDs, pool organizations, pool media, and everybody else makes more money than the pool player when he competes, then he is a mere dancing money. Without the dancing monkey, the industry member, TDs, pool organizations, and pool media would have no material. They need dancing monkeys, but they should treat them a little bit better monetarily, don't you think? 20 percent is ridiculous, when everybody else is making four times that. After all, it's the pool player who everybody is making money on.
I never did understand the dump analogy of pool players, but after reading your lovely post, I can understand why they may have the thought cross their mind.
Dear AzBilliards' members,
This post right here written by CharlesUFarley is the reason why pool in the United States will never rise in popularity. There currently is no respect for professional players in the American pool culture, and it is people with opinions such as his that professional pool will continue on a downward spiral to oblivion. You can blame the players themselves; that's what this forum does over and over again. But I know better. I've been out there and witnessed what goes on; IOW, seen both sides of the fence.
There's good and bad in every sport -- game -- heck, I have trouble even calling pool a "sport" today with no professonial tour and no professional governing body looking out for its interests. The BCA looks the other way when it comes to professional pool players, and it seems the American pool culture, as evidenced by AzBilliards Discussion Forum, thinks pro players are bums with no jobs and don't deserve any modicum of respect. The WPA is supposed to be the world organizational entity for pocket billiards, but let's get real about pool as a so-called "sport." Do you really believe that pool will ever be in the Olympic Games? When is the next time it's up for consideration? 2032, '42, '52, never? I'm still scratching my head at why there is a need for the WPA in professional pool. Anybody can call a tournament "world class" nowadays, right, Dragon?
Gosh, you know, I realize that I now have come full circle with pool. Because I happened to fall in love with a pool player, I'm labeled a "groupie." After 12 years, I don't know whether to be flattered or insulted at 58 years old. And no matter how much I pour into pool, I will be kicked in the teeth by those I tried to help with my time, money, free product, and efforts. People have selective memories and wipe their feet on you when they're finished using you. I have never in my life experienced a more mean-spirited group in a sport/game than pool. It's quite sad, really -- well, at least for me.
My boyfriend, Keith, woke up the other day and read a thread about who's your favorite pool player and why. He turned to me and said, "I guess nobody remembers me anymore. My name wasn't even mentioned." At first, I kind of felt sad for Keith, knowing pool truly has been his whole life, due to the cards he was dealt as a child, but then I thought to myself, thank goodness, you got out of it while you were still on top of the world, and you have a life *away* from pool to look forward to.
I know you will read this thread, Keith, as you do every morning when you wake up. Why dance like a monkey for ingrates, only to get disrespected? You're better off not pouring your heart and soul into something that will only lead you to sorrow when you grow old. Look at how poor Grady felt he was treated during the autumn of his life. Here's a man who was heralded as one of the great legends in American pool, and he sure did take a beating on the Internet from time to time. And the only thing he was truly seeking was the love. I know he had a funny way of going about it, but that's all Grady ever wanted, if you think about it. There ain't no love for the pro player unless, of course, he can dance a mean jig to put profit in somebody else's pocket; thus, the "dancing monkey" terminology.
You can be on top of the world today and kicked in the butt after you can't run a rack anymore. Welcome to American pool. I feel better now, and I really have come full circle. Mine eyes have finally seen the glory.
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IMO, calling pool players dancing monkeys is a unfair and inaccurate characterization of what pool players do for a living. In another thread, Scott Lee said the following very eloquently:
JAM...I love ya, but would you PLEASE give up on the "dancing monkey" commentary? According to your definition, every professional athlete, in every sport, and every kind of entertainer, in every venue, is a dancing monkey. Maniac and Banks pointed out adroitly, that we're all dancing monkeys to somebody...which is essentially true. Times change...the ability to make a decent living playing pro tournaments, or gambling ain't what it used to be. Sorry, but that's how life evolves. That doesn't make it any less painful...nor does it make it any less true (although continually complaining about it grows old). It's not about the BCA, the WPA, or anything else. It's just the way things are, and evolution (positive or negative) cannot be heaped on any particular person or organization's shoulders.
In today's economy (which is often not much more than a stone's throw away from the Great Depression, where 25-35% of the US population were unemployed), people have to evolve to survive. Even adapting or learning new skills doesn't guarantee somebody a job. 50 years ago the USA was the manufacturing king...not true anymore, and sadly not likely to change all that much in the future. While you insist on calling them 'dancing monkeys', I prefer the term pool entertainers. It is NOT a negative connotation, no matter how much you want to make it so. There is room for 1000 or more pool entertainers like myself, and plenty of work to sustain them all. One thing lacking in this possibility is attitude. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean the world owes you a living. I say, "Get off your ass, and MAKE it happen!"...instead of sitting around mulling "how good it used to be"! JMO.
Scott Lee
In today's economy (which is often not much more than a stone's throw away from the Great Depression, where 25-35% of the US population were unemployed), people have to evolve to survive. Even adapting or learning new skills doesn't guarantee somebody a job. 50 years ago the USA was the manufacturing king...not true anymore, and sadly not likely to change all that much in the future. While you insist on calling them 'dancing monkeys', I prefer the term pool entertainers. It is NOT a negative connotation, no matter how much you want to make it so. There is room for 1000 or more pool entertainers like myself, and plenty of work to sustain them all. One thing lacking in this possibility is attitude. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean the world owes you a living. I say, "Get off your ass, and MAKE it happen!"...instead of sitting around mulling "how good it used to be"! JMO.
Scott Lee
dancing monkeys
Most sports figures are dancing monkeys when you think about it. They make a hell of a lot more money for other people than they make for themselves. Lost interest in both over the years but I was as deeply involved with circle track racing as I was with pool. Let's take a look at circle track racing.
On the local small track level the racers put butts in the stands or they don't get paid. Just that simple. Either the track cuts purses or closes the gates if they don't make money. When a track was successful the track owner made a hell of a lot more money than the owners and drivers. This driver never forgot that he was a performer and was indeed dancing for his dinner!
We are going to skip over the middle ground which is a mixture of the smallest and largest and look at big time racing. Great drivers herding cars around the track at over 200 miles an hour, people that can do that and find their way to the front must have people standing in line to hire them, right? Well, not exactly. The best driver in the world will find himself sitting on his butt without a ride if he can't put together "a package" including millions in sponsorship. Nothing new about that either. Bobby Aliison drove some of the best cars in the business but a huge part of his being in demand as a driver was that he carried Coca-Cola sponsorship with him everywhere he went.
The truth is that all athletes are entertainers and cash cows for other people. It may not seem like that when someone like Tiger Woods in his heyday was raking in over a hundred million a year but the moment he couldn't dance or the public didn't want to see him dance the big money evaporated overnight.
The issue with pool is that there isn't any money coming into it for the most part. The people putting on events and the players are passing the same little bit of money around and around. There isn't enough money for venues and promoters to make a bunch of money and pass a big enough cut to pool players for them to be happy. The ugly truth is often everyone involved except the top few winners loses money, including the promoter. That is why we see the IPT, Galveston, the other splash in the pan and gone ventures. They all dream of the big money in other sports and then they bang heads with reality. Poorer and wiser they disappear and we wait on the next pigeon, um, I mean savior of pool!
It's a lot more fun to be a dancing monkey when you are dancing for millions. It stinks to be dancing for a hamburger and a place to sleep tonight.
Hu
Most sports figures are dancing monkeys when you think about it. They make a hell of a lot more money for other people than they make for themselves. Lost interest in both over the years but I was as deeply involved with circle track racing as I was with pool. Let's take a look at circle track racing.
On the local small track level the racers put butts in the stands or they don't get paid. Just that simple. Either the track cuts purses or closes the gates if they don't make money. When a track was successful the track owner made a hell of a lot more money than the owners and drivers. This driver never forgot that he was a performer and was indeed dancing for his dinner!
We are going to skip over the middle ground which is a mixture of the smallest and largest and look at big time racing. Great drivers herding cars around the track at over 200 miles an hour, people that can do that and find their way to the front must have people standing in line to hire them, right? Well, not exactly. The best driver in the world will find himself sitting on his butt without a ride if he can't put together "a package" including millions in sponsorship. Nothing new about that either. Bobby Aliison drove some of the best cars in the business but a huge part of his being in demand as a driver was that he carried Coca-Cola sponsorship with him everywhere he went.
The truth is that all athletes are entertainers and cash cows for other people. It may not seem like that when someone like Tiger Woods in his heyday was raking in over a hundred million a year but the moment he couldn't dance or the public didn't want to see him dance the big money evaporated overnight.
The issue with pool is that there isn't any money coming into it for the most part. The people putting on events and the players are passing the same little bit of money around and around. There isn't enough money for venues and promoters to make a bunch of money and pass a big enough cut to pool players for them to be happy. The ugly truth is often everyone involved except the top few winners loses money, including the promoter. That is why we see the IPT, Galveston, the other splash in the pan and gone ventures. They all dream of the big money in other sports and then they bang heads with reality. Poorer and wiser they disappear and we wait on the next pigeon, um, I mean savior of pool!
It's a lot more fun to be a dancing monkey when you are dancing for millions. It stinks to be dancing for a hamburger and a place to sleep tonight.
Hu
Who are these people making all this money on the backs of the players? From my experience, and it goes back pretty far, most of the promoters, sponsors, pool room venues owners make little or nothing.
I many cases they lose money but just do it out of a love for the game. In fact it is almost a charity event for the players in many cases and you wonder why these promoters even bother it can be such a headache for no return. It is not their fault and not the players fault, they have a product no one wants.
If half these guys running tours really cared about making money they would fold their tours and do something else with their time more lucrative, like maybe collecting aluminum cans along the highway.
You have to be honest the players owe a lot to these promoters, they are the last people they need to be blaming for their financial problems.
Heck, maybe these players who are being so exploited should just get into the lucrative business of pool tournament promoting. No one is stopping them, promote pool tournaments and get rich.
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Hello Smokey,
How are things going for you and the family? I thank you for your kind post. Keep up the good work!
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
how can I possibly be what's wrong with pool today? I'm just a frustrated wanna be, right? By your logic, talented players like Keith woke up one day and decided they want to entertain the mas
ses and decided that the avenue was pool? SHIT, I always thought they started out just wanting to hustle John Doe out of his lunch money and then when they became good at it, a handful of people watched. Boy was I wrong.
It was about 1993-94 when Keith was in Denvr with Johnny Ryder, DennisHatch, Shannon Daulton, and Tony Watson.
Davy Gomez couldn't make a matich with just one, so he played each of them, as I remeber sets for $1000 maybe $1500.
Keith had played his set and was on the sideline. I think he admired the spirit of Davy and showing some gamble.
Davy was playing Dennis and missed a shot.Keith shook his head and said." You spend all the time in the world at this game and sometimes it just don't love you back"!
Why that stuck with me for so many years, I guess I 'll never know.
I know this, i am grateful for so many memories he gave us. He was exciting and certainly entertaining, not to mention, great.
life has funny twists and turns as we all know. I am though happy you and Keith found each other. I believe you are both better people because of it.
Many of us do remember and remember well. We aren't literary wonders and have trouble expressing such.
Attitudes towards the pros isn't the real problem with pro pool, but it certainly doesn't help any. Most of thse bashing and ridiculing don't know the cue from the chalk and often not deserving of an opinion, but words are only words.
r
I did not take it literally but I figured there had to be more than ten threads in 6 years to get your panties in a wad. I figured wrong. Maybe your just jealous because you don't get to sleep with Keith.
Too bad this thread got sidetracked.
I'm all for giving credit and talking to as many of the guys and gals that went before as possible:thumbup:
Lock, GITTERDONE!
And anyone else who has contact with them, please talk to them, listen to their stories, write them down or record them, otherwise they will be gone forever . . .
I'm all for giving credit and talking to as many of the guys and gals that went before as possible:thumbup:
Lock, GITTERDONE!
And anyone else who has contact with them, please talk to them, listen to their stories, write them down or record them, otherwise they will be gone forever . . .
Hello Thommy,
I thank you very much for your comments. I was trying to get it done, but some haters got in my way. I do not understand at all. If people do not like my threads or subject in my threads why read them. If I do not like something I do not fool with it at all.
Thommy we lost several great pool players between last year and this year to date. Never to hear from them again in life. Thanks again Thommy.
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
hey thommy...
i was thinking the same thing - but also i think the other posts were/are reasonable too. of course Locks idea was a Great Thought for all of us to think about; and also i think Jam/others have added a lot of thought too
i think for a lot of us, Jay H's thread was/is a fantastic one, here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=272594
Jay's thread was titled: "Names from the past"
i thought Jay's thread should be another Main Category option for us. i guess many of you are like me and enjoy to read about the Legends of the Past, but as Lock implied [i feel he did anyway] that we would also really like to enjoy to read and comment on the current Legends [of the future]. i have no clue what many of you think so please comment - it's just my 2 cents and we could just call it, The Greats
and lastly to Jam: if i could ask a genie for one pool wish, i would wish to play Keith a game of 14.1 to 1,000 with a spot of 950. i couldn't imagine having more fun
all the best,
smokey
i was thinking the same thing - but also i think the other posts were/are reasonable too. of course Locks idea was a Great Thought for all of us to think about; and also i think Jam/others have added a lot of thought too
i think for a lot of us, Jay H's thread was/is a fantastic one, here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=272594
Jay's thread was titled: "Names from the past"
i thought Jay's thread should be another Main Category option for us. i guess many of you are like me and enjoy to read about the Legends of the Past, but as Lock implied [i feel he did anyway] that we would also really like to enjoy to read and comment on the current Legends [of the future]. i have no clue what many of you think so please comment - it's just my 2 cents and we could just call it, The Greats
and lastly to Jam: if i could ask a genie for one pool wish, i would wish to play Keith a game of 14.1 to 1,000 with a spot of 950. i couldn't imagine having more fun
all the best,
smokey
Smokey,
I wasn't in any way denigrating the side track. I really enjoy Jams posts, I mean, who knows more about a shooter than the one snuggling with him?:thumbup:
I just want to hear as much as we can about the folks who lived it, while they can still tell it FIRST HAND!
As much as I hate to admit it, those days, (the 70s and 80s?, 30s and 40s?)
ain't coming back anytime soon, and I wasn't in on the action. This is my way to live it vicariously
Damn, I wish I could go back and ask Doc about it, but I was just a dumbass teenage kid and didn't know better, now I do, maybe?
I wasn't in any way denigrating the side track. I really enjoy Jams posts, I mean, who knows more about a shooter than the one snuggling with him?:thumbup:
I just want to hear as much as we can about the folks who lived it, while they can still tell it FIRST HAND!
As much as I hate to admit it, those days, (the 70s and 80s?, 30s and 40s?)
ain't coming back anytime soon, and I wasn't in on the action. This is my way to live it vicariously
Damn, I wish I could go back and ask Doc about it, but I was just a dumbass teenage kid and didn't know better, now I do, maybe?