Moisture Content of Chalk

I sold my old pool table to a friend that is very frugal. I warned him about keeping the air conditioning running in the basement to keep the humidity down. A month after the table was set up, I went to his house to shoot some. The Masters chalk had the consistency of mud due to the humidity. Chalk will absorb moisture like a sponge.
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
I've heard people say that chalk absorbs moisture over time. I've also heard people say that it dries out over time. Maybe it just depends on things like where the chalk was stored or how it was made. Comments?
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Chalk is a naturally occurring stone that can be used straight from the ground as a method to mark other objects. It occurs naturally as a White semi-hard stone that is abrasive. When processed it is ground and mixed with fillers, depending upon what was used as a filler I suppose that it could cause Chalk to absorb moisture and break down over time.

Just my thoughts
 
I set some pieces of Master chalk on the microwave tray today and set a bowl (with a loose-fitting lid) of water in the middle so it would boil and "steamed" the chalk 3 times at about 20-30 minutes per turn. When I get home from the gun range on Friday I'm gonna try it out and see if the "steaming" process changed the playability of the chalk.

Maniac
 
manwon said:
Chalk is a naturally occurring stone that can be used straight from the ground as a method to mark other objects. It occurs naturally as a White semi-hard stone that is abrasive. When processed it is ground and mixed with fillers, depending upon what was used as a filler I suppose that it could cause Chalk to absorb moisture and break down over time.

Just my thoughts
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you're right, it will absorb moisture, but keep in mind that most, if not all modern cue 'chalk' doesnt actually contain any real 'chalk' at all.


I set some pieces of Master chalk on the microwave tray today and set a bowl (with a loose-fitting lid) of water in the middle so it would boil and "steamed" the chalk 3 times at about 20-30 minutes per turn. When I get home from the gun range on Friday I'm gonna try it out and see if the "steaming" process changed the playability of the chalk.
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conversely you could "cure" a block of chalk by storing it in salt to extract the moisture.


when trying to add moisture, I find that the size of the water particles is crucial, moreso than temp.
 
Mr. Bond said:
when trying to add moisture, I find that the size of the water particles is crucial, moreso than temp.
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What do you mean by "size of the water particles"?

Do you have any specific suggestions about how to add moisture quickly?

Also I'm kind of wondering if it's even possible to penetrate the cube all the way to the middle with moisture.

thanks
 
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We used to use the term ''cakey'' when the chalk would have allot moisture in it and was prone to miscues. On the other extreme I've seen chalk too dry, but thats difficult to do but it happens. I've seen bad cubes of new chalk (who knows where its been) and the chalk maker in Georgia (not Master) is exposed to extreme humidiy and sometimes can be cakey when new.
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
Yeah, that joke has been made around AZ before, but it's funny. I'm beginning to think it comes down to the moisture content originally in the chalk as it's manufactured, as well as the grittiness.

Today's Master is not as gritty as the pre-flag, and it's caky to boot. Baking it fixes the caky-ness, but doesn't help it grab more, so I'm on the fence about whether any post-manufacturing remedies are worth-while, but am willing to experiment.
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I contacted Tweeten and here is their response:


"Hello Randy:

I have tired for years to put that one to bed and I just don't want to fan the flames so to speak. The bottom line is, the American Flag has nothing to do with our product other then to show pride as an American and as an American manufacturer after 9/11. What hurts my feelings is that some American somewhere started this ridicules rumor with no knowledge at all and all we wanted to do was show pride as Americans!

No one ever realizes that we continue to make both flag and non-flag Master on a random basis and I would challenge anyone to prove to me that their piece of chalk (without a flag on it) is 10 years old or 10 days old. And how come no one ever questioned Triangle...because we didn’t put a flag on it? Just absurd.

Sorry for the rant.

Cheers,
Tweeten Fibre Co., Inc.

Skip Nemecek,
President

(312) 733-7878 Phone
(312) 733-0767 Fax

The information contained in this message and any attachment may be proprietary, confidential, or subject to the work product doctrine and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately by replying to this message and deleting it and all copies and backups thereof. Thank you."

So again from the Horses Mouth, there is no difference between pre and flag Masters.

I love it that they still label some without the flag and people think it's better.
 
blakerandy said:
So again from the Horses Mouth, there is no difference between pre and flag Masters.
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Yeah, I empathize with your consternation, but there's more to the story, it's not that simple.

The people who noted the difference initially, say they noticed it in the mid to late '90's. The flag was added after 9-11, 2001, by Tweeten as a patriotic gesture. So there is not even close to a perfect correlation between the change and the time frame the flag was added. I do think it's an unfortunate misnomer to call it "pre-flag". Plus as you say, they still make non-flagged chalk today. I believe I read on here that they make that for foreign markets. It definitely can be hard to say for sure that you are getting the real deal until you actually use it.

I have also read on here that Tweeten claims they made no changes to the way the chalk was made. I would never say they are fibbing, because who am I to make that statement (nobody) and what do I know about what they do there (nothing).

Here's a theory; maybe something in their ingredients or their process changed without their knowing it.

Let's say that the color pigmentation supplier changed some chemical in their product that in turn affects some key ingredient or moisture content in the chalk during baking.

Maybe their old one-quart silica scoopers got replaced with one-liter silica scoopers and no one noticed. :p

Let's say Tweeten's chalk baker quit and they hired a new one who is taller and the parallax he sees on the oven's temperature gage is different and they are now baking the chalk at 5 deg cooler than they used to. :p

A lot of people can tell the difference using this chalk, myself included. Something is definitely different. But I hate to say Tweeten is lying, just that there may be some inexplicable reason that caused the change. And that change has no correlation to WHY the flag was added and a very imperfect correlation to WHEN the flag was added. If you want to buy "genuine pre-flag", try to ensure it was made before 1995-ish if you can. So there you have it, at least that's my take on the whole thing.

Fatz
 
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You've made an excellent point Randy. Absolutely excellent.

But.

I'm not so sure that posting his entire letter to you, verbatum, is a good idea.
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
I hate to say Tweeten is lying...
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Then I would suggest that you don't even turn down that street, and avoid even the slightest implication that someone isnt telling you the truth at Tweeten. Because in all reality it's a ridiculous notion.

Some folks don't understand that the Nemecek clan has been (experimenting with) and producing top quality cue chalks (and tips), backed by real world testing and success, for nearly 100 years straight.

That doesnt happen by accident. That happens when you have an excellent product, time and time again, decade after decade.
It happens when you know exactly what you are doing.




Pre-Flag Master said:
... just that there may be some inexplicable reason that caused the change.
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And that, my friend, is the magic answer you seek.
From the day that the chalk is produced, its condition will start to change. Beginning with what the weather was like on the day it was made.
 
Mr. Bond said:
Then I would suggest that you don't even turn down that street, and avoid even the slightest implication...
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There was absolutely no such implication on my part at all. In fact that very phrase that you quoted of me was a introduction into the exploration of other explanations for the difference in the chalk that was made before 1995-ish and today.

There is definitely a difference, so I chose to explore reasons to explain the difference OTHER than the possibility of Tweeten saying anything untrue, because I NATURALLY ASSUMED that they did NOT say anything untrue.

We are on the same page here, you just misunderstood me, got it?

Fatz
 
I understood you Mr. Fatz, and I didnt suggest that you had done anything wrong. I was just suggesting that you not "go there". Because just like Mr. Nemecek, I too am sick of seeing people twist simple facts into disrespectful sketchy BS.

If that doesnt apply to you, then party on my friend. No harm no foul.

As for the particle size question, in layman's terms, "moisture" comes in various sizes, from visible 'drops' down to just a few molecules. The humidity outside is a different size than the humidity in your fridge, which is also a different size than the humidity inside a bread bag etc etc. The key is to find the one that delivers what you want.

But the trick to that is the fact that your humidity outside is different than mine, and the fridge and my bread etc etc...so coming up with the perfect solution for any one location is not the same as it would be here.

Chalk is kept, stored and used under so many different conditions worldwide, that without an in-depth scientfic study, I doubt that anyone can really say what the "perfect conditions" for a given chalk might be.
 
Mr. Bond said:
I understood you Mr. Fatz, and I didnt suggest that you had done anything wrong. I was just suggesting that you not "go there". Because just like Mr. Nemecek, I too am sick of seeing people twist simple facts into disrespectful sketchy BS.

If that doesnt apply to you, then party on my friend. No harm no foul.
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thanks. Sounds like Tweeten has been subject to people not so clear on what are not facts, but just guesses that were stated as facts. I try to be clear about the difference when I speak or write.
 
Just an idea

I'm not expert other than playing with many different chalks...I use BD almost exclusively, and Masters if I'm out of BD. The question I would like to ask is: What if it isn't a matter of formulas changing, but of age? What if older chalk just applies and "plays" better simply due to the aging process?

Just curious.
 
So last night I put two drops of water on a cube of hard-as-a-rock "Pioneer Billiard Chalk" and secured it in an airtight plastic bag. Today I applied chalk to my tip. Chalk was kinda clay-like and pasty. Seemed to work OK - no miscues - but I'm not a power hitter. Not sure if I have much confidence in it. Further research needed...

Rick
 
Missing Link said:
I'm not expert other than playing with many different chalks...I use BD almost exclusively, and Masters if I'm out of BD. The question I would like to ask is: What if it isn't a matter of formulas changing, but of age? What if older chalk just applies and "plays" better simply due to the aging process?

Just curious.
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Chalk that "plays well" grabs the cue ball. I think that this comes down to ingredients, the proportions of the ingredients and possibly the process of making it as well. I think that chalk that "applies well" goes on in a nice even, complete coat and not caky. I think this comes down to ingredients, moisture content, hardness and to whatever extent moisture content affects hardness.

That's how I'm looking at it at this point, subject to change because I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

I think the pre-flag Master is better because of some kind of actual difference in the formulation. The batches that I have had actually do not apply as well as I would like because it's a bit on the hard/dry side. You have to work it a bit. But it has the grittiness that today's Master chalk does not have and that is why it's better, in my opinion. I'm hoping that making it absorb more moisture would make it better in terms of applying it. If making it more moist just changes it into being exactly like a batch of new Master, then I'd have to confess I was wrong. I don't think that would happen though. I have baked today's Master to dry it out and make it apply better (it's starts out too caky). After doing this, I liked the way it applied, but it didn't improve the performance in terms of grabbing the cue ball.

As far as I can guess the aging process is going to primarily affect moisture content, and even that seems to be dependent on the environment that it's stored in - seems to be the lesson from this thread. If it could affect other aspects of the chalk, I don't think so, but would be open to other ideas about that.

I tried some cheap chalk I got on ebay recently. The seller said flat out it was made in China. It coated nice and evenly. It looked good going on. And it seemed nice and gritty too. But then it didn't stick to the tip. I mean one shot and it was gone. Not only that, it caused the tip to glaze very quickly. I don't know the mechanisms behind it all, but bottom line is that it was just crap chalk.

Right now I think bad chalk is bad chalk and good chalk is good chalk and aging it isn't going to make it better or worse other than moisture content which would affect how well it applies and therefore maybe only slightly how well it plays.

I recall that I tried NIR once. It was soft and messy. I gave up on it thinking, I'll find something better. But my recollection is that it coated well. My criteria for chalk is this...

1. Plays well
2. Applies well
3. Not messy
4. Readily available
5. Reasonably priced

Now that I have tried so many different brands of chalk, it just seems like there's nothing out there that meets all my criteria. So I'm re-thinking the order of priorities of the above list. I have ordered more NIR to try it again. If it plays well, I might just learn to live with the messy-ness or try baking it to see if that'll help (I hadn't gotten into the idea of baking chalk at that time yet).
 
Bumpa said:
So last night I put two drops of water on a cube of hard-as-a-rock "Pioneer Billiard Chalk" and secured it in an airtight plastic bag. Today I applied chalk to my tip. Chalk was kinda clay-like and pasty. Seemed to work OK - no miscues - but I'm not a power hitter. Not sure if I have much confidence in it. Further research needed...

Rick
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I've read threads here where people put water on other people's chalk during a match to screw it up. I guess chalk that is literally wet on the surface is a bad thing.

Now if yours had time to soak in and just ended up raising the deeper moisture content slightly, then maybe that's good. I've been wondering myself how deeply into the cube can you change the moisture content, how much, and how quickly.

Do you use much english? I will get way out to the edge on top and bottom, but tend to not use as much side to side.

Keep us posted.

thanks
 
Maniac said:
I set some pieces of Master chalk on the microwave tray today and set a bowl (with a loose-fitting lid) of water in the middle so it would boil and "steamed" the chalk 3 times at about 20-30 minutes per turn. When I get home from the gun range on Friday I'm gonna try it out and see if the "steaming" process changed the playability of the chalk.

Maniac
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So how did it work out? thanks
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
I think the pre-flag Master is better because of some kind of actual difference in the formulation.




As far as I can guess the aging process is going to primarily affect moisture content, and even that seems to be dependent on the environment that it's stored in - seems to be the lesson from this thread.
Click to expand...


So as far as the first quoted statement above, you are of the opinion that the folks at Tweeten are not being totally honest when they say the formula hasn't been changed, only some American flags on the labels is the only difference???

As far as your second quoted statement, maybe that is the sole reason why some people notice a difference in the pre-flag/flag masters chalk. It may be nothing more than the enviornment that the older chalk has been stored in over the years. Maybe the folks at Tweeten are on the up-and-up after all!!!

Maniac
 
Mr. Bond said:
conversely you could "cure" a block of chalk by storing it in salt to extract the moisture.
Click to expand...

Mr. Bond, would this allow the cube to be "cured" all the way to the middle? Can you give us a rough idea how long it would take to do that?


Mr. Bond said:
when trying to add moisture, I find that the size of the water particles is crucial, moreso than temp.
Click to expand...

So what methods do you use to add moisture? Again, I've been wondering about how deeply into a cube of chalk can one change the moisture content, how quickly can it be done, and what procedures to follow.

Baking chalk is easy enough to figure out for removing moisture and I like the salt idea. But for adding moisture, I'm at a loss. The humid bathroom idea just doesn't seems that "efficient" to me.

thanks
Fatz
 
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