What is a cue's "hit" to you?

Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fargo 1000 on VP4
Silver Member
What is a cue's "hit" to you?

- A purely subjective measure of what feels good to the user

- The amount or quality of information transmitted to the user about the cue's impact with the cue ball

- How easily/effectively the cue moves/controls the cue ball

Of course, "hit" can be a combination of things, but please choose the single definition that's most important to you (or add your own).

And please explain/elaborate as much as you like.

There's no right or wrong answer to this question - I'm interested in the variety of (equally valid) ways players appreciate a cue's "hit".

Thanks in advance,

pj
chgo
 
Interesting topic Patrick. As I've only ever played with one cue, I am not qualified to provide input.

But I'd venture to guess that if you gave 3 different cues to 3 different good, experienced players, their feedback might vary substantially. In any case, it'll be interesting to follow this thread.
 
I think there are two parts. The first is what happens when you hit the cue ball in the middle. The sound/vibration tells you how solidly the tip/ferrule/joint/butt are put together. The second is how the cue sounds/feels when you spin the ball a lot.

Physics says to expect two kind of vibration. The first is a "wiggle" like what you see when you whack the cue sideways and it vibrates like a plucked string. The frequency of this vibration is about 20/second. The second is the compression wave travelling end-to-end along the length of the stick. This has a frequency of about 1000/second so it is in the audible range.

Both kinds of vibration have been captured by ultra-high-speed video. The "wiggle" kind normally is much large for off-center hits (spin shots).
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think there are two parts. The first is what happens when you hit the cue ball in the middle. The sound/vibration tells you how solidly the tip/ferrule/joint/butt are put together. The second is how the cue sounds/feels when you spin the ball a lot.

Physics says to expect two kind of vibration. The first is a "wiggle" like what you see when you whack the cue sideways and it vibrates like a plucked string. The frequency of this vibration is about 20/second. The second is the compression wave travelling end-to-end along the length of the stick. This has a frequency of about 1000/second so it is in the audible range.

Both kinds of vibration have been captured by ultra-high-speed video. The "wiggle" kind normally is much large for off-center hits (spin shots).
Click to expand...
Thanks, Bob. I always look forward to your value-added input.

Can you describe what you want from a cue in terms of its hit?

pj
chgo
 
From Murray Tucker, copied from a similar "hit" post on the front page...

"Here it is. I keep it handy all the time.

Here is a Post from John McChesney circa 1999:

Here's something interesting we tried in 1991:
At an event we had 16 cues with the butt, joint and the ferrules covered
with masking tape...then numbered. No one could "see" if the cue was a
steel, plastic or wood joint (as in a Pete), nor detect by the style of
ferrule. We had 70 players...each hit balls with the cues throughout the
weekend.

The results:
Of nearly 800 attempts over the time period, the players guessed wrong about
what type joint was in the cue more than 7 out of 10 times. A top pro
(Meucci staffer) happened to be there, having done an exhibition and the cue
he liked the most during the attempts: He thought was surely a Meucci,
plastic joint when in reality it was an older Adams with a piloted steel
joint; and additionally guessed the Meucci he shot with as a cue with a
steel joint. Again, I maintain that cues with different joint materials may
sound differently; may be balanced differently, but what is "hit" ? Doesn't
"hit" have to do with all the senses: Vibration (feel), sound, balance, etc.
What is a "soft" hit? What is a "hard" hit? (what does this mean, if not
the sound the cue makes upon impact, or are people ref. to the vibration in
the butt?) Does a hard hit vibrate more and make a different sound? A soft
hit vibrate less with a different sound? I maintain that the primary
criteria that differentiates one cue from another begins with: The tip
(soft, med or hard) The shaft diameter and density of the wood The taper (or
stiffness of the shaft) To this day, I still don't believe the joint has
much to do with the reaction of the cueball off the shaft, rather it is the
3 aforementioned that have far more bearing on how a cue plays than anything
else. Remember, what makes the predator shaft play differently is what is
located at the tip, inside the shaft, the ferrule and the laminations....not
the joint or butt. In closing, our experiment asked which cue the players
liked best: Of the 70 players, nearly 55 liked the hit of two cues with
different numbers: When the two were exposed, they both were sneaky petes,
wood to wood joints, (one a Scruggs and the other a Huebler); both about 19
oz., both about 13 1/4mm and tended to be on the stiff side of "hit". By
the way, the 55 who liked the hit of these two cues: more than half thought
they would be steel jointed."

I agree with the above, but to stay on topic, to me the hit is "The amount or quality of information transmitted to the user about the cue's impact with the cue ball" as you said in your opening statement.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
What is a cue's "hit" to you?

- A purely subjective measure of what feels good to the user

- The amount or quality of information transmitted to the user about the cue's impact with the cue ball

- How easily/effectively the cue moves/controls the cue ball

Of course, "hit" can be a combination of things, but please choose the single definition that's most important to you (or add your own).

And please explain/elaborate as much as you like.

There's no right or wrong answer to this question - I'm interested in the variety of (equally valid) ways players appreciate a cue's "hit".

Thanks in advance,

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Balance is number one for me, then comes the hit. Per your options, my answer is: - The amount or quality of information transmitted to the user about the cue's impact with the cue ball

I like a lively hit so that I can feel the vibrations in the grip hand at different speeds. I also like to hear the sound of the hit change a bit at different speeds. I think sound plays more of a role than most people think.

Anyway, I feel like speed control is easier with more calibration points then just arm movement. Vibration and sound provide additional speed control points of reference.

Once I have found good balance and good hit, weight really makes no difference.
 
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ping vs thwap

Without getting into the physics of it (much better qualified people for that like Bob Jewett), what I want as far as hit starts with the noise made upon striking whitey center ball. If it doesn't provide the sharp note/ping as I find in many TS cues, then it's not going to be a player for me.

I've written about this before and I've asked numerous cuemakers about how to achieve this sharp noted 'ping' and it seems that there is no real formula to follow as far as which joint to use, ferrules or tip type. At the end of the build, it either does or doesn't and that's that. If anyone knows otherwise, please chime in.

So what does it mean to me as far as playablity?

I compare the sharp noted cues vs the others that tend to provide more of a 'thwap' sound with that of a 2 x 4 being dropped on concrete.

If you take a 6 foot long 2 x 4 and drop it vertically from just a foot off the concrete, when it hits you will hear the same sharp note, the ping.

Alternately, if you orient the same 2 x 4 horizontally and drop it onto the cement you will hear a thwap.

To my mind, the <<<ping>>> reassures me that the cue is solidly built and, in fact, it will move the cue ball much more crisply while requiring less effort. Also, these pinging cues are providing much better feedback to me.

Could all be psychological but I believe there is something to it.

Great topic Patrick. Thanks for posting.

best,
brian kc
 
JMW:
...I feel like speed control is easier with more calibration points then just arm movement. Vibration and sound provide additional speed control points of reference.
Click to expand...
I agree. I also like to be able to feel how far offcenter I hit the cue ball - maybe that's a function of the "wiggle" vibration Bob described, but I also like a stiff hit...

Thanks,

pj
chgo
 
rayjay said:
From Murray Tucker, copied from a similar "hit" post on the front page...

"Here it is. I keep it handy all the time.

Here is a Post from John McChesney circa 1999:

Here's something interesting we tried in 1991:
At an event we had 16 cues with the butt, joint and the ferrules covered
with masking tape...then numbered. No one could "see" if the cue was a
steel, plastic or wood joint (as in a Pete), nor detect by the style of
ferrule. We had 70 players...each hit balls with the cues throughout the
weekend.

The results:
Of nearly 800 attempts over the time period, the players guessed wrong about
what type joint was in the cue more than 7 out of 10 times. A top pro
(Meucci staffer) happened to be there, having done an exhibition and the cue
he liked the most during the attempts: He thought was surely a Meucci,
plastic joint when in reality it was an older Adams with a piloted steel
joint; and additionally guessed the Meucci he shot with as a cue with a
steel joint. Again, I maintain that cues with different joint materials may
sound differently; may be balanced differently, but what is "hit" ? Doesn't
"hit" have to do with all the senses: Vibration (feel), sound, balance, etc.
What is a "soft" hit? What is a "hard" hit? (what does this mean, if not
the sound the cue makes upon impact, or are people ref. to the vibration in
the butt?) Does a hard hit vibrate more and make a different sound? A soft
hit vibrate less with a different sound? I maintain that the primary
criteria that differentiates one cue from another begins with: The tip
(soft, med or hard) The shaft diameter and density of the wood The taper (or
stiffness of the shaft) To this day, I still don't believe the joint has
much to do with the reaction of the cueball off the shaft, rather it is the
3 aforementioned that have far more bearing on how a cue plays than anything
else. Remember, what makes the predator shaft play differently is what is
located at the tip, inside the shaft, the ferrule and the laminations....not
the joint or butt. In closing, our experiment asked which cue the players
liked best: Of the 70 players, nearly 55 liked the hit of two cues with
different numbers: When the two were exposed, they both were sneaky petes,
wood to wood joints, (one a Scruggs and the other a Huebler); both about 19
oz., both about 13 1/4mm and tended to be on the stiff side of "hit". By
the way, the 55 who liked the hit of these two cues: more than half thought
they would be steel jointed."

I agree with the above, but to stay on topic, to me the hit is "The amount or quality of information transmitted to the user about the cue's impact with the cue ball" as you said in your opening statement.
Click to expand...


It's a wonderful old story, re-told many times.


What it points out is that one cannot predict the construction based on how the cue plays though....it actually reinforces that there are differences in how cues hit and feel. It also demonstrates the numerous misconceptions on the matter.

It's hard to beat a good sneaky IMHO.


.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
What is a cue's "hit" to you?

- A purely subjective measure of what feels good to the user

- The amount or quality of information transmitted to the user about the cue's impact with the cue ball

- How easily/effectively the cue moves/controls the cue ball

Of course, "hit" can be a combination of things, but please choose the single definition that's most important to you (or add your own).

And please explain/elaborate as much as you like.

There's no right or wrong answer to this question - I'm interested in the variety of (equally valid) ways players appreciate a cue's "hit".

Thanks in advance,

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I probably won't be of much help to you depending on why you asked, but ALL THREE(3) are important to me. I would not want one(1) without the others. BUT if you force me to choose, I'd say #3. I want to & must control the cue ball, without that the game is much harder, at least for me.
 
" The amount or quality of information transmitted to the user about the cue's impact with the cue ball "

Two piece cues are perfectly fine, but personally I prefer the "clean transmission" of a good quality one piece. There is something very comfortable about the feel and it helps me to 'trust' the shot
 
Solid

For me i look for cues that hit like a one piece. after all that is the goal. to get a cue to hit as solid as possible. And the wood used has a huge part in that. Why do you think "old growth" shaft wood is in such high demand. For one its got the weight to move that ball no matter what tip and ferrule you put on it. Its usually stiff no matter what kind of taper you put on it. And the most important part is the sound. like a previous poster stated the sound plays into it alot. I like to use nothing but wood in my cues, joint, butt cap, theres is zero plastic in my cue. ferrule is stag with an elk tip. the feed back is amazing and it just plays good.
 
Yes, a combination of all...and when you find a cue that delivers it all to you, hang on to that cue. I mean, how many posts have we read of someone saying they should have kept the cue they sold?

Love my Josey...it's a keeper!
 

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The hit for me is:

The sound,

The relay of vibration from the front to back hand,

The 'color' of impact I feel in the palm of my back hand,

The resonance of the length of the cue after impact,

The picture the whole event creates in my mind.
 
RRfireblade said:
The picture the whole event creates in my mind.
Click to expand...

Yes. Playing pool is like a dance (series of body motions) and the cue is your partner. You have to find the right partner and that is subjective and hard to describe. But you know it when the whole event (dance) feels just right. And that partner may not be right for the next person.
 
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The hit is as you say, PJ. It's a subjective criteria based on all things you mentioned. But the single most important aspect to me is the "crispness" of the hit. "Crisp" describing how the CB reacts to being hit by your cue and the transmission of the feel throughout the cue. The crispness is light because it's "snappy". This crispness has everything to do with how I address the CB. If it is crisp, my stroke becomes smoother and cleaner because I feel the cue does all the work and I just have to make sure the alignment and stroke is clean. Therefore a crisp hit makes my game simpler and cleaner.

I consider a Southwest as a crisp hit. I think Joss West cues are dense, somewhat like Black. It helps to change materials like ferrule, tip, and joint, but ultimately I find that 95% crispness resides in the shaft quality and general cue-build, because I can find house cues that are crisp, and I have found most titleists to be crisp(which means it may not only be in the shaft)
 
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This

RRfireblade said:
The hit for me is:

The sound,

The relay of vibration from the front to back hand,

The 'color' of impact I feel in the palm of my back hand,

The resonance of the length of the cue after impact,

The picture the whole event creates in my mind.
Click to expand...

prety well describes how I feel too, but I do not like a pinging sound, and have found that most cues that ping when striking the cue ball are light cues, kind of like a straw hitting the cue ball feel to it. I have never shot with a 20 or 21 oz cue that 'pinged'. Balance is extremely important to me too, which is the main reason I would never buy a cue off the Internet
except maybe for a Schon.
 
My analysis is pretty simple, no physics or science here.
I had a Richard Black 4 point cue I bought about 1983 that was my favorite player. Well, I sold it when I got involved coaching my kids in baseball and soccer thinking I could always replace it later if I got back into pool. Well when I wanted another it wasn't easy to replace until about 3 years ago when I got my first Olney cue. What I was looking for and my definition of "hit" is: When you're playing a match, you don't notice the hit - ever. Consistent, no thuds, tinney sounds -bad hits are the ones you notice.
 
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