Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

Personally, I don't believe this for a NY second. It could be proven pretty easily though...with some video analysis. Maybe CJ would allow Randyg to record his eye movement, and then watch it in slow motion, or even a frame at a time. I'm confidant that even CJ doesn't know what he does...particularly since, in his words, he has developed it into a subconscious function (which is the optimum benefit). :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Basically simultaneously...you go from primary focus cue ball to primary focus object ball.....and this MUST be done subconsciously. DO NOT try to think about this, just connect to the shot and allow it to happen. Any other way can be dangerous and I know a few pros that got really messed up trying to tinker with this. "The Game, Allow it to Teach'
 
Basically simultaneously...you go from primary focus cue ball to primary focus object ball.....and this MUST be done subconsciously. DO NOT try to think about this, just connect to the shot and allow it to happen. Any other way can be dangerous and I know a few pros that got really messed up trying to tinker with this. "The Game, Allow it to Teach'

I agree with you...I think

How do you start doing something without doing it consciously first?

Or do I look at the cue ball as I stroke and trust my peripheral to see the object ball?

Thank you and yes the game IS the teacher!

Ken
 
Read this and report back :)

I agree with you...I think

How do you start doing something without doing it consciously first?

Or do I look at the cue ball as I stroke and trust my peripheral to see the object ball?

Thank you and yes the game IS the teacher!

Ken

Read this and report back :)

103758.jpg
 
Personally, I don't believe this for a NY second. It could be proven pretty easily though...with some video analysis. Maybe CJ would allow Randyg to record his eye movement, and then watch it in slow motion, or even a frame at a time. I'm confidant that even CJ doesn't know what he does...particularly since, in his words, he has developed it into a subconscious function (which is the optimum benefit). :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

A video of a champion's eyes throughout the setup and stroke. I like it!
 
Good observation Ken. The answer is "You can't" (well, maybe CJ can! :rolleyes:). In order to create any kind of subconscius process, you have to do things in a certain order...first, define the behavior you wish to change; second, define the behavior you wish to change to; third, establish a list/mantra to follow (write it down)...which aids immensely in training; fourth, train the behavior by talking yourself through each step of the process; fifth, practice the process until you can do it without thinking. Lastly, practicing something long enough, the correct way, will, for most people, result in a habit. A habit that we have done for a long time is defined as ingrained, or subconscious. BTW, I'm not making any of this up. It comes from the top sports psychologists in the world. :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

How do you start doing something without doing it consciously first?

Ken
 
Good observation Ken. The answer is "You can't" (well, maybe CJ can! :rolleyes:). In order to create any kind of subconscius process, you have to do things in a certain order...first, define the behavior you wish to change; second, define the behavior you wish to change to; third, establish a list/mantra to follow (write it down)...which aids immensely in training; fourth, train the behavior by talking yourself through each step of the process; fifth, practice the process until you can do it without thinking. Lastly, practicing something long enough, the correct way, will, for most people, result in a habit. A habit that we have done for a long time is defined as ingrained, or subconscious. BTW, I'm not making any of this up. It comes from the top sports psychologists in the world. :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Let's not hold CJ to the exact meaning of what he typed. Your point is pretty well accepted and I think CJ would agree. That is why I asked the question about seeing the OB with peripheral vision.

I think he is trying to describe/teach something to us but hasn't been able to put it to words yet. Shoot...who knows...maybe it isn't something that can be taught just done.

Maybe we will get more after more thought is given to it.

Ken
 
Good observation Ken. The answer is "You can't" (well, maybe CJ can! :rolleyes:). In order to create any kind of subconscius process, you have to do things in a certain order...first, define the behavior you wish to change; second, define the behavior you wish to change to; third, establish a list/mantra to follow (write it down)...which aids immensely in training; fourth, train the behavior by talking yourself through each step of the process; fifth, practice the process until you can do it without thinking. Lastly, practicing something long enough, the correct way, will, for most people, result in a habit. A habit that we have done for a long time is defined as ingrained, or subconscious. BTW, I'm not making any of this up. It comes from the top sports psychologists in the world. :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

No need for a list, a habit can be changed immediately through the use of hypnosis. In fact the New York Yankees did a study on performance enhancing, a hypnotherapist vs a sports psychologist. Who won? A hypnotist by the name of Stephen Parkhill. He has an amazing book, Answer Cancer.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, but your way might not be the most efficient.

Rule number 7
When dealing with the subconscious mind and its functions the greater the conscious effort, the less the subconscious response.

Rule number 3
Imagination is more powerful than knowledge when dealing with your mind or the mind of another.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
robsnotes4u...While I don't discount your theory, it is accepted in academia that conscious process is what leads to unconscious process. How you accomplish that can obviously be done in several ways. I presented the one that seems to work best for more pool players (thousands of players over years of instruction).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
While delivering the stroke.

Willie Hoppie uses "while delivering the stroke", rather than first or last.
Please note, the following explanation is just that an explanation and not advice.
I have been lining up the shot, getting into my stance with the shot aligned and then confirming my aim by sighting down my cue through the cue ball and to my intended contact point on the object ball. When I am stroking my cue in the practice stroke my eyes remain on the cue ball so I do not accidently bump it. When the practice stroke stops I follow the line of the cue and stroke and confirm that it will take the cueball to it's target(the tiney little fly speck on the OB). If all is well I focus on the exact point I wish to contact the cueball and the line through it to the target. My primary focus is keeping the cue on that line. When the cue strike the ball my eyes then go with the cueball, reading the spin/speed and then the contact with the object ball.
It was a leap of faith at first but so far well worth the exploration. Until I started this experiment I always shifted my gaze from the cueball to the object ball at the back of my stroke, giving a slight pause at that point like Buddy Hall.

My wife says with my new technique, I look like Efren Reyes! I think she is just pulling my leg though.;)
 
robsnotes4u...While I don't discount your theory, it is accepted in academia that conscious process is what leads to unconscious process. How you accomplish that can obviously be done in several ways. I presented the one that seems to work best for more pool players (thousands of players over years of instruction).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Academia used to accept the world was flat and everything revolved around the earth.

Specifically in therapy technicques like EMDR among other things are taking the place of cognative behavioral therapy (basically talking about your conscious and unconscious thoughts) and significantly cut down on the time a client spends in a therapists office.

Point being, things are rapidly changing when it comes to how we understand subconscious thought. Although I likely agree in this instance you need to be consciously thinking about the cue and object ball before you start letting your subconscious take over. At least until someone starts using some other method of planting the idea in your subconscious.
 
Willie Hoppie uses "while delivering the stroke", rather than first or last.
Please note, the following explanation is just that an explanation and not advice.
I have been lining up the shot, getting into my stance with the shot aligned and then confirming my aim by sighting down my cue through the cue ball and to my intended contact point on the object ball. When I am stroking my cue in the practice stroke my eyes remain on the cue ball so I do not accidently bump it. When the practice stroke stops I follow the line of the cue and stroke and confirm that it will take the cueball to it's target(the tiney little fly speck on the OB). If all is well I focus on the exact point I wish to contact the cueball and the line through it to the target. My primary focus is keeping the cue on that line. When the cue strike the ball my eyes then go with the cueball, reading the spin/speed and then the contact with the object ball.
It was a leap of faith at first but so far well worth the exploration. Until I started this experiment I always shifted my gaze from the cueball to the object ball at the back of my stroke, giving a slight pause at that point like Buddy Hall.

My wife says with my new technique, I look like Efren Reyes! I think she is just pulling my leg though.;)


Greg, you've got me curious now. At what level would you describe your play?

thanks,
 
this is how I approach this matter too (robsnotes4u2)

No need for a list, a habit can be changed immediately through the use of hypnosis. In fact the New York Yankees did a study on performance enhancing, a hypnotherapist vs a sports psychologist. Who won? A hypnotist by the name of Stephen Parkhill. He has an amazing book, Answer Cancer.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, but your way might not be the most efficient.

Rule number 7
When dealing with the subconscious mind and its functions the greater the conscious effort, the less the subconscious response.

Rule number 3
Imagination is more powerful than knowledge when dealing with your mind or the mind of another.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Yes, this is how I approach this matter too (robsnotes4u2). I have a degree in Erickson Hypnosis under Richard Bandler and also use NLP and "suggest" that the moment of release is "like snow falling off a bamboo leaf"...hey, a little bit of "Zen" is a nice blend is it not? ;)

images
images
 
My playing level.

Greg, you've got me curious now. At what level would you describe your play?

thanks,
I thank you for your response to my inquiry to your level and felt I owed you the same at that time but was not sure if you cared.;)

First we shall ask my wife for an unbiased opinion;). She says "Well you are an A player in the BCA." Last October I won the Seniors division in the Western BCA 9 ball tournament at Lincoln City, OR. When I won they told my local BCA director that I was now an A player. His response was "Well Yeaaa! What was he before winning the Seniors?"
I am now 61 years old and primarily a bar box player but not afraid of the 4 1/2 X 9.
I played my best pool back in the late 80's with my best finish being a second place finish in a bar box tournament at the White Spot(now the politcally correct Right Spot) in Fife, WA. It was a race to 7 winner breaks with a 48 to 54 player field that included all of the best players from Seattle/Tacoma, Porland and all over the northwest. The field included Dan Louie, Rich Geiler and most likely Stan Tourangeau. I caught a good draw and took advantage. I did not know the fellow I played for the point but did know he had beaten Dan Louie to get there. He had me down 6-2 and I won 7-6 to secure the point. Then Jim Ward came from the losers bracket to crush me 13-4 in the single race final match.

I played briefly in the USPPA in the early 90's but not long enough to get an acurate rating. I did play even with players in the 90's and did beat a player rated at 140 in a race to 7 alternate break on the 9 footers at Players in Chico, CA. At 4-4, I broke and ran, he broke dry, I ran out, then broke and ran for a 7-4 win.

Can't be sure what my best run in 9 ball is as when I was in the zone I never counted. When I was playing putting a six pack on me did not scare me. I have run 4 consecutive racks in 8 ball to secure the league championship for my team.

Now I do not play as much, my eyesight is not as good but my wife and I still enjoy playing. We have always enjoyed watching the pro's play and used to plan our vacations around the Reno Sands tournaments.:D
 
No need for a list, a habit can be changed immediately through the use of hypnosis. In fact the New York Yankees did a study on performance enhancing, a hypnotherapist vs a sports psychologist. Who won? A hypnotist by the name of Stephen Parkhill. He has an amazing book, Answer Cancer.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, but your way might not be the most efficient.

Rule number 7
When dealing with the subconscious mind and its functions the greater the conscious effort, the less the subconscious response.

Rule number 3
Imagination is more powerful than knowledge when dealing with your mind or the mind of another.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Couldn't agree more...but

As in all things in this life, balance must be maintained...

Good post! Thank you!

Ken
 
I've heard that Earl Strickland said he looks at the CB last.

When I first heard (long ago) that Strickland had said this, I went and studied my videos of Earl very carefully. There are many close-up shots of Earl that I looked at and it seemed to me very clear from the video evidence that Earl looks at the OB last on normal shots (not jacked up on the rail, over another ball, etc.).

This doesn't mean that Earl didn't say it, or that he doesn't believe it. Many world-class players don't really understand what they're doing. In fact, that's what Luther Lassiter said when asked if he gives lessons: "I don't give lessons, because I don't know what I'm doing."
 
In the thread Shot / stroke problem a poster put forth the proposition that looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke was "fundamentally wrong". I had already provided evidence that Willie Hoppie considered looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke as fundamentally basic. I had read Willie Hoppies book Billiards As It Should Be Played well over 20 years ago. At the time I was content with my aiming process and just chalked up the cue ball last as a 3 cushion thing. Kind of the way I considered his more upright stance an "Old School" thing compared to the chin on the cue of the top snooker players and shot makers. Anyway the discussion led me to experiment with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

I started experimenting with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke around 01-04-2013, and am pleasantly surprised with the result.

The first thing I noticed was expected. I was able to much more precisely place the cue ball.

The next noticable improvement was shooting off of the rail. My make percentage improved looking at the cueball.

The break shot was next, I was hitting the rack more squarely and more consistenly controling whitey.

Then I starting improving my make percentage on the long backward angle shots that I have always struggled with.

Now practicing with a new technique and competing are two different things. The first time I put it to the test in competition, it was a leap of faith. My percentage was so low on this shot that I figured what the heck what to lose, might as well try it looking at the cue ball. Length of the table and straight in married to the rail, make it and I get the same shot on the eight ball. It worked perfectly!

Now I am two weeks into this experiment and feeling really comfortable with looking at the cueball. So I go to an old cut shot drill that I know what my percentages of make miss looking at the object ball are and am able to make a higher percentage looking at the cueball last.

So after a couple of weeks my cueball control has improved, my shot making has improved and my confidence has improved with no downside. Could some of this improvement be due to the "New" effect? Certainly, but regardless of why I am thrilled with the improvement in my game.:thumbup:

Looking at the cueball when delivering the stroke has also given me new insight into the TOI and what CJ meant when he spoke of "pining"(sp) the cueball.:cool:
Further discussion on this topic can be found in this thread in the Ask The Instructor forum as well.
Why Object Ball Last?

I've always shot while looking at the cue ball, that's how my dad taught me & that's how I taught my daughter as well.
 
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