Pathetic Shark
Banned
I play mainly with centre ball striking, occasionally applying left or right spin on the CB if necessary. I've found this serves me well.
Is it just me?
Is it just me?
Centre ball is my preference
- Thread starter Pathetic Shark
- Start date
Just "holding" on to the cue ball! What ever that takes! Like someone use to have as a sig. line before it was removed.. "Control that white C@%#$ucker You control the table" or something along those lines..
Of course you are not the only one. I think the majority of players use center ball and spin/english to get where they want. Some spin the ball more than others.
I spin the crap out of the ball,,but it is all based off of center ball hit.
I can't say the other techniques suggested on here don't work. And I believe I use their theory in several shots without realizing it. But I don't do this every time.
Them other techniques take a long time to master IMO,,I tried them. I can see how they would be OK but I don't have that kind of time.lol
It took 20+ years to figure how spin the ball to a good position!!! Center ball!!
I spin the crap out of the ball,,but it is all based off of center ball hit.
I can't say the other techniques suggested on here don't work. And I believe I use their theory in several shots without realizing it. But I don't do this every time.
Them other techniques take a long time to master IMO,,I tried them. I can see how they would be OK but I don't have that kind of time.lol
It took 20+ years to figure how spin the ball to a good position!!! Center ball!!
That was very close to what Johnny Ervilino used to say.
I rarely hit center ball. I spin most all shots in.
Nick Varner said he used to spin the ball when he was younger, he said the last 25 years he has been trying to stay closer to the center of the ball!
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Center ball guy here. I pocket balls much better since I went to center from spin about 8 years ago. Using center ball when you can, you don't have to allow for all the spin. I was told by a good player 60 years ago to use center CB. But I thought spin and 100 rails looked cool so that's how I shot for a long time. Johnnyt
for me i try to stay on vertical axis
and use tip placement to determine cueball travel
not "stunning" (center ball ) every shot
does the op mean he stuns every shot??
fwiw
i think this is what cj does and doesnt realze it
i guess i should say real eyes
let the force be with you
:smile:
and use tip placement to determine cueball travel
not "stunning" (center ball ) every shot
does the op mean he stuns every shot??
fwiw
i think this is what cj does and doesnt realze it
i guess i should say real eyes
let the force be with you
:smile:
I'm with ya...
I use center on most shots. Not exact center, but to be exact, along the center, vertical axis. In my short, few years of experience, rarely do I encounter a set up (getting from one shot to the next) that isn't possible with center ball. It just seems to be an issue of how much top/bottom and combination of speed that I need to get down. I've run out more than handful of racks using just a combination of speed and center, and would have 2 handfuls under my belt if I had a better feel for my speed control.
Although in contrast, there are certain position plays that ARE easier using side spin, if you have the feel for 'em. They always say to do as little as possible with the cue ball. And sometimes, as contradictory as it may seem, using english is the simplest way. But not often, from where I've been.
I use center on most shots. Not exact center, but to be exact, along the center, vertical axis. In my short, few years of experience, rarely do I encounter a set up (getting from one shot to the next) that isn't possible with center ball. It just seems to be an issue of how much top/bottom and combination of speed that I need to get down. I've run out more than handful of racks using just a combination of speed and center, and would have 2 handfuls under my belt if I had a better feel for my speed control.
Although in contrast, there are certain position plays that ARE easier using side spin, if you have the feel for 'em. They always say to do as little as possible with the cue ball. And sometimes, as contradictory as it may seem, using english is the simplest way. But not often, from where I've been.
I have been hiting nearly every shot with some form of spin for nearly 46 years.
I only try to use the vertical axis when the shot & position calls for that over a form of spin which IMO is rather rare. Usually a form of spin can enhance position over a center axis hit. It allows one to get into position for runs far easier than just taking what a center hit gives. IMHO shooting without english limits one to take what not knowing how to shoot with english leaves. In a way it is a bit like being enslaved or chained up. If I had to shoot just on the center axis I would probably quit & never play again. To see the oportunities & then not take advantage of those opportunities would actually be 'painful'.
CJ Wiley's TOI is another way to play without trying to hit the exact center vertical axis. I do not understand when some say that he is not doing what he says he has done or that he does not even know what he is doing but instead is doing something else totally different unbeknown to himself. To me that is like calling the man mindless. How can one go to teach what one has learned to do without knowing what one has been doing? Plus there have been many, myself included, who have done just what he has said & found a viable way to shoot that is not just shooting stun shots.
Now, all that said, each one of us is at choice to shoot however one is most comfortable & finds the most enjoyment.
To each his...or her own. There is no one way to play. However IMHO some ways are better than others. But again, those ways may not be for everyone.
Regards,
I only try to use the vertical axis when the shot & position calls for that over a form of spin which IMO is rather rare. Usually a form of spin can enhance position over a center axis hit. It allows one to get into position for runs far easier than just taking what a center hit gives. IMHO shooting without english limits one to take what not knowing how to shoot with english leaves. In a way it is a bit like being enslaved or chained up. If I had to shoot just on the center axis I would probably quit & never play again. To see the oportunities & then not take advantage of those opportunities would actually be 'painful'.
CJ Wiley's TOI is another way to play without trying to hit the exact center vertical axis. I do not understand when some say that he is not doing what he says he has done or that he does not even know what he is doing but instead is doing something else totally different unbeknown to himself. To me that is like calling the man mindless. How can one go to teach what one has learned to do without knowing what one has been doing? Plus there have been many, myself included, who have done just what he has said & found a viable way to shoot that is not just shooting stun shots.
Now, all that said, each one of us is at choice to shoot however one is most comfortable & finds the most enjoyment.
To each his...or her own. There is no one way to play. However IMHO some ways are better than others. But again, those ways may not be for everyone.
Regards,
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It is the way everyone should learn. If you watch Tor use center ball and the tangent line to get around the table and run out a couple of racks, then you know it is quite possible to use center and achieve your goal.
Altho, so far I am quite intrigued re TOI and waiting for the TOI disc to arrive. I would say that TOI has given my game a nice bump and am looking forward to learning how to use it properly.
Altho, so far I am quite intrigued re TOI and waiting for the TOI disc to arrive. I would say that TOI has given my game a nice bump and am looking forward to learning how to use it properly.
I hit the majority of my shots on the vertical axis with a slight bit of high. I use draw when and if I really need it.
If I need english a half tip of left or right will get me most places. If I need a lot of english I use back hand swerve.
I can put the rock anyplace I want with this technique.
If I need english a half tip of left or right will get me most places. If I need a lot of english I use back hand swerve.
I can put the rock anyplace I want with this technique.
A story from one of the "students of TOI", Justin Wray--- 'The Game is his Teacher'
If you have a cut shot to the left, you "aim" or "line-up" to pocket the OB into the right portion of the pocket. Effectively cheating the pocket a little bit. Think of it as "undercutting it" or "hitting it thick". When you do that you're lining up parallel to the center of the CB......using a slight touch of left.
Now, with experience and practice using YOUR tip on YOUR shaft with YOUR cue, you can step into a shot feeling how much TOI you need to pocket it. So, when you line up for that "undercut" to the right side of the pocket and you hit it perfectly, the CB will deflect the OB slightly to the left, which is the dead center of the pocket.
If you "accidently" strike the CB with a bit too much TOI to the left, you'll deflect it even further into the left side of the pocket. So, you've overcut it a bit. And you'll see that. Always truly study where the OB physically goes in the pocket, btw. It'll allow you to make subtle adjustments for future shots.
If you "accidently" strike the CB with "not enough" TOI.....as in closer to the center of the CB that you intended, whether it be thru simply not contacting where you're aiming or you didn't calculate or "feel" that much TOI was needed (and it indeed was needed)......the OB won't be deflected as much and it will go into the right side of the pocket. Which is where you lined it up to go to begin with.
It almost sounds like "black magic", if you over think it. But, here's a couple of nice benefits to this method. One, and CJ says it's just a side benefit, hitting the CB with TOI transfers a little bit of spin to the OB that aids in pocketing it. Some call it "pocket acceptance spin". I'd almost have to be at a table to show you. But, you'd understand pretty quickly, if you already don't. On that cut to the left in the example above, the OB has a slight bit of left on it. So, if it contacts the rail on the way in and hits the opposite pocket facing, that little touch of left, spins it off the facing and into the pocket. I hope that I'm explaining that correctly. It's easier shown than typed.
Also, it's a huge relief to KNOW which side of the CB you're striking. I was always worried when I HAD to hit center CB. I tried to be sooooo precise. And now that tension is gone. I know which side of the CB I'm going to hit and it allows me to focus deeper on zoning out. Mental stress is greatly reduced for me.
As for outside English, you do all of the above, but when you step in parallel to the of the CB to that touch of inside, THEN you can swivel your tip BACK to the center. You've just effectively given the CB backhand English. And you'd be WAY surprised as to how much English you can get out of this. I actually had a shot come up like this last week and I remember distinctly thinking that I need to swivel back to center to come off the cushion with some outside. I was astonished at how much "outside English" that technique gave me. I still ended up oooook on that shot, but I swiveled just a hair too far, honestly. Hey, I'm still learning. But, I know I smiled when it happened and thought, "Dang, you can still really get some outside with this method."
Getting down to brass tacks......since me and my road buddy have started using TOI, just about 3 months ago, he's won 4 league tourneys.....and he'd never won any before. And I just won my first one last week. We're consistently placing higher than pre-TOI and both in the running for Player of the Year in our division (I think he's gonna win, but our goal was to finish 1-2 and we have a good chance of that occurring). We're both "B" division players in our league and have been informed we have to move up a level at the end of this year. But, my buddy and I have both agreed to sign up and play 2 levels higher next year for the added pressure. We're both starting to beat "A" division and even "Master" division players more regularly. Sometimes even completely outrunning the handicap.
There's always something to be learned in this game. That's why it's the greatest game on Earth. TOI has helped me more than anything that I can remember, not to mention in a very short amount of time.
And at the 3 month mark, I think it's safe to say that we're past the "placebo effect".
Justin Wray
Salem, Arkansas
APPA (Arkansas Pool Players Association) Lee's Billiards - Mountain Home, Arkansas
Player: Gary Johnson custom
Back-up Player: Meucci 333-5 with Gary Johnson LD shaft
Breaker: Dufferin 20 oz. house cue w/ White Diamond tip
Jumper: Steve Lomax custom
for me i try to stay on vertical axis
and use tip placement to determine cueball travel
not "stunning" (center ball ) every shot
does the op mean he stuns every shot??
fwiw
i think this is what cj does and doesnt realze it
i guess i should say real eyes
let the force be with you
:smile:
I'll address a couple of points. The concept of hitting to the "inside" of the ball is this......and I'll use an example:
If you have a cut shot to the left, you "aim" or "line-up" to pocket the OB into the right portion of the pocket. Effectively cheating the pocket a little bit. Think of it as "undercutting it" or "hitting it thick". When you do that you're lining up parallel to the center of the CB......using a slight touch of left.
Now, with experience and practice using YOUR tip on YOUR shaft with YOUR cue, you can step into a shot feeling how much TOI you need to pocket it. So, when you line up for that "undercut" to the right side of the pocket and you hit it perfectly, the CB will deflect the OB slightly to the left, which is the dead center of the pocket.
If you "accidently" strike the CB with a bit too much TOI to the left, you'll deflect it even further into the left side of the pocket. So, you've overcut it a bit. And you'll see that. Always truly study where the OB physically goes in the pocket, btw. It'll allow you to make subtle adjustments for future shots.
If you "accidently" strike the CB with "not enough" TOI.....as in closer to the center of the CB that you intended, whether it be thru simply not contacting where you're aiming or you didn't calculate or "feel" that much TOI was needed (and it indeed was needed)......the OB won't be deflected as much and it will go into the right side of the pocket. Which is where you lined it up to go to begin with.
It almost sounds like "black magic", if you over think it. But, here's a couple of nice benefits to this method. One, and CJ says it's just a side benefit, hitting the CB with TOI transfers a little bit of spin to the OB that aids in pocketing it. Some call it "pocket acceptance spin". I'd almost have to be at a table to show you. But, you'd understand pretty quickly, if you already don't. On that cut to the left in the example above, the OB has a slight bit of left on it. So, if it contacts the rail on the way in and hits the opposite pocket facing, that little touch of left, spins it off the facing and into the pocket. I hope that I'm explaining that correctly. It's easier shown than typed.
Also, it's a huge relief to KNOW which side of the CB you're striking. I was always worried when I HAD to hit center CB. I tried to be sooooo precise. And now that tension is gone. I know which side of the CB I'm going to hit and it allows me to focus deeper on zoning out. Mental stress is greatly reduced for me.
As for outside English, you do all of the above, but when you step in parallel to the of the CB to that touch of inside, THEN you can swivel your tip BACK to the center. You've just effectively given the CB backhand English. And you'd be WAY surprised as to how much English you can get out of this. I actually had a shot come up like this last week and I remember distinctly thinking that I need to swivel back to center to come off the cushion with some outside. I was astonished at how much "outside English" that technique gave me. I still ended up oooook on that shot, but I swiveled just a hair too far, honestly. Hey, I'm still learning. But, I know I smiled when it happened and thought, "Dang, you can still really get some outside with this method."
Getting down to brass tacks......since me and my road buddy have started using TOI, just about 3 months ago, he's won 4 league tourneys.....and he'd never won any before. And I just won my first one last week. We're consistently placing higher than pre-TOI and both in the running for Player of the Year in our division (I think he's gonna win, but our goal was to finish 1-2 and we have a good chance of that occurring). We're both "B" division players in our league and have been informed we have to move up a level at the end of this year. But, my buddy and I have both agreed to sign up and play 2 levels higher next year for the added pressure. We're both starting to beat "A" division and even "Master" division players more regularly. Sometimes even completely outrunning the handicap.
There's always something to be learned in this game. That's why it's the greatest game on Earth. TOI has helped me more than anything that I can remember, not to mention in a very short amount of time.
And at the 3 month mark, I think it's safe to say that we're past the "placebo effect".
Justin Wray
Salem, Arkansas
APPA (Arkansas Pool Players Association) Lee's Billiards - Mountain Home, Arkansas
Player: Gary Johnson custom
Back-up Player: Meucci 333-5 with Gary Johnson LD shaft
Breaker: Dufferin 20 oz. house cue w/ White Diamond tip
Jumper: Steve Lomax custom
It sounds to me like you are a player who 'rolls' the CB. Tho you can get by
with this self imposed restriction, the whole truth is it does limit your game.
Many players hit the CB low to slide it. Sometimes that results in 'stun'
sometimes not.
IMHO - each shot should be evaluated individually. In a complicated
situation, as often occurs in the early stages of One Pocket games, the
best shot just can not be executed with center ball.
To have a complete game, you need to master all types of spin and
strokes.
Dale
First and for most you have to learn how to shoot the 4000 shots possibilities, learn all the secrets not only in practice but with money games applying everything under pressure, once graduated you will know what is best for you. IMO, staying at center , center top, or center bottom gives you the best chance to pocket a ball, especially key shots or long shots, however you have to shoot with medium to fast speed always follow through to get rid of throw, if that get you position, if not use as minimum as possible spin.
Others argue, that you cannot hit center, maybe for some people their stroke is not 100%, but also they will hit the english shot off too. Try with 100% (make sure it is 100%) straight shot CB say 2 diamond away, and OB two diamonds away from pocket nice flat no elevation, shoot with 100% center 20 times with stun shot medium speed, use shot clock or timer to add a bit of pressure to simulate that you are in action. If the CB spins or move to sides take note, if the CB spins more than 2-4 times work on your stroke, if you cannot get it and CB spins say CCW , use opposite hair of english to counter it, until CB does not spin, that is how you would know, after that try straight combo shots ..Again MOI.
In his little red book Mosconi says that 85% of shots can be made with a centre ball hit.
To quote Willie from his little red book:
...I cannot overemphasize the value of center-ball stroking. In pocket billiards, my experience has taught me that more than 85 percent of the shots can be accomplished by stroking the cue ball in the center of its vertical axis.
A good rule to remember in pocket billiards is use center-ball stroking on every shot unless English is absolutely required for position of to make a shot that is not "on" without English.
Complete mastery of the game depends to some extent on English, but unless the player understands its application, he can get into more trouble with it than he would without it.
My experience in 15 years of world's championship play has convinced me that the "cue-tip-width-from-the-center-of-the-ball" rule is right. If you go to the left or right beyond that point, the danger of miscue increase.
You cannot apply English to the ball in the proper manner unless your stroke is correct. The cue ball will not take English as you plan it if your stroke is a rigid poke. Rather, your stroke must be spring-like; it must be sharp and deliberate, and you must follow through it.
To quote Willie from his little red book:
...I cannot overemphasize the value of center-ball stroking. In pocket billiards, my experience has taught me that more than 85 percent of the shots can be accomplished by stroking the cue ball in the center of its vertical axis.
A good rule to remember in pocket billiards is use center-ball stroking on every shot unless English is absolutely required for position of to make a shot that is not "on" without English.
Complete mastery of the game depends to some extent on English, but unless the player understands its application, he can get into more trouble with it than he would without it.
My experience in 15 years of world's championship play has convinced me that the "cue-tip-width-from-the-center-of-the-ball" rule is right. If you go to the left or right beyond that point, the danger of miscue increase.
You cannot apply English to the ball in the proper manner unless your stroke is correct. The cue ball will not take English as you plan it if your stroke is a rigid poke. Rather, your stroke must be spring-like; it must be sharp and deliberate, and you must follow through it.
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You speak good pool! wonder who are you? PM if you do not want to share your identity with others. Thanks.
Pathetic Shark
Banned
In the red corner, Mosconi. Genuine legend, known worldwide. Advocates using centre ball and a spring-like stroke, sharp and deliberate, with strong follow-through.
In the Blue corner, Wiley. Champion, gambler, businessman, virtually unknown outside the US. Advocates hitting the CB on one side, 'pinning' and pivoting.
In a Dark corner, amongst the shadows: those of us that know, aka snooker players.
Who to believe? Gentlemen, choose you poison carefully.
Pathetic Shark
Banned
Thanks. This thread is about centre ball, however.