Billiard University (BU) playing-ability-exam scores and ratings

Neil said:
Now that the exams have been out a while and some of you have tried them, do you have any suggestions for possible changes in the future?
I think F2, stop shot, should be in the open table and not by the rail. When I shot this one, I was extremely disappointed in how I did, but I still got a high score because of the rail holding the cb. I feel the rail gives a false scoring.
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In the original version of the exam, we didn't allow cushion contact, but that reduced the margin for error a little on the rail side of the OB, depending on where the donut is placed. We decided to change this because we thought the drill was challenging enough already, especially from CB position 7 on a 9' table. Also, we didn't want either of the first two drills to be too intimidating, especially for beginner to intermediate players. Also, we wanted to use the same setup for as many of the early drills as possible. Also, we liked that allowing cushion contact adds a slight element of strategy to the drill.

However, you make an excellent point. I think I'll add this to the list for reconsideration ... again. What do others think?

Neil said:
The masters banks, S7, has two reverse banks, yet the doctorate exam has none.
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Excellent point. I've added this to the list of possible changes for when we consider revisions.

Neil said:
What do you think should be added?
I would make F1 something to test the straightness of the stroke and hitting center cb. Such as putting a chalk cube angled at the center diamond so you have a definite target, and then putting the cb just in front of the foot spot (in case of a divot being at the foot spot) and having the cb hit the end rail and back to your tip.
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We had a drill similar to this in the original version of the exam, at various shot distances, but it was too sensitive to table levelness. Also, we wanted all of the drills to involve actual pool shots, so we got rid of it (and replaced it with the stun shot drill).

Neil said:
What do you think should be removed?
Nothing.

Are the exams too long?
About right.

If you think something should be added, what would you remove so the exams don't get longer?
Don't see anything that should be removed.
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That's good to hear, especially from someone who has worked with the exams. Thanks.

Neil said:
What do you like or dislike about the scoring system?
At first, it seemed odd to get a bonus point for every "7", but in the end it all works out quite well.
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I also like the bonus scoring ... it adds an extra element of excitement, challenge, and pressure during the exams, and it also rewards excellence and consistency.

Neil said:
Do you think the BU rating is an accurate measure of your playing ability?
To be honest, I was a little surprised that it did work out pretty accurately. However, on a good day, and warmed up first, I believe I could score another 10 or so points. But, that still keeps me in the same "range", so... yes, fairly accurate.
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Everyone I have tested informally has also ended up with a rating that I expected (based on their actual level of play), but I still haven't tested the really high end (except for Gerry so far) or the low end.

I hope CJ still plans to post videos. I also expect a video diploma application soon from another professional player.

Thanks for the input Neil. I appreciate it.

Regards,
Dave
 
Pathetic Shark said:
The test looks a little too dry to complete.
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I assume you are referring to Exam I, or are you also referring to the three levels of Exam II? Have you tried the exams yet? If you think Exam II is "dry," you must be way too good.

Pathetic Shark said:
It needs spicing up a little.
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Exam I is dry by nature because its purpose is to test fundamental skills in a methodical way and place a player into the appropriate Exam II (Bachelors, Masters, or Doctorate level).

What do you think is "dry" about Exam II, and what would you suggest to "spice it up."

FYI, the documents for Exam I and all three versions of Exam II, along with video demonstrations, can be found on the BU Exam Resource Page.

Thanks for your input,
Dave
 
JC said:
I agree with Neil on the stop shot. I doubt anyone shooting this shot for the purpose of this drill is consciously trying to favor the rail side of the ball to use the rail to hold the ball.
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Thanks for the input.

JC said:
Why would they?
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... because it increases the margin for error slightly, giving a better chance for a higher score.

JC said:
Move it away from the rail and maybe widen the scoring zone by half a ball? Or not.
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Good suggestions. I'll add them to the list for consideration during revisions.

JC said:
Also more weight should be put on potting in the fundamental section.
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We currectly have two drills dedicated to shot making. Do you think we should add another or maybe just allow additional attempts at the existing shots?

JC said:
Cut down to 2 shots each at the targets and 10 more pots. You can miss that target paper by a couple inches and still run out 99% of the time but when you miss a ball it's game over for you.
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That's a good suggestion. Again, I'll add it to the list. I personally like the 4 attempts, because it tests the ability to make adjustments both with speed and spin when you are off. I also like the degree of challenge, because it forces you to focus and be precise (and consistent). But again, I agree with your point that you usually don't need to be this precise in most game situations. What do others think on this topic?

Thank you for the input and suggestions,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Thanks for the input.



We currectly have two drills dedicated to shot making. Do you think we should add another or maybe just allow additional attempts at the existing shots?

Thank you for the input and suggestions,
Dave
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I think more shots are needed and perhaps two times through. You currently have no blind back cuts for instance.

There are a couple of key recurring shots that I think should be included left and right in some form.

The eleven ball at the top of the screen and the back cut on the 7 ball at the bottom

ScreenShot006.jpg
 
JC said:
I think more shots are needed and perhaps two times through. You currently have no blind back cuts for instance.

There are a couple of key recurring shots that I think should be included left and right in some form.

The eleven ball at the top of the screen and the back cut on the 7 ball at the bottom

View attachment 278722
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Good suggestion. I'll add it to my possible-revisions list.

Thanks,
Dave
 
AtLarge said:
Do you have scores for the other instructors?
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I've asked the founding professors to submit videos, but I don't know if they will. I think Mark Finkelstein, Mike Page, and Bob Jewett plan to post videos, but I'm not sure about the others (other than Jerry Briesath ... I'm pretty sure he won't because he can no longer play at a level that would be acceptable to him in video. Randy G. might be in the same boat, but I'm not sure).

I am hoping other BU instructors will also post videos; although, this is not a requirement to become a BU instructor.

I'm curious. Why do you ask? I hope you or others wouldn't judge an instructor based on how well they perform on a playing-ability exam. I would think it would be better to judge them based on their knowledge, how well they can communicate and teach, how well they can identify the important elements for an individual to work on, and how well they can help and inspire a student to improve.

Regards,
Dave
 
I haven't got to the point of recording a session yet but getting closer. No real issues. The draw and stun gave me a little trouble but still a 7/8 on them. Wagon wheel will take a little more practice. I have 55 pts without scoring the last 2 drills of exam 1. Should be in the doctorate range when it comes time to test.

I'm an 8 in APA 9 ball for reference.
 
dr_dave said:
I was especially hoping to get some lower scores since we haven't covered the range very well. I know there must be quite a few people out there that are in the "intermediate" category.

Thanks,
Dave
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I absolutely fit this category.:(

When I first saw this thread I went to the site and wrote down how I thought I would score on the test. I came up with 51 on fundamentals and 37 on Bachelor level skills. I had the time to do it tonight and ended with 48 on fundamentals and 29 on bachelor skills for an 77, so pretty close to where I thought. I don't have the ability to video where I shoot, but here were my results.

F 1 Cut - 6
F 2 Stop - 6
F 3 Follow - 8
F 4 Draw - 4 (I thought I would score much higher here:angry:)
F 5 Stun - 2 (:eek: Very disappointing)
F 6 Potting - 5 (Missed all but 1 on the last 5)
F 7 Wagon - 11 (Never tried this before, after 5 it got tuff!)
F 8 Target - 6 (At least I killed the 1st position!, massive fails on 2nd, 3rd and 4th:()

S 1 Line - 4
S 2 Rail - 5
S 3 9-ball - 8
S 4 8-ball - 5
S 5 Safe - 1
S 6 Kick - 2
S 7 Bank - 0
S 8 Elevated - 2
S 9 Jump/Masse - 0 (Wish I would have seen the "remove 1 ball for swerve shot" comment.:angry:
S 10 Break - 2

I started to get tired and rush some stuff towards the end, I think I could score a little better after doing the drills a few times and not after a long day. Also felt the "rating comparisons" sheet was about where I'd be.

**Edit, sorry, this was played on an 8ft Valley. Measurements were 44" table width, 4.5 Pocket Width, and 1" shelf.
-Sean
 
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dr_dave said:
... I'm curious. Why do you ask? I hope you or others wouldn't judge an instructor based on how well they perform on a playing-ability exam. I would think it would be better to judge them based on their knowledge, how well they can communicate and teach, how well they can identify the important elements for an individual to work on, and how well they can help and inspire a student to improve. ...
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Of course that is correct, Dave. The reason I asked is because you were looking for more scores and more validation of test results versus expected playing level, and they would probably have a good handle on their own playing levels.
 
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I did run through part one tonight on film. Scored a 64 on the fundamentals. Film avalable upon request but I see no real reason at this point to upload it.

Edit: 64 on the first drill and 60 on the 2nd Masters exam for a total of 124. I had not practiced t2nd part of the drill at all. Evident by the fumbling around with the sheets. Have it all on video. If I was one of the first 3 and got the complimentary dipoloma I would upload it to Youtube :).

9 foot gold crown 3 table, 4 7/16 pockets and 1.5 inch shelf.

Probably the rating system is pretty close for me. I consider myself to be a very high B, Low A player.

JC
 
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BryanB said:
I haven't got to the point of recording a session yet but getting closer. No real issues. The draw and stun gave me a little trouble but still a 7/8 on them. Wagon wheel will take a little more practice. I have 55 pts without scoring the last 2 drills of exam 1. Should be in the doctorate range when it comes time to test.

I'm an 8 in APA 9 ball for reference.
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I look forward to seeing your total score and videos. Please let us know when the videos are viewable.

Thanks,
Dave
 
SeanChamp said:
dr_dave said:
I was especially hoping to get some lower scores since we haven't covered the range very well. I know there must be quite a few people out there that are in the "intermediate" category.
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I absolutely fit this category.:(

When I first saw this thread I went to the site and wrote down how I thought I would score on the test. I came up with 51 on fundamentals and 37 on Bachelor level skills. I had the time to do it tonight and ended with 48 on fundamentals and 34 on bachelor skills for an 82, so pretty close to where I thought. I don't have the ability to video where I shoot, but here were my results.

F 1 Cut - 6
F 2 Stop - 6
F 3 Follow - 8
F 4 Draw - 4 (I thought I would score much higher here:angry:)
F 5 Stun - 2 (:eek: Very disappointing)
F 6 Potting - 5 (Missed all but 1 on the last 5)
F 7 Wagon - 11 (Never tried this before, after 5 it got tuff!)
F 8 Target - 6 (At least I killed the 1st position!, massive fails on 2nd, 3rd and 4th:()

S 1 Line - 4
S 2 Rail - 5
S 3 9-ball - 8
S 4 8-ball - 5
S 5 Safe - 1
S 6 Kick - 2
S 7 Bank - 0
S 8 Elevated - 2
S 9 Jump/Masse - 0 (Wish I would have seen the "remove 1 ball for swerve shot" comment.:angry:
S 10 Break - 7
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Thank you for posting your scores. Hopefully, this will encourage others with intermediate or lower scores to also post. I'm curious to see where players of different level have trouble. Those stun shot, wagon wheel, and target pool drills can be brutal! FYI, if you want to work on these some more, the following online videos might be helpful:
NV D.8 - Stun Shot Drill - from Vol-II of the Billiard University instructional DVD series
NV C.5 - Wagon wheel cue ball control drill, from VEPP II
NV D.10 - Draw Shot Trisect Aiming System - from Vol-II of the Billiard University instructional DVD series
NV D.11 - Cue Ball Control Target Pool Drill - from Vol-II of the Billiard University instructional DVD series

SeanChamp said:
I started to get tired and rush some stuff towards the end, I think I could score a little better after doing the drills a few times and not after a long day.
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If you work on it some more and do the exams again, please post your new scores. I'd be curious to see how much somebody can improve in a short amount of time with some practice.

SeanChamp said:
Also felt the "rating comparisons" sheet was about where I'd be.
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Thanks for letting us know. So far, the BU rating system seems to be working fairly well.

SeanChamp said:
**Edit, sorry, this was played on an 8ft Valley. Measurements were 44" table width, 4.5 Pocket Width, and 1" shelf.
-Sean
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Thanks for the info.

FYI, I've added your score to the list in the first post of the thread.

Thanks again,
Dave
 
AtLarge said:
dr_dave said:
I've asked the founding professors to submit videos, but I don't know if they will. I think Mark Finkelstein, Mike Page, and Bob Jewett plan to post videos, but I'm not sure about the others (other than Jerry Briesath ... I'm pretty sure he won't because he can no longer play at a level that would be acceptable to him in video. Randy G. might be in the same boat, but I'm not sure).

I am hoping other BU instructors will also post videos; although, this is not a requirement to become a BU instructor.

I'm curious. Why do you ask? I hope you or others wouldn't judge an instructor based on how well they perform on a playing-ability exam. I would think it would be better to judge them based on their knowledge, how well they can communicate and teach, how well they can identify the important elements for an individual to work on, and how well they can help and inspire a student to improve.
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Of course that is correct, Dave. The reason I asked is because you were looking for more scores and more validation of test results versus expected playing level, and they would probably have a good handle on their own playing levels.
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Thank you for reminding me. That gave me a reason to remind the BU professors again, which I have done. Although, I can understand why a pool instructor might not want to post videos online if they don't currently play at a high level. Some potential students might not think they can learn something from an instructor that doesn't play better than they do. Those people would be terribly wrong, but they wouldn't know it if they don't seek instruction. And they might not seek instruction if they see the videos and think the way they think.

Regards,
Dave
 
JC said:
I did run through part one tonight on film. Scored a 64 on the fundamentals. Film avalable upon request but I see no real reason at this point to upload it.

Edit: 64 on the first drill and 60 on the 2nd Masters exam for a total of 124. I had not practiced t2nd part of the drill at all. Evident by the fumbling around with the sheets. Have it all on video. If I was one of the first 3 and got the complimentary dipoloma I would upload it to Youtube :).

9 foot gold crown 3 table, 4 7/16 pockets and 1.5 inch shelf.

Probably the rating system is pretty close for me. I consider myself to be a very high B, Low A player.
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Thank you for posting your results and commenting on the appropriateness of your BU rating.

FYI, I've added your score to the first-post list.

If you decide to post the videos, please let us know so I can add the links to the list. Sorry, but the three free diplomas have already been awarded. :(

Regards,
Dave
 
Dr Dave,

I haven't caught up on this thread, I made a few comments earlier, and I haven't gone back and read the response to them yet..

However,

Last night I downloaded and read every single exam: the fundamentals, the bachelors, masters, and doctorate. I also watched some of Gerry's videos. (I had previously seen some of Dr Dave's).

I want to say the tests and scoring seem very well done. I do a lot of the drills in Joe Tucker's Guaranteed Improvement book, and some of these are similar. Its obvious a lot of work went into this.

I'm gong to give this a try, but it might be a few weeks, as I'm swamped with work right now. I have a couple of questions/comments (sorry if they've been answered earlier, I did not get caught up):

1. On several of the drills you are not allowed to bump another object ball. Question: If you pocket the intended OB, and on the same shot bump another OB with the CB, I know your run ends, but do you get credit for the pocketed ball?

2. On the break "zone" for the CB that is a white grid on the templates, the border is away from the long rail. Does this mean any part of the CB can overlap the border? In other words, the CB can be frozen to the rail and be considered inside the zone? The other tests you were explicit in stating what part of the CB needs to overlap the line to score, but that information is missing from this test on the long rail side.

3. One of the diagrams the lines on the table didn't line up with the diamonds. Just a hair off, like .5" in full scale. But I wasn't sure if this was intentional or not. See S5 bachelors. The 3 horizontal lines are shifted from the diamonds. The vertical lines are centered on the diamonds.

4. Cutting the inside of the paper target is a good idea. When I did the Tucker similar drills of landing the CB on the paper, the ball rolls faster on the paper, leading it to fall off on what would have been a good shot if it was just the cloth. I had found a very thin shear curtain material to use instead of the paper, where the CB rolled almost exactly like it does on the pool cloth.

Thank you.
 
Dr. Dave, I will post a score for you, to give you more data from the low end. I just haven't had the time at the pool room to do it yet. Meaning the right time, time when I can get through the whole segment, and when there aren't a lot of people using the room at the same time.

I will get to it. I'm actually a little annoyed that I havent been able to yet.

It has been fun, reading everyone's results and perspectives. Thanks again for doing this.
 
FWIW Dr. Dave...

I administered the fundamentals test to 4 people of varying abilities. The result were in line with my thoughts on their respective skill levels.

Subject A is a fella who used to play a bit in his younger days but has not played in a number of years. He scored a 13.

Subject B is a gal who is a 62 in USAPL and plays quite regularly. I would rank her about a C- or so. She scored a 26.

These were on a 9 footer diamond with pockets >4.5" . I have not measured the pockets yet but estimate them to be either 4 5/8" to 4 3/4" at the points.

Subject C is most likely a B- to C+ skill level. He scored a 52.

Subject D is a solid B to B+. He could even peak into A- on occasion. He scored a 68 but he performed much faster than he normally plays. Might have been bored with it. I thought he would have scored a little higher. Was hoping he would hit the 80's. He started with 10, 9, 10 then fell off on the next two with a 5 and a 4.

C and D tests were on a Diamond 7' table with 4.5" pockets

I have taken the fundamentals test a second time on my Diamond 9 footer and improved all the way to 62!

I apologize for no videos but time is short right now. I will post up a video asap.

I have seen a lot of interest in what I am doing by bystanders while administering these tests. I anticipate a lot more random results in the future. We'll see :)

Ken
 
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iusedtoberich said:
Last night I downloaded and read every single exam: the fundamentals, the bachelors, masters, and doctorate. I also watched some of Gerry's videos. (I had previously seen some of Dr Dave's).

I want to say the tests and scoring seem very well done.
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Thank you.

iusedtoberich said:
I'm gong to give this a try, but it might be a few weeks, as I'm swamped with work right now.
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I look forward to seeing your results and getting additional feedback.

iusedtoberich said:
I have a couple of questions/comments (sorry if they've been answered earlier, I did not get caught up):

1. On several of the drills you are not allowed to bump another object ball. Question: If you pocket the intended OB, and on the same shot bump another OB with the CB, I know your run ends, but do you get credit for the pocketed ball?
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Thank you for pointing this out. It was not clear in the documents. Now it is ... I've made edits. If you disturb a remaining ball while pocketing a ball, the pocketed ball counts, but the run ends. This applies to both drills S1 and S2 in Exam II.

iusedtoberich said:
2. On the break "zone" for the CB that is a white grid on the templates, the border is away from the long rail. Does this mean any part of the CB can overlap the border? In other words, the CB can be frozen to the rail and be considered inside the zone? The other tests you were explicit in stating what part of the CB needs to overlap the line to score, but that information is missing from this test on the long rail side.
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Thank you for pointing this out. I've made the target zone larger in the diagrams to be clear that it extends to the cushions. You can still earn the "remains in the target zone" point is the CB rebounds off or freezes to a cushion, as long as it doesn't leave the zone. However, if the CB touches a cushion you still lose the "no cushion" point. The resting point (center) of the CB must remain within the zone.

iusedtoberich said:
3. One of the diagrams the lines on the table didn't line up with the diamonds. Just a hair off, like .5" in full scale. But I wasn't sure if this was intentional or not. See S5 bachelors. The 3 horizontal lines are shifted from the diamonds. The vertical lines are centered on the diamonds.
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Thank you for pointing this out. I've cleaned up the S5 diagrams in all of the Exam II documents.

iusedtoberich said:
4. Cutting the inside of the paper target is a good idea.
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Thanks. I agree.

iusedtoberich said:
When I did the Tucker similar drills of landing the CB on the paper, the ball rolls faster on the paper, leading it to fall off on what would have been a good shot if it was just the cloth. I had found a very thin shear curtain material to use instead of the paper, where the CB rolled almost exactly like it does on the pool cloth.
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I thought of recommending cloth also, but a cut-out piece of paper is easier for most people. I also like that the edges of the cut-out paper (inside and outside) can sometimes help and sometimes hurt if you are off a little ... it adds a little "excitement."

Thank you so much for your keen eye. Good job!

If you spot anything else, please let me know.

Again, I look forward to seeing your results.

Best regards,
Dave
 
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