There Is NO Hope For Pro Pool IMO

Shannon.spronk said:

At this point pro pool is certainly not dead. The reality is that many people that feel pool is dead or dying think that pro pool should be this huge entity. What people need to realize is that it never will be. It is not going to have huge sponsors from beer or beverage companies. People also need to realize that for many people pool is just not that exciting to watch. While I enjoy watching Shane or Earl or Efren shoot an amazing shot many people have no idea just how difficult some shots are. This is especially true because the top players make it look so easy sometimes.

Something else that needs to change with regards to pool is table sizes and pocket (sizes, shelf, angles) all need to be standardized. No matter where you go to play golf the hole is the same size. No matter where I might go bowling the lanes are the same sizes with the same pins. This is simply not true in the world of pool.

Now please realize pro pool is not dead. It is not going to die. The problem all comes down to perception of what the game should be.

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The hole in golf may be the same size, but the course itself is vastly different than what it would be if the pros came to play on it. Also, bowling lanes and sizes are the same, but the oil patterns are rarely the same as what the pros play on.

If you make any of these games as hard as they are when the pros play them, people will lose interest quickly because of a lack of success, which is why golf courses don't keep their greens or rough the same level the pros play on. If you had the average joe in a bar playing sub 4.5" pockets with diamond style shelves, the frustration of sucking at pool would drive people away faster than it already does.

When I tell my friends I watch a lot of pool, their response is almost always: How do you stay awake? People find pool boring to watch. Unless you get them into the game so they understand it, they will never want to watch it. Baseball is a slow game on tv, but we have all played it and understand it, so it can be fun to watch. Get enough people to play pool at a decent level, and tv viewing would go up.

.....................

I agree, JohnnyT...

Johnnyt said:

The gate at pro tournaments amounts to about nothing. There are still no big sponsors like Ford, Nike, Bud, and the like. Add a very poor economy and you have enough nails to seal pro pool in its coffin for good. Johnnyt

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Yeah John, it is very hard to be optimistic about where pool is headed.. We've had several posts on the subject, and a lot of people say pretty much the same things. The only variety we get, seems to be when someone posts about another great pool room closing its doors !

Its also hard to believe, a pool movie, (even one better than "the Hustler", and "TCOM" combined)..would do any more than provide a welcome, but very temporary spurt !.. Let me explain my reasoning ! I can't back it up with number's but, I'd bet a large percentage of the AZB forum members, are "baby boomer age", or older. There is also a good % that may be too young, and naïve, to realize what is happening, and WHY !.. Pool and snooker, are still enjoyed world wide, but here in the U.S., it has become mainly a league based operation, that gets a guy out of the house for a few hours, to guzzle a beer or two with the guys !

Serious player's have been declining at an alarming rate, for quite some time now, and there is virtually NO "road" anymore, or (to use Jam's vernacular) ANY feasible "Tournament Trail" to pursue ! ..Even a great promoter (and lover of pool) like CJ Wiley, is heavily investing in what he says, is a pool room/night club..I'm sure he is smart enough to lean towards the "Night Club/liquor/restaurant" part of his new place, rather than depend on pool as a viable source of revenue !

Yes, the economy, and smoking laws, have taken their toll !.. But our history has shown, that usually made it 'better' for the gambling element, that frequent pool halls ! Not any more, and probably never again !.. I applaud the efforts of people like the "Str8 Shot group" who are keying in on our youth, as a way to stimulate interest in our game..But, they have an almost impossible task ahead of them.

Reason being, the youth of today, has literally hundreds of options at their disposal, to keep their VERY SHORT attention spans occupied. They have video games, Ipod's, cell phones, (with unlimited texting ?) paintball, and dozens of other diversions..none of which require hours of practice and dedication, to become proficient at !..And every few months, a new fad is introduced, and they flock to it, en masse !..

This is a fairly recent phenomenon, that pool has never had to deal with before !..It is hard to believe it will ever change, for the better..Thats why, even the hardiest of tournament promoter's, are pulling in their horns, and I fear this may be pro pools 'last gasp' !..We all hate to see that happening, but it doesn't look like ANYTHING is going to change it ! :sorry:

SJD

mantis99 said:

The hole in golf may be the same size, but the course itself is vastly different than what it would be if the pros came to play on it. Also, bowling lanes and sizes are the same, but the oil patterns are rarely the same as what the pros play on.

If you make any of these games as hard as they are when the pros play them, people will lose interest quickly because of a lack of success, which is why golf courses don't keep their greens or rough the same level the pros play on. If you had the average joe in a bar playing sub 4.5" pockets with diamond style shelves, the frustration of sucking at pool would drive people away faster than it already does.

When I tell my friends I watch a lot of pool, their response is almost always: How do you stay awake? People find pool boring to watch. Unless you get them into the game so they understand it, they will never want to watch it. Baseball is a slow game on tv, but we have all played it and understand it, so it can be fun to watch. Get enough people to play pool at a decent level, and tv viewing would go up.

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While what you say about gold courses and bowling alleys is very true there is a very large difference there. When I hit my nine iron and leave my ball 6 inches from the cup my opponent doesn't take a swing at my ball and in the case of 9 ball just drop it in the hole so that he can score or in the case of 8 ball knock it out of the way while making a ball of his own. The same can be said about bowling.

Here is another thing for you to ponder. Is all felt the same? Does each room play the same with respect to a particular areas heat/cold, humidity, lighting at each table, amount of play, age of balls. The answer is that the variances you bring up in golf and bowling can be factored into all of the things that I mentioned.

You can take the exact same Diamond tables and place one in Phoenix and one in Miami and one in Honolulu and one in Minneapolis and come back a year later and none of them will still play the same as the others.

As for the argument about amateurs hitting balls into sub 4.5 inch pockets and being very frustrated I totally understand what you are saying. My opinion is different though. I feel like at the pro level we should not be using pockets that small to begin with. I think they should just be playing longer sets.

Johnnyt said:

As you all can see, there are many reasons that pro pool has about had its run. I could have added more to my thread but was trying to keep it short. One thing in this economy I've said for years is the U.S is too big for the money it cost pros to travel to tournaments for the low % of a reward. If pro pool was to ever get popular our country would have to be divided into at least four areas/leagues with the only long traveling being at play-off time. Johnnyt

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So this is another idea :thumb up:
It would seem that ALL major league sports are chopped into areas / states! Why does pool think it's anything different?
Johnnyt - you may feel low but your idea gives me a high :thumb up:
Yet another idea in less than one day.
How many days did it take to build Rome?

ramblings on what can come

Pro pool has been a wasteland for decades here in the US.... Promoters try and go big with Open events so you have guys calling themselves professionals when they really have no shot at doing more than barely breaking into the money and then matching up with the also rans trying to make a score.... It's not a pretty picture and it is totally disorganized and counter productive....

CSI may be on the right track going forward.... 16 player invitational round robin events would be the right way to ensure that every match will be finals quality and that you can promote to draw a spectator-ship based on knowing what players will be in your field... Offer pro-am charity events and dinners for VIPs to start the week and get the PR wheels rolling.....

What this will do is force a move to a middle proving ground... Something that breaches the gap between amateur and pro... You want to make the 16 well then you have to earn your way on to it... Maybe CSI needs to look to using the new American Rotation league or the USAPL to create the path from APA 7 to 1 of the top 16 that gets to be considered a professional player.... You try and make the show a few years and finally have to give up the dream like all those failed Q-School also rans in golf......

Pool is not dead is just has a disconnect from the bottom to the top... A movie will help the bottom as more people go pick up a cue but it's not gonna help the pro game by organizing it and making it profitable for more than 10 US Pros a year.....

The main issue I see is how Mark picks his 16... It's his show and coming out of the gate he has carte blanche on picking who he feels are the best players for the show.. If your attitude or antics or record keeps you out so be it..... Going forward tho I think there has to be some way to invite the top 16 players on a formula that takes into account skill and success with other variables that would make for a tournament worth watching and attending for spectators and vendors alike.... I am not Mark but here are my 16..... If any could not make it I would have 16 alternates.....
This list includes non US players and maybe should be limited to North American citizens if you are trying to build pro pool out side of the WPA's mission statement to promote pool in Europe and Asia......

Thorsten Hohhman
Shane Van Boening
Johnny Archer
Darren Appleton
Ralf Souquet
Earl Strickland
Efren Reyes
Francisco Bustamante
Jayson Shaw
Mika Immonen
Alex Pagulayan
Lee Vann Corteza
Chris Melling
Niels Feijen
Wang Can
Chang

I'd bill the tournament as the decisive world championship and thumb my nose at the WPA as I did it since a round robin with these players would
be a better test than a standard knock out tournament where we have seen the draw to be a determining factor of who wears the WPA crown....

IF it was North American only....

Shane Van Boening
Johnny Archer
Earl Strickland
Alex Pagulayan
John Morra
Oscar Dominguez
Corey Deuel
Mike Dechaine
Jeremy Soussi
Stevie Moore
Shannon Daulton
Hunter Lombardo
Larry Nevel
Jason Klatt
Shawn Putnam
John Schmidt

If it's US residents and not North American Citizens then Darren, Mika, and Thorsten are in as well as Shaw and Boyes......

I guess it will depend on the intent CSI has going forward and what sponsorship can be generated in added monies as to if the new tourneys will be Nationalistic, Geographic or International in flavor......

I see great promise in a new model... Sometimes the heard has to be culled so that it remains healthy or the entire heard ends up barely surviving on crumbs......

Chris

Maybe something like a team based International league might make Pool interesting for a wider audience? I'm thinking something along the APA or BCA League framework, but at a much higher player level and with televised presence.

Call it the International Pocket Billiards League. Approach the top pocket billiard sanctioning body in each country that has one, and offer for them to field a team for a series of Continent-based tournaments, followed by a final tournament of champions.

Viewing could be organized in tiers, to accommodate different preferred viewing styles, and maybe foster hype... For example, offer pay-per-view online for individuals to watch full length matches, or free streaming video to pool halls who agree to show matches on their television screens. Followed by a televised one-hour special broadcast for cable TV after each tournament/session which consists of heavily edited footage of highlight runs, hard shots, and special moments, all done with quality expert commentary.

It would be a massive undertaking... but might prove to be a way to bring people back to the game, as well as generate new interest.

jaetee said:

Maybe something like a team based International league might make Pool interesting for a wider audience? I'm thinking something along the APA or BCA League framework, but at a much higher player level and with televised presence.

Call it the International Pocket Billiards League. Approach the top pocket billiard sanctioning body in each country that has one, and offer for them to field a team for a series of Continent-based tournaments, followed by a final tournament of champions.

Viewing could be organized in tiers, to accommodate different preferred viewing styles, and maybe foster hype... For example, offer pay-per-view online for individuals to watch full length matches, or free streaming video to pool halls who agree to show matches on their television screens. Followed by a televised one-hour special broadcast for cable TV after each tournament/session which consists of heavily edited footage of highlight runs, hard shots, and special moments, all done with quality expert commentary.

It would be a massive undertaking... but might prove to be a way to bring people back to the game, as well as generate new interest.

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Your idea has merit. I like it! :smile:

Straightpool_99 said:

Pool is not dead. Pool is fun and popular all over the world. Sadly pro pool will probably not attract major corporate sponsorship in the foreseeable future. To most people, pool is boring to watch. This is a matter of fact, not opinion. Pool is loosing interest because of increased competition from all kinds of sports and activities. Instead of mindlessly running around, changing everything we should focus on enhancing pools best aspects. That means making changes only to make the games themselves better and not sell out and appeal to some lowbrow common denominator.Some claim that the solutions to (pro) pools problems is to focus on characters and conflict, and de facto turn it into wrestling. I say that this is the wrong thing to focus on. Pool should be strengthened by having a unified leadership which standardized equipment and rules. Rules should be made, not to speed things up and make outcomes random, but to reward skill. We don't need flashing lights and all sorts of gimmics.

Neither does pool need to be "cleaned up" by some jargon spewing corporate zombies into some bland disneyesque activity meant to keep teens from masturbating. Pool has a bit of "darkness" to it. That is one of the things that make it fascinating and unique. There is room for a strong unified organization as well as more underground gambling matches, but official tournaments should be strongly regulated. There should be a ranking system etc.

Pool has a lot more competition now than it did in the past, and probably will remain a niche sport with a limited but faithful following. Lets not sell out the integrity (what little remains) of the sport but instead strengthen the unique characteristics of pool and make it stand out that way.

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I understand what you mean by 'boring to watch'. However I'd like to know exact TV viewer figures that actually think this. The reason why is because Pool is very rarely on TV and when it is the Mosconi Cup is the show piece. I don't think any viewer thinks the Mosconi Cup is boring to watch?

But as you mention, ted are many competitors for air time nowadays so the key factor is getting viewers to switch channel from XFACTOR to the Mosconi Cup. Now that's a massive challenge - but doable :thumbup:

What I tend to pick up here on AZ is that there's lots of knowledge floating around.

I propose that a few well dressed individuals are selected to set up a THINK TANK and get some of these ideas and others formalised...

I'm your huckleberry :thumbup:

jaetee said:

Maybe something like a team based International league might make Pool interesting for a wider audience? I'm thinking something along the APA or BCA League framework, but at a much higher player level and with televised presence.

Call it the International Pocket Billiards League. Approach the top pocket billiard sanctioning body in each country that has one, and offer for them to field a team for a series of Continent-based tournaments, followed by a final tournament of champions.

Viewing could be organized in tiers, to accommodate different preferred viewing styles, and maybe foster hype... For example, offer pay-per-view online for individuals to watch full length matches, or free streaming video to pool halls who agree to show matches on their television screens. Followed by a televised one-hour special broadcast for cable TV after each tournament/session which consists of heavily edited footage of highlight runs, hard shots, and special moments, all done with quality expert commentary.

It would be a massive undertaking... but might prove to be a way to bring people back to the game, as well as generate new interest.

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I was having some fun with this and thinking that the above sounds a lot like the "World Cup" of pool.... But, how about Pocket Billiards in the Olympics? Imagine a Gold-Silver-Bronze for 8-ball, 9-ball, 14.1, one pocket, a subjective trick shot competition, and an all-around gold, All in high-def!

Who decides on Olympic sports...

How big was Pool....ever ?

RRfireblade said:

How big was Pool....ever ?

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There was a period in this country, between the late 1860's and the 1930's, when news of billiards championships took precedence over some war news and Willie Mosconi outdrew the Giants. Ralph Greenleaf made over $200,000 a year in exhibitions!

RRfireblade said:

How big was Pool....ever ?

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:smile:

In the 1980's there was the Men's Pro Billiards Association and the Women's Pro Billiards Association...if I'm wrong...I'm close. Maybe it was just the PBA?

On the East Coast there were big tournaments every other week. You could pick and choose.

Then of course there was the Red's tournament in Houston Texas.

I used to get flyers in the mail and results every month. I believe it was $25 for membership in the MPBA...or maybe it was the PBA. There was just big tournaments and money flowing every where I went.

Sometimes both the men and womens tournaments were held at the same time and same place...like the U.S. Open a long time ago. Heck, even Luther Lassiter still played until the mid 1980's.

Pool was on TV and the MIZ was doing his commercial on TV. Those were the days....:smile:

Johnnyt said:

A lot the things I thought that could make pro pool a legit sport when I came on here 10+ years ago are the same today. Only now I've lost all hope. The only difference is today I feel pro pool will never get much bigger than it has been and probably much worse. Tournaments with 25k or more are just about finished. There still is no pro pool organization. Promoters and players are still pulling in different directions. Players are still doing biz at tournaments no matter how big they are. Casinos still won't take bets on pool...who can blame them. Very little new blood has come into the sport. The gate at pro tournaments amounts to about nothing. There are still no big sponsors like Ford, Nike, Bud, and the like. Ad a very poor economy and you have enough nails to seal pro pool in its coffin for good. Johnnyt

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At worst pool can always live in the cracks and crevices of our broken society.
I think it was 1859 when a championship was played for 15,000$. Phalen was one of the players. God that makes me laugh sadly !
Back in the depression the poolhalls were full. But today there is just too many other distractions even if you are poor.
"Pool is like a 400 year old sprout, never gets any bigger but never goes away." ~ Oldzilla

:groucho:

JCIN said:

I don't think pro pool is dead. Its changing though. It will get smaller in the future. I think this will actually be good for the few elite players. It will suck for those trying to break in or who have managed to eke out a living on the edges.

The old model of big expensive tournaments that do not make money for anyone is obviously dying. For any major changes to take place there must be an organization with money, brains and skill to build something. I have yet to see anything with all three step up and take a shot in the US.

The players could do it themselves if they wanted it bad enough.

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Bella Don't Cry said:

This would be one direction and would work if players want it badly enough.
There are several routes, but of course to organisation, time and money...
I have 2 out of 3 :thumbup:

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Hmmmm...

I may have enough determination, brains, skill and a well-defined concept (solutions)...

Anybody open-minded, with some money and a true interest in betterment of our beloved sport - send me a PM :welcome:

Ooohhhh: and I am dead serious about it

pooler said:

Hmmmm...

I may have enough determination, brains, skill and a well-defined concept (solutions)...

Anybody open-minded, with the money and a true interest in betterment of our beloved sport - send me a PM :welcome:

Ooohhhh: and I am dead serious about it

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YEP! I am :thumbup:

The Renfro said:

CSI may be on the right track going forward.... 16 player invitational round robin events would be the right way to ensure that every match will be finals quality and that you can promote to draw a spectator-ship based on knowing what players will be in your field... Offer pro-am charity events and dinners for VIPs to start the week and get the PR wheels rolling.....

What this will do is force a move to a middle proving ground... Something that breaches the gap between amateur and pro... You want to make the 16 well then you have to earn your way on to it... Maybe CSI needs to look to using the new American Rotation league or the USAPL to create the path from APA 7 to 1 of the top 16 that gets to be considered a professional player.... You try and make the show a few years and finally have to give up the dream like all those failed Q-School also rans in golf......

Pool is not dead is just has a disconnect from the bottom to the top... A movie will help the bottom as more people go pick up a cue but it's not gonna help the pro game by organizing it and making it profitable for more than 10 US Pros a year.....

The main issue I see is how Mark picks his 16... It's his show and coming out of the gate he has carte blanche on picking who he feels are the best players for the show.. If your attitude or antics or record keeps you out so be it..... Going forward tho I think there has to be some way to invite the top 16 players on a formula that takes into account skill and success with other variables that would make for a tournament worth watching and attending for spectators and vendors alike.... I am not Mark but here are my 16..... If any could not make it I would have 16 alternates.....
This list includes non US players and maybe should be limited to North American citizens if you are trying to build pro pool out side of the WPA's mission statement to promote pool in Europe and Asia......


I see great promise in a new model... Sometimes the heard has to be culled so that it remains healthy or the entire heard ends up barely surviving on crumbs......

Chris

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This. Lets do this!

RRfireblade...At the turn of the 20th century, there were three mainstream American sports...boxing, horse racing, and billiards. All three were covered almost daily in the major media. Boxing and horse racing are still very prominent in the media...pool...almost never! What a difference 100 years makes! :frown:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

RRfireblade said:

How big was Pool....ever ?

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