Can Pro players get jobs and still compete?

naji said:

Pro players that know everything about pool and analyse the way they shoot and know why they miss if they ever did, should be able to compete with minimal warm ups preferably an hour or two before match, that is 9 , or 10 ball. For one pocket now warm up is needed, it is different, because 90% of shots in general (normal games) are short easy shots and banks so a pro will not miss short range shots.

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Of course one-pocket is actually a children's game. My six-year old nephew can make those "short easy shots". His five-year old sister runs racks of 14.1 because it has lots of short easy shots too.

I don't have any idea what this has to do with the thread topic, but...

I think he just meant practice wise. Once a person obtains the level of playing that a Pro does, it doesn't take that long to warm up for a game or Tourney.

So the idea of having to practice how ever many hours a day to keep in shape and not being able to work a job because of it.

Thats how I read it anyway.

Blue Hog ridr said:

I think he just meant practice wise. Once a person obtains the level of playing that a Pro does, it doesn't take that long to warm up for a game or Tourney.

So the idea of having to practice how ever many hours a day to keep in shape and not being able to work a job because of it.

Thats how I read it anyway.

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I think I will have to disagree, ask CJ how much he has had to play just to get where he is now compared to the CJ of the 90s. I am sure he would agree he is at least the 8 ball under his old self. I think to stay in top shape you have to play every day and play competitive fairly often to stay sharp. I believe that the pros can work and keep sharp, but not a 8-5 40hr week regular job. If they are like JA and have a business of their own like a pool room it is very possible to achieve working and staying sharp.

CJ Wiley said:

... Matt Braun is the only one left that understands how it's done with 'Challenge of Champions'......and I doubt if he'll share his techniques. ...

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Matt Braun and his wife sold Billiards International and all of its intellectual properties to Gregg Hovey (former Olhausen president) two years ago.

For 2013, the men's Challenge of Champions was dropped from the events produced by Billiards International for showing on ESPN. The Women's Tournament of Champions, the World Cup of Trick Shots, and Trick Shot Magic were played in 2013 and were moved from the Mohegan Sun casino in CT to Springfield, MA. Hovey's current deal with ESPN calls for just 9 hours of programming per year (3 events). The women's and trick shot events always drew higher ratings than the men's event, which, therefore, was axed.

Hovey is hopeful that he will be able to add events for 2014 and bring back the Challenge of Champions.

[Info drawn from an article in the December, 2013 Billiards Digest.]

Scott Frost

Sorry...I meant Robert Frost is commentating with Ray on the live stream at the Music City Open. He just said that he plays at a higher level when he has a job and income. He said it is nonsense when people say that you can't play at a high level and have a job...interesting!!!

Wedge

Wedge said:

Sorry...I meant Robert Frost is commentating with Ray on the live stream at the Music City Open. He just said that he plays at a higher level when he has a job and income. He said it is nonsense when people say that you can't play at a high level and have a job...interesting!!!

Wedge

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Whenever I saw Louie play his best it was when he would ask one of us for a bankroll to put in his pocket while he played. Gave him a comfort level.

You just had to keep a closer eye on him after that though. :wink:

Same goes for having a job. Not playing worrying if you win or lose and you might be sleeping in your car or losing your car could weigh on a lot of people.

the greatest ingredient in any success story is sacrifice.

jalapus logan said:

But is the struggle worth it? I say yes. Ars gratia artis. If folks were content to wait on society to appreciate greatness or insight, then many of our modern amenities would not exist and historians would have much less ink to spill...

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Yes, it's worth it, without struggle there would be no victory, without pain there would be no relief and without death there would be no life....the greatest ingredient in any success story is sacrifice - the situation in pro pool is not the exception, it's the sample example.

'The Game is the Teacher'

.this is what Earl is doing and it's obviously working, and will continue to.

eddie0776 said:

I think I will have to disagree, ask CJ how much he has had to play just to get where he is now compared to the CJ of the 90s. I am sure he would agree he is at least the 8 ball under his old self. I think to stay in top shape you have to play every day and play competitive fairly often to stay sharp. I believe that the pros can work and keep sharp, but not a 8-5 40hr week regular job. If they are like JA and have a business of their own like a pool room it is very possible to achieve working and staying sharp.

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Yes, that's true, to play that extra ball better I'd have to gamble three weeks every day. Practicing has it's ups and downs, and it will not get me in top competitive gear.....this takes playing champion players on a regular basis which isn't possible at this time.

I also believe that playing "one foul" rules is limiting to your overall game. To play the absolute top level someone must play the way the game was intended.....2 foul shoot out rules so you have to fine tune shot making, especially long shots off the end rail.

Black-Balled said:

Or the other side of the coin...I will say more when I get a moment!!!!!!

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I think you can work a full time job and play pool. I don't thing you can work a full time job and play great though. Where are the practice hours gonna fit in? Shane hits ball 6 and 8 hours a day. He practices more than everyone which results in "great pool player". This game is so ridiculously tough that I believe it's asking way to much to play the game at a top level, working full time...

bdorman said:

Of course one-pocket is actually a children's game. My six-year old nephew can make those "short easy shots". His five-year old sister runs racks of 14.1 because it has lots of short easy shots too.

I don't have any idea what this has to do with the thread topic, but...

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My point is 9, 10 ball games requires high skill level in making balls and position play. If a player does not have the time to keep practicing 1st thing that suffers stroke which will effect long range shots and shots that needs to be hit with speed. But one pocket tends to keep part time pro players a live and kicking.

Physical conditioning may play a vital role

naji said:

Pro players that know everything about pool and analyse the way they shoot and know why they miss if they ever did, should be able to compete with minimal warm ups preferably an hour or two before match, that is 9 , or 10 ball. For one pocket now warm up is needed, it is different, because 90% of shots in general (normal games) are short easy shots and banks so a pro will not miss short range shots.

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When I was in top tournament form I could get away with practicing an hour a day (two or three a few days before competing). I also ran CJ's Billiard Palace all through my professional career.

It would be no problem to work 40 hours a week and play championship pool at the same time. Physical conditioning may play a vital role, and the player would have plenty of time to exercise 20 - 60 minutes a day as well.

CJ Wiley said:

When I was in top tournament form I could get away with practicing an hour a day (two or three a few days before competing). I also ran CJ's Billiard Palace all through my professional career.

It would be no problem to work 40 hours a week and play championship pool at the same time. Physical conditioning may play a vital role, and the player would have plenty of time to exercise 20 - 60 minutes a day as well.

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tap, tap, tap!

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CJ Wiley said:

When I was in top tournament form I could get away with practicing an hour a day (two or three a few days before competing). I also ran CJ's Billiard Palace all through my professional career.

It would be no problem to work 40 hours a week and play championship pool at the same time. Physical conditioning may play a vital role, and the player would have plenty of time to exercise 20 - 60 minutes a day as well.

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But, C.J., your job was in a pool room. That is different than working a 9-5 job flipping burgers or selling hot dogs on the street and trying to keep in stroke to compete in, say, Qatar or Colombia or Indonesia or Korea or Philippines.

I do, however, believe there are some players who maybe have been playing since they were a child and have hit hundreds of thousands of balls in their life, that it doesn't take too long for them to obtain their championship stroke.

Today, though, to compete with Filipinos, Asian countrymen, and Europeans, one has to be pretty sharp with their skills to win. My belief is that a person who's working a job 9-5 and practicing 20 hours a week won't cut the mustard against, say, Thorsten or the Filipino champion of the month. In this regard, why pursue a pool career or profession, one that would cost about 20- to $30,000 per year to compete around the world if you're flipping burgers or selling hot dogs on the street, only to lose when you get there.

IOW, there is no way to make a living in pool if you're making minimum wage in a 9-5 job. Again, most traditional employers would not like an employee to take off every month to attend a pool tournament overseas. I guess it's a Catch-22.

eddie0776 said:

Jam, I have to ask. What in your opinion is the answer to fixing the Pro Pool situation? You have been there with Keith and seen what it takes to make it on the road...hustling, gambling and must place in tourneys to live. Do you think that pool will ever loose that image? I would love to see a Pro tour like PGA has with nice payouts, but I don't think that will ever come to be due to lack of interest by sponsers. I know CJ is working on something, but I am curious to hear what you think will fix it. I am not hear to demean any pro (POS or great person) lord knows I have known plenty of pros that do it on their own. I have backed and helped several pros, but it wasn't just because I liked them, I was looking for a ROI. Thats the business end of it and anyone who says otherwise is either well beyond means or not telling the truth.

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Eddie, Lou Butera several decades ago, when he was following the tournament trail, stated publicly that Brunswick and the other industry members of that era should be hosting and sponoring annual tournaments for professional play. To bring up some of today's current names in the industry, thinking like Lou Butera, he meant to have like a Brunswick Open, Gabriel Championship, Rasson 9-Ball Tournament, Annual Simonis Tournament for the Champions, Diamond 9-Ball Tournament, et cetera, et cetera. Even when Lou Butera was hitting 'em, the industry members didn't seem to come together to support professional pool, though they did infuse more money then than they do today in professional pool.

You go to the industry and suggest this, and they might reply, "What's in it for me?" kind of the same replies you hear professional pool players touting today when asked to be loyal to existing pool promoters by making their presence at the event. There is most definitely proverbial line in the sand here, and it is probably more like a Berlin Wall today, thanks to Bonus Ball's deliberate-with-malice-aforethought segregation of Bonus Ball players and the rest of the existing fractured pool industry in America.

In order to make all sides content, one needs to develop a business plan that will benefit all parties, and this ain't easy, considering pool has a track record. If a prospective non-pool-industry sponsor was to read this forum, they wouldn't touch pool with a 10-foot pole.

A 12-stop tour, one a month, is doable. The question is how much would it cost. To ship tables in, eqiupment, rentals, venue costs, et cetera, is sky high. However, I do wonder if there are 12 pool rooms in this country willing to host a tour stop if there could be an ROI for their table loss time.

I can't do the math right now, as math ain't my strong suit, but I think a 64-man event is possible for each stop. As an aside, Joe Tucker is currently running a tour which could be used as a platform for qualifying or eligibility to compete in one of these stops.

Advertisement is key to get the message out there. So often in the pool world, nobody advertises and spreads the word, and when the events happen, very few show up. Pool needs deseparately a PR machine. This is very, very important before anything transpires. This prospective professional pool tour must have a PR person behind them. In my opinion, this is what has plagued pool for decades is no PR beforehand.

Of course, non-pool-industry sponsorship is the gold ring. It must start out small. Once the numbers are all in alignment, then you approach the pool industry members, show them the business plan, let them see the numbers, and ask them which of the 12 stops would they be willing to hang their name on.

Now, before somebody rips apart my hypothetical business plan here, this is a very rough draft, which would need input from several entities to make it work, several entities with expertise, with public relations being at the top and VERY IMPORTANT!

Now let's get to the players themselves. Of course, there has to be a dress code. That's a given. My idea for a dress code for pool would be collared shorts (no T-shirts), slacks (no jeans), and leather shoes (no athletic shoes), much like a golfer. Good opportunity here for clothing manufacturers and a shoe company.

The BCA Open used to be a 64-man field, with half going to the Europeans and other international players, and the other half going to Americans. The selection was skewed and unfair, the times I observed it.

My tour concept would reserve, say, 10 spots for Mark Wilson's college crew, 10 spots for Joe Tucker's tour, 10 spots for Shannon and Marge's tour, 10 spots for Mike Zuglan's Joss tour, et cetera. My thought is that a non-American cannot complete on this tour unless they play in one of the above tournaments. They can't just fly in from Germany, get off the plane, and play in this 12-stop tour.

If the business plan was written out to show a profit to pool room owners, good exposure to pool industry members because of the quality advertisement in online, print, and TV media, and new non-pool-industry member wanting to devote some funds to get exposure, this could work. Again, a strong PR person is needed to effect this to happen.

Somebody has to sell this to the pool room owners and make the numbers work so that they benefit from the exposure to the media as well as an ROI for each event. Pool rooms I know of that might be able to handle this would be Snooker's in Providence, RI, Champion's in Frederick, MD, Q-Master's in Virginia, Fargo's pool room (can't remember the name of the town), et cetera. I'm only familiar with my side of the country. I'm sure there others in the Midwest and on the West Coast. We only need 12 to make the 12-stop tour.

I can assure you that the professional players and aspiring pros would follow this tour like trained little pigs. This tour could be a ranking system. A business plan would need to be developed, and there must be a strong PR machine. Before big events, pros could put on exhibitions in the town where the pool room is, which is excellent advertising. Getting the word out there is key. The funds to pay for the pro's exhibition would come out of the previous tournament's purse. The winner and/or runner up would be required to put on this exhibition before the next event, and they would be paid for it as a part of their tournament winnings.

What's going on today in the pool world is not attractive to new money and/or new players and/or new pool room owners. Maybe start out the first year with 32 players and move up. I never would like to see this player roster be as large as the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship. Again, a strong PR machine is key. This is where Bonus Ball screwed up, and the IPT, well, their problem lie in too much too soon. That is why I say maybe start out with 32 players.

So there you have my thoughts on this fine Saturday morning. I'm sure the Negative Nellies and Doubting Thomases will shoot me down, but that's okay.

JAM said:

..... I'm sure the Negative Nellies and Doubting Thomases will shoot me down, but that's okay.

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I for one will not do that... I like the basic structure.... could even throw in something like the APT was doing with the East Coast Championship ..... have 12 events the top four finisher in each qualify for a larger event. possibly use dollars from the 12 events to help fund the larger end of year ... add to that 16 seeded (sp?) players and there is a 64 man field at a year end event.

I like it ... start small... kind of old school (the Mike and Buddy show days....) and see what happens:thumbup:

PETROBOY said:

I like this idea as well jam, small is the way to go maybe with a 64 player field the bottom 4 would have to qualify in a monthly qualifier tournament and this would allow new players a chance to get in.


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The beauty of this tour, limiting it to a 32- or 64-man field, is that it could all be accomplished on a weekend, allowing the player to hold down a part-time or full-time job. IOW, they could supplement their pool income by working or, in the case of Mark Wilson's crew, going to school to get an education..

Personally, I'd like to limit membership to Americans only, but I know that won't go very far on this forum.

My reasoning, however, for doing so is to cultivate a new breed of American pros. As I have stated many times, the existing lot of American pros is diminishing. We need to built up our stock. USA, ALL THE WAY!

CJ Wiley said:

When I was in top tournament form I could get away with practicing an hour a day (two or three a few days before competing). I also ran CJ's Billiard Palace all through my professional career.

It would be no problem to work 40 hours a week and play championship pool at the same time. Physical conditioning may play a vital role, and the player would have plenty of time to exercise 20 - 60 minutes a day as well.

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Thanks CJ; i guess the question is the definition of championship pool, to what level? Consistent practice makes it easy on the brain to fetch all check lists quickly and accurately; I would agree with you if players know themselves, but a lot of players do not, i site an example, when we are young we would do things like jump, or lift heavy weight, or......, now if we attempt the same thing we would have a sore back, or twisted neck or something; in pool, when a player practices daily for long time, and go to tournaments regularly, he shoots fast and quick in thinking; the same player if he does not practice as much, will copy the same style; but will proof fatal. Human memory needs refresh all the time to enable it to quickly fetch those pool check lists; with rusty players, slowing down the speed and take time to think will do magic.
I know some will say, if you change your style of play you will be doomed, but not in this case. I wish Efren slow down his game a bit, i am sure it will help him not miss much!!! IMO

Wedge said:

Sorry...I meant Robert Frost is commentating with Ray on the live stream at the Music City Open. He just said that he plays at a higher level when he has a job and income. He said it is nonsense when people say that you can't play at a high level and have a job...interesting!!!

Wedge

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And he still finds the time to write the most amazing poetry!

Pros and Jobs?

Getting enough time off to go to tournaments and keeping your job is one of the biggest problems.