Pivot Point

naji said:
Just remember, you will not be able to put a lot of english using PP. When you strike CB with a cue, you impart translation force (moves cue forward), and rotational force (spins) CB. PP it seems to use a lot of the cue force toward translation energy, and some for rotational, parallel english, seem to impart high rotational energy much higher than PP english, Efren and many top players use parallel english for high english display of CB power! Of course no english is best if you can help it.


My advise! buy OB2 (LD) and learn to play parallel english or close to parallel, as well pivot at all bridge lengths (learn the cue at every possible way) 4000 shots possibilities.
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Efren doesn't use parallel English... He's the one who taught me BHE.

Also parallel english is only really helpful for low deflection shafts, or atleast it can be used more successfully for a wider range of shots on low deflection shafts.

This is because the pivot point is farther back on LD shafts so it allows you to be closer to the correct line with a shorter bridge when parallel shifting.

The farther from center you strike the ball, the farther parallel shifting will take you from the correct line and the more likely you will be to miss.

Jaden
 
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Exactly..

DTL said:
Right..........basically your falling down on the shot with an already angled cue to the desired amount of english needed while the V part of an open bridge (or loop of a closed bridge) falls on the shot line.
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Exactly!!!!

I am pretty sure that this is how Busty does it. If you watch him with this knowledge, you can see it....

I DO know that a LOT of the filipino players do use it.

It's funny because you can know where a cue's pivot point is by seeing which part of the shaft is in line with the shot when the shot is successful.

You can tell if someone is using BHE (either consciously or subconsciously) by seeing if their bridge hand is also at the pivot point.

People using BHE subconsciously is a reason why they become perplexed when they miss a shot while jacked up over a ball or when an interfering ball prevents them from using their normal bridge length position. If they become aware of BHE and that they are using it, they can adjust in those situations fairly easily. To adjust in these situations accurately is one of the main reasons that I mark the pivot point on my shaft. It allows me to more readily keep that point in line with the shot while moving my bridge hand around.

Jaden

I've surprised many people by being able to pick up their cue and use extreme english with it the first shot. That's because I can see where the pivot point is by watching them shoot some side spin shots with it and then I know where to bridge with that cue using BHE. KK9's buddy had me shoot with his cue and I did that.
 
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Jaden said:
Efren doesn't use parallel English... He's the one who taught me BHE.

Also parallel english is only really helpful for low deflection shafts, or atleast it can be used more successfully for a wider range of shots on low deflection shafts.

This is because the pivot point is farther back on LD shafts so it allows you to be closer to the correct line with a shorter bridge when parallel shifting.

The farther from center you strike the ball, the farther parallel shifting will take you from the correct line and the more likely you will be to miss.

Jaden
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Actually Efren use every possible way , parallel, pivot, not pivot, you name it he knows all. But to have CB spin in reverse with high spin and speed requires parallel hit. Not sure if you watch him last night! lots of english power!
 
Naji....I have an OB 2 that I play with quite a bit. I am practicing nearly every day. Only been playing about 2 years. There is SO much for me to learn, and being a bit of a perfectionist doesnt help! I am very demanding of myself and i try not to get too frustrated with slow progress. Pool is DAMNED HARD to do at a high level. My hard head will not quit tho!! Thank you and all those who have posted here. I have alot of great info to wrap my head around.
 
I always say...

Doodysquat said:
Naji....I have an OB 2 that I play with quite a bit. I am practicing nearly every day. Only been playing about 2 years. There is SO much for me to learn, and being a bit of a perfectionist doesnt help! I am very demanding of myself and i try not to get too frustrated with slow progress. Pool is DAMNED HARD to do at a high level. My hard head will not quit tho!! Thank you and all those who have posted here. I have alot of great info to wrap my head around.
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I always say that excellence in this game is 95% knowledge and 10% execution...

Most people have no understanding of how much knowledge is required to play pool at a high level.

Forget about aiming systems and BHE etc... just playing the game naturally at a high level requires an amazing amount of knowledge.

When you add the other stuff on top of that requisite knowledge, it becomes mind boggling...
:grin-square::eek::grin-square:

Jaden
 
Jaden said:
BHE is about using the discovered and known pivot point of the shaft to adjust for side spin while using the natural aim line.

It doesn't require that you get down on the shot first.

Here is one example of how to use BHE without getting down on the shot and then pivoting.

I call it bridge lining.

If you look at the shot and determine the aimline from center ball what you would do is grab the cue from the pivot point and as you step into the shot with the english you want to apply, ensure that your bridge hand is on that line. IOW the point of the shaft that is the pivot point is placed in line with a center ball shot AS you step into the shot with the tip of the cue pointing at the place on the CB that you wish to strike.

This would allow you to use BHE without pivoting after being down on the shot.

Jaden
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We may have to disagree on this point. The term "backhand english" refers to the method of getting down on the ball aiming through center ball with your bridge on the pivot point then pivoting the cue using you "back hand" without moving your bridge to apply english. If there is no pivoting of the cue once you're down on the shot, you're not using backhand english, whether you are using your knowledge of your cue's pivot point to line up the shot or not.

In summary...

pivot point - a property of the shaft; the point at which cue ball squirt and the cue angle cancel each other out, sending the cue ball on an initial line running from the pivot point to the center of the cue ball.

backhand english - the method of aiming with the bridge on the shot line at the pivot point then moving the back hand left or right to applying english to the cue ball; this method works because of the existence of a fixed pivot point on every cue.

fronthand english - the method of aiming with the bridge and back hand on the shot line then moving the bridge hand left or right to apply english; the idea here is to effectively pivot the cue about a pivot point that is further back than the bridge hand, which is the case for "LD" shafts.

parallel english - a bit of a misnomer, but is commonly used to refer to settling into the shot with both hands on the intended stoke line, i.e. already compensating for squirt, swerve, and throw. I think this is descriptive of one of the possible visualizations that can be used: imagining the cue ball traveling parallel to the stroke line and making adjustments relative to that imagined line.
 
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Ok then don't call it BHE... call it PP aiming.

Matt said:
We may have to disagree on this point. The term "backhand english" refers to the method of getting down on the ball aiming through center ball with your bridge on the pivot point then pivoting the cue using you "back hand" without moving your bridge to apply english. If there is no pivoting of the cue once you're down on the shot, you're not using backhand english, whether you are using your knowledge of your cue's pivot point to line up the shot or not.

In summary...

pivot point - a property of the shaft; the point at which cue ball squirt and the cue angle cancel each other out, sending the cue ball on an initial line running from the pivot point to the center of the cue ball.

backhand english - the method of aiming with the bridge on the shot line at the pivot point then moving the back hand left or right to applying english to the cue ball; this method works because of the existence of a fixed pivot point on every cue.

fronthand english - the method of aiming with the bridge and back hand on the shot line then moving the bridge hand left or right to apply english; the idea here is to effectively pivot the cue about a pivot point that is further back than the bridge hand, which is the case for "LD" shafts.

parallel english - a bit of a misnomer, but is commonly used to refer to settling into the shot with both hands on the intended stoke line, i.e. already compensating for squirt, swerve, and throw. I think this is descriptive of one of the possible visualizations that can be used: imagining the cue ball traveling parallel to the stroke line and making adjustments relative to that imagined line.
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OK then don't call it BHE.

Call it Pivot point aiming or PPA.

BHE defined as such would qualify as PPA although not all PPA would be BHE.

The point is that you can use the pivot point to easily and readily adjust for spin on most shots knowing what the natural center ball aimline is.

This allows you to use aiming systems with english accurately and it gives you a starting point for learning to adjust for soft shots and far shots and shots that you can't keep a level cue, etc.... as you advance. You aren't guessing at 1500 variables as to which one caused you to miss.

Jaden
 
Understanding PPA.

Understanding the pivot point and the ability to use PPA gives you advantages even if you don't directly utilize them with BHE.

For instance, it was mentioned that FHE is used when you don't bridge at the PP especially on LD shafts that have a farther back PP than is traditionally used as a bridge length. (I did also do a thread that describes a method for using BHE on a LD shaft or ANY shaft that you want to or have to use a different bridge position on.)

Many people who use FHE do it instinctively but aren't really understanding what is going on. Some people subscribe to this being better than knowing. I don't.

The problem with relying on instinct is when something goes wrong, you have no recourse and are basically just screwed until you get over it and often times crap like that gets in your head and makes it worse.

By understanding PPA and what is going on, having the ability to mark and purposefully use the PP, you give yourself fallback when instinct fails you.

No one says you have to purposefully use it all the time, but to say that you shouldn't learn about it and understand it because it interferes with your instinct is nonsensical to me.

(not accusing anyone of the above ^).

Jaden
 
Jaden said:
OK then don't call it BHE.

Call it Pivot point aiming or PPA.

BHE defined as such would qualify as PPA although not all PPA would be BHE.

The point is that you can use the pivot point to easily and readily adjust for spin on most shots knowing what the natural center ball aimline is.

This allows you to use aiming systems with english accurately and it gives you a starting point for learning to adjust for soft shots and far shots and shots that you can't keep a level cue, etc.... as you advance. You aren't guessing at 1500 variables as to which one caused you to miss.

Jaden
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I'm fine with that. The reason I wanted to clarify the terminology is because the original post in this thread was asking what a pivot point is. I'm not arguing that knowing what a pivot point is and knowing where it is on the cue your shooting with is unimportant. I think that the knowledge you are sharing with everyone is good; I just think it's important to use consistent terminology when explaining concepts.
 
DTL said:
Read my last post. One can pivot the back hand on the way down (you could call it an air pivot)...........a lot of pros do this, some don't even know they do.
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I think that the "tell" of whether someone is aiming down the shot line and pivoting (whether it's in the air or not) versus aiming down the stroke line would be their body position. If their feet and body are always in the same position relative to their stroke, I would say it is likely that they are lining everything up according to their intended stroke line ("parallel english") rather than lining up on the shot line. I'm not sure how you would go about it, but if you could measure the distance between the hip and wrist of each pro when they are down in their standard stance when they strike the ball, you might get some interesting insight into how they visualize each shot.
 
Doodysquat said:
Naji....I have an OB 2 that I play with quite a bit. I am practicing nearly every day. Only been playing about 2 years. There is SO much for me to learn, and being a bit of a perfectionist doesnt help! I am very demanding of myself and i try not to get too frustrated with slow progress. Pool is DAMNED HARD to do at a high level. My hard head will not quit tho!! Thank you and all those who have posted here. I have alot of great info to wrap my head around.
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Thanks, Doodysquat; I agree, but you are lucky to have AZB, in my past 37 years i was doing it wrong, only last few years when AZB and Dr. Dave started. Do me a favor, i apologize, if your level is higher, just concentrate on your stroke straightness without english at all speeds, other wise, you will always get unexpected results, hence inconsistency. Always make sure to practice both sides cuts, left and right hand, to ensure you are not steering.

I really thing, you should never practice easy shots; always long and severe cuts left and right so you learn and get used to the riggers required for those shots. and learn your stroke, so to make it a habit for each and every shot when playing a match.
 
I agree.

Matt said:
I'm fine with that. The reason I wanted to clarify the terminology is because the original post in this thread was asking what a pivot point is. I'm not arguing that knowing what a pivot point is and knowing where it is on the cue your shooting with is unimportant. I think that the knowledge you are sharing with everyone is good; I just think it's important to use consistent terminology when explaining concepts.
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I agree....

I had never seen the concept of PPA (pivot point aiming) referred to as anything other than BHE or a modification there of, but in retrospect I think that clarifying PPA versus BHE will be beneficial for everyone to learn and understand both.

Especially because there are stroke limitations in BHE. The body positioning requirements become more stringent to avoid the arm coming in contact with the body or limiting the amount of English that can be used.

Also pivoting the arm introduces more movement and makes stroking consistently more difficult. It's not easy to train yourself, once you pivot your arm into position for the spin you want, to keep it locked in the new position and to minimize additional movement that can throw off the shot.

These potential issues with BHE may discourage people from using it, so by clarifying the definition of BHE versus other versions of PPA, we can potentially discourage people from writing off PPA because of the limitations of BHE.

Jaden

p.s. also I'd like to add that describing PPA separately from BHE and then introducing BHE as one possible method of utilizing PPA, it is easier to accept PPA as working because the focus is on staying on the initial aimline with the PP of the cue as opposed to deviating FROM that aimline as with BHE.
 
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Okay, I just saw the rest of this thread.

For a history lesson for those relatively new:

The Aim & Pivot Method to test for the Pivot Point of the stick has been around for two or more decades, as written by Bob Jewett on the Pool & Billiard FAQ. I first saw this FAQ around 1995. Bob Jewett credits Graham Cairns who called it Aim & Pivot a few years earlier.

Using the Pivot Point in your normal game via the Aim & Pivot Point is the way to use this results from this test. This is how I still do squirt compensation if I'm not doing a different pivot aiming system.

Hal Houle popularized to us in the late 90's the term "Backhand English." Most of us on the internet who paid attention to such things already knew about the Aim & Pivot Method, so the term "Backhand English" in of itself was inferior, but very understandable. Aim & Pivot was superior because the Pivot Point was specifically part of the process. The term Backhand English is shown to have been first uttered on the internet by Leon Waki in the early 90's

So which came first? Probably Backhand English, but the Aim & Pivot Method was the first structured analysis for the internet on pivot points and how to use them. As with all other things science-related, Bob Jewett brought it to the masses.

There's the history and timeline.

Freddie
 
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Cornerman said:
... As with all other things science-related, Bob Jewett brought it to the masses. ...
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Well, maybe to some small electronic mass, but as I've pointed out before the first diagram of pivoting I've seen is from 1839. There is also a French book that was a little later that describes fairly completely aim and pivot (but unsurprisingly does not use those words) as how the student should compensate for squirt (which is not called that) for english (but they call it effet) shots.
 
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