Tip hardness and the amount of spin. Is the physics really settled?

Bob Jewett said:

My test does not look at averages. I look only for the best result for each case over several trials. The test checks for the best quality of the draw achieved, which is the ratio of spin to speed. Anyone (and nearly any tip) can get enough draw to bring the cue ball back two diamonds. It takes a high-quality hit to get such draw at a low enough cue ball speed that the object ball doesn't go 6+8 diamonds.

During the test, if the player doesn't have a few miscues, he probably isn't hitting as far down (on average) as he should.

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One must also be very careful to keep the cue as level as possible (or at least at the same elevation) for every shot in the comparison. It is easy to "cheat" with that challenge drill, as demonstrated in the video.

Regards,
Dave

Bob Jewett said:

My test does not look at averages. I look only for the best result for each case over several trials. The test checks for the best quality of the draw achieved, which is the ratio of spin to speed. Anyone (and nearly any tip) can get enough draw to bring the cue ball back two diamonds. It takes a high-quality hit to get such draw at a low enough cue ball speed that the object ball doesn't go 6+8 diamonds.

During the test, if the player doesn't have a few miscues, he probably isn't hitting as far down (on average) as he should.

Click to expand...

I see where you're coming from, but when you have got your 'best result' you still don't know what achieved it.
You cannot say with any certainty it was because of only the tip.

'the best quality of draw' could be got from a number of different factors

Bob Jewett said:

My test does not look at averages. I look only for the best result for each case over several trials. The test checks for the best quality of the draw achieved, which is the ratio of spin to speed. Anyone (and nearly any tip) can get enough draw to bring the cue ball back two diamonds. It takes a high-quality hit to get such draw at a low enough cue ball speed that the object ball doesn't go 6+8 diamonds.

During the test, if the player doesn't have a few miscues, he probably isn't hitting as far down (on average) as he should.

Click to expand...

I was thinking of this yesterday, before I ever saw this thread today.

I was jotting down some thoughts and this is what I had in mind. I haven't really had a chance to think it all out, but it was what I was thinking at the moment while reading another thread.

"Everybody always wants to know what is the "best" tip and I don't think there is an answer.

I think of it as "what tip allows ME to CONTROL the ball the best with MY stroke". Since the tip is the only part of the cue to touch the cue ball, I think it is imperative that you have a tip that allows YOU to "feel" what is happening when the tip connects with the cue ball.

I want "whatever" tip I play with to allow me to hit the extreme edge of the cue ball with a near-full power stroke and not miscue. This is assuming I have hit the ball PROPERLY (stroke, chalked tip, alignment, etc.). If I can do this consistently with CONFIDENCE, I feel that is the "tip for ME". The tip will vary from shaft to shaft because not all shafts, nor tips, play the same.

At the moment, a Milk Dud on a Meucci PRO shaft allows me to do this, but it doesn't feel right on one of my other shafts. The other shaft gives me almost the same "hit" with a TNT Pro Max.

I'm sure I can adjust to any tip as long as I feel "CONFIDENT" that it fits my stroke and playing style.

For ME, the tips that I've found to work best is somewhere in the medium range, but it varies from shaft to shaft."

Bob Jewett said:

Which is why you would like to have a machine do the test and use a single cue with many tips and a lot of tip replacement. And a consistent, automated way of chalking. And a way to clean the cloth and balls after every shot. That's impractical. My test is intended to be quick and practical, and I feel it gives a useful result. Have you tried it?

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The keys are to keep the cue as level as possible on every shot and do a large number of shots with each tip, pushing the miscue limit to the point where about half the shots are miscues. One must also chalk carefully before each shot, especially after a miscue.

If all of this is done carefully, the best you achieve with each tip will be a fairly accurate measure of the "best" possible with each tip for that particular person (or in general if the person is a decent shooter).

Regards,
Dave

Bob Jewett said:

Which is why you would like to have a machine do the test and use a single cue with many tips and a lot of tip replacement. And a consistent, automated way of chalking. And a way to clean the cloth and balls after every shot. And try at least 10 of each kind of tip. That's impractical. My test is intended to be quick and practical, and I feel it gives a useful result.

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Have I tried this test? ...sort of
I used it as an exercise amongst others to establish the limits of my equipment and stroke (I believe it is useful to know what you can and can't achieve)...as I said before,it is a good exercise, just not for a pure tip comparison for draw.

Bob Jewett said:

Two examples of actual applications in the field:

I was giving a lesson on red cloth with red chalk. There were lots of miscues. The soft draw challenge was impossible. A brief change to standard blue Masters made the shot easy but left ugly chalk marks on the table. (After being unable to find red chalk that worked from any local source, the student had his table recovered in green. Delightful spin ensued.)

Occasionally someone will complain about being unable to spin the ball with a particular cue. The soft draw test is one of several tests to try. Problems with a cue may be due to tip diameter or balance but if you make an adjustment (of bridge or timing) you may be able to make the shot work. Of course if it takes a lot of fiddling to make a particular cue work for you, you should use some other cue. The test can figure out whether it's the cue's fault provided that the shooter can change his mechanics enough to accommodate the cue.

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What difference does colour of chalk make? Does patrick know? I fear for him with this news.

Anyway, how does cloth speed come into play? Is your test easier or harder on simonis 860, say?

I know the answer... I do not need a study nor do I need to read anyone else's posts. :smile:

Harder tip = more spin.

I have always kind of felt that way, but a receint change in my game has really shown a light on this subject.

I have been playing pool with a Kamui Hard/Morri Quick for as long as i can remember. And for the most part have always been happy with the results. HOWEVER, if there is one thing that has always been an issue is spinning the cue too far. Too much draw, too much cue ball speed increase when spin is appied and the cue ball hits the rail, etc. So i set out to fix this. I tried to apply less spin, and really tried working on cue delivery speed and niether gave me the results i expected.

So...I thought to myself, if my idea about tip hardness is true, if i went to a softer tip i'd get less action. I installed a Kamui Soft tip. And holy moly, things are way better. I can use the same cue speed before and the cue goes to where i expect more often. I don't over draw, over spin, see cue ball speed up off the rails nearly as much as i use to.

Now all that being said, i like the "hit" and "feel" of the first tip much better, but the results are there. Softer tip, less spin. And for me, more control.

I'm curious to know assuming you have two shafts, one with a soft tip, and one with a harder tip, which tip is more suited to which table. I'm playing in two leagues this summer, and both are on bar boxes, but one cloth is much slower than the other. This will be my first real experience playing on fast cloth and I have two shafts with two different tips (Kamui Black Clear Soft and Kamui Black Clear Medium).

ineedaspot said:

I'm generally skeptical of anecdotal claims, a lot of stuff can be psychological. But this one seems real to me...

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This is exactly what it is. Because we tend to miscue more with hard tips (for a couple of reasons which could be the subject of another thread), we don't hit as near to the edge of the cue ball with hard tips as we do with soft tips. Naturally this results in less spin (and by spin I mean the spin to speed ratio). This all happens subconsciously. You think you are hitting the same spot on the cue ball with a hard tip as with the soft tip but you really aren't. Your subconscious makes the adjustment in your contact point without you realizing it and you will swear up and down it isn't happening--but it is.

In another post you point out that that you still think you get less spin with hard tips even when not hitting near the miscue limits of the cue ball which is a very good point to bring up. IMO this is caused by one of two things. The first is the same as above. I think for many and perhaps even most people when using a hard tip your subconscious will still very often scale you back a tad closer to the center of the cue ball than you intended even for hits that are not near the miscue limit. Perhaps the subconscious could be called "unrealistically paranoid" about miscues in this respect.

The other possibility is that you are just plain wrong about thinking you are getting less draw with hard tips than soft ones even in the cases where you are not hitting close to the miscue limits of the cue ball and you are just somehow biased. Kind of like my buddy (a very smart guy too) who swears and truly and absolutely believes that he literally gets ten times more bad rolls than anyone else when the facts are that he gets the same amounts of good and bad rolls over time as the rest of us. It is amazing how easily subconscious bias changes our perceptions.

In any case, using some of the test methods described in this thread you can very carefully test hard verses soft tips and empirically determine for yourself that they do in fact give you the same amount of spin for the same amount of tip offset from center ball. The problem is that you just aren't always hitting the cue ball where you think you are no matter how much you will swear up and down to yourself that you are. The subconscious mind is extremely powerful, and exceptionally stealthy.

I finally got to testing this matter for myself, and I must say, that the results are quite surprising, atleast for me.


I came up with shots that I was able to hit very consistently, simple shots that come up often, or are just good measurements for spin and CB action overall. I also tested speed control with multiple tips on the same shaft. These tests were performed by me on the same day, same table, Masters chalk wiped on before every shot, on the same 12.5mm Mezz WX700 shaft. Just with different tip hardnesses.

Started out with a Kamui Black Soft that I have played with for a while now, this was the baseline for me personally, because it is the tip I have played with the most
Then went out to cut it off (still 3 layers left to play :frown and changed it to a Kamui Black SS tip that I had taken off another cue a few weeks back, as the owner wanted a Ultraskin Hard put on it. It was still nearly new, like 4 intact layers left after sanding the bottom flat again + the dime ofc.
Back to shooting the same shots again, feel of the tip was interesting, no rattles and a very comfy thump sound to it
I espected to get a tad bit more spin with it as it feels like it grips on the CB like a hungry lion, but it didn't. I did all my tests with it, played with it for a few 9-ball racks, and I just couldn't feel like I was the one controlling the CB anymore. Got trouble drawing on longer shots as I lost my accuracy for the increased power required to stop the CB dead on hit, missed some easy shots that I normally make everytime. It just wasn't for me. Atleast that fact made it a LOT easier to cut off an expensive tip just for personal trial&error testing :grin:

I then had 2 tips to choose from, a Clear Black M and a Pechauer Gold M, I went for the Pechauer, now realising that with just this testing thing in mind I should have gone with the third Kamui, but what can you do
First time I got my hands on a Pechauer tip, and god it feels like pure quality in your hands, the yellow stripe is a nice touch, and the fiber pad that came with it was pretty nice addition too. It is voluntary to put on the fiber pad on at all, but I put it on, Loctite 401 between ferrule and pad, and 454 for the tip. It was easy to work on, cut well on a lathe and all. I took off 2 first layers as the tip taaaaaaaall as a loooong cat meme, and cut the dime with a new razor blade. Burnished very well too.

Back to the table again, and the first few hits with it were quite a shock after the spongy SS. A very solid, yet not rattling hit. Feels good overall, extremely good. A bit harder that expected, if I tried this not knowing it is a medium, I'd probably rate it as hard.
On to the test shots: My favourite test for spin efficiency was Dr. Daves race to the rail by drawing the CB, and this was the most relevant test I did regarding this subject. It was estonishing for me when I went past the SS's result and was still able to get the CB to the rail before the other ball made, and even more so when it did half a dime better than my trusty Soft. It simply is more "spin efficient" than any of those softer tips. This was confirmed on my other draw and follow tests, it always outperformed the others. The feel of the hit was really good for me, I actually like the sharper feel, even when I have always leaned towards softer tips so far. But that's how we are, our preferences change over time, we ourselves change over time and so on, so it's not a biggie for me to go harder on tips

I also tried these test with my Players J/B with a Bakellite tip, and it did well too. Generally it seems that with a very strong hit it spins the CB a lot, and on slower shots it doesn't do that much. Did well on the tests though, it ain't that bad as a playing cue either. But this is quite irrelevant to the test itself as it is a whole different, very thick (14mm) jump and break shaft.

I must admit that I am no professional, my stroke is not perfect and all that, but these tests were done by me not to disclose this matter scientifically, but to find the tip hardness that suits my playing style and my cue the best, and I have found it. It is on the hard side of medium tips, this Pechauer was a pleasant surprise, and I left it on, because it works so well for me When it gets worn down, I'll just put the Clear M on it, and see if it is as good for me as the Pechauer is, if not, I'll buy another goldie then :wink:

I wrote all my notes in finnish, so not many of you folks can read them, but if someone is interested, I could translate 'em and make a more complete spreadsheet of them explaining the test performed and so on. I'll add just a quick explanation and the score given in the end of this post, please ask if interested in these results more deeply, I'll gladly explain them if needed.

Race to the rail:
SS 3 dimes
S 4 dimes
M 4.5 dimes
Bakellite 3.5 dimes

Draw on cut: On this I'll just place them in order wich was best, as it is difficult to explain this test properly without some kind of picture / layout image.

1st. M
2nd. S
3rd: SS
4th. Bakellite

Stopshot test: Scoring: how far measured in dimes I can certainly stop the CB.
SS 4dimes
S 5.5 dimes
M 5.5 dimes
Bakellite 4 dimes

Extreme follow test: Same as before, just placed in winning order, followed by the score in numerical average of 20 shots.

M 6.9
S 6.8
Bakellite 6.8
SS 6

The rest are irrelevant to the spin question, but I'll write 'em up just in case someone cares :grin:
Easy cuts, made with english. 20 shots in total for each tip, score is balls made /20.

M 18/20
S 17/20
SS 16/20
Bakellite 16/20

Position play /10 shots. Directly on the next ball, +- 10 degrees, within 50-80cm range in this 20 degree area. Misses marked after score, overhit +, under as -.

M: 8/10 +-
Bakellite: 8/10 - -
SS: 7/10 + - -
S: 7/10 + - - (and constantly on the limits of succes, therefore last.)


It was a ton of fun testing this for me, and I find it great that I took up with this, as the Soft just isn't quite right for my taste, as this speed control shows. It's a good tip, I like the feel of it, but the harder just makes my game easier and more enjoyable, as I never have have to compensate speed, I just look where I want to get, and that is quite often exactly where I end up in. This feels so great when playing, the cue turns to an extension of your arm, delivering all the right power, spin and precision without thinking of it too much. I like my new tip, and highly suggest doing this test yourself if possible. Money well spent if you find a tip that is just "you", isn't it :wink: