A question for Fran Re: The swipe stroke.

Neil said:

Fran, I don't believe the point of contact is near the center of the cue ball in reality. From your point of view behind the cb, it may appear that way. But, in reality, to swipe, you must angle the cue.

As soon as you angle the cue, the true center of the cb is not where it was from your perspective with a straight cue stroke. The cb center is determined by the angle of approach.

In reality, you are actually hitting just as far off center with a swipe stroke as if you used a parallel stroke.

The difference being in the direction the cb goes from the squirt of the cb. With a parallel cue, the squirt is away from the shot line, and must be compensated for. With a swipe stroke, the squirt is actually closer to the shot line because you are actually stroking the cb down a different line than with the parallel aim. With the swipe stroke, you are close to the same thing as back-hand english.

Click to expand...

I agree with your analysis, but I have a nit to pick about the part in blue. I think the CB center (and effective tip offset) is actually determined by the CB's path, which is parallel to the cue's effective force direction including squirt.

pj <- that oughta clear things up
chgo

Picture turning the cue 90* to the shot & then stroking at the edge of the ball.

That is just intended as a visual aid & is not a depiction of the stroke.

Fran & SmoothStroke are both instructors that have spoken about it as have I.

I personally would not classify the shot shown of Nick Varner as a swipe stroke of any major kind with out knowing if he intended it as it would be a mini mini version IMO. He may have just made a bad stroke for some reason as I don't really see the need for one there but I may be missing something.

As to that, why would one use a swipe stroke if the results could be had from a more normal stroke? The answer is that they would not, but they do use the swipe stroke & for reasons.

No one is trying to force anyone to use one & especially not if one does not even know what it is & can not execute it.

SmoothStroke has spoken about 'clearing the cue' so that the tip can travel as required. I had not heard that term before but knew exactly what he meant. What that is is the cue stick leaving the bridge hand so that the tip travels differently than for other normal strokes. Sometimes some do it with the whole bridge hand moving & leaving the table when they use a closed bridge. It requires timing.

It's like art...not every painter can make all of the same strokes.

Like Fran said... Happy Experimenting.

Best Wishes to All.

PS What Earl is doing when he shoots that shot is he's testing the conditions to see how long they will allow the spin to stay on the ball. He's moving the ball around the table 'ONLY" with the spin. When the ball gets to the 3rd &/or 4th. rail he can see if the ball still has the spin on it or if it has started to roll. It may be a swipe stroke that he's using but with Earl it is not easy to tell as he does things at a different caliber than nearly anyone else can imagine. He may get more out of a small swipe than most could get out of their maximum swipe.

ENGLISH! said:

Picture turning the cue 90* to the shot & then stroking at the edge of the ball.

That is just intended as a visual aid & is not a depiction of the stroke.

Fran & SmoothStroke are both instructors that have spoken about it as have I.

I personally would not classify the shot shown of Nick Varner as a swipe stroke of any major kind with out knowing if he intended it as it would be a mini mini version IMO. He may have just made a bad stroke for some reason as I don't really see the need for one there but I may be missing something.

As to that, why would one use a swipe stroke if the results could be had from a more normal stroke? The answer is that they would not, but they do use the swipe stroke & for reasons.

No one is trying to force anyone to use one & especially not if one does not even know what it is & can not execute it.

SmoothStroke has spoken about 'clearing the cue' so that the tip can travel as required. I had not heard that term before but knew exactly what he meant. What that is is the cue stick leaving the bridge hand so that tip travels differently than for other normal strokes. Sometimes some do it with the whole bridge hand moving & leaving the table. It requires timing.

It's like art...not every painter can make all of the same strokes.

Like Fran said... Happy Experimenting.

Best Wishes to All.

PS What Earl is doing when he shoots that shot is he's testing the conditions to see how long they will allow the spin to stay on the ball. He's moving the ball around the table 'ONLY" with the spin. When the ball gets to the 3rd &/or 4th. rail he can see if the ball still has the spin on it or if has started to roll. It may be a swipe stroke that he's using but with Earl it is not easy to tell as he does things at a different caliber than nearly anyone else can imagine. He may get more out of a small swipe than most could get out of their maximum swipe.

Click to expand...

To your first point, actually they would do it because they simply don't know any better.

To your second point, let me just say this. If there is ANY certified instructor out there that would seriously tell a student to lift his or her bridge hand off the table during a stroke. That person should IMMEDIATELY be banned from teaching.

BeiberLvr said:

To your first point, actually they would do it because they simply don't know any better.

To your second point, let me just say this. If there is ANY certified instructor out there that would seriously tell a student to lift his or her bridge hand off the table during a stroke. That person should IMMEDIATELY be banned from teaching.

Click to expand...

To your first point...

Fran, SmoothStroke, Earl, & I have been playing the game for many decades. I think we know what we can do with our normal english stroke & what works better with a swipe stroke.

You seem to be taking advice from some that do not even know what the stroke is & are not capable of executing it.

Like I said... Some artists can not make all of the same brush strokes & there are other individuals that are only capable of painting by the numbers method.

You're comparing, or I should say trying to compare, normal operating procedures to what is an unusual or exceptional situation.

Also like I said, no one is trying to force anyone to use the stroke or even experiment with it...
but you or no one else should be trying to discourage anyone from doing their own experimenting just based on what you've heard or have been told by others.

As to your 2nd. point...

Perhaps you would like to inform SmoothStroke in person that YOU personally have decided that he should be banned from giving any lessons.

Each individual should make their own determinations regarding EVERY aspect of their game.

PS It is this kind of thing, I think, that is why Fran was hesitant to post about it at all. There are too many on AZB that think that that know everything because they've taken a lesson or have read a book & maybe a science book.

PS2 Your hate will cloud your judgement.

BeiberLvr said:

To your first point, actually they would do it because they simply don't know any better.

To your second point, let me just say this. If there is ANY certified instructor out there that would seriously tell a student to lift his or her bridge hand off the table during a stroke. That person should IMMEDIATELY be banned from teaching.

Click to expand...

Oh, don't go getting all upset. Nobody is saying they teach the swoop stroke. However, I think any teacher that discourages his student from experimenting should be IMMEDIATELY banned from teaching. LOL There. Back atcha.

FranCrimi said:

Oh, don't go getting all upset. Nobody is saying they teach the swoop stroke. However, I think any teacher that discourages his student from experimenting should be IMMEDIATELY banned from teaching. LOL There. Back atcha.

Click to expand...

While I see no benefit to a swoop stroke, I have no problem with it being taught. Although I am curious what shots can ONLY be achieved by swooping.

My gripe with Rick and my comment about banning instructors has to do with him talking about teaching players to remove their bridge hand off the table during their stroke.

Would you teach a student to do that and charge them?

BeiberLvr said:

While I see no benefit to a swoop stroke, I have no problem with it being taught. Although I am curious what shots can ONLY be achieved by swooping.

My gripe with Rick and my comment about banning instructors has to do with him talking about teaching players to remove their bridge hand off the table during their stroke.

Would you teach a student to do that and charge them?

Click to expand...

I said no such thing.

ENGLISH! said:

Picture turning the cue 90* to the shot & then stroking at the edge of the ball.

That is just intended as a visual aid & is not a depiction of the stroke.

Fran & SmoothStroke are both instructors that have spoken about it as have I.

I personally would not classify the shot shown of Nick Varner as a swipe stroke of any major kind with out knowing if he intended it as it would be a mini mini version IMO. He may have just made a bad stroke for some reason as I don't really see the need for one there but I may be missing something.

As to that, why would one use a swipe stroke if the results could be had from a more normal stroke? The answer is that they would not, but they do use the swipe stroke & for reasons.

No one is trying to force anyone to use one & especially not if one does not even know what it is & can not execute it.

SmoothStroke has spoken about 'clearing the cue' so that the tip can travel as required. I had not heard that term before but knew exactly what he meant. What that is is the cue stick leaving the bridge hand so that the tip travels differently than for other normal strokes. Sometimes some do it with the whole bridge hand moving & leaving the table when they use a closed bridge It requires timing.

It's like art...not every painter can make all of the same strokes.

Like Fran said... Happy Experimenting.

Best Wishes to All.

PS What Earl is doing when he shoots that shot is he's testing the conditions to see how long they will allow the spin to stay on the ball. He's moving the ball around the table 'ONLY" with the spin. When the ball gets to the 3rd &/or 4th. rail he can see if the ball still has the spin on it or if it has started to roll. It may be a swipe stroke that he's using but with Earl it is not easy to tell as he does things at a different caliber than nearly anyone else can imagine. He may get more out of a small swipe than most could get out of their maximum swipe.

Click to expand...

Where in there did I say anything about teaching anyone to do that? I said some do it.

You seem to be learning from your AZB idol & following right along in his footsteps.

ENGLISH! said:

I said no such thing.



Where in there did I say anything about teaching anyone to do that? I said some do it.

You seem to be learning from your AZB idol & following right along in his footsteps.

Click to expand...

So we are in agreement that lifting one's bridge hand completely off the table during the stroke is not a good thing?

BeiberLvr said:

So we are in agreement that lifting one's bridge hand completely off the table during the stroke is not a good thing?

Click to expand...

Normally yes that would not be what one would want to do NORMALLY.

Is the swipe stroke a normal stroke that one uses as their predominant stroke?

I've never seen that with anyone.

That does not mean that it would not be "a good thing" for a given situation.

If one wants to use a swipe stroke & is using an open bridge then the cue can 'clear' & the bridge hand can stay on the table.

If one is using a closed bridge for some reason & wants to use a swipe stroke then the hand would have to move or leave the table to allow the cue to 'clear'.

Like I said, some do it that way.

The only time I have done that is when I was afraid that I might foul if the bridge hand stayed in place.

FranCrimi said:

gregcantrall said:

I let this rest for a while as I am only interested in exploring the possible use of various stroke styles.
“Swoop Experiment” ILLUSTRATED PRINCIPLES
Dr. Dave Alciatore, PhD
In conclusion Dr. Dave lists what he perceives to be the advantages and disadvantages of the swipe or swoop.
Online Video NV F.2 demonstrates both types of strokes, shows all of the
procedures used in the experiments, and summarizes all of the results.

Click to expand...

Take a look at his diagram of the swoop or swipe stroke. It shows the angle of the cue stick as being angled towards the center of the cue ball. That's a problem.

Click to expand...

Fran, this is simply a matter of perspective. Here's the diagram from the article:


If you rotate the whole diagram, you can show the cue aligned relative to the CB in any direction you want (although, the resulting CB direction will also rotate with the diagram). The purpose for the diagram is to directly compare a swoop stroke to a straight stroke for a given shot, with the CB heading in the same direction with the same amount of spin with each approach. The swoop stroke can create the same amount of spin with less actual tip offset from center, but the cue alignment at contact must be different (exaggerated in the diagram for clarity) to achieve the same CB direction as the straight stroke. Much more explanation can be found in the article and video.

FranCrimi said:

The angle of the cue stick should be perpendicular or near perpendicular ( a slight angle outward is acceptable) to the cue ball at the immediate point of impact, followed by the swooping motion as the tip is on the ball. Also, the point of contact illustrated in the diagram is not a swipe stroke point of contact. It should be closer to the center. When your point of contact is at the edge of the ball, you lose the effect of the swipe. You're just swiping in air.

Click to expand...

The effects in the diagram are exaggerated so people can better understand what is actually going on with a swoop stroke. In the video, with the actual swoop stroke shots, the cue is closer to "perpendicular" and the tip contact point is closer to center; although the effects illustrated in the exaggerated diagram (and described in the article and video) still apply (albeit at a lesser extent). It is clear in the video that the cue alignment (aim) must be different with the swoop stroke, as compared to the straight stroke, to have the CB head in the same direction.

For those interested, more information and demonstrations related to the swoop stroke can be found on the stroke swoop resource page.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave said:

Click to expand...

I have to agree with Fran here. That diagram is at the very least confusing. Perhaps two diagrams for the swoop shot, one at initial tip to ball contact, and another at ball release would be helpful for visualizing the shot.

I also think that your video is not showing the swoop shot that Fran is describing. All your shots have a chalk mark on the cue ball out near the miscue limit. If you were really hitting center ball and THEN swooping the chalk mark would be at the center of the circle on the cue ball.

Unless I am missing something, since the tip in contact with the cue ball time is measured in a few (call it 2) milliseconds, and a sideways speed of the tip needing to be an inch in that time span (83 feet/sec or about 50 miles per hour). And since the claim is that the tip is NOT moving sideways at the time of contact with the cue ball, but only upon contact, that speed needs to be accelerated up to in that same time frame, (for 41,500 feet/sec², or 1,300 g's). Which seems at best 'unlikely'.

Thank You Kindly.

There are many different ways to strike the cue ball in order to make it take the path you want. Your top 3 cushion players can demonstrate a number of these strokes.
Pool players that I believe have these shots in their bag are;
Earl, Mike Massey, Keith McCready, Buddy Hall, Efren, Corey, Dennis Hatch and Larry Neville.
The time you are most likely to see it, is when it just cost you some money.

Corwyn_8 said:

Perhaps two diagrams for the swoop shot, one at initial tip to ball contact, and another at ball release would be helpful for visualizing the shot.

Click to expand...

Those two diagrams would be pretty much identical since cue tip contact and release is practically instantaneous (in the thousandth of a second range).

Corwyn_8 said:

also think that your video is not showing the swoop shot that Fran is describing.

Click to expand...

The purpose of the video was not to demonstrate how to execute a swoop stroke or its variations. The real purpose was to clearly document and demonstrate a simple, meaningful, and reliable procedure that people can use to test claims concerning any swoop stroke.

I hope you, Fran, and other swoop believers out there give it a try. The test is not that difficult, and it doesn't take very much time.

If you or others do try it out with your swoop stroke, please share your results and observations.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave said:

Those two diagrams would be pretty much identical since cue tip contact and release is practically instantaneous (in the thousandth of a second range).

The purpose of the video was not to demonstrate how to execute a swoop stroke or its variations. The real purpose was to clearly document and demonstrate a simple, meaningful, and reliable procedure that people can use to test claims concerning any swoop stroke.

Click to expand...

Ah. that makes more sense then. To be clear, I don't think it can be done, as described, I just didn't think the videos adequately showed that it could be done, and that it didn't achieve the results claimed. Apologies for misinterpreting your intent.

Thank you kindly.

Cracktherack said:

There are many different ways to strike the cue ball in order to make it take the path you want. Your top 3 cushion players can demonstrate a number of these strokes.
Pool players that I believe have these shots in their bag are;
Earl, Mike Massey, Keith McCready, Buddy Hall, Efren, Corey, Dennis Hatch and Larry Neville.
The time you are most likely to see it, is when it just cost you some money.

Click to expand...

---------:thumbup2:------------


How have you been?

dr_dave said:

Those two diagrams would be pretty much identical since cue tip contact and release is practically instantaneous (in the thousandth of a second range).

The purpose of the video was not to demonstrate how to execute a swoop stroke or its variations. The real purpose was to clearly document and demonstrate a simple, meaningful, and reliable procedure that people can use to test claims concerning any swoop stroke.

I hope you, Fran, and other swoop believers out there give it a try. The test is not that difficult, and it doesn't take very much time.

If you or others do try it out with your swoop stroke, please share your results and observations.

Regards,
Dave

Click to expand...

For a scientist presenting a diagram to explain something specific, an arbitrarily drawn cue stick angle is bad enough, but I don't think you drew it arbitrarily because you don't do arbitrary. You're a scientist. I think you really thought that was the angle, and that is an outrageous error. It shows that you don't understand the stroke, yet you attempt to lecture us about it. You shrug off the angle of the cue as meaningless which is another grave mistake. You obviously don't seem to understand the implication of your error. Players who aren't familiar with that stroke will try to emulate it with that cue stick angle. Try to pocket a ball with that cue stick angle and see what happens. Also, your tip placement on the edge of the cue ball in the diagram is also wrong as I have stated earlier in this thread.

Regarding your video: If you aimed on the edge of the ball, which it appears that you do, then the swipe stroke has been incorrectly executed. Also, you failed to pocket a ball in your video which is significant to the use of the stroke.

So what are you inviting me and others to do? Perform something as simplistic as your video and as incorrectly as you?

FranCrimi said:

dr_dave said:

... Here's the diagram from the article:

... The swoop stroke can create the same amount of spin with less actual tip offset from center, but the cue alignment at contact must be different (exaggerated in the diagram for clarity) to achieve the same CB direction as the straight stroke. Much more explanation can be found in the article and video.

The effects in the diagram are exaggerated so people can better understand what is actually going on with a swoop stroke. In the video, with the actual swoop stroke shots, the cue is closer to "perpendicular" and the tip contact point is closer to center; although the effects illustrated in the exaggerated diagram (and described in the article and video) still apply (albeit at a lesser extent). It is clear in the video that the cue alignment (aim) must be different with the swoop stroke, as compared to the straight stroke, to have the CB head in the same direction.

For those interested, more information and demonstrations related to the swoop stroke can be found on the stroke swoop resource page.

Click to expand...

For a scientist presenting a diagram to explain something specific, an arbitrarily drawn cue stick angle is bad enough, but I don't think you drew it arbitrarily because you don't do arbitrary. You're a scientist. I think you really thought that was the angle, and that is an outrageous error. ...

Click to expand...

Fran,

I think this is one of those times where we just need to agree to disagree, but I can assure that I still think the diagram is illustrative of the effects (even if it doesn't demonstrate the exact technique required, which was not the intent).

Regards,
Dave

FranCrimi said:

Regarding your video: If you aimed on the edge of the ball, which it appears that you do, then the swipe stroke has been incorrectly executed. Also, you failed to pocket a ball in your video which is significant to the use of the stroke.

Click to expand...

Fran, it seems that you did not watch the entire video (or maybe you are referring to a different video). The careful test comparing the straight stroke to the swoop stroke starts at the 6:34 point in the video, and examples of the swoop stroke start at the 9:51 point in the video.

Again, the purpose of the video was not to demonstrate how to execute a swoop stroke or its variations. The real purpose was to clearly document and demonstrate a simple, meaningful, and reliable procedure that people can use to test claims concerning any swoop stroke.

I hope you and other swoop believers out there give it a try. The test is not that difficult, and it doesn't take very much time.

If you or others do try it out with your swoop stroke, please share your results and observations

Regards,
Dave

FranCrimi said:

So what are you inviting me and others to do?

Click to expand...

1.) If you think my attempts (and Tom Ross' and Dave Gross' attempts) at swoop strokes are wrong or misleading, please post a video showing us how it should be done instead. If you don't have a camera or a smartphone, I'm sure you can find somebody with one. It is extremely easy to post video with Youtube, even if you have never done it before (and it would be very easy to find somebody to help if necessary). You can even film in slow motion with modern phones. For an example of how to do this, see: NV F.3 - Pool stun/draw/follow jump shots at various cue elevations, with smartphone slo-mo.


2.) Try the procedure clearly described and demonstrated in the following article and video:
"Swoop Experiment" (BD, August, 2015)
NV F.2 - Swoop Stroke Experiment - Can swooping create extra spin on the cue ball?
If you don't want to watch the entire video, the explanation and demonstration of the referenced test starts a the 6:34 point in the video. If you get different results than I got, please share your observations and data (and video, if available).


I look forward to seeing a proper swoop stroke along with a demonstration clearly showing that it can do something a straight stroke cannot do.

IMO, a straight stroke is much more reliable, consistent, and accurate for most people; but again, I am open to seeing demonstrations that might change my perception.

Thank you,
Dave

FranCrimi said:

...an arbitrarily drawn cue stick angle

Click to expand...

Fran, the different cue stick angle shows that if the tip isn't moving in line with the stick, then the CB must go in another direction - in other words, the two strokes produce different effective force directions, but the same amount of spin (effective tip offset).

Here's the same diagram rotated to illustrate that.

pj
chgo

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