Upset with Pool Business in America

In my opinion, trying to increase billiards sports participation by sponsoring pros to represent products makes much less sense than spending that same money to sponsor youth league teams. The best way to increase future adult participation is to get today's kids hooked. Just ask R.J. Reynolds.

Good Rolls,
Rasta

What more of a platform do the American players need to better their skills? Contrary to popular belief the Asians are not state supported. Their are no pool camps in Asia that I am aware of that are there to house and feed promising players while they train and train.

Players in other countries get better just like players in the USA do. They show some interest and some talent and they begin to compete and seek more knowledge. Some find coaches, some gamble, some work it out on their own.

It is unfair to put the development of players on the industry's shoulders alone. At this point in pool's visibility cycle any promotion of pool players can only be seen as patron charity rather than serious efforts at greater visibility and sales. I doubt that any company of size in the billiard industry can truly draw a correlation between signifigantly increased sales and any individual sponsorships. Perhaps someone like the gentleman who makes the X-Breakers and aggressively markets them by putting them in the hands of pro players a his predecessors in that genre have done, can point to increased sales as a direct result of sponsorship. But that type of product only appeals to a very small segment of the billiard industry's customers, who also happen to be the ones who take an active interest in what the pros are endorsing.

If you mean that the billiard industry should sponsor tournaments and tours I would ask that you add up all of the tournaments and tours that have been collectively sponsored by billiard industry companies in the last twenty years, whether in actual money, equipment, or resources.

I doubt very much that you will see any American companies aggressively courting overseas players to sponsor them. Some sponsorships will occur through contacts, based on performance, but most won't happen because they are not economically viable.

A world champion such as Thorsten Hohmann is someone who should attract a sponsor right? Well, he had to move to the United States to get the sponsorship of Lucasi. It was not in Cue and Case's interest to sponsor a player who wouldn't be present. (disclaimer, I have no first hand knowledge of Mr. Hohmann's deal, I am only speculating).

The players themselves need to be the ones to take control of their future. They should be the ones who provide the base from which to negotiate and provide themselves a platform to improve their skills. They should build an organization that can excite younger players and give them a way to improve that does not entail hustling. Notice I did not say gambling. That is because contests of skill between roughly equal players are fine.

It is of course another debate but there is a reason why the best players in the world are the best. They are the best because they have the ability to bring their A games for free, for money, and in tournaments.

There are many factors why foreign players have so much success. One of the reasons is that when they show up at a tournament they are very often the best of the best in their own country. A Fong Pang Chao is the equal of Johnny Archer in every aspect of the game so there is no reason to not think he is a threat to win any tournament he enters. The same goes for a Thorsten Hohmann, Ralf Souquet, Mika Immonen, and so on. There isn't a player factory in Germany that just churns out champions. These players have come up through their systems and proved themselves the best of the best and so they come to America where the talent pool is very deep and diverse. In the USA they are among the best of the best and no player really dominates for very long.

Perhaps if we had a more structured form of training then we might end up with a higher average level of play. I doubt however that the number and even the skill level of the best players in the USA would increase very much though. At that level they can ALL PLAY. It come down to who has the nerves and the consistentcy. Maybe if the Americans would lose a little bit of their arrogance in thinking that they are the world's best players then they could focus on being the world's best players.

While the "demise" of American pool talent is being lamented in the USA I can report that American pool players are highly respected and warmly welcomed around the world. They are not taken lightly in competition and winning against America's best players is a huge achievement.

Not Exactly

Roadie said:

Their are no pool camps in Asia that I am aware of that are there to house and feed promising players while they train and train.

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There are state sponsored pool training facilities in Asia. I've been to one of them. It did not house & feed the players, but they did have equipment and coaching.

There are at least 3 or 4 Asian countries that have state sponsored billiard programs. I would not be surprised if one or more actually house & feed them too.

Okay. If you read the bios on most ofthe pool players out of Asia that are well known, most of them have similar stories to Americans, children of pool hall owners, got into it recreationally and gambled their way to the top and so on.

We have pool camps in America too Didn't Grady Matthews offer to take a player and house and feed him for a percentage of the revenue?

Island Drive said:

Points well taken, but its ironic when companies in the states utilize American players to promote their products, but not utilize the "sport" as a vehicle to promote what they are trying to SELL.

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I think the success of the Viking Tour over the years is an example of a business that does exactly what you are talking about.
Steve

Good point. Unfortunately, each business makes an individual decision as to how, and how much, to support the game. Some pick a couple of pros to sponsor, some sponsor tours, some put their name on specific tournaments. I would like to see the BCA, as the recognized trade organization for the industry, to take the lead and develop a kind of tiered system of tournaments that would allow players to advance through different levels. Statewide tours that would feed players to regional tours and then on to a top level professional tour, with advancement based on qualifying your way up the levels. The BCA is the logical choice since their membership includes just about every major business in the industry. It is the only way I can see getting the entire billiard industry to come together on the same page. Everyone says they want what is best for pool. Maybe it's time for all the businesses in the industry to back up the talk.
Steve

Hustling?

Roadie said:

...The players themselves need to be the ones to take control of their future. They should be the ones who provide the base from which to negotiate and provide themselves a platform to improve their skills. They should build an organization that can excite younger players and give them a way to improve that does not entail hustling. Notice I did not say gambling. That is because contests of skill between roughly equal players are fine.
...

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Where's all the hustling that you refer to? I just came back from a week at Derby City where I must have seen dozens and dozens of gambling "contests of skill between roughly equal players" and many more match-ups where the handicaps involved definitely recognized the disparity between players. What did I miss ???

joss, viking, brunswick, diamond and Mcdermott have all sponsored tours and tournaments each and every year. It all boils down to the bottom line-money. It takes money to have a structured amature, semi-pro and professional system. It takes money to pay the people to teach players to get better and have facilities to teach in. Pool in the US is very poor mostly because most of the players are very uneducated and broke, living day to day, week to week and some have families to support (not to mention the drug and gambling issues). Have you ever noticed that the same group of people have been winning tours and tournaments over the last few decades?

upset, disappointed, bummed out as well

I read many things in this thread regarding the facts that many
of the US players are broke, etc.. Most of the pool rooms in
my area (MA) have long closed over the last few years, and
unfortunately the three I played weekly tournaments in. So, as
rooms continue to dry up, and it gets tougher to find a room,
I believe interest will dwindle even further.

It is very expensive to learn how to play well, unless you have
a parent or relative with a pool room, or you work in one and
have enough time to play many hours a day, in situations where
there are other competitive players. So I suspect there
will be many less younger players in the US to fill the shoes
of the current top US players as time goes on. It seems these
days the "upscale" rooms depend on the non-serious player
to make their profits. But I think there will be many less
non-serious players as time goes on, if there isn't much going
on at the professional level in the US. So then upscale rooms
will see less profits and they may have to start closing. That
could worsen things to a point where there would be very little
money in the US to be made off equipment sales.

But on the other hand I can see it hard for manufacturers to
fund and sponsor events, when it's getting harder to turn a
profit when cheaper and lower-quality equipment is being sold
these days.

I really love the game, but I can't figure out a solution to get
the game to increase in popularity in the US again. It seems
the average person has less free time these days, and tends
to avoid endeavors that require a lot of time and effort to
learn to become proficient, especially when there is very little
chance of making a living at it.

1pocket said:

Where's all the hustling that you refer to? I just came back from a week at Derby City where I must have seen dozens and dozens of gambling "contests of skill between roughly equal players" and many more match-ups where the handicaps involved definitely recognized the disparity between players. What did I miss ???

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A lot Mr. Booth.

I am not sure if you have ever been on the road. On the road as a player you are not looking to match up evenly or anywhere close to evenly. None of the players at Derby who were matching up were looking to match up evenly. Not in their hearts. They were looking to match up where they thought they had the nuts. It is a little harder to do that in an environment like Derby City because the players have a pretty good line on everyone's speed. But, you can bet your house, your farm, whatever you can raise or borrow, that there were plenty of hustles and moves happening at Derby City on many levels with players and backers trying to trap each other.

You can also bet the above worldly goods that just about every player with any gamble at the DCC was pumping up by preying on suckers at every opportunity leading up to the event.

Mr. Booth, I have been there many times, on the road, and at the DCC. I have been privy to the scheming that goes on when people are trying to trap other people. There are always the few players that get the most attention, such as Scooter and Durbin because they seek that attention. There are many other player there however that take down a lot of targets that they worked over by any number of means to get them into games that were way out of line.

Perhaps this will just always be a part of pool's culture. It will be a good day however when players who aspire to be professionals can take a path that does not force them into the world of matching up for the cash and being some backer's "horse". For all the fun and excitement that Derby is one should not forget that a good portion of the players there will go home dead broke without a lot of good prospects on the horizon except some suckers along the way to fleece for a few dollars.

Roadie said:

A lot Mr. Booth.

I am not sure if you have ever been on the road. On the road as a player you are not looking to match up evenly or anywhere close to evenly. None of the players at Derby who were matching up were looking to match up evenly. Not in their hearts. They were looking to match up where they thought they had the nuts. It is a little harder to do that in an environment like Derby City because the players have a pretty good line on everyone's speed. But, you can bet your house, your farm, whatever you can raise or borrow, that there were plenty of hustles and moves happening at Derby City on many levels with players and backers trying to trap each other.

You can also bet the above worldly goods that just about every player with any gamble at the DCC was pumping up by preying on suckers at every opportunity leading up to the event.

Mr. Booth, I have been there many times, on the road, and at the DCC. I have been privy to the scheming that goes on when people are trying to trap other people. There are always the few players that get the most attention, such as Scooter and Durbin because they seek that attention. There are many other player there however that take down a lot of targets that they worked over by any number of means to get them into games that were way out of line.

Perhaps this will just always be a part of pool's culture. It will be a good day however when players who aspire to be professionals can take a path that does not force them into the world of matching up for the cash and being some backer's "horse". For all the fun and excitement that Derby is one should not forget that a good portion of the players there will go home dead broke without a lot of good prospects on the horizon except some suckers along the way to fleece for a few dollars.

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Isn't it always the case, when one hustler/player meets another for the cash, they generally both think 'they've got the nuts'? Obviously they both can't -- this set -- but maybe the next set So what?

Now if you want to talk about dumping and other 'business', that's a whole different story.

But can you name any other single sport in which the industry shows so little respect for the sport's best practitioners, than pool?
I cannot, and that is sad, IMO

Consolidate all the acronym organizations into one entity, so bigger sponsors know who to talk to.