Poker Is Killing The Pool Industry

I love pool. And I will not watch ESPN coverage of a match.

How many times do we hear this?

God bless Mitch Lawrence for trying, but it just isn't working.

The show Ballbusters was a format that could of worked. Players had to bet on their games and could make side bets when not playing. Sounds cool huh? Well then instead of having Corey, Effren, Francisco, and Earl in there mixing it up what do they do? Pull people off the street who can't make 3 balls !!!! AARRRRGHHHH !!!!!

I guess all the good players were too busy to be on TV

I don't know the answer. But I do know more of the same is not gonna make it any better.

Wanna make pool hot on TV? Make it like PINKS on Speed. Lose the set. Lose your dough. Have 2 guys put up $5k each and winner take all. 10 ball winner break. Race to 5 best 3 out of 5 sets to win. Negotiate the spot after each set. Moderator to make the final decision. Once the dough is up somebody has to win. If some body puts 3 5 packs together GREAT !!!

I think you would have enough guys interested to make it work. Start it at the Derby. The biggest commodity the pool world has to offer TV is the characters. Showcase them.

Oh...yeah if anybody actually does this I want a little jelly.

I could careless if pool or poker was on TV. I only watched the IPT or Pool because it allowed me to study profesionals playing in competition. Other than that though it was pretty boring. No matter how many smoke machines and lasers they put out.

What bugs me the most about Poker is how it is eating up pool halls. I don't even go to pool halls anymore because of it. I'm playing around all calm and mellow then I hear "WHooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! F Yeah!!! I Rivered your Ass!!!! Whoooooooohoooooooo!!!!". Then I just want to walk over to him and shove a stick up his but then break it off.

However I'm a believer in Capitalism and what works for a pool hall and keeps it running is good for me. Especially when those poker players spill drinks on the table because they sat their cup on it.

However poker is starting to die. My friends who play poker have seen the decline. Part of the reason is law enforcement. They've been cracking down here in Georgia. The other reason is everyone is going broke.

well, most ppl that watch poker never end up playing poker tournys on tv. just like pool watchers generally dont play in televised tournaments. however, i think people like watching poker cuz they feel they can emulate what they see. since poker does have a certain amount of luck to it (getting cards to fall correctly), even an amateur can upset a pro in a tournament. pool is different. when ppl watch efren play 1 pocket, everyone knows that there is no way u can do what he does, nor can u fluke out a win even if u are an amateur. therefore, more people are interested in poker since it is something they can see themselves doing. i think this is generally true for all slow action sports...like chess. no one would ever watch a chess game lol.

A Thought

Dartman said:

The hype is that a no-name won a $40 WSOP satellite and went on to win the main event and $2.5 Million. Once that news got out online poker skyrocketed with people looking to duplicate Moneymakers' success. All pool needs to do is get 1000 players together in one location at $10k a pop. Local rooms running satellites for entries into a $10 million dollar "open" tournament could rack up. Pool could get big but someone needs to think big to make it happen.

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Poker is something anyone can basically pick up. Pool is not... As said already, An amateur could possibly win a poker tournament. An amateur can't just go play pool for the first time and win a major tournament. There's the difference. Anyone can get good at poker but that's not the case for pool. Also, letting the players pull their moves playin pool is interesting to watch but at the same time lacks a lot of class. I don't really think anyone would want to watch someone lose their money because they got sharked, bad racked, and all the other moves most pool players do. I'm a pool player and card player. I'm great at both. When playing pool though I am turned off to it because of all these moves the players pull. If I win I don't want to win that way. I will not win that way because I refuse to be like that. Plus you have them screwing people and chopping up the money. Dumping in other words. Pool lacks class. Which is funny to hear from me because that's what I am is a pool player. For a long time that was my only source for money. I lost the will to want to do it anymore because of all the garbage that goes along with it. To me it's not worth it. Plus pool does not pay anything. I don't know if my point is coming out here. If pool is ever going to go some place (Which I believe never will) It's going to have to change. Players are going to have to get some class about them and stop all the bull. Which again will never happen. Pool players are shady. Trust me, I've been involved in it all and I don't want to be that way. Plus half of them are druggies. Now think about it.. You honestly think the rest of the world that's not involved in stuff like that really want to watch these guys? If they do watch do you really think they walk away with respect for these people? Pool is what the people make of it. It needs many major changes to go far. I could pick at it for hours but you guys already know all this stuff. Don't get me wrong, Poker has it's cons and hustles too. In the end pool has too much baggage and doesn't pay anything. It will never be big like poker.

I think what helps poker is the "characters." Some of the best poker players are fun to watch. I'm not a big poker fan myself but I enjoys seeing some of these guys on TV because they are entertaining.

Thats what pool lacks. Efren is by far and away my favorite player but he doesn't have much of a personality in most of his TV matches and it really doesn't help that is english is about as good as my game (thats not very good). I agree that for pool to become popular on TV they will have to become more lively. I have a lot of respect for Allison Fisher and her ability but I tape her matches to put me to sleep at night.

The problem is there is only entertainment value in these matches to pool players. You don't have to know anything about poker to enjoy it for the entertainment. As much as I hate to say this Earl Strickland is great for TV just because he is crazy. It may not be the "respectable" or "traditional" way pool tournaments are played but if you want more people to watch, they need to be entertained. I think the IPT had a good thing going in terms of their TV show. You got to see a lot of players instead of just 2 and there was extra commentary from the players. I lost it when Putnam chased down the water girl when he played McCready. To bad KT is an a..........

Dave

The sad reality of this situation, as I see it, is that we as individual room owners don't have any clout. We all hoped that when Kevin Trudeau (Natural Cures) started the IPT, Pool was going to become popular again. From what I understand (maybe I'm wrong) that venture went bust.
We need to collectively lean on an organization that does have some clout - the BCA. What is the BCA doing for Room Owners? Helping to organize leagues? I don't know of anyone that has a BCA league playing in their room. The APA does a much better job of promoting leagues.
I would like to call on all room owners to stop paying membership fees to the BCA and then send them an e-mail explaining why.
It's all about marketing. As Individuals, we can't afford to do much to promote the game. Many of us try hard but can only reach a very limited number of people. If we could pool (sorry for the pun) our resources, we could do much more.
This is a great forum. I have found a lot of good ideas that I hope will help make a difference. I've been in business for 7 years and just found this site. How many others don't know about it, or others like it?
If we're going to turn things around, we need to work together.
Four rooms, in close proximity to mine, have closed down in the last year. I'm not worried that sharing some of the things I've done to improve business will give my competition the upper hand. I have aleady mentioned them in other threads and as I come up with new ideas will continue to do so.
If you know of other forums that Room Owners can "vent", I'd appreciate knowing. I'm going to let all of the room owners that I can contact via the net know about this forum (I wish someone had let me know sooner).
Keep the ideas coming!

Welcome cuetime

We are glad to have your input in this forum. This is the only forum specifically dedicated to room owners that I know of. I agree with what you said about sharing ideas. I dont think you give the upper hand to your competition. The problems lie in getting new blood in the doors. That helps EVERYONE (including the competition) but that is a good thing for pool in the long run. Before the room owners had their own forum there was a lot of discussion in the main forum that dealt with the business side of pool. I would suggest searching those threads when you have time to get even more ideas both from players AND owners about increasing business..and reducing problems too. Welcome again cuetime. We are all glad to have you here.

PS> St Louis has lost 4 rooms this year too! So I guess its slow everywhere.

Color of Money and Hustler are great movies but....

these two movies have done nothing for the game of pool but keep money FROM going into them. The public view on this sport is that of scorn. Noone likes to be hustled and noone is willing to pay to watch hustlers. Some of the best players in the world are not even known because that is the way they want it so they can HUSTLE people. Look at golf, game that is respected and admired by the public. Making millions of dollars for positioning a little white ball. Wait a minute, is that pool??? Yes but without the hustling. Sure there are hustlers in golf at clubs or whatever, but do you think they want any part of TIGER,Els, Vijay??? I dont think so. That is why they are rewarded, because they are the best and allow the public to view them as just that, the best at what they do. The great should come out of the closet and be seen and start to give pool a better image to the public and maybe we will see a change of opinion and also see a change in purse monies for pros. More endorsements. More everything. The more interest in a sport the money there will be in it. Common sense. Hell, I just saw they had an East versus West competition for text messaging. Text messaging!!!!! Winner took home $25,000. How many pool tournaments pay the winner that much. A couple. Aside from the winner take all tourneys. And as far as poker goes, the best players in the world are known and they are rewarded because they make there profession interesting to the viewers. Again, THE MORE PEOPLE INTERESTED IN SOMETHING THE MORE MONEY THAT IS INVOLVED!!!

I would agree that the relatively small payouts for Professional Pool tournaments are a problem and the idea of many satelite tourneys culminating into one BIG money event sounds pretty good. I don't know who would organize something like that. The APA does that on an amature level with some success but it's still not BIG money. My Monday nights would be a disaster without my league teams.
I would have to disagree that the movies mentioned, hurt the game. I base that on the fact that there was a major boom in Pool following each movie according to Pool & Billiards Magazine.
I'm not old enough to remember when "The Hustler" first came out, but I do remember "The Color of Money". One of the rooms I currently own was established one year after the movie came out. At least six other rooms sprung up within a 15 mile radius of mine around the same time. I'm the only one left.
This is all a mute point. There won't be any of us left if we wait around for a good pool movie to come out.

Dartman said:

So true!
Talk to 100 people and you'll get 100 answers but here's mine - pool is about 99.9% skill and the only luck factors I know are how many balls go in on the break and whether a hanger will drop. Poker on the other hand is 10% skill and 90% luck of the cards. All the skill in the world won't help when your opponent sucks out the winning hand - yet this is the drama of TV poker which helps make it popular to the masses.

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i think porkys pool hall is in my area in nj so i feel i can really add to this conversation.

i deal poker in atlantic city nj. i also play pool. here is the difference. like dartman said. it takes little REAL SKILL to play cards. it is much easier to play cards. however there is a reason we see the same ppl at the end all the time.

what u see on tv is such a small part of poker. there are 1500+ ppl that enter there tournaments. the us open this year in chesapeake,va couldnt fill a field of 250 for literally 1/20 the cost. most of these kids play so f.ing bad i cant believe they waste their time and money. however they still have a chance. more money than brains. but it only takes a "good run" for a short time to have a chance. pool will never be like poker bc it cant. there is no chance what-so-ever to win for alot of ppl.

reason 2 is pool is a scumbag game. you cant just gamble. a game cant be made unless it is so lopsided its not worth playin. alot of the so called good players wont play unless theyre stealing. why play when u can steal. no money in pool. yet you can take 1500$ and go play 5/10 no limit and make 5000$. thats y i started playing cards over pool. tired of ppl trying to rob me.

dave sutton said:

i think porkys pool hall is in my area in nj so i feel i can really add to this conversation.

i deal poker in atlantic city nj. i also play pool. here is the difference. like dartman said. it takes little REAL SKILL to play cards. it is much easier to play cards. however there is a reason we see the same ppl at the end all the time.

what u see on tv is such a small part of poker. there are 1500+ ppl that enter there tournaments. the us open this year in chesapeake,va couldnt fill a field of 250 for literally 1/20 the cost. most of these kids play so f.ing bad i cant believe they waste their time and money. however they still have a chance. more money than brains. but it only takes a "good run" for a short time to have a chance. pool will never be like poker bc it cant. there is no chance what-so-ever to win for alot of ppl.

reason 2 is pool is a scumbag game. you cant just gamble. a game cant be made unless it is so lopsided its not worth playin. alot of the so called good players wont play unless theyre stealing. why play when u can steal. no money in pool. yet you can take 1500$ and go play 5/10 no limit and make 5000$. thats y i started playing cards over pool. tired of ppl trying to rob me.

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well said dave...

it cost way to much[cues,lessons,pool table rentals at the local poolhalls] to become a great ''hustler''vs a winning card player.if your good at math and get some sound advice in the beginning poker playing can be very rewarding over the course of time.but no amount of reading or coaching can turn a horrible pool player into agreat shooter if the ability is not there.not to mention most pool people will not give free advice unless it for thier own benefit...i.e. hustle. i play at foxwoods and for a 100 $ buy in to thier daily tournys most top 3 finishers get over 1800 for thier efforts.top spot is between 3-4 grand,you dont see that in pool tournys .i hear ac see also has great dailys which pay very well.[[may all your hands be monsters]][mike sexton] lol

diller47 said:

well said dave...

it cost way to much[cues,lessons,pool table rentals at the local poolhalls] to become a great ''hustler''vs a winning card player.if your good at math and get some sound advice in the beginning poker playing can be very rewarding over the course of time.but no amount of reading or coaching can turn a horrible pool player into agreat shooter if the ability is not there.not to mention most pool people will not give free advice unless it for thier own benefit...i.e. hustle. i play at foxwoods and for a 100 $ buy in to thier daily tournys most top 3 finishers get over 1800 for thier efforts.top spot is between 3-4 grand,you dont see that in pool tournys .i hear ac see also has great dailys which pay very well.[[may all your hands be monsters]][mike sexton] lol

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well from a money aspect poker is accually worse. borgata open has $500,1000,1500,2500,5k,10,k buy-ins. thats alot of cash. at borgata we have a friday 12 pm tourn $250 + 30 . we get 500 to 700 players a week. (and turn players away sometimes) winner takes 40,000$ and they pay 10% of the field. i dont think another casino gets that type of turn out. wed 60$ add on tourney we have had 500 players.

dave sutton said:

well from a money aspect poker is accually worse. borgata open has $500,1000,1500,2500,5k,10,k buy-ins. thats alot of cash. at borgata we have a friday 12 pm tourn $250 + 30 . we get 500 to 700 players a week. (and turn players away sometimes) winner takes 40,000$ and they pay 10% of the field. i dont think another casino gets that type of turn out. wed 60$ add on tourney we have had 500 players.

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dave,my man....i agree once again with you but you missed the point,........

first there are very few if any buy ins that you refered to that would cost that much to enter a pool tourny[500 and above]

2nd..i was refering to the learning curve and luck factor between pool and poker

3rd ..as moneymaker ,varkony and the last two wsop winners demonsrated you dont need years and years of experience to win the ''big one''try winning the us open 9ball with one major or no pool tourny experience behind you lol

4th..when i enter one of your tournys this summer i hope to meet you and say hi

have a nice day

diller47 said:

dave,my man....i agree once again with you but you missed the point,........

first there are very few if any buy ins that you refered to that would cost that much to enter a pool tourny[500 and above]

2nd..i was refering to the learning curve and luck factor between pool and poker

3rd ..as moneymaker ,varkony and the last two wsop winners demonsrated you dont need years and years of experience to win the ''big one''try winning the us open 9ball with one major or no pool tourny experience behind you lol

4th..when i enter one of your tournys this summer i hope to meet you and say hi

have a nice day

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all true we are on the same page. pool has no chance to catch up with poker or golf. golf is a better example bc there is a skill needed to play.

i dont think you ll see me this year. i switched shifts i am on sunrise 2 am to 10 am. i wont deal tourneys anymore. i changed my avitar so you can see this picture. it was in card player magazine. i was dealing final tables of one of the events. all i delt was the final table of every event everyday. they had 3 pictures of me 25 ft tall on the wall at the borgata. this was one. enjoy

dave sutton said:

i think porkys pool hall is in my area in nj so i feel i can really add to this conversation.

i deal poker in atlantic city nj. i also play pool. here is the difference. like dartman said. it takes little REAL SKILL to play cards. it is much easier to play cards. however there is a reason we see the same ppl at the end all the time.

what u see on tv is such a small part of poker. there are 1500+ ppl that enter there tournaments. the us open this year in chesapeake,va couldnt fill a field of 250 for literally 1/20 the cost. most of these kids play so f.ing bad i cant believe they waste their time and money. however they still have a chance. more money than brains. but it only takes a "good run" for a short time to have a chance. pool will never be like poker bc it cant. there is no chance what-so-ever to win for alot of ppl.

reason 2 is pool is a scumbag game. you cant just gamble. a game cant be made unless it is so lopsided its not worth playin. alot of the so called good players wont play unless theyre stealing. why play when u can steal. no money in pool. yet you can take 1500$ and go play 5/10 no limit and make 5000$. thats y i started playing cards over pool. tired of ppl trying to rob me.

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Dave, I gotta say that I take a little offense at your "scumbag" comment. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't think that you can stereotype any one group. There are scumbags in every group. There are scumbag Tennis players.
I run 2 pool tournaments and 2 Poker tournaments every week. My personal opinion is that there are far more people of questionable character in the Poker tournaments. We have quite a few very good Pool players, they don't seem to have a lot of problems putting games together. In almost every case, when the match is over, they shake hands and look forward to the next one. Very often, I see my good players helping out the ones that are struggling.
When the it becomes more about the money than the enjoyment of the game, the sport suffers. It doesn't matter which sport it is.

cuetime said:

Dave, I gotta say that I take a little offense at your "scumbag" comment. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't think that you can stereotype any one group. There are scumbags in every group. There are scumbag Tennis players.
I run 2 pool tournaments and 2 Poker tournaments every week. My personal opinion is that there are far more people of questionable character in the Poker tournaments. We have quite a few very good Pool players, they don't seem to have a lot of problems putting games together. In almost every case, when the match is over, they shake hands and look forward to the next one. Very often, I see my good players helping out the ones that are struggling.
When the it becomes more about the money than the enjoyment of the game, the sport suffers. It doesn't matter which sport it is.

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im not even going to really waste my time commenting on this. you obv missed the point. there is a huge difference in poker and pool. there are scumbags in every circle. if you are not a scumbag then u shouldnt be offended. dont take it personal.

ive worked in 3 poolhalls and been around the country playing. deal and play cards about 80+ hrs a week. everyone makes moves but pool is way worse that poker. im happy u can run two 50 player poker tourneys. far different tahn the thousand ppl i see a day.

bottom line poker is straight up game . everyoen gets 2 cards the same. very level. pool however is not even close to level. ill admit ive robbed and been robbed.

There is a reason

dave sutton said:

im not even going to really waste my time commenting on this. you obv missed the point. there is a huge difference in poker and pool. there are scumbags in every circle. if you are not a scumbag then u shouldnt be offended. dont take it personal.

ive worked in 3 poolhalls and been around the country playing. deal and play cards about 80+ hrs a week. everyone makes moves but pool is way worse that poker. im happy u can run two 50 player poker tourneys. far different tahn the thousand ppl i see a day.

bottom line poker is straight up game . everyoen gets 2 cards the same. very level. pool however is not even close to level. ill admit ive robbed and been robbed.

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it seems that poker is a straight up game. You forget one thing at least eventually you know you have been robbed on the pool table or that you robbed someone, in poker the scumbags that robbed you are never revealed. You never know you got cheated in poker. At least in pool even if your getting robbed you got a chance, in poker no chance. So in the end there may be more scumbags in poker, we just don't know.

nfty9er said:

it seems that poker is a straight up game. You forget one thing at least eventually you know you have been robbed on the pool table or that you robbed someone, in poker the scumbags that robbed you are never revealed. You never know you got cheated in poker. At least in pool even if your getting robbed you got a chance, in poker no chance. So in the end there may be more scumbags in poker, we just don't know.

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depends on the field of play. the casinos there is almost no way to cheat. collusion does occur and ppl do TRY to play together but it is very hard and you will get caught. everyone does. u have many ppl watching the games.

if you choose to play a home game or club you are knowingly taking that risk. along with getting raided going to jail and loosing all of your money anyway.

dave sutton said:

im not even going to really waste my time commenting on this. you obv missed the point. there is a huge difference in poker and pool. there are scumbags in every circle. if you are not a scumbag then u shouldnt be offended. dont take it personal.

ive worked in 3 poolhalls and been around the country playing. deal and play cards about 80+ hrs a week. everyone makes moves but pool is way worse that poker. im happy u can run two 50 player poker tourneys. far different tahn the thousand ppl i see a day.

bottom line poker is straight up game . everyoen gets 2 cards the same. very level. pool however is not even close to level. ill admit ive robbed and been robbed.

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I guess if your more into luck than skill, poker is the game for you. In pool, you can't bluff a shot that you need to make, you either make it or you don't. Sure, you can blow a shot and play the husstle game. In Poker, you can have a "garbage" hand and "bluff your way to a win. Do you really believe there are more husstlers in pool than in poker? If you do, I can't believe you're really a player.
How many times have you been beaten with pocket Kings or Aces by someone that caught 3 of a kind on the river? That's luck!
There's skill and luck involved in every game. Many people enjoy pool, many people enjoy poker, quite a few enjoy both. It's unfortunate you've had such a bad experience with pool.
One thing is for certain. Many, many more people have been hurt playing poker. Casinos aren't making billions of dollars because players are winning big.
You mentioned that "pool is way worse than poker" but you didn't mention how. I'd be interested in hearing that. I'm also not sure of what point that I missed (other than the luck vs. skill part) I've heard of far more poker stories where someone has "dumped" games in order to "up" the ante. It's the history of the game.
I could be wrong, I'll check when I get a chance, but I believe that Pool is considered a game of skill and Poker is considered a game of chance. That about says it all. If I'm going to bet money, I want to rely more on skill than luck.
Both games offer entertainment, I don't think we have to choose one over the other. Why not enjoy both?