14.1 Cue Ball

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
First I'd like to say thanks to many of you. The information I glean from this site is amazing. (as long as I avoid some of the high drama threads in other sections! Hehe)

Question for Sean: you mentioned on page one of this thread that the six dot measles is trademarked by Aramith. Yet I got a measles ball from Seyberts that was not Aramith and has six dots. Was going to post a link, but son of a gun, it is no longer on the web site that I can find.

Curious as to what I have. I'll try and weigh it soon for comparison sakes. In your experience, what are the primary deficiencies of a knock-off ball?

Thanks!

I will chime in with what I have found of the imposter.

The size, weight, and color are not correct.

Steve

Hi guys!

Steve's right -- if you've any experience with a genuine Aramith Pro-Cup (measles) ball, the imposter ball looks and feels incorrect. (Steve, that imposter ball you speak of -- was that the same ball in one of the "spare" sets of balls at the 14.1 Challenge booth? If so, I did notice a big difference when I hit a couple racks with it -- it didn't "feel" like a genuine measles ball at all.)

Also, I don't know if you guys noticed, but Aramith (or Saluc, rather) is getting pretty aggressive in their "avoid the imposters" campaign:

http://saluc.com/html/billiard/index.php?idlien=9

I recall seeing a couple ads already in the major pool magazines about this.

And, other than the obviously-different Sterling knock-off of the Aramith Pro-Cup ball (link provided previously, and which does have 8 red spots compared to the measles' 6, so that it's not "obviously intending" to mislead customers into thinking it's the real mccoy), most have been yanked from availability, probably due to Saluc's intervention. I respect Seyberts (and PoolDawg) for acting quickly when being notified that they're offering for sale a counterfeit of a trademarked product.

-Sean
 

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
Not sure that the 8 dot would be infringement, but I'm no lawyer. But more than likely Saluc threatened to pull their distributorship if they continued selling what they consider a counterfeit.
 

desmocourtney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sean,

May I suggest that you edit your original post to reflect reality? Not everyone will read the whole thread to get the correct info.

There is too much misinformation out there about cue balls and this is how it happens.

Thanks
Courtney
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Sean,

May I suggest that you edit your original post to reflect reality? Not everyone will read the whole thread to get the correct info.

There is too much misinformation out there about cue balls and this is how it happens.

Thanks
Courtney

Courtney:

What do you mean? Are you talking about the measles ball information, re: imposters?

And, while I respect the notion to correct misinformation about cue balls, you seem to be implying that "I'm a part of it" via your "...and this is how it happens" piece. I think you can see I'm actually trying to help, not misinform. Also, a lot of the information you see "progressing" through the thread is because that's how it transpired. It wasn't my doing, trust me, but I graciously accept corrections as quickly as they come.

-Sean
 

desmocourtney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sean,

I am talking about this;


Red Circle -- It's properly known as the Aramith Red Circle cue ball. This is the "zinger" cue ball that is approximately an ounce less in weight than the object balls, and is therefore a favorite of 9-ballers, because "it makes it easier for them to move the rock around" (especially with draw). This is definitely *NOT* a good ball to use for 14.1!


Nothing personal, I just hate to see bad info put out there in such an authoritative manner.

It would be great if someone like Dr Dave would investigate the different cue balls and report findings.

Thanks
Courtney
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Sean,

I am talking about this;


Red Circle -- It's properly known as the Aramith Red Circle cue ball. This is the "zinger" cue ball that is approximately an ounce less in weight than the object balls, and is therefore a favorite of 9-ballers, because "it makes it easier for them to move the rock around" (especially with draw). This is definitely *NOT* a good ball to use for 14.1!


Nothing personal, I just hate to see bad info put out there in such an authoritative manner.

It would be great if someone like Dr Dave would investigate the different cue balls and report findings.

Thanks
Courtney

Courtney:

Up until Saluc started "standardizing" their cue ball products (only recently, see the discussion between DogsPlayingPool and I, above), that information was true. I have a genuine Aramith Red Circle that I purchased about 6 years ago, that indeed is a full ounce lighter than the rest of the object balls! It was only a couple years ago that the Red Circle, Blue Circle, and measles ball all started to made in the same manner by Saluc.

Why do you feel that is "bad info"? And why would Dr. Dave make any difference, other than he has a website to document the info?

-Sean
 

RobMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I will chime in with what I have found of the imposter.

The size, weight, and color are not correct.

Steve

Hi guys!

Steve's right -- if you've any experience with a genuine Aramith Pro-Cup (measles) ball, the imposter ball looks and feels incorrect. (Steve, that imposter ball you speak of -- was that the same ball in one of the "spare" sets of balls at the 14.1 Challenge booth? If so, I did notice a big difference when I hit a couple racks with it -- it didn't "feel" like a genuine measles ball at all.)

Also, I don't know if you guys noticed, but Aramith (or Saluc, rather) is getting pretty aggressive in their "avoid the imposters" campaign:

http://saluc.com/html/billiard/index.php?idlien=9

I recall seeing a couple ads already in the major pool magazines about this.

And, other than the obviously-different Sterling knock-off of the Aramith Pro-Cup ball (link provided previously, and which does have 8 red spots compared to the measles' 6, so that it's not "obviously intending" to mislead customers into thinking it's the real mccoy), most have been yanked from availability, probably due to Saluc's intervention. I respect Seyberts (and PoolDawg) for acting quickly when being notified that they're offering for sale a counterfeit of a trademarked product.

-Sean


Thanks for the info guys! And yes tip of the hat to Seybert's for pulling the imposter off the site. I will purchase a genuine Aramith and give my imposter away. First, I will weigh and measure them out of curiosity!

Thanks again! ..Rob
 

desmocourtney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sean,

Your original post contains factual errors, bad info. Someone not reading the entire thread would get bad info.

It would be nice to know when, if ever, Saluc made a 5 oz. red circle cue ball. In my opinion a five ounce cue ball would be a gaff ball, not useable in competition. It is my understanding that the red and blue circle cue balls have always been very similar, but I'm really not sure about this. I am no expert!

Dr Dave has a good reputation for science.

Its your post, you can do as you see fit!

Courtney
 

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
It is my understanding that the red and blue circle cue balls have always been very similar, but I'm really not sure about this. I am no expert!

Courtney

If you read the Saluc spec sheet I posted you will see that the RC and BC are not the same ball. They are made from different resins. The BC and RL balls are said to be the same, but not the RC.
 

desmocourtney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you read the Saluc spec sheet I posted you will see that the RC and BC are not the same ball. They are made from different resins. The BC and RL balls are said to be the same, but not the RC.

I see.

That still does not tell us much though. Inquiring minds, you know.

What is the difference between Super Aramith and Super Aramith Pro resin?
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Sean,

Your original post contains factual errors, bad info. Someone not reading the entire thread would get bad info.

Courtney:

Someone reading my post would have had to read past another post by someone else that states basically the same thing, albeit packaged in a more soft-shoe way. Go look.

It would be nice to know when, if ever, Saluc made a 5 oz. red circle cue ball. In my opinion a five ounce cue ball would be a gaff ball, not useable in competition. It is my understanding that the red and blue circle cue balls have always been very similar, but I'm really not sure about this. I am no expert!

A couple points about this:

1. It's well-known that Aramith (and Saluc) have changed ball formulations over the years in various products, and even yanked one product's availability for a good while (measles ball), reoffering it at a later date where the "second generation" of that ball even looked different.

2. Aramith and Saluc have always been close-to-the-vest when it comes to information about any changes in their products. Hence, this thread, and other threads like it over, what, the span of a decade? Have we ever had a definitive cue ball thread? No. Until someone from the Saluc factory chimes in, and shares information that has not been shared to the public previously, all we have is speculation in many cases, and documented weights / pictures in another -- information that is frozen in a moment of time when that particular product was purchased.

3. Your impression of the red and blue circle balls doesn't match other posters in this thread, or other cue ball threads, yet you target me to change *my* post. Why is that?

Dr Dave has a good reputation for science.

Yes, Dr. Dave *does* have a good reputation for science. However, I doubt Dr. Dave can supply "missing" information from a manufacturer, unless he'd been buying cue balls over a long period of time for a specific, targeted study. Dr. Dave tends to lean towards the "here and now" of how things perform. And if he did that study now, he might find that the current Saluc products may all perform basically the same -- which was discussed above re: standardization of product line.

Its your post, you can do as you see fit!

Courtney

It's interesting that you are fixated with the information about specifically the red circle ball. You seem to have pain with the "an ounce less" aspect of that one bullet item. I want to comply with correcting any erroneous information from my side. Honest. As mentioned, I do have an Aramith red circle ball that *is* approximately an ounce less than the rest of the object balls. You seem to hint at using Searches which may turn up my post (vs. reading down through the thread, "stopping" at my post and not going further -- which you did say), searches of which will turn up the other posts in this thread and others.

However, in the spirit of making sure as many people are happy with [what I intend to be] helpful efforts here, I've fixed the wording to soft-shoe it a bit, only in that area where you're fixated. I'm not going to fix my post to include all the add-on information that came out for the other cue ball products, e.g. the measles ball and its changes, because that unfairly makes my post the collector of all this dynamic cue ball information, and my being put on the hook to have to maintain it going forward. If I'm going to do that, I'd want to make a dedicated cue ball thread where post #1 is the information collection and maintenance point (as is the practice here on AZB), putting it on the Main forum, not here in the 14.1 forum. At some point, I'll do that. The original intent of my post, however, was just to quickly share some information I know, not be "the" de-facto encyclopedic cue ball reference.

I do appreciate your concern about correct information, though. Believe me, I want to do my part.
-Sean
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
Thanks Sean.

I think a separate thread is needed with more info.

Courtney

I've been playing and teaching for more than 25 years now. There's universal agreement among those who were around to witness that the red circle cue ball was lighter (I have one in very good shape from the eighties, want me to weigh it?). I'm not sure how much lighter (because I forget - I do remember we weighed and measured balls to inform pool hall owners, primarily at league tournaments, that they shouldn't just assort/combine ball sets any way they like, and yes, they used to differ in both respects).

Most recently, I had to buy a whole new set of the TV-colour centennials after I wanted to practice some with the modern measles cue ball, only to notice it's bigger than my older Centennial set (also made by Aramith) - and no, not due to wear (use and/or cleaning), as I never used the original cue ball from that set, it is still as good as new.

We noticed the same in a pool hall where I'm teaching nearby where they bought the telly Pro Cup sets - those balls are bigger. They're in fact so much bigger that one tell with the naked eye! That's not to say the difference in size alone explains the difference in weight - after all, the red circle cue ball I have is the same size as the early Aramith Centennials. Just saying, it's not badmouthing when one points out there are tolerances, and always have been!

There's a reason 9-Ball players love the red-circle cue ball (draws easily), and why Straight Pool enthusiasts prefer not to use it (glances off the stack, needless to emphasize for the same reason: because it's lighter).

In short, what Sean is pointing out here is common knowledge. I've been following this conversation for a while and am now starting to lose my famous Swiss patience - why exactly is it he has to defend himself, or, for that matter, what do we need a new thread for?

:deadhorse: !!!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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desmocourtney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
David,

Sean never had to defend himself.

I suggested he edit his post. He did. Not a big deal.

I feel there is a need for more info on cue ball weight and size standards, past and present.

Cheers!
Courtney
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
David,

Sean never had to defend himself.

I suggested he edit his post. He did. Not a big deal.

I feel there is a need for more info on cue ball weight and size standards, past and present.

Cheers!
Courtney

Then why don't you go out and collect some data, and present it to us, so we can then tell you: see?! I personally don't see much use: apart from the difficulty in finding statistically relevant size samples (= we'd need a great number of new/unused old balls), this would be primarily of historical interest. The only interesting question is, has Saluc/Aramith solved this problem in the meantime, and are today's tolerances up to scratch?

I wouldn't bet on it: a pool hall owner in this country had to send all the number 6 balls in his new sets (= as many as there are tables in his hall) back and have them replaced, because they were all noticeably smaller.

I realize tolerances are not what we're discussing here, though: the question would be rather, why were certain cue balls systematically different from others? This I can't tell you. What I can tell you is that those I know who asked (a friend of mine is a table mechanic and importer) never got an answer. Apparently, according to Saluc, the problem is inexistent.

Ask the older pros, though: they'll tell you who insisted on the red circle cue ball to be used with Centennials and at which tournaments etc. When I travelled the U.S. the first couple of times in the eighties, there were posters announcing 9-Ball tournaments on which it was marked that the red circle cue ball would be used! Why? Because players with a lesser stroke figured they'd stand a chance in those tournaments, whereas if the stock cue ball had been used, some of them would not have participated - that's how important the weight difference was to people!

(On a side note: as a foreigner, this was rather surprising to me at the time, but trying it, I could immediately tell the difference, and understood where those people were coming from. And on a somewhat unrelated side note: I used to like the red circle cue ball for a reason few ever mention - it's much easier to make the cue ball travel on the exact tangent line on e.g. stun shots, that is, stop shots at an angle, which is what good position players use most often.)

And here you are wondering if any of it ever happened?!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yes, Dr. Dave *does* have a good reputation for science. However, I doubt Dr. Dave can supply "missing" information from a manufacturer, unless he'd been buying cue balls over a long period of time for a specific, targeted study. Dr. Dave tends to lean towards the "here and now" of how things perform. And if he did that study now, he might find that the current Saluc products may all perform basically the same -- which was discussed above re: standardization of product line.
I certainly approve that cue balls do seems to be more uniform in weight and size than they were in the past (especially in bar-boxes).

FYI, on a side (but related) note, I recently wrote a series of articles for BD dealing with ball weight and size difference effects. Here they are:
"Ball Weight and Size Difference Effects – Part I" (Billiards Digest, February, 2012).
"Ball Weight and Size Difference Effects – Part II" (Billiards Digest, March, 2012).​

Bob Jewett and I also created a video demonstrating all of the effects related to ball weight and size differences. Here it is:

FYI, here are a couple of quotes from the first article concerning ball weight differences in typical used equipment:
Generally, with an originally equal-weight set, the CB will tend to be slightly smaller and lighter because it takes more abuse from the cue tip, other balls, and cloth, and it wears faster as a result. The 1-ball can also be smaller and lighter than the other OBs because it takes the full force of the break at the front of the rack. Also, if a new CB is used with an older OB set (e.g., when a CB is replaced due to damage, which seems to occur more and more with phenolic-tip break and jump cues), the CB will generally be slightly larger and heavier than the worn OBs not replaced. The size and weight differences are usually very small, but the effects can sometimes be noticeable, especially on those older bar boxes.

...

To see how much ball weight can vary in typical conditions, I took an accurate digital scale to my local pool hall (“Match Ups” in Fort Collins, Colorado). I weighed the CB and randomly selected OBs (and the 1-ball specifically) in each of eight Valley bar boxes with the assistance and permission of the owners. (Thanks Mike and Nicole!) The CB weights were fairly consistent with an average of 5.89 oz, a minimum of 5.78 oz, and a maximum of 5.93 oz. The OB weights were lighter (2-3 percent on average) and less consistent with an average of 5.75 oz, a minimum of 5.47 oz and a maximum of 5.89 oz. The lightest OB was a 1-ball, which makes sense based on the extra abuse it takes (but this could also just be coincidence). If the heaviest CB were paired up with the lightest OB, the percentage difference would be about 8%. Luckily, this is still much less than the 25% difference demonstrated with the pool and carom balls in HSV B.49. However, the weight-difference effects in this article would definitely be noticeable with this particular CB-OB combination, especially to a good and observant player.​

Regards,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I feel there is a need for more info on cue ball weight and size standards, past and present.
Agreed.

I certainly learned a few things in this thread, and I am glad all of the posters contributed their knowledge and information. In fact, I think the info was interesting enough to summarize (with quotes and links to the original posts) on a new resource page: cue ball types.

If the people I quoted would like the text or citations to read differently, please let me know.

Regards,
Dave
 
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sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks, Dave. That's great stuff -- I'd seen those articles in print, btw. (I'm a loyal B.D., P&B, and I.P. subscriber. :) )

What I think Courtney is saying, is that while the effects of cue ball differences are known, what is not documented are the product names (e.g. "Red Circle") and their size/weight/performance characteristics at the table throughout that product's to-date lifespan.

I think you'll agree that this kind of information is a tough nut to crack, given Aramith's/Saluc's traditional "we didn't do anything" close-to-the-vest stance concerning their products.

It would be an interesting and very valuable study, but a tough one to execute -- and one that would need constant revisions, as information about different manufacturing "runs" of the same ball product (that show performance differences) are discovered.

What I think most agree on, is that the red circle ball is by and large a "BYOB" (bring your own ball) -- a standalone specialty cue ball product from Aramith that was never bundled with full ball sets. This is especially curious when you consider that all of Aramith's other cue ball offerings, including the Pro Cup (measles) ball -- probably the de-facto example of a "specialty" ball -- have been or currently are bundled with full ball sets. This just speaks to how different the red circle cue ball product is -- it's too different to be included with full ball sets and have that ball set be considered a "matched" set.

I know I hate playing 14.1 or even One Pocket with my Red Circle. I can't tell you how many times I've had that Red Circle glance off the pile in a weird tangent, or outright scratch in a properly executed One Pocket opening break (and without being caromed in by another ball leaking out of the pack on the same side as the cue ball).

-Sean
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
What I think Courtney is saying, is that while the effects of cue ball differences are known, what is not documented are the product names (e.g. "Red Circle") and their size/weight/performance characteristics at the table throughout that product's to-date lifespan.
I agree with you and Courtney that this would be useful info.

Regards,
Dave
 
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