Question About Deliberate Practice for Experienced Instructors

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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Since we shifted to Guitars. WES MONTGOMERY. Beatle music? Wes Montgomery. His album A Day in the Life is classic...thats if you like jazz guitar.

Love it! (And I apologize for steering the thread off topic.:grin:)
 

GoldCrown

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Love it! (And I apologize for steering the thread off topic.:grin:)

That is a good one.

Don't apologize. For the sake of practice I could not learn/read music regardless of how much I put into it. I could learn to play by ear if I put enough into it. I'm jealous of any musician...in a good way. My favorite piece by Wes has to be Bumpin. My 2 favorite things in life have been listening/collecting jazz and playing pool.

And back to the thread.....whatever works for the individual is the best way to learn. I do appreciate the instructors saying short is better. That is what I enjoy. If someone want to spends hours practicing and their skill level is advancing that's quite ok. Cannot argue or disagree with progress. I took stroke lessons and now working on 1pocket. I'm learning drills and table play. I like to keep the drills short until I understand what has to be done...at that point I can increase a session or practice until I loose focus.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Don't apologize. For the sake of practice I could not learn/read music regardless of how much I put into it. I could learn to play by ear if I put enough into it. I'm jealous of any musician...in a good way. My favorite piece by Wes has to be Bumpin. My 2 favorite things in life have been listening/collecting jazz and playing pool.

And back to the thread.....whatever works for the individual is the best way to learn. I do appreciate the instructors saying short is better. That is what I enjoy. If someone want to spends hours practicing and their skill level is advancing that's quite ok. Cannot argue or disagree with progress. I took stroke lessons and now working on 1pocket. I'm learning drills and table play. I like to keep the drills short until I understand what has to be done...at that point I can increase a session or practice until I loose focus.

Not sure how you'll feel about record scratches in jazz music, but try this one on for size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUcr4t2Atw




Yes, back to the topic. I agree that in certain cases (like yours, age) that perhaps shorter practice sessions can be valuable, but that's only because long sessions aren't really an option. However, that doesn't seem to be what those instructors are putting out there. Instead, it's a one size fits all approach, that everyone would benefit from two 20 minute practice sessions a day.

As BD stated, that's simply not true when you look at real world examples of great pool players.
 

GoldCrown

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Not sure how you'll feel about record scratches in jazz music, but try this one on for size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUcr4t2Atw




Yes, back to the topic. I agree that in certain cases (like yours, age) that perhaps shorter practice sessions can be valuable, but that's only because long sessions aren't really an option. However, that doesn't seem to be what those instructors are putting out there. Instead, it's a one size fits all approach, that everyone would benefit from two 20 minute practice sessions a day.

As BD stated, that's simply not true when you look at real world examples of great pool players.

Utube ... nice sound. Very Herbie Mann at 3minutes. I'm a fan of Hubert Laws, Herbie Mann, Dave Valentine. Records scratches....pure character. They go with the territory.
I'm sorry I mentioned the (my) age bit and practice sessions. As far as practice sessions and instructors I had both...One said HAMB and other said short is sweet. And that was way back. I guess it's who we connect with or what works best. If a student and instructor are clicking stay their course. Practice until we get it right. There is no substitute.
As for pro's...can we separate them from what they do and what we do.
 

boyersj

Indiana VNEA State Champ
Silver Member
I am going to attempt to use a few examples to clarify the differing opinions of how much time should be spent practicing.
I have read many references to 8 hour practice session so I am going to use that as the base line of my examples.

Example 1: Working on improving lag speed
Take a ball and place it on the same spot using some marking device and do a lag shot. ie. send it to the foot rail and then back to the head cushion
Measure the distance in inches from the head cushion and record onto a piece of paper. Record the time for each test.
Perform that task for 8 hours and then plot your results, Distance from rail vs shot number, starting with 1.

Example 2: Ghost drill evaluation
Rack up 9 ball, and break the balls. Play a race to 5 where you get ball in hand after the break.
Start with removing the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 balls immediately after the break. (This is known as 3 ball ghost, with full rack break). If you win the set, repeat but leave the 6 ball on the table.
Continue this until you can beat the 9 ball ghost (removing no balls after the break) or until you find the Ghost race that is even with your speed.
Continue this for 8 hours, and record your score accounting for the ghost level and the win/lose score.

Example 3: Throw balls out on the table and knock them in, either in rotation or not, this is a personal preference. Don't bother to write down any results because there are no measurable results to record.

So example 1 is a fine motor skills type of drill, that requires quite a bit of focus and im going to be that not many people are capable of performing that drill for 8 hours.
If anyone is able to perform that drill for 8 hours, graph the results of each shot - at two shots per minute that would be 960 shots.
I will additionally challenge that the distance from the head rail will not statistically improve after the 40th shot (20 minutes).

I will spice this example up and for the person who will video themselves and send me the DVD and the paper that they recorded the results with a graph that shows improvement after the 200th shot;
I will send your choice of $100 worth of billiard supplies from Seyberts or comparable vendors.

Example two is not a drill, but is an exercise that is not motor skill specific, but it still has feedback with measurable results.
Because it is not a motor skill drill we can sustain that activity for longer periods of time.
There are two parts to this exercise: first determining our ghost equivalent, and second is repeatedly trying to beat that level.
This is a bit more enjoyable activity but I still challenge the payback of 8 hours of continual effort.
I will offer the same reward to someone who can provide video evidence that they can beat a ghost 2 balls better after 8 hours than the first loss they took.

Example 3 is what many people consider practice, however it has no real motor skill focus (compare to example 1) nor does it have a measurable feedback.
This is considered "play" to an instructor and it is the nemesis of real improvement.
This is addictive part of pool that Fran references, it does improve aiming but for most players pocketing balls is not the challenge.
Putting the cue ball where we want for the next shot over and over is the challenge.
I will digress that this is a great exercise for a low skill level player because if they struggle with making balls, they would get discouraged at example 1 and example 2.

I will say that even example 3 for 8 hours will tend to get monotonous, and when we spend that much time on the table there is some social and or competitive aspects that allow us to stay engaged.

I have given some 8 hour lessons, bear in mind this was not me focusing on myself, but on someone else - and I was exhausted mentally.
They were as well, and that is why most instructors of all motor skills activities encourage their students to do lots of short highly focused sessions instead of long semi focused sessions.

Think about this for a moment... A 3 hour college course typically meets 3 times a week for 15 weeks at 50 minutes per class,
sometimes there are "power hour" classes that meet for 75 minutes twice a week, but this is still 150 minutes a week. thats 2250 minutes or 37.5 hours.
If it was more effective to learn in 8 hour chucks, why wouldn't they have a 3 credit hour class last a 5 day week?

I hope my post is informational and someone finds value in the contents.
 
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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Not sure how you'll feel about record scratches in jazz music, but try this one on for size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUcr4t2Atw




Yes, back to the topic. I agree that in certain cases (like yours, age) that perhaps shorter practice sessions can be valuable, but that's only because long sessions aren't really an option. However, that doesn't seem to be what those instructors are putting out there. Instead, it's a one size fits all approach, that everyone would benefit from two 20 minute practice sessions a day.

As BD stated, that's simply not true when you look at real world examples of great pool players.

I would venture a guess that the better instructors, when one-on-one with a student, suggest a more targeted method of practice based on that particular student, rather than a one size fits all style of practice. It is much more productive to set a certain amount of successful shot attempts than to set a time limit. For example....when practicing pattern play, if you know you can consistently run five open balls (better than 8 out of 10 times), tell yourself you're going to have to run six balls at least 3 times in a row before you're finished with the session. It may take 15 minutes or an hour, the click isn't what you are trying to satisfy.
 

PocketSpeed11

AzB Long Member
Silver Member
Because of issues of renovation, coincidentally at both of the places I shoot at, I haven't shot in a few days. But here is how I've decided to go about my practice routine: For one month, I will solely devote my time at the table to a well-rounded regimen of drills. At least half of these drills will feature recorded feedback. For the second month I will bookend focused practice play with 20 minutes of drills. I know 20 minutes separated over many hours, including hours of non-play, would be ideal, but it isn't feasible for me at this stage of my life. In a few years, with my own home and own table it will be.

I like how somebody mentioned The Talent Code. I thought that was a great book. I'm currently reading Peak: Secrets From The New Science Of Expertise. It is a slower read, but it was written by psychology professor who essentially spearheaded the focused study of expertise in psychology. Measured feedback is stressed in the book. The author also conducted a study with violinists. The violinists overwhelmingly stated that the labor-intensive practice that wasn't fun was most important to their improvement.

After these two months of practice, I'll assess how I should proceed with my practice. Of course, what might work best for me wouldn't work as well for others. I'll update you guys after a month to how it's going. Thanks for the advice everybody.
 

poolnut7879

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's a tip from Daniel Coyle, author of The Little Book of Talent. Don't call a drill a drill. Call it a challenge instead. Sounds much more inviting and fun.
 

goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Because of issues of renovation, coincidentally at both of the places I shoot at, I haven't shot in a few days. But here is how I've decided to go about my practice routine: For one month, I will solely devote my time at the table to a well-rounded regimen of drills. At least half of these drills will feature recorded feedback. For the second month I will bookend focused practice play with 20 minutes of drills. I know 20 minutes separated over many hours, including hours of non-play, would be ideal, but it isn't feasible for me at this stage of my life. In a few years, with my own home and own table it will be.

I like how somebody mentioned The Talent Code. I thought that was a great book. I'm currently reading Peak: Secrets From The New Science Of Expertise. It is a slower read, but it was written by psychology professor who essentially spearheaded the focused study of expertise in psychology. Measured feedback is stressed in the book. The author also conducted a study with violinists. The violinists overwhelmingly stated that the labor-intensive practice that wasn't fun was most important to their improvement.

After these two months of practice, I'll assess how I should proceed with my practice. Of course, what might work best for me wouldn't work as well for others. I'll update you guys after a month to how it's going. Thanks for the advice everybody.


Don't forget to play in between those practice rounds.

randyg
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jon...What you and Chris and several others just don't get, is that this type of practice is for when you have already developed the "hard skills", as described by Coyle. In order to develop those skills to a point where you can apply them at the table there is a progressive practice regimen that is geared to each students needs. Some will practice that regimen for an hour...some for a couple of hours. This is done in bits and pieces that coordinate and build on each other. The 20 minute routine is for maintaining the requisite skills, once you're able to make them a habit. Nothing is ever "one size fits all" and nothing is cookie cutter. Each student is an individual.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Yes, back to the topic. I agree that in certain cases (like yours, age) that perhaps shorter practice sessions can be valuable, but that's only because long sessions aren't really an option. However, that doesn't seem to be what those instructors are putting out there. Instead, it's a one size fits all approach, that everyone would benefit from two 20 minute practice sessions a day.

As BD stated, that's simply not true when you look at real world examples of great pool players.
 

PocketSpeed11

AzB Long Member
Silver Member
It's hard to believe it's almost been a month since I posted. My goal was to have a month of just doing drill after drill with no practice play. I soon realized how less effective a massive rotation of various drills without practice play would be compared to practice play intermixed with a smaller amount of drills each day. I'm sure some of you, and it has already been indicated, were fully aware of this. For instance, I'll conduct a challenging, but not too challenging, safety drill for several minutes and always make sure I end with a good safety. Then I will conduct a rack or two of practice play and go back to that same drill. I might do this like 3 or 4 times with the same drill. It was made obvious that this was far more effective than just doing it once and moving on to another drill for the day. As for my month experiment, it is no longer. I will just continue to practice play intermixed with a smaller number of drills each day as long as I'm playing. The improvements from this small sample size are already evident.
 
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