Measles cueball vs Red Circle cueball weight differences

Bob Jewett said:

Another factor to consider is that the balls can be of different elasticity. I've heard that Aramith tests their carom balls by bouncing them off a steel block and the ones that bounce the highest (most elastic) are reserved for tournament play. I think it is very difficult to measure elasticity on the table because it can be mistaken for a difference in weight.

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You've been talking to Greg...cheater...LMAO, I told him before I even posted here that I was going to stir things up in this forum just for the fun of it...LOL

Glen

I know the Diamond tables inside and out, so I thought this thread might be a little fun...it was, and it got a lot of people taking, which is a good thing...beats watching the grass grow...hehe

Bob Jewett said:

...Maybe the pool halls you go to change out the balls often enough for it not to be a problem, but most pool halls keep ball sets in play for a long time, and the cue ball wears down faster than the object balls...

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As an aside, I have found that almost every pool hall has a table (or a few) that they keep up for the real players. The rest of the tables are for the bangers. The banger tables get the mismatched balls and old worn cue balls. When a new set of balls is ordered, the "good" tables get first dibs, and the other tables get the hand me down balls. Sometimes it's hard to get on the good table - even when it's vacant...

Bob Jewett said:

...As far as the difference in cue ball action, as I also pointed out in my article, for the cue ball size problems I saw in a real pool hall, the difference in mass would make roughly a 1-diamond difference in a 2- or 3-diamond draw or follow shot.

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I would be interested in seeing how slight a difference in mass existed to give those results. Did you do a weight difference plot for these results?

It seems that only a fairly substantial difference would result in 12 additional inches of draw on a 24 inch draw shot. Does an extra diamond of draw also mean that the cue ball would rebound a full foot on a stop shot.

I did some dirty math (aka bad math) using a one second rebound time. For a 10 MPH shot (14.66ft/sec), the cue ball should weigh around 4.48 oz to get a foot rebound (a rebound of 2 ft/sec for 1 second). I know this isn't exact (because I substituted velocity for acceleration since I couldn't remember how to determine the acceleration of a rebounding sphere in an elastic collision). But at least I chose a 1 second rebound time so my error wouldn't be squared and multiplied - doh! Anyway, this same math indicates that a 1 ft/sec rebound necessitates a 5.15oz ball.

If any of that is a close approximation of the real world, it shows that for a 12 inch rebound, a cue ball must be around 4.5 oz instead of 5.9 oz. I would hope that I could easily spot a -23% loss in mass

-td

I agree with Scott (Snapshot). The measle ball has nuances of the old mud ball. Not as extreme, but you can definitely tell the difference.
Danny

td873 -- As you no doubt know, there's more calculation involved in this than momentum. I'd hazard a guess that the effective efficiency of the conversion of rotational K.E. to translational K.E. is impacted by a much smaller change in weight than you're thinking.

For example, I'm thinking that there's less heat loss on a draw shot given a light cueball...but I'm no mechanical engineer. Perhaps I'll read that science of pocket billiards one day and confirm/refute this.

Kent said:

I am not doubting Bob's information but am curious. If the table has an optial sensor then it would need power for the sensor as well as power to activate a solenoid to route the cue ball. I don't know of any mechanical optical snesors. I don't recall seeing any pool tables plugged into an outlet nor have I heard of batteries being changed. Just curious as to how this works.

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Q-scan out of Oregon and Washington. We tried to infiltrate California but not much luck. Its a secret how it works. Or thats what I was told.

I have a big ball in my purse just in case this thread goes on and on.

Kent said:

I am not doubting Bob's information but am curious. If the table has an optial sensor then it would need power for the sensor as well as power to activate a solenoid to route the cue ball. I don't know of any mechanical optical snesors. I don't recall seeing any pool tables plugged into an outlet nor have I heard of batteries being changed. Just curious as to how this works.

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See post #42

Snapshot9 said:

All the players I know switch cue balls when a Measles is on a scheduled match table. It has slight nuances of the old big Mud cue ball (2 3/8" cue ball). I don't care for it, never have, and if you shoot a shot and can't figure out how the cue ball will spin from the english you put on it, then you need to give up Pool.
...For instructing purposes, it may be okay, but I see no other practical purpose for it. It became a 'fad' in the cue ball area, and they sold you a bill of goods, as far as I am concerned. About like the Elephant balls they came out with.

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I don't like the measles ball either. I switch out the MB for a red circle or Super Aramith at the counter before I go to the table. I've heard that the MB was invented for use on TV, however it's not the cueball that's hard to see. But depending upon the broadcast, it's the 2, 4, 6, 7 and 8 balls which are difficult to distinguish.

To me, the MB is distracting to my eye. I'd just as soon use the 15 ball for a CB! Most guys have told me that one gets accustomed to the "measles" after it's used awhile.

But it's the MB hit that I don't like. I feel that it plays light. Perhaps it's the elasticity Bob J. was talking about. That makes more sense. With all cueballs, the snowy white ones seem to play lighter than do the darker ones. Perhaps there's a slightly different polymer used for the two shades. If so, that might cause the snowy white ones to be more elastic, therefore more "lively". I can't imagine that manufacturers would switch between two different polymers; so perhaps they used to utilize one type, then have since switched to another.

Doc

Bob Jewett said:

Another factor to consider is that the balls can be of different elasticity. I've heard that Aramith tests their carom balls by bouncing them off a steel block and the ones that bounce the highest (most elastic) are reserved for tournament play. I think it is very difficult to measure elasticity on the table because it can be mistaken for a difference in weight.

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Can you describe what "elasticity" is, how it makes balls bouncier and what that means generally for ball/ball interactions? I've only heard about it in pieces and haven't been able to add it all up.

Thanks,

pj
chgo

belmicah said:

I am glad we have all finally come to the conlcusion that Glen has no idea WTF he is talking about.

Having said that, all balls will have very slight variance in volume, mass, and therefore density, etc. and this is what causes differences in playability from one cue ball (or set) to another.

I also propose that the modulus of elasticity from phenolic resins used from one cue ball to the next might have some variance as well.

One thing to note is, as a previous poster said about moment of inertia, having more mass toward the outer edge of the ball will affect how it rolls. Maybe the super pro cup ball (measles) has a different moment of Inertia than that of the red circle and others due to the dispersion of mass throughout its whole. A homogenious ball should be the goal of manufacturers, but I suppose is almost impossible.

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As I mentionied in this post...the modulus of elasticity is a value that represents the force exerted outward when an object is compressed, therefore giving it "springiness." The higher the force exerted outwardly, the higher the modulus of elasticity, and the higher (or further) it will bounce. It is a ratio of stress/strain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_modulus

Bob Jewett said:

Elasticity is how well a ball will transfer its energy to another ball. On a stop shot, we hope for the object ball to leave with 100% of the cue ball's incoming speed. If the balls are inelastic, the object ball will get only part of the cue ball's speed. A result of this, required by the laws of conservation of energy and momentum, is that the cue ball will retain some of its initial velocity, and be going forward slightly after the collision. This action is much more visible with ivory balls which are much less elastic than pool balls.

One way to measure elasticity is to bounce a ball off a very hard, heavy object, like a steel block. (This gives a situation just like two balls running at each other with the same speed, since neither ball will penetrate the point where they collide, just as the ball will not penetrate (significantly) the steel block.) Neglecting air resistance, the bounce height divided by the starting height gives the square of the "coefficient of restitution" of the collision, and gives a ratio of speeds before and after the collision. Wikipedia has several sections on this stuff.

If a cue ball is inelastic, it will follow well and draw poorly even though it is the same mass as the object ball.

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In my mind I'm sending you some green things. In reality (an entirely different place) I don't know how or what you'd do with them anyway.

pj
chgo

Danny Diliberto on an accustats video said that he did some testing and the measles ball is lighter.

belmicah said:

As I mentionied in this post...the modulus of elasticity is a value that represents the force exerted outward when an object is compressed, therefore giving it "springiness." The higher the force exerted outwardly, the higher the modulus of elasticity, and the higher (or further) it will bounce. It is a ratio of stress/strain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_modulus

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It seems to me that a uniform density would throw out this theory...it just sounds retarded. They do use the same material to make all of their cue balls, right?

The phenolic resins used may have been molded differently, as stated by previous poster, or may just have a different composition.

You're right in that density does have a lot to do with it.

I was simply throwing out facts to support my, and others', theories. I don't really know why balls may roll differently, or how exactly they are made.

belmicah said:

The phenolic resins used may have been molded differently, as stated by previous poster, or may just have a different composition.

You're right in that density does have a lot to do with it.

I was simply throwing out facts to support my, and others', theories. I don't really know why balls may roll differently, or how exactly they are made.

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I don't know how they're made, either... I'm just saying that if they have any kind of quality control in place (which they must) than it is unlikely.

Honestly, I've always been able to tell the difference between the pro cup and a red dot. I think the pro cup is heavier. I've also always said there is a difference between centenials and aramith pros, too...but everyone tells me they're the same material, made in the same factory, by the same company, etc... I can tell the difference, and I don't need to come up with long complicated theories as to why...it doesn't really matter. I'm interested in knowing why, but just citing something random with no reason to beleive that has anything to do with it just seems kind of nuts.

belmicah said:

As I mentionied in this post...the modulus of elasticity is a value that represents the force exerted outward when an object is compressed, therefore giving it "springiness." The higher the force exerted outwardly, the higher the modulus of elasticity, and the higher (or further) it will bounce. It is a ratio of stress/strain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_modulus

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I didn't notice before that this might have been an answer to my question. If so, green things to you in my mind too.

pj
chgo

Aramith Cue Balls - Some History from Tom Simpson

Here's a 2000 RSB post from Tom Simpson (the Elephant Balls guy) with some interesting info about the Saluc/Aramith cue balls.

Apparently the red circle and blue circle cue balls are made from different resins, which means they could act differently even if the same weight. Nothing here about the measles ball, but it could also be made of a different resin.

The other interesting stuff here is that both kinds were being made by another company before 1981 and were identical then, and that back in those days the manufacturer made lighter "super draw" cue balls for room owners.

pj
chgo

===================================

From: tom simpson <tsimp...@columbus.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Blue Circle vs. Red Circle - the truth is out there
Date: 2000/04/25

[snip another poster's comments]

::You must have spoken with my buddy Bob Simpson (no relation)
:: of Hyatt Ball. I called him today to look into this matter.
::He made the Centennials until 1981, when Saluc "stole the
::contract by taking a big loss on it." He assures me that yes
::indeed, when Hyatt made them, the Blue Circles and the Red
::Circles were identical. The only difference was the Blue
::Circles were held to a tighter tolerance (+/- .001).
::
::I suspect that Saluc is not maintaining this similarity.
::Their web site says they are using a different formula for
::the Amariths vs. the Aramith Super Pro's, so it's entirely
:: possible that the material is different.
::
::Here's a tidbit that may clear up some ancient mysteries for
::some of you: Bob told me that he would occasionally get
:: orders for "draw cueballs". He would make batches of
::cueballs up to 10% lighter than normal (with the same
::diameter) and fill these orders. Ten percent! He said they
::were usually bought by room owners. We speculated that the
::room owners had the idea that players would feel they played
::well and got lots of ball action on Room X's "great
::equipment." The draw cueballs were not marked in any way.
::
::I have an inquiry in to Saluc, and I'll report what I learn
:: (if anything) in this thread. It's pretty silly that we
::don't know this basic fact.
::
:: tom simpson

It took two months and three tries, but today I got a response
from Saluc. Here it is:

Dear Mr. Simpson,

Please find below our comments on your April 25 e-mail.

1. In our top line of American Pool balls 2" 1/4 we are
manufacturing two sets :

a) "SUPER ARAMITH PRO" set (blue box) with a red triangle cue
ball
b) "BRUNSWICK CENTENNIAL" set (Brunswick box) with a blue
circle cue ball

For your information, the above 2 products are exactly the
same : the only difference is their design.

2. The "red circle" cue balls are produced with a different
kind of cast phenolic resin. This is the only difference with
the above 2 cue balls.

Best regards,

SALUC S.A. - Belgium


At least now we know SOMETHING! I replied with more questions
about why the different resin, is the resilience the same, and
so on. I'll report further, if I get anywhere.

It could still be true that the Blue Circles and the Red
Circles are different weights, since they are different
materials, but they didn't specifically address that question.
I'm sure the language barrier is part of the problem.

tom simpson

Patrick Johnson said:

Here's a 2004 RSB post from Tom Simpson (the Elephant Balls guy) with some interesting info about the Saluc/Aramith cue balls.

Apparently the red circle and blue circle cue balls are made from different resins, which means they could act differently even if the same weight. Nothing here about the measles ball, but it could also be made of a different resin.

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Nice find! Now I will begin considering this possibility.