Efren Reyes vs. Ronnie Allen

freddy the beard

Freddy Bentivegna
Silver Member
race to four

Island Drive said:
I don't think Ronnie ever really cared about the tournament stats, he used them as a platform for business, and there weren't many one hole tourneys that I recall + in Johnston City if I remember correctly it was a race to 3 which is pretty short for the caliber of players from the depression era.

They were races to four. If they were races to three I might have won the tournament since I had Ronnie 3 games to two for 2nd place in 71 or 72. (he won the next two games)
the Beard
 

freddy the beard

Freddy Bentivegna
Silver Member
Rags

jay helfert said:
... And the old timers like Beenie and Earl Shriver put Philadelphia Rags (White Rags/John Fitzpatrick) on a pedestal as the best ever in the 50's.

I love when I can correct you, Jay. He was known as "Washington" Rags.
He came to Bensingers in Chicago once, and broke half the city when he gave "Pony" Rosen 8 to 6 and the break on a 5 x 10. Pony once beat Eddie Taylor (at Bensingers) with 8 to 7.
the Beard
 

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jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
freddy the beard said:
I love when I can correct you, Jay. He was known as "Washington" Rags.
He came to Bensingers in Chicago once, and broke half the city when he gave "Pony" Rosen 8 to 6 and the break on a 5 x 10. Pony once beat Eddie Taylor (at Bensingers) with 8 to 7.
the Beard

OK, Ok, Ok, you the Man! He WAS Washington Rags. Maybe I heard Philly somewhere too. You do remember Marvin, don't you. You were in L.A. for a while back then. To this day, I have never seen anyone with a more beautiful stroke than Marvin, and Eddie Kelly was second best there. What player today is as graceful and artistic as Kelly. Marvin Henderson on a pool table was a work of art and I'm glad I got a glimpse of that pure beauty. When I see it again I will tell you.

Everyone can talk all they want about how great the players are today, but those guys from the 60's and 70's weren't too shabby either. No one talks anymore about who the best All Around player is. That used to be a hot topic of conversation 30 years ago, because all the good players played all games. Not just 9-Ball or One Pocket.

Freddie you may agree that if all the players gambled at One Pocket, 9 Ball and 14.1, Kelly was the favorite. He played all games top speed. Remember, he came back after over ten years off and won Grady's big One Pocket shindig in Reno in 1991. And all the best players were there.

You and I know that high speed pool is as much about heart and character, as it is about stroke and ball pocketing ability. Who can pull the trigger when all the cash is on the line. There is a reason these guys are legends.
Ronnie, Kelly, Red, Richie, Denny. They were poolplayers! As good as any that ever lived, Filipino, German or otherwise.

And I'll go to my grave believing that.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
OK, Ok, Ok, you the Man! He WAS Washington Rags. Maybe I heard Philly somewhere too. You do remember Marvin, don't you. You were in L.A. for a while back then. To this day, I have never seen anyone with a more beautiful stroke than Marvin, and Eddie Kelly was second best there. What player today is as graceful and artistic as Kelly. Marvin Henderson on a pool table was a work of art and I'm glad I got a glimpse of that pure beauty. When I see it again I will tell you.

Everyone can talk all they want about how great the players are today, but those guys from the 60's and 70's weren't too shabby either. No one talks anymore about who the best All Around player is. That used to be a hot topic of conversation 30 years ago, because all the good players played all games. Not just 9-Ball or One Pocket.

Freddie you may agree that if all the players gambled at One Pocket, 9 Ball and 14.1, Kelly was the favorite. He played all games top speed. Remember, he came back after over ten years off and won Grady's big One Pocket shindig in Reno in 1991. And all the best players were there.

You and I know that high speed pool is as much about heart and character, as it is about stroke and ball pocketing ability. Who can pull the trigger when all the cash is on the line. There is a reason these guys are legends.
Ronnie, Kelly, Red, Richie, Denny. They were poolplayers! As good as any that ever lived, Filipino, German or otherwise.

And I'll go to my grave believing that.

And by the way, there is NO one today who banks like Bugs or Taylor. Even the wonderful Jason Miller would be eaten alive by these two. The Bugs of 1975 to 1985 could spot any past winner of the Banks at Derby City two balls, in my opinion (Full Rack Banks). After he hit you with eight and out six or seven times, you would be looking for the door. I don't care who you are.
 

BackPocket9Ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
And by the way, there is NO one today who banks like Bugs or Taylor. Even the wonderful Jason Miller would be eaten alive by these two. The Bugs of 1975 to 1985 could spot any past winner of the Banks at Derby City two balls, in my opinion (Full Rack Banks). After he hit you with eight and out six or seven times, you would be looking for the door. I don't care who you are.

Jay, Do you think that Bugs would come away with the cash giving Shannon Daulton, John Brumback, Piggy Banks, or Truman Hogue 2 balls playing banks? I'll agree that he'd be the favorite playing these guys, but not giving up 9-7 or 10-8.
 

Alex Kanapilly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jay and Freddie,

I know this has been said before and I don't know where you two stand on it but PLEASE write a book! Hell, write an article in a periodical, do something. Or if you don't want to do that, get someone to tape the two of you in room together telling stories, I'd buy that.

Don't get me wrong, I love reading this stuff here for free but I just think it would be a great book, especially if it was all about gambling and matching up, gun slinger style.

Alex
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
BackPocket9Ball said:
Jay, Do you think that Bugs would come away with the cash giving Shannon Daulton, John Brumback, Piggy Banks, or Truman Hogue 2 balls playing banks? I'll agree that he'd be the favorite playing these guys, but not giving up 9-7 or 10-8.

He did give Truman a spot and beat him. Check with Freddie but I recollect something like 10-8. And that was Truman in his prime.

Piggy banks got to see the best Bugs and knows wherefore I speak. I suspect he wouldn't match up with Bugs without at least two balls. Okay, I just got off the phone with Piggy. He said no way he would play Bugs with two balls. He said Bugs spotted everybody but Taylor, and beat them all. His toughest opponent with two balls was Tony Fargo. Vernon Elliott, Truman, Cornbread, Shorty all got 8-7 or more, and lost! And the list goes on and on. Bugs played everybody back then and gave up weight to everyone, but Youngblood Washington (probably one of the top five players who ever lived) and Taylor.

So, in answer to your question, YES. they would all need two balls to have any chance, slim tho it might be.
 

huckster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
He did give Truman a spot and beat him. Check with Freddie but I recollect something like 10-8. And that was Truman in his prime.

Piggy banks got to see the best Bugs and knows wherefore I speak. I suspect he wouldn't match up with Bugs without at least two balls. Okay, I just got off the phone with Piggy. He said no way he would play Bugs with two balls. He said Bugs spotted everybody but Taylor, and beat them all. His toughest opponent with two balls was Tony Fargo. Vernon Elliott, Truman, Cornbread, Shorty all got 8-7 or more, and lost! And the list goes on and on. Bugs played everybody back then and gave up weight to everyone, but Youngblood Washington (probably one of the top five players who ever lived) and Taylor.

So, in answer to your question, YES. they would all need two balls to have any chance, slim tho it might be.


Jay,
I know Bugs was a monster I got to see him well past his prime around (90 or 91) but I will never forget he walked into the room with about five guys and they talked started "that is Chicago Bugs Rucker" he ended up playing five hundred a game one pocket with a pretty strong player and after four games winner the local quit. I had the honor of going in with four other guys backing Glen Knowles against Bugs playing banks. The game was 9 to 6 (Bugs knew Glen from Chicago) Bugs was amazing to watch. It may have been the best 160 bucks I ever lost. My question is do you think Bugs could have spotted Gary Spaeth 2 balls. I used to watch Gary run 9 balls warming up very often. If he had the backers Bugs had he would have been much more known.
 

thebighurt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
OK, Ok, Ok, you the Man! He WAS Washington Rags. Maybe I heard Philly somewhere too. You do remember Marvin, don't you. You were in L.A. for a while back then. To this day, I have never seen anyone with a more beautiful stroke than Marvin, and Eddie Kelly was second best there. What player today is as graceful and artistic as Kelly. Marvin Henderson on a pool table was a work of art and I'm glad I got a glimpse of that pure beauty. When I see it again I will tell you.

Everyone can talk all they want about how great the players are today, but those guys from the 60's and 70's weren't too shabby either. No one talks anymore about who the best All Around player is. That used to be a hot topic of conversation 30 years ago, because all the good players played all games. Not just 9-Ball or One Pocket.

Freddie you may agree that if all the players gambled at One Pocket, 9 Ball and 14.1, Kelly was the favorite. He played all games top speed. Remember, he came back after over ten years off and won Grady's big One Pocket shindig in Reno in 1991. And all the best players were there.

You and I know that high speed pool is as much about heart and character, as it is about stroke and ball pocketing ability. Who can pull the trigger when all the cash is on the line. There is a reason these guys are legends.
Ronnie, Kelly, Red, Richie, Denny. They were poolplayers! As good as any that ever lived, Filipino, German or otherwise.

And I'll go to my grave believing that.

There is a reason nobody talks about who the best all around player is anymore is because unless you are a complete moron it is obvious that efren is not only the best all around player today but also the best ever. None of them guys you mentioned at their best would want play Efren at HIS best in an all around of 9 ball, 8 ball, 1 pocket, straight pool, 15 ball rotation, 3 cushion billiards and banks. It sounds like you would bet your house on these older players against efren, if it was possible to do these matchups we would not be having this discussion because I have not seen too many homeless people with a computer!
 

watchez

What time is it?
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
On a personal level, I have much more respect for Efren. But that is not the purpose of this post, is it.

Efren gives Ronnie 12-3 and the break in respect.


On talking about spotting in banks, a good player once told me that spotting someone 9-7 in banks is equivalent to giving someone 10-6 in one pocket. Jay and Freddie, do you agree with this statement? (Bugs is the greatest banker I ever saw, Tony Fargo a close second.)
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
huckster said:
Jay,
I know Bugs was a monster I got to see him well past his prime around (90 or 91) but I will never forget he walked into the room with about five guys and they talked started "that is Chicago Bugs Rucker" he ended up playing five hundred a game one pocket with a pretty strong player and after four games winner the local quit. I had the honor of going in with four other guys backing Glen Knowles against Bugs playing banks. The game was 9 to 6 (Bugs knew Glen from Chicago) Bugs was amazing to watch. It may have been the best 160 bucks I ever lost. My question is do you think Bugs could have spotted Gary Spaeth 2 balls. I used to watch Gary run 9 balls warming up very often. If he had the backers Bugs had he would have been much more known.

Gary was the best of the new breed. Definitely. I'm not sure Bugs could have given him that much weight. Gary was a ball above Shannon, John B. and Cliff. I would match them up at 8-7. Still a tough, tough game for Gary. Bugs would run those eights and nines in games, not in practice. Another amazing thing about Bugs is he would walk in a new poolroom, sit around until a game was made and get up and play. He didn't care an iota about practicing on the table or warming up or anything else.

I remember Glen Knowles (is he still alive). A better played from that neck of the woods was Chuck Morgan. Did you know him?
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
thebighurt said:
There is a reason nobody talks about who the best all around player is anymore is because unless you are a complete moron it is obvious that efren is not only the best all around player today but also the best ever. None of them guys you mentioned at their best would want play Efren at HIS best in an all around of 9 ball, 8 ball, 1 pocket, straight pool, 15 ball rotation, 3 cushion billiards and banks. It sounds like you would bet your house on these older players against efren, if it was possible to do these matchups we would not be having this discussion because I have not seen too many homeless people with a computer!

Thanks for the compliment. Much appreciated. Usually the best All Around player was based on ability at 9-Ball, One Pocket and 14.1. Using those three games only, I would make it a toss up between Efren and Eddie Kelly. Eddie Kelly, circa 1970, didn't have to lose to Efren, circa 2000, at any one of those three disciplines. I would make Kelly a slight underdog at One Pocket, even at 9-Ball and a favorite at 14.1.

And then again, he might just torture Effie. Just kidding, big guy.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
watchez said:
Efren gives Ronnie 12-3 and the break in respect.


On talking about spotting in banks, a good player once told me that spotting someone 9-7 in banks is equivalent to giving someone 10-6 in one pocket. Jay and Freddie, do you agree with this statement? (Bugs is the greatest banker I ever saw, Tony Fargo a close second.)

Yes, for most players I would agree with your assessment. That does not hold true for Bugs or Taylor. The next best banker I ever saw was Cannonball (J.C. Chapman). He was only a hair under these two. They may not have been able to spot him anything (at most 9-8). Cannonball was known to go to major 14.1 events in the 50's and 60's (blacks couldn't play) and challenge all present to gamble. And he would play 9-Ball, 14.1 or whatever they wanted.
 

freddy the beard

Freddy Bentivegna
Silver Member
Bugs and Buddy

jay helfert said:
And by the way, there is NO one today who banks like Bugs or Taylor. Even the wonderful Jason Miller would be eaten alive by these two. The Bugs of 1975 to 1985 could spot any past winner of the Banks at Derby City two balls, in my opinion (Full Rack Banks). After he hit you with eight and out six or seven times, you would be looking for the door. I don't care who you are.

I was in Johnston City in either 70,71 or 72, I forgot exactly, when I watched Bugs give Buddy Hall 10 to 8 playing banks. Buddy missed nothing, played great safeties, came off the end rail, and still lost every game! Even though I knew Bugs well, I was still astonished by how easily Bugs won. How did he do it? What was the difference, since Buddy played well too? I watched closely. Bugs banked all the way out when he got a shot! If he needed four, he got all four, three, five, etc. He never stopped at the one-hole. He would look for that one key, game-winning shot, bring it, and go out. I watched him bust Piggy Bank in my joint, North Shore Billiards, giving him one hit and the pick. (Piggy could break the balls, and pick one off the table, put it in his rack and keep shooting.) Piggy was banking 4's, 5's and even one seven and out and still couldnt win.

the Beard
 

freddy the beard

Freddy Bentivegna
Silver Member
Who Was Better? Then, Or Now?:

Quote Jay:
Freddy, you and I know that high speed pool is as much about heart and character, as it is about stroke and ball pocketing ability. Who can pull the trigger when all the cash is on the line. There is a reason these guys are legends.
Ronnie, Kelly, Red, Richie, Denny. They were poolplayers! As good as any that ever lived, Filipino, German or otherwise.
And I'll go to my grave believing that.


Jay, here is an excerpt from my upcoming book, The GosPool According To The Beard, and my take on "Who was better.":

Players of my era would destroy players of today. Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Artie Bodendorfer, Boston Shorty, Eddie Taylor, Cincinnati Clem Metz, etc., were vicious killers who would shark*, cheat, psyche, and even tush-hog* their opponents in order to win. Now consider this. Players of the 30s and 40s would probably destroy the players of my era! Marcel Camp, Gene Skinner, The Eufala Kid, John "Rags" Fitzpatrick, Johnny "Irish" Lineen, New York Fats, Hubert Cokes, Alton "Baby-Face" Whitlow, Tommy the Greek, James Evans, Isadore"Pony" Rosen, et al., played even harder than the Ronnie Allen-era boys. The economic conditions necessary to develop players of that determination and ferocity are no longer present. Depression-era players were hungry wolves, whose level of concentration was nail-bending. Economics of the 50s, 60s and early 70s, while they didn't rival the Depression years, were nonetheless hard times. When I was coming up, a good bite* from a fellow pool player was a buck ($1) or a deuce ($2). We missed many meals and some nights had to carry the banner*, and wound up in the bus station or an all-night movie. City buses were the standard mode of transportation. Only a few players had cars. If you had as much as three barrels* to play someone with, you were a fortunate man. We didn't care if we had a "good" game or not. Who should beat who, was not a major concern. Arbitrary skill handicapping went out the window. Our real concern was that our opponent had money that he was willing to lose. A really "good" game was when you had ten dollars and your opponent had a hundred.

the Beard
 
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thebighurt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
freddy the beard said:
Quote Jay:
Freddy, you and I know that high speed pool is as much about heart and character, as it is about stroke and ball pocketing ability. Who can pull the trigger when all the cash is on the line. There is a reason these guys are legends.
Ronnie, Kelly, Red, Richie, Denny. They were poolplayers! As good as any that ever lived, Filipino, German or otherwise.
And I'll go to my grave believing that.


Jay, here is an excerpt from my upcoming book, The GosPool According To The Beard, and my take on "Who was better.":

Players of my era would destroy players of today. Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Artie Bodendorfer, Boston Shorty, Eddie Taylor, Cincinnati Clem Metz, etc., were vicious killers who would shark*, cheat, psyche, and even tush-hog* their opponents in order to win. Now consider this. Players of the 30s and 40s would probably destroy the players of my era! Marcel Camp, Gene Skinner, The Eufala Kid, John "Rags" Fitzpatrick, Johnny "Irish" Lineen, New York Fats, Hubert Cokes, Alton "Baby-Face" Whitlow, Tommy the Greek, James Evans, Isadore"Pony" Rosen, et al., played even harder than the Ronnie Allen-era boys. The economic conditions necessary to develop players of that determination and ferocity are no longer present. Depression-era players were hungry wolves, whose level of concentration was nail-bending. Economics of the 50s, 60s and early 70s, while they didn't rival the Depression years, were nonetheless hard times. When I was coming up, a good bite* from a fellow pool player was a buck ($1) or a deuce ($2). We missed many meals and some nights had to carry the banner*, and wound up in the bus station or an all-night movie. City buses were the standard mode of transportation. Only a few players had cars. If you had as much as three barrels* to play someone with, you were a fortunate man. We didn't care if we had a "good" game or not. Who should beat who, was not a major concern. Arbitrary skill handicapping went out the window. Our real concern was that our opponent had money that he was willing to lose. A really "good" game was when you had ten dollars and your opponent had a hundred.

the Beard

After asking the following players.. Johnny Ervolino, Buddy Hall, Danny Diliberto, Bob Ogburn, Allen Hopkins etc... it is concluded thay Efren would of ROBBED Ronnie Allen, Efren would of had Ronnie out on the street turning tricks for him.. I had tried to be polite and say that efren had a slight edge after asking everybody but their real opinion was that Efren would bend Ronnie over the table and nail him dead in the keester. Ronnies ego would have kept him busted screwing around with Efren..lol

Now what is the next topic for you older guys.. Bob Cousy was a better basketball player than Michael Jordan
 

thebighurt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
freddy the beard said:
Quote Jay:
Freddy, you and I know that high speed pool is as much about heart and character, as it is about stroke and ball pocketing ability. Who can pull the trigger when all the cash is on the line. There is a reason these guys are legends.
Ronnie, Kelly, Red, Richie, Denny. They were poolplayers! As good as any that ever lived, Filipino, German or otherwise.
And I'll go to my grave believing that.


Jay, here is an excerpt from my upcoming book, The GosPool According To The Beard, and my take on "Who was better.":

Players of my era would destroy players of today. Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Artie Bodendorfer, Boston Shorty, Eddie Taylor, Cincinnati Clem Metz, etc., were vicious killers who would shark*, cheat, psyche, and even tush-hog* their opponents in order to win. Now consider this. Players of the 30s and 40s would probably destroy the players of my era! Marcel Camp, Gene Skinner, The Eufala Kid, John "Rags" Fitzpatrick, Johnny "Irish" Lineen, New York Fats, Hubert Cokes, Alton "Baby-Face" Whitlow, Tommy the Greek, James Evans, Isadore"Pony" Rosen, et al., played even harder than the Ronnie Allen-era boys. The economic conditions necessary to develop players of that determination and ferocity are no longer present. Depression-era players were hungry wolves, whose level of concentration was nail-bending. Economics of the 50s, 60s and early 70s, while they didn't rival the Depression years, were nonetheless hard times. When I was coming up, a good bite* from a fellow pool player was a buck ($1) or a deuce ($2). We missed many meals and some nights had to carry the banner*, and wound up in the bus station or an all-night movie. City buses were the standard mode of transportation. Only a few players had cars. If you had as much as three barrels* to play someone with, you were a fortunate man. We didn't care if we had a "good" game or not. Who should beat who, was not a major concern. Arbitrary skill handicapping went out the window. Our real concern was that our opponent had money that he was willing to lose. A really "good" game was when you had ten dollars and your opponent had a hundred.

the Beard

were vicious killers who would shark*, cheat, psyche, and even tush-hog I have to agree with you the players of yesteryear were definitely bigger scum bags than the players today and that is saying something... LOL
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Jay, were you at Hard Times when Grady and Efren hooked-up for that big one?
Danny Kuykendahl said Efren missed two balls all match. He said that was the best pool he's ever seen and Danny cannot be convince Ronnie can even come close to beating Efren.
Anyway, if you were there, let us know.
The video of the match exists btw. Taped by you know who.
 

Williebetmore

Member, .25% Club
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
Thanks for the compliment. Much appreciated. Usually the best All Around player was based on ability at 9-Ball, One Pocket and 14.1. Using those three games only, I would make it a toss up between Efren and Eddie Kelly. Eddie Kelly, circa 1970, didn't have to lose to Efren, circa 2000, at any one of those three disciplines. I would make Kelly a slight underdog at One Pocket, even at 9-Ball and a favorite at 14.1.

And then again, he might just torture Effie. Just kidding, big guy.

JH,
Very interesting observation. I've often discussed my father and the bunch of degenerate pool gamblers he hung around with (they had all hung out with Willie Mosconi during his time living in KC). Of course they all thought Mosconi was the greatest; but at the time (1960's) they thought that the greatest active player was Eddie Kelly (over Lassiter and Worst).

It was a very great experience for me to get to actually meet "Champagne Eddie" at DCC 2 years ago. He seemed quite surprised that I knew of him, and of his reputation in the 60's. I sweated a couple of his matches and watched him torture a couple of younger players at 9-ball. He said his game was not anywhere near where it could be, and he apologized for not having beat the kids more convincingly. He must have been great.
 

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Where does Nick Varner range in the lineup of "greatest" ALL-AROUND players? Tricky Nicky, a.k.a. The little Grinder, a.k.a. The Kentucky Colonel HAS to be near the top!

Any stories of Varner's gambling exploits? I know tournament wise he has won in every arena of American Pocket Billiards (excluding three cushion, and snooker). He plays world class 9 Ball, Straight Pool, One Pocket, and Banks...and has the titles to show for it.

I was impressed when Jerry McWorter during an Accu-stats match asked Efren what his best game was, he said "3-Cushion". McWorter was utterly shocked by this statement. He also went on to tell a story that he saw Efren gambling Ronnie Allen at one-pocket (maybe early 90's or late 80's) and just torturing him. Does this ring a bell to anyone?
 
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