Secrets!

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Back to the cut shot we were talking about. I have an experiment for you. Put up the most extreme cut shot you can imagine, one that looks like it won't go. Then try hitting it firm with high English and firm with low English. See which way you can cut the ball the thinnest. Let me know what you discover. ;)

I don't know why, and perhaps I'm in the minority, but I've always found that I can cut the object ball thinner with draw than with follow. Perhaps the reason why (in my case) is that the thinnest cuts always seem to be into the side pocket, and I'm trying to swing the cue ball away from the corner pocket scratch. (I have no fear of those, and in fact those shots feel like "an old friend" to me.) Plus, I can always get an accurate "center axis" hit on the cue ball, because I'm aiming at the point where the cue ball is touching the cloth (i.e. having a "'known center' to aim at").

-Sean
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Back to the cut shot we were talking about. I have an experiment for you. Put up the most extreme cut shot you can imagine, one that looks like it won't go. Then try hitting it firm with high English and firm with low English. See which way you can cut the ball the thinnest. Let me know what you discover. ;)

I think that sometimes you may be able to cut the object ball thinner if you hit the cue ball firm, with low English. The cue ball can "hop" using a firm stroke and low English but can also easily swerve, especially at long distances. I just don't like having to deal with the cue ball hopping or swerving, especially on shots that require extreme cutting but that may just be me. I'm sure you can imagine the cue ball hopping as it moves toward the object ball and if it is in the air just before it gets to the contact point, you can imagine that it will hit on just the other side of the contact point, thereby cutting the object ball too much. Now if the hop occurs before it reaches the contact point, you may not be cutting the cue ball as much as you would like. The precision of using high (and not hopping or swerving) outweighs any benefits that can be derived from using "low".:cool:

All that being said, this is a perfect example of how different people can come to different conclusions about shooting shots. My Filipino buddy almost always uses low INSIDE for cut shots and he is a razor cutting kind of guy. :cool: I like to cut balls with PRECISION and I seem to get more precision from using high. This doesn't mean that someone can't cut balls with some precision, using low or low inside. You can probably get used to using low outside to cut balls as well. :D
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
trade-offs

Back to the cut shot we were talking about. I have an experiment for you. Put up the most extreme cut shot you can imagine, one that looks like it won't go. Then try hitting it firm with high English and firm with low English. See which way you can cut the ball the thinnest. Let me know what you discover. ;)

Jay,

I agree with you sometimes, I think! :thumbup:

If the cue ball and the object ball are fairly close together where I'm more interested in the thinnest possible cut than the greatest accuracy(close enough together that I will get the accuracy, still the most important thing) then I will skid the cue ball into the object ball with a just below center hit. Mechanical theory indicates that two objects sliding against each other generate more friction than two objects rolling against each other. For razor thin cuts I'm looking for all the friction I can get, but not at the expense of missing the perfect contact point. Longer distances between cue and object ball I roll the cue ball for accuracy no matter how thin they are. Playing one pocket I'm content to hang a ball in my pocket most of the time anyway, any other game there is usually a better shot than a cut that can only be made with a sliding cue ball.

Hu
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
magic in the air!

I've been hearing about the infamous "feel shot" for years. I'd love to read the definition of one.

It is described well in other posts but when shooting without thought there is magic in the air!

I have been disappointed in my level of play since returning to pool but have still had people quit me midset when it was obvious that I was free stroking without doing any thinking. The balls fall and the cue ball goes where it is supposed to, no planning or calculations between shots involved. There isn't the slightest doubt that either one will happen and the fact that this old varmint has went from creaking and groaning hobbling around the table to moving around it like a cat isn't lost on the other player either. The entire run is one continuous action without pause or thought. It takes forty years off my age for a minute or two. :smile: :smile: :smile:

Hu
 

Mitchxout

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is described well in other posts but when shooting without thought there is magic in the air!

Guys just learning used to ask me questions all the time. That was until I started telling them the truth-don't aim. They don't bother me so much anymore.

They also like to ask me what english I used on a certain shot and when I say centerball the bs flags go off again.

You can't tell some people anything because they refuse to believe it. Besides, who's going to buy a video that says don't aim and use centerball to go 3 rails around the table? :p
 

Run the Century

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jay and Joey A

Back to the cut shot we were talking about. I have an experiment for you. Put up the most extreme cut shot you can imagine, one that looks like it won't go. Then try hitting it firm with high English and firm with low English. See which way you can cut the ball the thinnest. Let me know what you discover. ;)

I am guessing the success you are having with these "super" thin cuts (with low and high english) is a result on the cue ball being slightly in the air (you can actually back cut a ball more than 90 degrees if the cue ball is airborne). Try hitting these cuts at a slower speed and see if you have the same success.
 

houmatroy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree with all what you said....BUT

Somebody touched on it earlier when they said the secret was "Don't Aim." They attributed this important piece of information to the esteemed Hal Mix, one of the greatest pool coaches of all time! He took a pretty good player in Nick Varner and made him into a world beater! Nick had trouble winning tournaments before he met Hal. When he somehow got Hal to mentor him, he became a champion, winning multiple tournaments year after year. And Nick was winning during the prime of Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Steve Mizerak, Efren Reyes, Jose Parica and Earl Strickland. So how good did he play?

I'd like to enlarge on what Mr. Mix had to say. At the highest level of pool, there is no more aiming! It all becomes instinctive, where our brain goes into auto-pilot, and makes instantaneous calculations on how to hit each shot. I'm rolling now, so pay attention. This is a little preview of what you're going to get in my next book. Pool becomes a game of Touch and Feel! It's no longer about "one tip left" or a "half a tip high." There is no "high" or "Low", no "Left" or "Right." What there is now, is an instant brain-calculated estimate of exactly how to hit the shot. Where to strike the cue ball, where and how you want it to hit the object ball and at the exact right speed to make the shot and cause the cue ball to go where you need it for the next shot. You can't measure this point of aim in degrees left or right, high or low. It is a more precise equation then that. It's an infinite calculation, the most accurate one you'll ever make. Pool becomes wholly an "instinctive" act, where the thought processes are more free flowing. There are no obstacles to how our brain is operating at moments like this. That's when we're operating at full throttle! In pool we call this moment of nirvana, "being in dead stroke." That's as good a name as any, but it doesn't do justice to what is happening with our mind and body. A pool player in dead stroke is using his faculties at their maximum efficiency. This is about as good as it gets in life! And that's why they play pool. It ain't just about the money! HONEY!! :blush:

You could have typed 2 lil words & would have said same thing....Memory muscle...:D
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
I've been hearing about the infamous "feel shot" for years. I'd love to read the definition of one.
I think 'feel' is a mixture of intuition and empirical knowledge, stuff that
you may not be able to prove other than by 'doing'.
I call it your 'billiard brain'.
You don't have to explain why spinning is different going from heavy cloth
to fast cloth, if you're over-cutting, just aim thicker.You can figure out
the reasons later.

I was playing pretty good one day and giving up a lot of weight, so I was
doing most of the shooting.
So, I was slightly jacked near the side pocket and had to make a ball in the corner and force it to the rail with a dead-center hit and back to the middle of the table.
I lowered my head to the cue just to see where I was aiming.
It looked like the object ball was going to hit 3 inches up the side rail.
I brought my head back up, pulled the trigger and the ball went in,
center pocket.
I thought about that for a week and realized that I aimed thick 'cause
an air-borne ball over-cuts.

..to me, feel is the ability to use knowledge you may not be able to
write an essay on.

If we had to explain how oxygen goes from our lungs to our blood
stream and into our brain cells before we take our next breath, most
of us would have trouble surviving.
 

Mitchxout

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When the room gets full, the humidity goes up and balls start undercutting. How much more? Well, there's no practical way to know.

The subconscious will automatically process and adjust if you allow it to happen.
 

Kurida

Registered
The secret is there is no secret!.....from the movie Kung fu panda 1. If everybody plays pool well due to a working secret formula then with or without money involved, pool wouldn't be much fun. It is like making everybody look exactly the same. I say, use whatever talent or tool you have as long as it is legal and ethical. Stop thinking that a secret aiming system or a secret playing technique or style is known by pros but they are purposely hiding it from everybody else. For one, these pros do not share their knowledge with each other. There is no connivance among pros. In fact they probably even don't like each other as much as we or they think. Being a PRO means nothing more than a person who realized he can make money out of pool, whether or not he believes he is good or is really good. Most of them are just BUMS!
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
The secret is there is no secret!.....from the movie Kung fu panda 1. If everybody plays pool well due to a working secret formula then with or without money involved, pool wouldn't be much fun. It is like making everybody look exactly the same. I say, use whatever talent or tool you have as long as it is legal and ethical. Stop thinking that a secret aiming system or a secret playing technique or style is known by pros but they are purposely hiding it from everybody else. For one, these pros do not share their knowledge with each other. There is no connivance among pros. In fact they probably even don't like each other as much as we or they think. Being a PRO means nothing more than a person who realized he can make money out of pool, whether or not he believes he is good or is really good. Most of them are just BUMS!

I've always believed that there were and are secrets in pool. Secrets are the pieces of information that are not easily shared or freely shared.

When a young up and coming player goes on to the road with an older, more successful and better seasoned player, he acquires information that has been unavailable to him in the past. Those are "secrets".

There are plenty of "secrets" in pool. Sometimes the "secrets" can be found in the many books and videos on the instruction of pool. Other times, the "secrets" are shared by players with their favorite peeps. They may appear in the form of particular shots that few people know or simply a different way to shoot a particular shot. Those are "SECRETS".

I don't consider pool players bums but you are right that there is no conspiracy out there amongst professional pool players to deprive you of the "Secrets". It doesn't hurt to have someone who has already been down that road to share those intimate morsels of information that I call "SECRETS:.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
the greatest secrets of all

These secrets are like so many "secrets" right out in plain sight. Things everyone "knows" are true but few really believe. The last time I was talking to a pro pool player he confirmed that this is indeed truth and that he takes full advantage of most people's weakness.

Quite simply, almost everyone finds a way to play to their expectations. When they play against a pro or a legend they don't expect to win so if they are winning they find a way to lose. Not deliberately or consciously but people rarely exceed their own expectations.

This has given me a bit of a free ride from the very first time I competed in group competitions. Not because I was a great competitor but because I was competing in open competitions with great competitors and in a way I rode on their coat tails.

The vast majority of competitors go to an event and see two or three top competitors and in their hearts are competing for third or fourth place. The very best they hope to do is finish behind the big dogs. They are probably right that they will finish behind the big dogs, but they don't have a decent shot at third or fourth either. The reason is simple, they have lowered their expectations. Everybody that is still striving for first place has an edge on them. The people legitimately fighting for first may well sneak by one or two of the big dogs or the elite may knock each other out. However the people that see themselves as second tier players will still find a way to be second tier players.

Another great secret, anybody can lose on a given day to just a solid journeyman competitor. Sure we all know that in our heads but how many know it in their gut and heart when we see a hall of famer or future hall of famer across the table?

The greatest secret to winning in any form of competition is to try to win. If you pour everything you have into getting to first place, not beating one particular person and not accepting there are some people there that you can't beat, you will score some firsts. Winners find ways to win, also rans find ways to not win. I have competed with thousands of people over the last forty years and change and I know most aren't competing for first place in their own hearts and minds. It gives those that are a huge edge, even those of us just hanging on the top players' coat tails.

The funny thing about writing this is I haven't given away a thing. The one in dozens that really knew this in their gut already still believe it and the rest of the readers will think they just wasted five minutes of their lives reading drivel or they will agree in their heads but won't believe where and when it counts. I have known dozens of people that have all the tools except real expectations of winning who have never won an event of any size, some not even a small event. Despite all their other tools I don't concern myself with them when I see them at a competition. If nothing else happens they are going to find a way to beat themselves.

Hu
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Back to the cut shot we were talking about. I have an experiment for you. Put up the most extreme cut shot you can imagine, one that looks like it won't go. Then try hitting it firm with high English and firm with low English. See which way you can cut the ball the thinnest. Let me know what you discover. ;)


Jay, I believe that this is one of those secrets that may be idiosyncratic to each player. IOW, what works good for one player may not for another, so you end up with some players who get good results one way and some the udder.

Me, I've always thought, perhaps mistakenly, that the best way to get friction on an extreme cut is to use a sliding cue ball, and I do seem to get my bestest results with a slightly below center hit. But then that's just me.

Lou Figueroa
 

whitewolf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Back to the cut shot we were talking about. I have an experiment for you. Put up the most extreme cut shot you can imagine, one that looks like it won't go. Then try hitting it firm with high English and firm with low English. See which way you can cut the ball the thinnest. Let me know what you discover. ;)

More importantly, IMHO, is to shorten your bridge. I agree with your advice though, and thanks for the tip.
 

JarnoV

JarnoV
Silver Member
I must say I'm glad that this topic was set up as it contains a lot of great tips and insights. Thanks JoeyA! :)
 

aces805

non iphone user
Thank goodness that knowledge and execution are two entirely different things. In my estimation, the reason I win more than I lose is due to superior execution. It is one thing to "know secrets", yet another to successfully apply and execute these secrets.

I'm very glad that application trumps knowledge a majority of the time.
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
I must say I'm glad that this topic was set up as it contains a lot of great tips and insights. Thanks JoeyA! :)

You're welcome JarnoV. As Hu mentioned, many will read the "SECRETS" and say that those aren't secrets o "I knew that" and continue doing what they have always been doing.

It's no big deal if someone doesn't get it but for those that do, it makes up for everything else.

Sailor told Williebetmore about the sacrifices that a person must make to become a winning professional pool player and that most would never be willing to make those sacrifices. I believe Sailor is right.

But I agree that many great tips and insights have been offered. Hopefully others will give up their "Secrets".
 

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you're looking for a good systems check, try this. It was published as far back as the early 1900's by Maurice Daly and also by Mosconi in one of his books. I've seen countless pros use it in one form or another, even Efren.

Daly and Mosconi said when approaching the shot line, stand square to the shot with the cue stick at your side, pointing at the shot. Then turn into the shot. I do a variation of this to keep my dominant eye dominant. I'm right handed and keep my body to the left of the shot. This allows my dominant right eye to get the best view.

My variation is to lay the stick on the shot line as I bend over, half way down on the shot. I don't grab the cue and set my bridge hand until I've had a good look at the shot. Your eyes will naturally put you on the correct line. You'll feel uncomfortable if you're not lined up correctly as you get down on the shot.

If you miss the shot, reset and see where you're lining up wrong. This basic setup will show you very simply if you're sighting the shot correctly and eliminate steering the cue ball possibly caused by an improper PSR.

If you can't get your stick on the correct shot line as you lay it on the table, you've discovered a major flaw in your game. It's a good systems check to see if you're lining up correctly. It sounds so simple it can't possibly work, but I use it when I dog a shot or two to remind myself where I need to be. I call it my hundred year old "secret". ;)

Best,
Mike
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thank goodness that knowledge and execution are two entirely different things. In my estimation, the reason I win more than I lose is due to superior execution. It is one thing to "know secrets", yet another to successfully apply and execute these secrets.

I'm very glad that application trumps knowledge a majority of the time.

Jim Rempe said the same thing years ago, when discussing the best way to shoot a certain shot. His words, "It's not shot selection, it's shot execution that's important!" There have been many players down through the years who would take some funny routes to get position for the next shot. But they kept making it work for them so who is to say if it was right or wrong.
 

West Point 1987

On the Hill, Out of Gas
Silver Member
If you're looking for a good systems check, try this. It was published as far back as the early 1900's by Maurice Daly and also by Mosconi in one of his books. I've seen countless pros use it in one form or another, even Efren.

Daly and Mosconi said when approaching the shot line, stand square to the shot with the cue stick at your side, pointing at the shot. Then turn into the shot. I do a variation of this to keep my dominant eye dominant. I'm right handed and keep my body to the left of the shot. This allows my dominant right eye to get the best view.

My variation is to lay the stick on the shot line as I bend over, half way down on the shot. I don't grab the cue and set my bridge hand until I've had a good look at the shot. Your eyes will naturally put you on the correct line. You'll feel uncomfortable if you're not lined up correctly as you get down on the shot.

If you miss the shot, reset and see where you're lining up wrong. This basic setup will show you very simply if you're sighting the shot correctly and eliminate steering the cue ball possibly caused by an improper PSR.

If you can't get your stick on the correct shot line as you lay it on the table, you've discovered a major flaw in your game. It's a good systems check to see if you're lining up correctly. It sounds so simple it can't possibly work, but I use it when I dog a shot or two to remind myself where I need to be. I call it my hundred year old "secret". ;)

Best,
Mike


I started doing this about a year ago...probably the single biggest thing I've done to improve my game in almost 30 years! I was amazed at how jacked up my stance was until I started doing this. I was leaning and twisting all over the place, all unbalanced. Didn't think I was set up wrong until I tried this. I heard about this simple trick of locking my right hand into my hip, lining up the cue with the shot and then stepping down into my stance. Everything instantly clicked and my consistency went through the roof! Add to that the Pinoy trick of initially aiming at the base of the ball (to verify you're lined up absolutely on the center vertical line--AND I can see the line between my cueball and object ball contact points for aim better) and I'm shooting the best pool I've shot in over 20 years!

Jay Helfert and others have already addressed staying calm and having the winning attitude--that's my biggest problem and my next challenge. I tried to work on that in the last two tournaments I played in, and went farther than I have in years...still need work there, though! :thumbup:
 
Top