when is it time to accept you just dont have it

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bbb

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michael4 said:
is the fix that you now just aim 3-5mm to the left of where you really want to hit the CB?
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no that is not it
i have tried that and robin and i talked about it
the problem i found with that fix was i was aimig /lining up at one spot and hitting another
that could have been the answer if all else failed
but me /we wanted to try and fix the cause rather than put a bandaid on a faulty stroke
 
N

Neil

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bbb said:
learning a new feel and visualization of a new stroke path
since what i thought/felt was straight was not
thats the best i can do bob
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Well, I am glad you found the problem and fixed it. But, I am sitting here scratching my head wondering why you never took any of the advice on here from multiple posters on how to find out if you have the problem and how to fix it in just a few minutes? There have been many posts about vision center on here, and the importance of it. On how to see a straight line as straight.
 
Bobkitty

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I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Neil said:
Well, I am glad you found the problem and fixed it. But, I am sitting here scratching my head wondering why you never took any of the advice on here from multiple posters on how to find out if you have the problem and how to fix it in just a few minutes? There have been many posts about vision center on here, and the importance of it. On how to see a straight line as straight.
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Sometimes a problem can't be fixed by one's self or by reading about it on some forum. The fix might entail a video camera and someone running it that knows the correct view. If the one doing the stroke can be made to feel the problem and then feel the solution, the problem can be addressed and fixed with hard work over time. It takes a great teacher to enable all of that to happen. I'm sure Larry realizes he's got a lot of work to do to make the new stroke "his".
I wish we could come out and discuss Robin's kicking systems and some of the other things that aren't in any books (that I know of). But, he's asked us not to as it's going to come out in his book when he is done with teaching. All I can say is it's so simple and genius. Right now, it's all proprietary and belongs to Robin Dreyer. If anyone wants it, they can go see him.
 
B

bbb

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Neil said:
Well, I am glad you found the problem and fixed it. But, I am sitting here scratching my head wondering why you never took any of the advice on here from multiple posters on how to find out if you have the problem and how to fix it in just a few minutes? There have been many posts about vision center on here, and the importance of it. On how to see a straight line as straight.
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neil
it wasnt a vision problem as i had thought
robin figured that out and what the real problem was and helped me correct it
be happy for me
i do not want to go into more detail
 
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Dan White

Dan White

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bbb said:
neil
it wasnt a vision problem as i had thought
robin figured that out and what the real problem was and helped me correct it
be happy for me
i do not want to go into more detail
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Hmm. Right handed player putting right hand spin on cb. He turned your shoulders to be more in line with the shot line because you were setting up with the cue angled too much to the left. So when you made the stroke, you had to swoop to the right to pocket the ball.

What'd I win? :D
 
gregcantrall

gregcantrall

Center Ball
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Dan White said:
Hmm. Right handed player putting right hand spin on cb. He turned your shoulders to be more in line with the shot line because you were setting up with the cue angled too much to the left. So when you made the stroke, you had to swoop to the right to pocket the ball.

What'd I win? :D
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I was putting inadvertent right on my right handed shots and when I opened my stance to be more like the snooker stance that problem went waw===== covfefe. Darned tyoi I meant it went away.:)
 
B

bbb

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Dan White said:
Hmm. Right handed player putting right hand spin on cb. He turned your shoulders to be more in line with the shot line because you were setting up with the cue angled too much to the left. So when you made the stroke, you had to swoop to the right to pocket the ball.

What'd I win? :D
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a free lesson with stan shuffett....:grin:
 
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BigAlTheTiger

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sixpack said:
To improve from here you have to upgrade your mind.

Pool players see themselves playing at a certain level and they work like heck to get there, then once they do they work like heck to stay there.

That's why guys can practice 1-2 hours a day and never improve. It isn't their fundamentals holding them back - although they might need work - it's that they are already playing at their expected level.

To change you have to really spend some time thinking about what your goal is with pool. For me my first one was that I wanted to be able to beat anybody at most bars. If I never upgraded that I would be an APA 4 still.

Then I got into playing tournaments and wanted to get 'in the money'. Then I realized I was a perennial bridesmaid getting 2nd or 3rd a lot but not really breaking through until I decided that I deserved to win any bar tournament I entered and went on a tear winning 13 bar tournaments in a two week period. Including three in a 27 - hour timeframe.

The point is, you'll get your fundamentals in line with where your head is, not the other way around.

Figure out what your next goal is. Look at all the hard work you've put in and understand that you deserve to be a better player. You expect it. You demand it.
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How many hours/day or week are you shooting pool?
 
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BigAlTheTiger

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Wald0 said:
Just some thoughts...

I grew up playing tennis first before pool, I had a coach from China that made it to the top 100 on the tour. She told me stories about the training back in her home country that really hit home and I will remember forever.

They were chosen to be tennis players and had to put an obscene amount of practice hours on the court. She told me they often hoped it rained just so they didn't have to play, thats how tired they got.

I believe you have to put in the hard hours. Doesn't matter if you feel tired or don't want to play today "oh I played so much yesterday im tired"

NO, get your a** back on the table and put the hours in until you're satisfied with improving on something that same session! Feel burned out? Doesnt matter, you keep going and play tired until broken but improved
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How many hours are you playing per day or week?
 
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bobprobst

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This is also what I tell my league friends.

We're not professionals and our performnace is going to deviate from our "average" by quite a bit every time we play. Some times we'll run 2-3 balls more than average and sometimes 2-3 balls less.

With 9 balls on the table, as good amateurs, we might average a 7 ball run when everything breaks well. That's a good average for an amateur! But when we apply that Standard Deviation - sometimes it means a 4 ball run and stall and sometimes it means a run out!

What we're all dealing with as non-pros is a solid average but a wide Standard Deviation. So many of our streaks come down to a coin toss. Imagine each game as a series of coin tosses. Sometimes you'll get "3 heads in a row" above your 7 ball average and run out but the likely hood of that is 1 in 14. That feels pretty rare.

On the flipside though (pun!) your likelihood of only running 4 is similarly 1 in 14 but those failures hang in our hearts so much longer than than our successes since a positive minded person who runs out thinks "Naturally - I played well!" But the loss sticks with us because we played "Awful" when really all that happened was the natural variation in a series of coin tosses that deviated us from our average.

It really is about moving that average up and reducing your standard deviation.

That all helps me anyway
 
F

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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bobprobst said:
This is also what I tell my league friends.

We're not professionals and our performnace is going to deviate from our "average" by quite a bit every time we play. Some times we'll run 2-3 balls more than average and sometimes 2-3 balls less.

With 9 balls on the table, as good amateurs, we might average a 7 ball run when everything breaks well. That's a good average for an amateur! But when we apply that Standard Deviation - sometimes it means a 4 ball run and stall and sometimes it means a run out!

What we're all dealing with as non-pros is a solid average but a wide Standard Deviation. So many of our streaks come down to a coin toss. Imagine each game as a series of coin tosses. Sometimes you'll get "3 heads in a row" above your 7 ball average and run out but the likely hood of that is 1 in 14. That feels pretty rare.

On the flipside though (pun!) your likelihood of only running 4 is similarly 1 in 14 but those failures hang in our hearts so much longer than than our successes since a positive minded person who runs out thinks "Naturally - I played well!" But the loss sticks with us because we played "Awful" when really all that happened was the natural variation in a series of coin tosses that deviated us from our average.

It really is about moving that average up and reducing your standard deviation.

That all helps me anyway
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I get where you're coming from, but I think the human element should not be discounted because there are actual causes for these variations in skill in a player at any given time.

For example: If a player has a pattern of rushing to league after work without eating, it will affect his performance. Perhaps he may have enough fuel for the first match, but not the second. Or maybe he grabbed a doughnut and got a sugar rush and then crashed from the drop.

Or: How would a deadline fit into a probability calculation where the player spent the day in a stressful mode at work trying to meet a deadline, sapping his energy, and then coming to league night?

Or how about that player who was well rested and calm and happy and who had the league night of his life?

Some amateurs have more opportunities to be in the right frame of mind and body than others do.
 
BeiberLvr

BeiberLvr

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If you've been playing the game seriously for more than 5 years, and you don't have "it", Then you probably never will.

Sorry to be blunt, but it's the truth. Now that doesn't mean you should give up. Especially if you enjoy playing pool, and you certainly don't need to have "it" in order to derive enjoyment from this wonderful game.

It also doesn't mean that you'll stop improving. So to answer the original question...as soon as the game stops being fun.
 
BilliardsAbout

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A plateau in your game is rather a good time to take a lesson or series of lessons. It's not uncommon for a student to go up several levels after a quick adjustment of stance or aim, too!
 
BeiberLvr

BeiberLvr

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BilliardsAbout said:
A plateau in your game is rather a good time to take a lesson or series of lessons. It's not uncommon for a student to go up several levels after a quick adjustment of stance or aim, too!
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Sure, that can help.

But my point is that if a player doesn't have "it" after 5 years, then no amount of lessons is going to give him/her "it"

There's no such thing as the "pool gene". No one is born specifically to play this game, but there are a series of genes that favor games and sports that require spatial awareness, pattern recognition, and hand/eye coordination.
 
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FranCrimi

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BeiberLvr said:
Sure, that can help.

But my point is that if a player doesn't have "it" after 5 years, then no amount of lessons is going to give him/her "it"

There's no such thing as the "pool gene". No one is born specifically to play this game, but there are a series of genes that favor games and sports that require spatial awareness, pattern recognition, and hand/eye coordination.
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I'm sure there's some truth to what you say about genes, but I don't think it's accurate to categorize someone as genetically unfit if they don't improve to the level they want after 5 years. In fact, maybe the OP's got all the right genes and his problem lies elsewhere. You don't really know what his issues are.

There are many variables that can be changed and can influence improvement, such as attitude.

For example: A player, while practicing, misses the same shot 3 times in a row and then becomes negative and discouraged. He does that repeatedly without realizing that he has been programming his sub-conscious mind to trigger a negative reaction when that happens, and as a result, gives up too quickly.

But with a little introspection, that player can be more aware and uncover these sub-conscious triggers, and then can start to eliminate them and improve his overall attitude towards the learning process.

That's just one example of a whole list of variables that can be changed in order to improve performance. An instructor who knows how to recognize patterns like this, can really help a player who has been stuck, to significantly improve. I know because I've done it with clients, and it works.

Each person you help is a puzzle that needs to be figured out, and no two people have exactly the same issues.
 
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B

bbb

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FranCrimi said:
I'm sure there's some truth to what you say about genes, but I don't think it's accurate to categorize someone as genetically unfit if they don't improve to the level they want after 5 years. In fact, maybe the OP's got all the right genes and his problem lies elsewhere. You don't really know what his issues are.

There are many variables that can be changed and can influence improvement, such as attitude.

For example: A player, while practicing, misses the same shot 3 times in a row and then becomes negative and discouraged. He does that repeatedly without realizing that he has been programming his sub-conscious mind to trigger a negative reaction when that happens, and as a result, gives up too quickly.

But with a little introspection, that player can be more aware and uncover these sub-conscious triggers, and then can start to eliminate them and improve his overall attitude towards the learning process.

That's just one example of a whole list of variables that can be changed in order to improve performance. An instructor who knows how to recognize patterns like this, can really help a player who has been stuck, to significantly improve. I know because I've done it with clients, and it works.

Each person you help is a puzzle that needs to be figured out, and no two people have exactly the same issues.
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great post Fran
 
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