Goodbye APA, it's been fun...
- Thread starter KingCarom
- Start date
My Take On The APA
I'm playing in my third session. I am admittedly a novice player, having played seriously for about a year. I joined because I wanted to play alot of different players to improve my game. I will not sandbag or let up, my team captains (both Monday and Tuesday) know this. It is their responsibility to manage my handicap. Truthfully, I don't even think about handicaps when I'm playing, except to know what the race is.
Sandbagging does happen, and people will always look for a way to game the system. I got my ass handed to my by an SL3 last night 2 games in a row. I won the lag broke and came up dry, he runs 6 balls and leaves me jammed up. Second game I watch him drop 6 before I shoot, run my 7 leave myself a difficult shot on the 8 and miss. He pulls an outrageous banks shot out of his ass and leaves himself straight in on the 8. My teammate overheard his captain telling him to get his inning count up, and he refused stating if he let me get lose I would beat him...
About half way through my first session, I found out about the individual tourneys that the APA has. I went to a regional qualifier, and won it. This weekend I'll be playing in the regional in Alexandria VA. There are 21 guys in my skill bracket with 2 tickets to Vegas on the line. I think my odds are pretty good. The beauty is that it's just me, no handcap limit, no team to carry. This side of the APA will keep me active. You have to be an active APA member to go to Vegas. I may not get there with my team, but I can do it by myself which is now my goal.
I like the APA because it is a good night out. I get to play a lot of players who at this point are more skilled than me. I would rather play a tougher opponent, because it makes me a better player. APA is the only game in town for me too. I'm having fun with it and it will serve as the platform for me to get to Vegas as an individual competitor. I'll stay active in the league for that reason alone.
Blackcat has the right idea about the APA. Cheaters exist in every sport right up to the ranks of the pros. You can do it too, or you can have integrity, play to win and still enjoy it. If you try to pad your innings with me you'd better be way better than I am because will get lose and take a match that you'd win if you played me straight. I love winning those matches too...
McCue Banger McCue
I'm playing in my third session. I am admittedly a novice player, having played seriously for about a year. I joined because I wanted to play alot of different players to improve my game. I will not sandbag or let up, my team captains (both Monday and Tuesday) know this. It is their responsibility to manage my handicap. Truthfully, I don't even think about handicaps when I'm playing, except to know what the race is.
Sandbagging does happen, and people will always look for a way to game the system. I got my ass handed to my by an SL3 last night 2 games in a row. I won the lag broke and came up dry, he runs 6 balls and leaves me jammed up. Second game I watch him drop 6 before I shoot, run my 7 leave myself a difficult shot on the 8 and miss. He pulls an outrageous banks shot out of his ass and leaves himself straight in on the 8. My teammate overheard his captain telling him to get his inning count up, and he refused stating if he let me get lose I would beat him...
About half way through my first session, I found out about the individual tourneys that the APA has. I went to a regional qualifier, and won it. This weekend I'll be playing in the regional in Alexandria VA. There are 21 guys in my skill bracket with 2 tickets to Vegas on the line. I think my odds are pretty good. The beauty is that it's just me, no handcap limit, no team to carry. This side of the APA will keep me active. You have to be an active APA member to go to Vegas. I may not get there with my team, but I can do it by myself which is now my goal.
I like the APA because it is a good night out. I get to play a lot of players who at this point are more skilled than me. I would rather play a tougher opponent, because it makes me a better player. APA is the only game in town for me too. I'm having fun with it and it will serve as the platform for me to get to Vegas as an individual competitor. I'll stay active in the league for that reason alone.
Blackcat has the right idea about the APA. Cheaters exist in every sport right up to the ranks of the pros. You can do it too, or you can have integrity, play to win and still enjoy it. If you try to pad your innings with me you'd better be way better than I am because will get lose and take a match that you'd win if you played me straight. I love winning those matches too...
McCue Banger McCue
Quite Frankly ....
I quit leagues 2 1/2 years ago, too much trouble, IMO.
I have played all 3, BCA, VALLEY (VNEA), and APA.
I have gone to Vegas for BCA and VALLEY, multiple times.
IMO, BCA is the best, then Valley, then APA.
A standard gauge to judge leagues on is their handicapping system.
The more finite a handicapping system is, the less sandbagging that
will occur in that league. 5 man 8 ball teams in BCA have a 1-75 handicap
rating. Valley goes 1-13 (last time I knew, here locally anyway), and APA
goes to 7. So, it does not take a genius to figure out that:
a APA 6 = almost 2 levels in Valley = almost 11 levels in BCA.
The more Pool skill levels contained within 1 handicap level equals more
sandbagging going on to maintain the handicap level by a player.
The BCA averages would be approximately 45-55 for an APA 6. Now there is a lot of difference between a 45 in BCA and a 55 in BCA, but both these players would just be a 6 in APA, so in APA you have 2 players playing as a 6, when their actual Pool skill level is actually quite a ways apart.
And the 55 in BCA, playing as a 6 in APA, would sandbag all he could to keep from going to a APA 7, which makes the overall team more competitive per team handicap than they would be with him going to a
7. A person going up even 1 handicap level can knock them out of winning a city championship or qualifying for Vegas, or even cause them to lose in Vegas. See, some don't call it sandbagging, some just call it
maiximizing their odds.
I quit leagues 2 1/2 years ago, too much trouble, IMO.
I have played all 3, BCA, VALLEY (VNEA), and APA.
I have gone to Vegas for BCA and VALLEY, multiple times.
IMO, BCA is the best, then Valley, then APA.
A standard gauge to judge leagues on is their handicapping system.
The more finite a handicapping system is, the less sandbagging that
will occur in that league. 5 man 8 ball teams in BCA have a 1-75 handicap
rating. Valley goes 1-13 (last time I knew, here locally anyway), and APA
goes to 7. So, it does not take a genius to figure out that:
a APA 6 = almost 2 levels in Valley = almost 11 levels in BCA.
The more Pool skill levels contained within 1 handicap level equals more
sandbagging going on to maintain the handicap level by a player.
The BCA averages would be approximately 45-55 for an APA 6. Now there is a lot of difference between a 45 in BCA and a 55 in BCA, but both these players would just be a 6 in APA, so in APA you have 2 players playing as a 6, when their actual Pool skill level is actually quite a ways apart.
And the 55 in BCA, playing as a 6 in APA, would sandbag all he could to keep from going to a APA 7, which makes the overall team more competitive per team handicap than they would be with him going to a
7. A person going up even 1 handicap level can knock them out of winning a city championship or qualifying for Vegas, or even cause them to lose in Vegas. See, some don't call it sandbagging, some just call it
maiximizing their odds.
The good thing about leagues is there generally is more than one organization in most areas. The APA is usually the beginning and its nice to take it to the next level if you are in an area that has other organizations. Its no different than what your first car purchase was and what your driving now, its what suits your needs. All leagues are good and people bounce back and forth as change occurs.
Somebody else thinks like me (that's scary)
DelaWho??? said:I'm playing in my third session. I am admittedly a novice player, having played seriously for about a year. I joined because I wanted to play alot of different players to improve my game. I will not sandbag or let up, my team captains (both Monday and Tuesday) know this. It is their responsibility to manage my handicap. Truthfully, I don't even think about handicaps when I'm playing, except to know what the race is.[End quote]
This exactly describes how I approach the APA league. I am only in my second session.
DelaWho??? said:Sandbagging does happen, and people will always look for a way to game the system. I got my ass handed to my by an SL3 last night 2 games in a row. I won the lag broke and came up dry, he runs 6 balls and leaves me jammed up. Second game I watch him drop 6 before I shoot, run my 7 leave myself a difficult shot on the 8 and miss. He pulls an outrageous banks shot out of his ass and leaves himself straight in on the 8. My teammate overheard his captain telling him to get his inning count up, and he refused stating if he let me get lose I would beat him...[End quote]
There's sandbagging in the APA
DelaWho??? said:
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Like a lot of sandbagging stories, this just doesn't add up. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but that this is most likely not sandbagging. A sandbagging 3 that ever wins a match in 3 innings has to be the worst sandbagger in the world. How the heck is smashing you in 3 innings "sandbagging"?? Is the theory that he spent months and months dumping and stretching all his matches up to this point? Then finally the moment he was waiting for arrives: a week 5 match (give or take a week) vs. Maniac!!! Forget waiting till the playoffs, now is the time to unleash his full game!!! That doesn't strike me as too likely.Maniac said:
In fact, 3's can win a match in 3 innings once in a blue moon (maybe 1 in 50 to 1 in 100 matches). Sometime the stars align. I've got a very good 3, her only problem is she can't really draw or stop, but she's go reasonably good control of her follow. If the runout is set up right for her, she's gonna finish, sometimes in 2 innings. If it's not set up right for the narrow set of shots she can execute, then it could take a dozen innings.
In fact, I've always thought the APA system punishes players too much for having a match like that -- they're almost certain to go up because of it. Other systems I've seen outside of pool would drop the top and bottom scores and average the middle ones; the APA uses the best 50% of your matches. This tends to raise players who have more variable performance, even if their average performance is pretty weak.
Cory
Cory in DC said:
You'll always get the baggers especially when the booze if flowing, but whats out of sync in the APA is if you have a team from a large east coast league, a 5 there is usually as strong as a 7 from a small town league in rural America. Its like a 5A High School Football team playing a 2A team, not much chance to win, thats what makes the finale somewhat unbalanced.
I agree with that statement about big towns very small towns. However, sandbagging is a major problem in leagues. I hate leagues...it simply comes down to who cheats the best. League pool is a big crock of crap. If you defend league pool and say that it is fair then you are simply in denial. Just my opinon...probably get blasted for it...dont really care.
Cory in DC said:
Cory, I am basing my comments on what I've seen. This guy just shoots too well and knows how to set up the table as good as any SL5 or SL6 in our league. This wasn't a once in a "blue moon" thing. As mentioned in my previous post, I have also seen him shoot in practice games and can tell you this guy is no SL3. Your just gonna need to trust whatever intelligence I have as a pool player on this one since you haven't witnessed him firsthand. I think we can all agree that sandbagging exists, and this is more than likely a prime example of it. My wife, bless her heart, is a SL3 also. She labors at the table and still has problems thinking more than 1 ball ahead. Even though she is the same skill level as he is, she is NOWHERE in this guys league. This guy probably stays at his level by whippin' up on players like my wife but tanking a few shots here and there to get his innings up. What baffles me the most is how he can still be at his level. I guess I should report him as a previous poster suggested. But, this would be for other peoples benefit, not mine, as I don't really want to get into the politics of it all, just have a nice night out at the pub with my wife and friends shooting some pool. As far as you wondering why he would smash me in three innings, I don't have an answer for that unless he realized that he was gonna have to shoot like that if he was going to win on this particular night. Until I sunk the eight ball early, I was shooting well on that particular night. And IMO, the comments you made about him waiting for the match against Maniac and "unleashing" his full game were a bit condescending.
Shoot well, my friend, and may all of your rolls be true!!!
Maniac
I was trying to be humorous rather than condescending, but that clearly didn't work. Sorry about that.Maniac said:
I do maintain my point that sandbaggers don't open up early in the season -- they wait till it's a bit more crucial. Playoffs at least, if not the tri-annual/citywide/vegas qualifier. Also, 3 innings with an E8 from you is not the same as 3 innings without the E8. He only had one strong run, not two (plus benefitting from you switching to agressive play). That's probably why he didn't go up.
But you do seem credible and to have a solid basis for thinking he plays 5 speed or higher. I say report him. (I only report when I think someone is more than one level off, which seems to apply here. It's more egregious and I'm more certain of sandbagging instead of a hot streak.)
You don't have to get into the politics of it. Just go with something like "this guy seems to shoot far above 3 speed, you might want to take a look at him." At that point, your work is done. IF your LO is concientious, they'll look at his scores, check to see if there are other complaints, ask veteran players they trust, send a watcher, ..., and then fix the problem.
Good luck!
Cory
Subject: APA handicap formula
The handicap system is based on "(innings-safeties)/win". In other words, how many times can I let you shoot (on average) before I need to worry about you winning the game? Obviously, the better you shoot, the lower your innings per game will be, and the higher your skill level. Non-performance shots and safeties (they are different) do not count toward your inning total for that match. Your average is based on only your best scores. The bad scores don't count at all. Only your last 20 scores count. Old scores are dropped. If you don't have 20 score in yet (like new players), then your average is based on the best scores:
1 score: That's your average.
2 scores: Average the 2.
3 scores: Average the best 2 scores.
4 scores: Average the best 2 scores.
5 scores: Average the best 3 scores.
6 scores: Average the best 3 scores.
7 scores: Average the best 4 scores.
8 scores: Average the best 4 scores.
9 scores: Average the best 5 scores.
10 scores: Average the best 5 scores.
11 scores: Average the best 6 scores.
12 scores: Average the best 6 scores.
13 scores: Average the best 7 scores.
14 scores: Average the best 7 scores.
15 scores: Average the best 8 scores.
16 scores: Average the best 8 scores.
17 scores: Average the best 9 scores.
18 scores: Average the best 9 scores.
19 scores: Average the best 10 scores.
20 scores: Average the best 10 scores.
After that, only the base 10 of your last 20 score count. Old scores
are dropped off as new ones are added.
The scores are averaged and will fall into one of these skill levels:
RANGE SKILL LEVEL
0.00 - 2.00 7
2.01 - 3.00 6
3.01 - 4.00 5
4.01 - 5.00 4
5.01 - 7.00 3
7.01 - 10.00 2
Note that the Bud Light systems does not allow any scores or averages
greater than 10 innings per game.
The place where the system gets sneaky is the 'applied scoring'. This
is most likely the part that your league operator doesn't want to tell
you. Then again he may not know it very well, as it is a little
complicated. Basically what the applied score is is a means to help prevent
sandbagging. The way it works is this:
Say you're a six afraid of going up to a seven.
You know that the cut-off for being a seven is 2.00 innings
per win or less.
You play good enough to win, but pad your innings to make sure
that your score for that match is over 2.00 innings per win.
Your league operator inputs a score for you of say: 5 games in
15 innings (3.00 innings per win). The APA system will give you
an 'applied score' base on your winning percentage instead of
that 3.00 score you worked so hard to get.
These applied scores are used for every match you win in which you shot
more innings than your skill level indicates. A side effect of the
applied score system is that it is next to impossible to drop a skill
level while maintaining a winning percentage above 50%.
Here are the applied scores for the various skill level/winning
percentage combinations:
S/L WIN APPLIED S/L WIN APPLIED
% SCORE % SCORE
7 100 1.1 6 100 2.1
7 90 1.1 6 90 2.1
7 80 1.2 6 80 2.2
7 70 1.3 6 70 2.3
7 60 1.4 6 60 2.4
7 50 1.5 6 50 2.5
7 40 1.6 6 40 2.6
7 30 1.7 6 30 2.6
7 20 1.8 6 20 2.8
7 10 1.9 6 10 2.9
5 100 3.1 4 100 4.1
5 90 3.1 4 90 4.1
5 80 3.2 4 80 4.2
5 70 3.3 4 70 4.3
5 60 3.4 4 60 4.4
5 50 3.5 4 50 4.5
5 40 3.6 4 40 4.6
5 30 3.6 4 30 4.6
5 20 3.8 4 20 4.8
5 10 3.9 4 10 4.9
3 100 5.1 2 ALL 7.0
3 90 5.1
3 80 5.2
3 70 5.3
3 60 5.4
3 50 5.5
3 40 5.6
3 30 5.6
3 20 5.8
3 10 5.9
The score being added counts toward the winning percentage. For example,
I'm a seven with a 90% winning percentage. Last night I beat a six in our
super-30 league 7 to 4 in 16 inning with 2 safeties. Since the safeties
don't count, my league operator will enter into his computer that I won my 7
games in 14 innings instead of 16. The APA software will compte innings per
win and come up with a score of 2.00. Then the software notices that I have
a 90% winning percentage, and that my applied score is 1.1. That 1.1
score is what will get stored in my records. It wouldn't matter if I had
taken 200 innings to beat the guy - I still would have gotten tha applied score
of 1.1, because I WON AND SHOT WORSE THAN MY WINING PERCENTAGE INDICATES
I SHOULD.
Applied scores are only used for WINS, so if I had lost my match, say
6 to 6 in 16 innings with 2 safeties, then I would get a 2.33 score in my
records. That's (16 innings minus 2 safeties) divided by 6 wins.
Also notice that the applied score for all 2s is 7.0, and that 7.0 is
actually a 3 skill level. What this does is prevent anybody from being a
2 with a winning percentage. Any time a 2 gets a winning percentage they
are automatically bumped up to a 3, since at that time their best scores
will be better than 7.01.
The system is fairly complicated, but it's designed pretty well. It's
actually the fairest system I've come across. It's possible to
sandbag in Bud Light, but it's possible to sandbag in any handicap system.
Good luck!
The handicap system is based on "(innings-safeties)/win". In other words, how many times can I let you shoot (on average) before I need to worry about you winning the game? Obviously, the better you shoot, the lower your innings per game will be, and the higher your skill level. Non-performance shots and safeties (they are different) do not count toward your inning total for that match. Your average is based on only your best scores. The bad scores don't count at all. Only your last 20 scores count. Old scores are dropped. If you don't have 20 score in yet (like new players), then your average is based on the best scores:
1 score: That's your average.
2 scores: Average the 2.
3 scores: Average the best 2 scores.
4 scores: Average the best 2 scores.
5 scores: Average the best 3 scores.
6 scores: Average the best 3 scores.
7 scores: Average the best 4 scores.
8 scores: Average the best 4 scores.
9 scores: Average the best 5 scores.
10 scores: Average the best 5 scores.
11 scores: Average the best 6 scores.
12 scores: Average the best 6 scores.
13 scores: Average the best 7 scores.
14 scores: Average the best 7 scores.
15 scores: Average the best 8 scores.
16 scores: Average the best 8 scores.
17 scores: Average the best 9 scores.
18 scores: Average the best 9 scores.
19 scores: Average the best 10 scores.
20 scores: Average the best 10 scores.
After that, only the base 10 of your last 20 score count. Old scores
are dropped off as new ones are added.
The scores are averaged and will fall into one of these skill levels:
RANGE SKILL LEVEL
0.00 - 2.00 7
2.01 - 3.00 6
3.01 - 4.00 5
4.01 - 5.00 4
5.01 - 7.00 3
7.01 - 10.00 2
Note that the Bud Light systems does not allow any scores or averages
greater than 10 innings per game.
The place where the system gets sneaky is the 'applied scoring'. This
is most likely the part that your league operator doesn't want to tell
you. Then again he may not know it very well, as it is a little
complicated. Basically what the applied score is is a means to help prevent
sandbagging. The way it works is this:
Say you're a six afraid of going up to a seven.
You know that the cut-off for being a seven is 2.00 innings
per win or less.
You play good enough to win, but pad your innings to make sure
that your score for that match is over 2.00 innings per win.
Your league operator inputs a score for you of say: 5 games in
15 innings (3.00 innings per win). The APA system will give you
an 'applied score' base on your winning percentage instead of
that 3.00 score you worked so hard to get.
These applied scores are used for every match you win in which you shot
more innings than your skill level indicates. A side effect of the
applied score system is that it is next to impossible to drop a skill
level while maintaining a winning percentage above 50%.
Here are the applied scores for the various skill level/winning
percentage combinations:
S/L WIN APPLIED S/L WIN APPLIED
% SCORE % SCORE
7 100 1.1 6 100 2.1
7 90 1.1 6 90 2.1
7 80 1.2 6 80 2.2
7 70 1.3 6 70 2.3
7 60 1.4 6 60 2.4
7 50 1.5 6 50 2.5
7 40 1.6 6 40 2.6
7 30 1.7 6 30 2.6
7 20 1.8 6 20 2.8
7 10 1.9 6 10 2.9
5 100 3.1 4 100 4.1
5 90 3.1 4 90 4.1
5 80 3.2 4 80 4.2
5 70 3.3 4 70 4.3
5 60 3.4 4 60 4.4
5 50 3.5 4 50 4.5
5 40 3.6 4 40 4.6
5 30 3.6 4 30 4.6
5 20 3.8 4 20 4.8
5 10 3.9 4 10 4.9
3 100 5.1 2 ALL 7.0
3 90 5.1
3 80 5.2
3 70 5.3
3 60 5.4
3 50 5.5
3 40 5.6
3 30 5.6
3 20 5.8
3 10 5.9
The score being added counts toward the winning percentage. For example,
I'm a seven with a 90% winning percentage. Last night I beat a six in our
super-30 league 7 to 4 in 16 inning with 2 safeties. Since the safeties
don't count, my league operator will enter into his computer that I won my 7
games in 14 innings instead of 16. The APA software will compte innings per
win and come up with a score of 2.00. Then the software notices that I have
a 90% winning percentage, and that my applied score is 1.1. That 1.1
score is what will get stored in my records. It wouldn't matter if I had
taken 200 innings to beat the guy - I still would have gotten tha applied score
of 1.1, because I WON AND SHOT WORSE THAN MY WINING PERCENTAGE INDICATES
I SHOULD.
Applied scores are only used for WINS, so if I had lost my match, say
6 to 6 in 16 innings with 2 safeties, then I would get a 2.33 score in my
records. That's (16 innings minus 2 safeties) divided by 6 wins.
Also notice that the applied score for all 2s is 7.0, and that 7.0 is
actually a 3 skill level. What this does is prevent anybody from being a
2 with a winning percentage. Any time a 2 gets a winning percentage they
are automatically bumped up to a 3, since at that time their best scores
will be better than 7.01.
The system is fairly complicated, but it's designed pretty well. It's
actually the fairest system I've come across. It's possible to
sandbag in Bud Light, but it's possible to sandbag in any handicap system.
Good luck!
KingCarom said:
Think about it for a second, breaking one team into two teams means more money, then two teams into four and so on. That's the idea behind raising handicaps and causing teams to have to split. It's a money making deal and they've been quite successful.
I was in the same boat you are in for a number of years and I finally had enough just as you sound like you have and I quit and haven't looked back. I got sick of the sand bagging and arbitrary raising of players handicaps anytime the LO felt like it. He always hit us with a couple of new handicaps before the city tournaments and I had enough of it. My pool game is much better since I quit and i've been playing on 9' tables. It was fun for a while though, but I don't miss it at all.
the team hndc system in bca is at the descretion of the local bca operator depending on the local skill levels in most cases.
most all are very similiar , but can be 1-10, 1-40 etc for 8 ball as an example.
its nice to have a say in your system locally as most operators encourage player input and involvement on a local level . since the teams play scratch on a national level , but in tiers, the hndc system can differ at home from area to area.
most of my players that have gone to bca nAtionals have commented they would rather get beat scratch honestly, instead of handicap at apa where a 3 runs 2 racks on a 5 as happened this year.
happy pooling
ljmoss
most all are very similiar , but can be 1-10, 1-40 etc for 8 ball as an example.
its nice to have a say in your system locally as most operators encourage player input and involvement on a local level . since the teams play scratch on a national level , but in tiers, the hndc system can differ at home from area to area.
most of my players that have gone to bca nAtionals have commented they would rather get beat scratch honestly, instead of handicap at apa where a 3 runs 2 racks on a 5 as happened this year.
happy pooling
ljmoss
ljmoss said:
Can someone please translate this??? I haven't a clue what he's trying to say...
McCue Banger McCue
DelaWho??? said:
Originally Posted by ljmoss
the team hndc system in bca is at the descretion of the local bca operator depending on the local skill levels in most cases.
most all are very similiar , but can be 1-10, 1-40 etc for 8 ball as an example.
its nice to have a say in your system locally as most operators encourage player input and involvement on a local level . since the teams play scratch on a national level , but in tiers, the hndc system can differ at home from area to area.
most of my players that have gone to bca nAtionals have commented they would rather get beat scratch honestly, instead of handicap at apa where a 3 runs 2 racks on a 5 as happened this year.
happy pooling
ljmoss
if you tell me what part of the above statement i posted you do not understand , i will be glad to be more specific. bye the way , as most already know i am a "she" not a "he". lol
I thought about playing leagues when I first started playing again but decided against it for a number of reasons. I am a bit of a loner by nature so I am not a big fan of the whole "team" deal. I'd much rather play tournamemts on my own and match up with random folks in small money match ups..Cheap sets, this type of thing than mess with all the league stuff
Ok my turn to chime in on the whole Handicap system lol.
I was always skeptical too about the APA system for handicaping, and like what JAYMAN said, when the scoring is done right it actually is very accurate. I always seemed to doubt the system because in my first session of playing 8ball, i was a SL6 after my 5th match. I had one session of 9ball and stopped and went to 8ball.
Now I was no SL6 atleast i didnt think i was. Because i had 3 other guys on this team, who were a SL6 and they would beat me like a redheaded stepchild all day long. Now since then, two of them are SL7's and one is about to be a sl7.
Plus, one thing that always made me leary of the SL ratings was seeing others who are either the same as me or 1 sl lower or more and getting my butt handed to me. IE you think people are sandbagging, cuz GOD forbid you shouldnt get beaten by anyone whos lower than you. EGO TRIP!
Now this session, i joined the other 8ball league in town which has 22 or 24 teams in two divisions vs the 6teams in the other league. I've been getting my butt handed to me in the new league. But i also ended up with a key guy on this team lol. He has the laptop with the program that figures out the handicap for everyone once it is put into the program.
And i brought it up, and mention'd stuff i seen and about certain players too.
He comes back a week later and tells me, that when I am on my game and playing well, I shoot just like a solid 6, not a weak 6 or strong 6, but a solid 6. He also told me he looked up other guys i mention'd and said the reason they have stayed lower, than what they should be or what people think they should be is cuz, thier AVERAGE is just below say a SL7 or SL6.
While they may win all the time, and have certain matches when they play lights out, they also have a bunch of other times, when their game play is more like a weak SL6.
Another big thing that was brought up during our yearly APA meeting before this session was accurately marking safties and innings. WHY? because during our LTC tournament to see who heads to Vegas, the TOP 5 or 6 teams all had atleast 3 players who went up 1 SL rating. WHY? because during the tournament people are playing safties left n right, and they were being marked.
And during league play nobody was marking any safties, which keeps your SL rating alot lower. I've noticed from day 1 in the APA, that very few people have someone who marks safties accurately during league play, which if this is not done, it only hurts your team and helps the other team.
I myself love to keep score or atleast watch over the person keeping score that way i know things are being marked properly. Because not everyone knows how other people shoot or notice when they take a half-assed shot.
The first 8ball team i was one had a lady who would keep score all the time, but never would mark any safties even if you told her too. Why? because she didnt know what a saftey was. She was also a APA sl 2.
Anyone keeping score should be atleast a SL4 or SL5 and knows what to look for when someone is shooting.
The other thing people associate with sandbagging is when someone is a SL2 or 3 and should be a 4 or 5 or higher. I've seen it before, and people intentionally will put up a new player against someone who's a SL 5 or 6, so the new person has no way of winning. And this makes thier SL rating go down. Is this sandbagging ? nope is handicap management. By putting someone who plays like a SL4, but is a SL2 or 3, against someone whos a SL5 or 6 all the time, doesnt mean they are sandbagging if the lower SL rated person doesnt win, when putting a full effort into it.
Wednesday, i had a newbie who two weeks ago lost and went down to a SL3, he wins the next week over another SL3 and moves upto a SL5. So I figured i would put him up against someone he shouldnt beat. So his rating would go down. I put him up against a SL6, and the newbie on my team ended up winning lol, when it was hill hill. But there was also 39innings and the other guy ended up with 20safties.
I'm not complaining because our guy won, good for him. But I also figured if he is a SL5, then he should be able to play like one. If he's not, then he would end up losing to the SL6 and his rating would go down.
This happens more often in larger APA leagues with better players. because they dont play them as often and thier ratings stay lower, because of better over all players and when they loose its a bad beating, and they drop in rating. Thats why you have some guys who are a SL5, and play like a 7, or a SL3 who plays like a 5.
I was always skeptical too about the APA system for handicaping, and like what JAYMAN said, when the scoring is done right it actually is very accurate. I always seemed to doubt the system because in my first session of playing 8ball, i was a SL6 after my 5th match. I had one session of 9ball and stopped and went to 8ball.
Now I was no SL6 atleast i didnt think i was. Because i had 3 other guys on this team, who were a SL6 and they would beat me like a redheaded stepchild all day long. Now since then, two of them are SL7's and one is about to be a sl7.
Plus, one thing that always made me leary of the SL ratings was seeing others who are either the same as me or 1 sl lower or more and getting my butt handed to me. IE you think people are sandbagging, cuz GOD forbid you shouldnt get beaten by anyone whos lower than you. EGO TRIP!
Now this session, i joined the other 8ball league in town which has 22 or 24 teams in two divisions vs the 6teams in the other league. I've been getting my butt handed to me in the new league. But i also ended up with a key guy on this team lol. He has the laptop with the program that figures out the handicap for everyone once it is put into the program.
And i brought it up, and mention'd stuff i seen and about certain players too.
He comes back a week later and tells me, that when I am on my game and playing well, I shoot just like a solid 6, not a weak 6 or strong 6, but a solid 6. He also told me he looked up other guys i mention'd and said the reason they have stayed lower, than what they should be or what people think they should be is cuz, thier AVERAGE is just below say a SL7 or SL6.
While they may win all the time, and have certain matches when they play lights out, they also have a bunch of other times, when their game play is more like a weak SL6.
Another big thing that was brought up during our yearly APA meeting before this session was accurately marking safties and innings. WHY? because during our LTC tournament to see who heads to Vegas, the TOP 5 or 6 teams all had atleast 3 players who went up 1 SL rating. WHY? because during the tournament people are playing safties left n right, and they were being marked.
And during league play nobody was marking any safties, which keeps your SL rating alot lower. I've noticed from day 1 in the APA, that very few people have someone who marks safties accurately during league play, which if this is not done, it only hurts your team and helps the other team.
I myself love to keep score or atleast watch over the person keeping score that way i know things are being marked properly. Because not everyone knows how other people shoot or notice when they take a half-assed shot.
The first 8ball team i was one had a lady who would keep score all the time, but never would mark any safties even if you told her too. Why? because she didnt know what a saftey was. She was also a APA sl 2.
Anyone keeping score should be atleast a SL4 or SL5 and knows what to look for when someone is shooting.
The other thing people associate with sandbagging is when someone is a SL2 or 3 and should be a 4 or 5 or higher. I've seen it before, and people intentionally will put up a new player against someone who's a SL 5 or 6, so the new person has no way of winning. And this makes thier SL rating go down. Is this sandbagging ? nope is handicap management. By putting someone who plays like a SL4, but is a SL2 or 3, against someone whos a SL5 or 6 all the time, doesnt mean they are sandbagging if the lower SL rated person doesnt win, when putting a full effort into it.
Wednesday, i had a newbie who two weeks ago lost and went down to a SL3, he wins the next week over another SL3 and moves upto a SL5. So I figured i would put him up against someone he shouldnt beat. So his rating would go down. I put him up against a SL6, and the newbie on my team ended up winning lol, when it was hill hill. But there was also 39innings and the other guy ended up with 20safties.
I'm not complaining because our guy won, good for him. But I also figured if he is a SL5, then he should be able to play like one. If he's not, then he would end up losing to the SL6 and his rating would go down.
This happens more often in larger APA leagues with better players. because they dont play them as often and thier ratings stay lower, because of better over all players and when they loose its a bad beating, and they drop in rating. Thats why you have some guys who are a SL5, and play like a 7, or a SL3 who plays like a 5.