"Poolology", Maybe the best $10 ever spent!

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks.

Yes, that's what I meant about attack.

I typically place my right toe on that plain as a starting point and if I line up on it, get down and kick my elbow to what feels like a exaggerated "right", then my elbow and back arm or tricep is dead on line with the shot line but it doesn't always add up to a straight execution blah blah blah.

I wish it did.

I bought a camera yesterday and I got a bunch of flaws.

Thanks.

Stroke flaws or alignment issues? Or both?

I think a good way to develop a true stroke would be to tape a mini laser pointer to the ferrule of your cue. Then get a box, a small box like 8 inches wide and at least 8 inches tall. Draw a thick vertical line (like 1/4" thick) down the center of one side of the box, then place it on the table a couple of feet away with the vertical line facing you. Turn the laser on, form a bridge and stroke the cue toward the line on the box. The beam can move up or down because that's a normal stroke movement, but it shouldn't move left or right of the vertical line. If it stays pretty much on the line, you've got a good stroke. If it moves left or right of the line you've got a funky thing going on that needs straightned out.

It would be a great invention to utilize an infrared beam (like at the bottom of a garage door) transmitted from the cue shaft, to a light-activated sensor inside the box. There would be a slit/gap in the box that allows the light to hit the sensor. As long as the sensor is getting the beam of light (meaning the stroke his correctly hitting the gap), music plays. Any time the stroke goes too far left or right the music stops. A simple on/off circuit in series between an MP3 player (or phone) and a speaker would work. The vertical gap in the box could be adjustable in width to accommodate a very wobbly stroke or a fairly straight stroke. The goal would be to keep stroking in order to hear an entire song with no cutouts.

I'd buy one. Would you?
 

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Stroke flaws or alignment issues? Or both?

I think a good way to develop a true stroke would be to tape a mini laser pointer to the ferrule of your cue. Then get a box, a small box like 8 inches wide and at least 8 inches tall. Draw a thick vertical line (like 1/4" thick) down the center of one side of the box, then place it on the table a couple of feet away with the vertical line facing you. Turn the laser on, form a bridge and stroke the cue toward the line on the box. The beam can move up or down because that's a normal stroke movement, but it shouldn't move left or right of the vertical line. If it stays pretty much on the line, you've got a good stroke. If it moves left or right of the line you've got a funky thing going on that needs straightned out.

It would be a great invention to utilize an infrared beam (like at the bottom of a garage door) transmitted from the cue shaft, to a light-activated sensor inside the box. There would be a slit/gap in the box that allows the light to hit the sensor. As long as the sensor is getting the beam of light (meaning the stroke his correctly hitting the gap), music plays. Any time the stroke goes too far left or right the music stops. A simple on/off circuit in series between an MP3 player (or phone) and a speaker would work. The vertical gap in the box could be adjustable in width to accommodate a very wobbly stroke or a fairly straight stroke. The goal would be to keep stroking in order to hear an entire song with no cutouts.

I'd buy one. Would you?

I don't knock your idea, I think it's great. But so is ghost ball etc etc but it doesn't work for me for numberous reasons that takes out a lot of commonality in pool that I speak of. There is a lot of commonality as far as perception goes though, but not visual method from what I observed.

I see or have a hardwiring or propensity for parallel and I let that influence my delivery.

Ernesto Domingez told me himself that he aims his stick at the target. If he doesn't, his stroke feels wobbly.

I cannot aim my stick in that fashion because it will tend to redirect my stroke because my stroke is either not grooved for it or maybe my stroke simply sucks. But I would imagine anyone's stroke would suck if you directed them to try a different method.

So with that said, I can't exactly tell you what my flaws are other than the obvious things that need addressing such as grip position on average needs to be one fist width back. I'm dropping my elbow on certain shots etc etc.

BUT, here's where I simply lean on my own personal journey of understanding and simply working with my biases and proclivities and make it work. I feel very confident I'll be able to solve it all but you can throw objectivity completely out the window.

However and this is a last statement or point, I don't see how a stroke can be ironed out to a point beyond simple sound mechanics which i do have....when there are positional shot layouts on a given table situation/location that force you or biases a player into a skewed position, thus stroke is effected.

Also, this business of sweep or how one comes into a shot or from what side of angle or even perception, effects stroke.

When I line up everything really well, my stroke behaves perfect. I can't do it for all shots unfortunately but I'm coming to some conclusions that sometimes you don't want a perfect stroke. It depends on the shot and perception and line up and desired cb effect. I've found sometimes it's best to just let that skewed appearing stroke rip.

I'll figure it out or confirm another solution must be found and if it means your box idea then I'll do it. If it means anything short of drugs or drinking a glass of cow pee, I'll do it.

But for now it's going to be my way and I'm having fun with it. I like a challenge but I have every intention of succeeding. Trying ain't good enough. Anyone can step into a cage and get their ass kicked.....winning is something else altogether.

Thanks sir.
 
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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
paultex:. Sounds like you are very determined and have plenty of passion, which happens to be two great paths to finding the right road to success, or "winmanship" as a buddy of mine says.

I read in a golf magazine years ago about Ben Hogan teaching three different swing planes, and how a player can test to see which swing best suits his or her body type. I've done it. It works. Instead of trying to conform to a certain swing, I found out which swing plane works best for me and immediately began shaving strokes off my golf game. I bring this up because I'm a firm believer in doing things your own way, programming your brain to make it work in accordance with your individual intricacies. For a beginning pool player, I would surely have to suggest sticking to traditional fundamentals and standard stroke as a starting point. But even then, that beginner will branch off at some point and make his stroke unique to his own feel and liking.
 

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
paultex:. Sounds like you are very determined and have plenty of passion, which happens to be two great paths to finding the right road to success, or "winmanship" as a buddy of mine says.

I read in a golf magazine years ago about Ben Hogan teaching three different swing planes, and how a player can test to see which swing best suits his or her body type. I've done it. It works. Instead of trying to conform to a certain swing, I found out which swing plane works best for me and immediately began shaving strokes off my golf game. I bring this up because I'm a firm believer in doing things your own way, programming your brain to make it work in accordance with your individual intricacies. For a beginning pool player, I would surely have to suggest sticking to traditional fundamentals and standard stroke as a starting point. But even then, that beginner will branch off at some point and make his stroke unique to his own feel and liking.

Yeah I like ben hogan and his story. He said he didn't have as much talent as the other champs so he figured he would beat them by out working them and I believe he did.

I also like that he was a man's man and a hard ass. He was involved in a bad car accident with his wife and just before impact, he threw himself in front of his wife in the passenger seat to protect her. That goes a long way in showing his character.

Then there's another story I thought was cool because I don't care much for Johnny miller. Miller as a young player went up to hogan at augusta I think and said how it was such an honor to meet him etc etc and hogan looks up and says, "can't you see I'm busy eating my soup??"

Lol

See, the problem with your box idea for me is i bet I could keep that music going no problem but put a cb/ob relationship in front of it and the music is going to stop.

There's just something tied into perception formulation of cb delivery that skews my stroke a certain way to meet the requirement for solution because cb manipulation for end result of static rest position is what influences my execution.

FORMULATION + LAUNCH POINT + CUEBALL DESTINATIONAL STATIC REST = pool

There's nothing in that equation about ball pocketing.

Ball pocketing is a binary allowance of continuation or finality.

Alignment is the system.

That's my methodology and it's the table and perception that owns me, not the other way around.

I watch guys like ko pin yi and I wish I could own it like he does but I can't. My brain simply doesn't over ride illusion. I skew my delivery to satisfy the illusion.

It's all one big trick shot to me and I'll be damned if I'm going to sit there and strain out shot after shot like I did in the past. I believe I got no choice in this matter because I've picked a direction, I believe there is solve and if I'm wrong, then I quit because I don't have time or desire to revamp again.

This is a one way ticket homie and I'm going to sink with the ship if that's the destination.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
.....
.......I watch guys like ko pin yi and I wish I could own it like he does but I can't. My brain simply doesn't over ride illusion. I skew my delivery to satisfy the illusion.

It's all one big trick shot to me and I'll be damned if I'm going to sit there and strain out shot after shot like I did in the past. I believe I got no choice in this matter because I've picked a direction, I believe there is solve and if I'm wrong, then I quit because I don't have time or desire to revamp again.

This is a one way ticket homie and I'm going to sink with the ship if that's the destination.

Well, I hope you stay afloat with a strong wind at your back!
 

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, I hope you stay afloat with a strong wind at your back!

I will and I'm going to give it every chance possible to succeed within my own methodology.

I got a severe problem with my head coming up when i pull the trigger. Even when i think ive stayed down, i don't.

I found one thread in here with some interesting suggestions. If i sink with this ship, if nothing else, I'm going to learn to keep my head down better than anyone else on the planet, even if it means never pocketing another ball for the next year.

I look like shyte.
 

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i just noticed in film study, where i kept my head down perfectly and it may have something to do with keeping my bridging arm out more toward the straighter length, rather than bent.

Perhaps i'm too cramped in my shot execution with a bent arm. I'll figure this out.
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I will and I'm going to give it every chance possible to succeed within my own methodology.

I got a severe problem with my head coming up when i pull the trigger. Even when i think ive stayed down, i don't.

I found one thread in here with some interesting suggestions. If i sink with this ship, if nothing else, I'm going to learn to keep my head down better than anyone else on the planet, even if it means never pocketing another ball for the next year.

I look like shyte.

Get your body and head/eyes into a lower shooting stance that allows you to see the cue ball, object ball and pocket at the same time and then, only if you allow, only your eyes will move after contact to follow the cue balls path to it's intended spot.

John
 
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paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Get your body and head/eyes into a lower shooting stance that allows you to see the cue ball, object ball and pocket at the same time and then, only if you allow, only your eyes will move after contact to follow the cue balls path to it's intended spot.

John

Boyyyy...John I used to be real low like that when I switched over to the dominant eye and basically started over 8 months ago and I found myself shooting at overlaps and I can't deal with that. I would start getting to lost down on shots where I would be there for a litteral minute or more sometimes.

I tried straightening my bridge arm and it does help in making my stroke more free where I don't feel like I got to get my head out of the way, but damn I feel unstable and too uncomfortable......it ain't happening.

Pressing down with the bridge hand helps and gripping further back helps too. I kept my head down much better with that and simply just forcing myself to stay down but I'll have to check my film today and see if I improved overall.

Hard to hit with more power though for anything requiring more than a firm stroke.

I'm tired. Gonna take a nap and go back in a few hours. This week has been a severe low point.
 

SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
Pressing down with the bridge hand helps and gripping further back helps too. I kept my head down much better with that and simply just forcing myself to stay down but I'll have to check my film today and see if I improved overall.

Hard to hit with more power though for anything requiring more than a firm stroke.

It's not that difficult, constantly remind yourself when practicing what and what not to do. We remind ourselves throughout our lives to stop making the same mistakes over and over again. It may take many reminders; repetition is the key ingredient.
Reminders and Fundamentals, write it down, put it on a chalk board, cell phone notes.

If you have arm, leg, neck, head, feeling cramped, jammed up, choked, body issues etc,
YOU NEED TO OPEN UP

Pool posture begins when standing over the shot and completes after the delivery, it’s a dance.
If your body is not set right or your mind is undecided you are on the road to jumping, missing, spinning, twisting, and so on, we are not smarter than our brain. Trying to trick our brain into believing that all the planets are in alignment before we pull the trigger is a losing battle. You may as well throw aiming and stroke technique in the garbage at that point.

Learn to use your Body Gait and Ape Index, you will flow and deliver more smoothly.

Imagine throwing a baseball when your body is wrapped in duct tape.

While body position is somewhat compact, it must flow evenly and smooth, play through your core.

Add a little more down pressure on your bridge for now until you find your posture, it will even out. You don’t have to drive your hand through the slate, pay attention, and use the reminder.

Staying Down (Sending The Cue Ball} (Lock your chin and swing arm shoulder)
After the cue ball makes contact with the object ball send the cue ball into position with your eyes only, not your head, Keep that head still, shift your eyes . Its great if you can track the object ball to the pocket, again, shift your eyes only; it's very simple, it's just eye movement that will keep you down on the shot.
Don't over complicate or analyze.


Simple routine:
While planning the shot it's good to air stroke, it helps in finding the proper Index for the stroke delivery and feel for the speed.
Adjusting your swing hand slightly, even 1/8 of an inch could make a huge difference in opening up to where you belong and finding your gait. Feel the stroke. Lock the chin and shoulder.

Get your feet under you and your gait in free position, foot position is very important, open your index. Pocket the ball, keep your head still, and send the cue ball into position with your eyes. "DONE" It's a simple dance with just a few steps and small eye movement.
RINSE AND REPEAT

Play inside the cue ball along the crease, within the quarter, center ball and down, look for clean hits. Power will not be a problem any longer.

Sincerely: SS
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hard to hit with more power though for anything requiring more than a firm stroke.

I didn't really read back in the thread to see exactly what the issue is, but it sounds like you have a problem with picking your head up. Your statement above suggests that you might be dropping your elbow completely during the stroke. When you do that there is a tendency to try and cram your whole arm through the space between the surface of the table and your head. You can't do it, so it causes your head to pop up. Try a few shots without dropping the elbow so much. As you get more comfortable with it you will begin to coordinate the muscles better so that you can still get good power when needed.

Just a quick thought, maybe off base.
 

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pressing down with the bridge hand helps and gripping further back helps too. I kept my head down much better with that and simply just forcing myself to stay down but I'll have to check my film today and see if I improved overall.

Hard to hit with more power though for anything requiring more than a firm stroke.

It's not that difficult, constantly remind yourself when practicing what and what not to do. We remind ourselves throughout our lives to stop making the same mistakes over and over again. It may take many reminders; repetition is the key ingredient.
Reminders and Fundamentals, write it down, put it on a chalk board, cell phone notes.

If you have arm, leg, neck, head, feeling cramped, jammed up, choked, body issues etc,
YOU NEED TO OPEN UP

Pool posture begins when standing over the shot and completes after the delivery, it’s a dance.
If your body is not set right or your mind is undecided you are on the road to jumping, missing, spinning, twisting, and so on, we are not smarter than our brain. Trying to trick our brain into believing that all the planets are in alignment before we pull the trigger is a losing battle. You may as well throw aiming and stroke technique in the garbage at that point.

Learn to use your Body Gait and Ape Index, you will flow and deliver more smoothly.

Imagine throwing a baseball when your body is wrapped in duct tape.

While body position is somewhat compact, it must flow evenly and smooth, play through your core.

Add a little more down pressure on your bridge for now until you find your posture, it will even out. You don’t have to drive your hand through the slate, pay attention, and use the reminder.

Staying Down (Sending The Cue Ball} (Lock your chin and swing arm shoulder)
After the cue ball makes contact with the object ball send the cue ball into position with your eyes only, not your head, Keep that head still, shift your eyes . Its great if you can track the object ball to the pocket, again, shift your eyes only; it's very simple, it's just eye movement that will keep you down on the shot.
Don't over complicate or analyze.


Simple routine:
While planning the shot it's good to air stroke, it helps in finding the proper Index for the stroke delivery and feel for the speed.
Adjusting your swing hand slightly, even 1/8 of an inch could make a huge difference in opening up to where you belong and finding your gait. Feel the stroke. Lock the chin and shoulder.

Get your feet under you and your gait in free position, foot position is very important, open your index. Pocket the ball, keep your head still, and send the cue ball into position with your eyes. "DONE" It's a simple dance with just a few steps and small eye movement.
RINSE AND REPEAT

Play inside the cue ball along the crease, within the quarter, center ball and down, look for clean hits. Power will not be a problem any longer.

Sincerely: SS

Thank you and yes, when in bad execution or result, I revert back to quarter center and vertical center.

When you say air stroke, do you mean behind cb in address or a ghost ball width to the left or right of cb to see where your follow through will go through the cb?

I do that often when leaning over or stretching for a shot or when I infrequently use a bridge. It helps a lot.

My problem is often my dialing in pre strokes behind cb are good but then when I pull the trigger, a misdirect occurs or my stroke itself can never get straight no matter how much I stand up and start over and pick a different alignment.

I'm working on stroke elbow position right now where I have it cocked out to the point where it can't really go out further without really feeling weird. Ironically, what feels too cocked over to the right is actually in good alignment and subsequently, the stroke only has one direction it can go but emphasizing this is also making my rear shoulder sore but I'm going to persue this direction for now because......

My stroke does feel out of the way of my head and the results are more consistent. I'm going to start filming right now.
 

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I didn't really read back in the thread to see exactly what the issue is, but it sounds like you have a problem with picking your head up. Your statement above suggests that you might be dropping your elbow completely during the stroke. When you do that there is a tendency to try and cram your whole arm through the space between the surface of the table and your head. You can't do it, so it causes your head to pop up. Try a few shots without dropping the elbow so much. As you get more comfortable with it you will begin to coordinate the muscles better so that you can still get good power when needed.

Just a quick thought, maybe off base.

Yep and my reply to smooth stroke seems to be a positive direction. Also when I emphasize cocking my elbow out, it raises my elbow in a better higher position and I can aim much lower on the cb for draw without miscueing.

It's hard to always cock the elbow out because it feels so unnatural but I got to persue this direction and after filming in a few minutes, I'm going to observe the mechanics.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yep and my reply to smooth stroke seems to be a positive direction. Also when I emphasize cocking my elbow out, it raises my elbow in a better higher position and I can aim much lower on the cb for draw without miscueing.

It's hard to always cock the elbow out because it feels so unnatural but I got to persue this direction and after filming in a few minutes, I'm going to observe the mechanics.

If you ever want a second opinion pm me and I'll send you my email. I've been tinkering around with what you are doing for years, literally, and only now am starting to feel like I have it figured out. The problem is that there are so many variables and you have to learn what happens when you change something like your elbow angle or your eye position, etc. Some variables are important, others not so much.

My criteria has been that the stroke has to be straight. I don't care how well I'm pocketing balls. If the stroke isn't straight then I keep working on a fix. For me, the Coach's Eye app is an absolute must in providing feedback. I can help with stuff like that if you want. You can go down a black hole if you don't get your camera set up perfectly. The camera angle can fool you if it isn't placed precisely, for instance.

Good luck.
 

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you ever want a second opinion pm me and I'll send you my email. I've been tinkering around with what you are doing for years, literally, and only now am starting to feel like I have it figured out. The problem is that there are so many variables and you have to learn what happens when you change something like your elbow angle or your eye position, etc. Some variables are important, others not so much.

My criteria has been that the stroke has to be straight. I don't care how well I'm pocketing balls. If the stroke isn't straight then I keep working on a fix. For me, the Coach's Eye app is an absolute must in providing feedback. I can help with stuff like that if you want. You can go down a black hole if you don't get your camera set up perfectly. The camera angle can fool you if it isn't placed precisely, for instance.

Good luck.

Yes I have found it difficult to line the camera up with a straight shot the first time I used it but now I just film my practice since I found other flaws that can be quickly addressed.

I will take you up on your offer when the time comes and I've found that: analyze.......COMPLETE:

FACT: The time ALWAYS comes.

Thanks and yes keeping my right elbow cocked out helps a great deal and it's not feeling so awkward any more and yes I do know an inconsistency in this area is a major problem.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes I have found it difficult to line the camera up with a straight shot the first time I used it but now I just film my practice since I found other flaws that can be quickly addressed.

I will take you up on your offer when the time comes and I've found that: analyze.......COMPLETE:

FACT: The time ALWAYS comes.

Thanks and yes keeping my right elbow cocked out helps a great deal and it's not feeling so awkward any more and yes I do know an inconsistency in this area is a major problem.

FACT: You'll get there if you just keep at it!
 

paultex

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
FACT: You'll get there if you just keep at it!

FACT:

If not within one year, I quit at this point of outward thinking.

FACT: I work harder than most but I'm not working hard enough.

FACT: That last statement is unfortunately true.

FACT: I personally don't know if I could train hard enough.

FACT: That last statement of rhetorical concept is a good thing and there's no doubt in my mind i am going to try and see if it's possible to work hard enough and I must admit, even what I think is going to be much more effort than I have ever put in, will still not come close to what's possible for "effort".

FACT: Effort is the same as "execution". It encompasses a total gambit of requirements.

CONJECTURE: Think about it, when you're away from the table and smelling the roses and holding your sweetheart's hand, I whisper sweet nothings in her ear, that she looks very beautiful today through my dominant eye. My other eye says to her that she looks like she decreased in mass lately.

See, where does the training stop if you work hard enough? I personally haven't come close and enough of this typing shyte, I got work to do.

.....off to the tables.
 

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
I think the word fact is being over used here...And thats a fact jack.;)
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
......... away from the table and smelling the roses and holding your sweetheart's hand, I whisper sweet nothings in her ear, that she looks very beautiful today through my dominant eye. My other eye says to her that she looks like she decreased in mass lately.

This is one of the funniest things I've ever read!

I remember dating a girl back when I was around 23 years old that hated for me to play pool. "All you do is play pool and party with your band!" she'd say. And she right. She was so jealous of the pool tables that I had to lie whenever I had a game lined up. I'd say I was going to help my brother work on his car, and then run straight to the pool hall. It would be noon on a Saturday. Then Sunday morning she'd wake me up, and I'd still be dressed in the same clothes from the day before. "What's this?" she'd ask, pointing at blue chalk marks on my shirt and that undeniable table grime buildup on the palm and fingertips of my left hand, my bridge hand.

Damn, those were long arguments. And then finally we'd make up, and while I'm holding her and kissing her my mind shifts back to a shot or two from last night, and I wonder if that guy is going to come back and play some more later tonight tomorrow. I give her another kiss and tell myself I'll wash my hands and brush off the chalk next time.
 
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