Efren Reyes vs. Ronnie Allen

gromulan

Reality police
Silver Member
freddy the beard said:
Quote Jay:
Freddy, you and I know that high speed pool is as much about heart and character, as it is about stroke and ball pocketing ability. Who can pull the trigger when all the cash is on the line. There is a reason these guys are legends.
Ronnie, Kelly, Red, Richie, Denny. They were poolplayers! As good as any that ever lived, Filipino, German or otherwise.
And I'll go to my grave believing that.


Jay, here is an excerpt from my upcoming book, The GosPool According To The Beard, and my take on "Who was better.":

Players of my era would destroy players of today. Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Artie Bodendorfer, Boston Shorty, Eddie Taylor, Cincinnati Clem Metz, etc., were vicious killers who would shark*, cheat, psyche, and even tush-hog* their opponents in order to win. Now consider this. Players of the 30s and 40s would probably destroy the players of my era! Marcel Camp, Gene Skinner, The Eufala Kid, John "Rags" Fitzpatrick, Johnny "Irish" Lineen, New York Fats, Hubert Cokes, Alton "Baby-Face" Whitlow, Tommy the Greek, James Evans, Isadore"Pony" Rosen, et al., played even harder than the Ronnie Allen-era boys. The economic conditions necessary to develop players of that determination and ferocity are no longer present. Depression-era players were hungry wolves, whose level of concentration was nail-bending. Economics of the 50s, 60s and early 70s, while they didn't rival the Depression years, were nonetheless hard times.
the Beard

You'll go to your grave wrong. Living in the past can be fun, but it ain't real accurate. Efren would make Ronnie Allen look like a baby at one pocket. The simple truth is that the standard for all sports that people play has done nothinig but go up over time. This is true for every sport in the world, from golf and tennis to track and swimming. Records get broken every day. 30 years from now some of us will be sitting around telling the youngsters that no one in their era could have beaten Efren. We will probably be wrong too.

As new players come in they learn the skills of those that came before them and they build upon that. They rise to the top and before long another comes along who is just slightly better. The progression is endless. In 20 years who knows how good guys will play. Remember when Efren first came on the scene? All those kick safeties and things he shot at were unheard of. Now they're standard shots and all the guys play them. Archer and Strickland used to have the biggest breaks around. Now they just keep up. They haven't gotten worse - everyone else has gotten better.

Golf: Jones, Hagen, Nelson, Palmer, Nicklaus - Woods would beat them all
Tennis: Laver, Borg, Lendl, Edberg, Sampras - Federrer would beat them all
Snooker: Davis, Spencer, Reardon, Davis, Hendry - O'Sullivan would beat them all
Pool: Hoppe, Camp, Mosconi, Lassiter, Kelly, Sigel, Archer, Efren - someone is coming who will beat them all, I promise. Somewhere there's a kid watching every move Efren makes who will one day suprass him. It's called evolution, and it's happening before our eyes.

Now of course your era may well have the monopoly on guys who played short, cheated, robbed, hustled and otherwise acted like douches, but I kinda doubt that too. However, if that's a crown you really want I won't debate it.


But with all that said, I hope you don't go to your grave for a long, long time yet. The discussions are fun to have.
 

nibrobus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Matt_24 said:
I was impressed when Jerry McWorter during an Accu-stats match asked Efren what his best game was, he said "3-Cushion". McWorter was utterly shocked by this statement. He also went on to tell a story that he saw Efren gambling Ronnie Allen at one-pocket (maybe early 90's or late 80's) and just torturing him. Does this ring a bell to anyone?

I have that tape - Efren actually says his best game was Balkline. It's pretty crazy watching him practice billiards on a pool table and still somehow trap the balls in the corner (without them going in the pocket).
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
freddy the beard said:
Quote Jay:
Freddy, you and I know that high speed pool is as much about heart and character, as it is about stroke and ball pocketing ability. Who can pull the trigger when all the cash is on the line. There is a reason these guys are legends.
Ronnie, Kelly, Red, Richie, Denny. They were poolplayers! As good as any that ever lived, Filipino, German or otherwise.
And I'll go to my grave believing that.


Jay, here is an excerpt from my upcoming book, The GosPool According To The Beard, and my take on "Who was better.":

Players of my era would destroy players of today. Bugs, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Artie Bodendorfer, Boston Shorty, Eddie Taylor, Cincinnati Clem Metz, etc., were vicious killers who would shark*, cheat, psyche, and even tush-hog* their opponents in order to win. Now consider this. Players of the 30s and 40s would probably destroy the players of my era! Marcel Camp, Gene Skinner, The Eufala Kid, John "Rags" Fitzpatrick, Johnny "Irish" Lineen, New York Fats, Hubert Cokes, Alton "Baby-Face" Whitlow, Tommy the Greek, James Evans, Isadore"Pony" Rosen, et al., played even harder than the Ronnie Allen-era boys. The economic conditions necessary to develop players of that determination and ferocity are no longer present. Depression-era players were hungry wolves, whose level of concentration was nail-bending. Economics of the 50s, 60s and early 70s, while they didn't rival the Depression years, were nonetheless hard times. When I was coming up, a good bite* from a fellow pool player was a buck ($1) or a deuce ($2). We missed many meals and some nights had to carry the banner*, and wound up in the bus station or an all-night movie. City buses were the standard mode of transportation. Only a few players had cars. If you had as much as three barrels* to play someone with, you were a fortunate man. We didn't care if we had a "good" game or not. Who should beat who, was not a major concern. Arbitrary skill handicapping went out the window. Our real concern was that our opponent had money that he was willing to lose. A really "good" game was when you had ten dollars and your opponent had a hundred.

the Beard


Freddie,

I love that last line. I remember those days, "playing on ass". I played several times with NO money in my pocket, trying to beat a guy. We would play $2 a game and pay after $10 or five games. Talk about having to play hard under pressure. You HAD to win! If you lost, you were subject to take a beating. And I am proud to say I never lost in that spot. In fact I once won over $400 starting with 35 cents in my pocket. And it felt like a million dollars back in the 60's.

Thanks Freddie. I'm with you there. The guys we grew up with were serious players, with talent and the gift of gab. I saw Kelly drop the rock on a dime game after game. Who can play shape like that today? Only Efren and the new guy, Orcullo. My gut feeling is that if you could somehow transport the best players of today back to the 60's and 70's, and drop them off at The Rack. Sayonara bankroll.

If you messed with Cornbread, Mataya, Hippy Jimmy, Ervolino, Shorty, Jersey Red, Ronnie and Richie you were going home broke. Busted and disgusted was the term we used. Sure, Cliff, Scott Frost, T Rex, James Walden are strong players and gamblers. But they would be badly overmatched with the above named crew.

Only Parica, Efren and Busty could have taken this much heat. Parica is cut from the same mold. And Efren, well he's Efren. Simply magnificent. And Busty always shows me big heart. Archer runs 13 racks and Busty wins the next set! Of the new breed, Orcullo impresses me the most. He does the little things that separate the great players from the merely good. And for the American side, I like Shane. He has great desire, and is a fearless gambler.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
thebighurt said:
After asking the following players.. Johnny Ervolino, Buddy Hall, Danny Diliberto, Bob Ogburn, Allen Hopkins etc... it is concluded thay Efren would of ROBBED Ronnie Allen, Efren would of had Ronnie out on the street turning tricks for him.. I had tried to be polite and say that efren had a slight edge after asking everybody but their real opinion was that Efren would bend Ronnie over the table and nail him dead in the keester. Ronnies ego would have kept him busted screwing around with Efren..lol

Now what is the next topic for you older guys.. Bob Cousy was a better basketball player than Michael Jordan

You know, you could be right about that. I don't profess to know all the answers. I just know that I never saw Ronnie take the worst of it for 20 years. And he played anyone who had a cue and money. He always could find a way to beat his man. I respect the opinion of all the above players, but remain unconvinced.

None of those guys ever beat Ronnie, trust me on that. And they all got weight. There may be a hint of professional jealousy going on here. Ronnie could get under your skin after all.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Williebetmore said:
JH,
Very interesting observation. I've often discussed my father and the bunch of degenerate pool gamblers he hung around with (they had all hung out with Willie Mosconi during his time living in KC). Of course they all thought Mosconi was the greatest; but at the time (1960's) they thought that the greatest active player was Eddie Kelly (over Lassiter and Worst).

It was a very great experience for me to get to actually meet "Champagne Eddie" at DCC 2 years ago. He seemed quite surprised that I knew of him, and of his reputation in the 60's. I sweated a couple of his matches and watched him torture a couple of younger players at 9-ball. He said his game was not anywhere near where it could be, and he apologized for not having beat the kids more convincingly. He must have been great.

Kelly was like a comet across the pool horizon. He played brilliantly for maybe ten years, then he quit to be a dealer in Vegas. He couldn't make a living at Pool. No one would play him for money. And the tournament scene was pretty scarce.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Matt_24 said:
Where does Nick Varner range in the lineup of "greatest" ALL-AROUND players? Tricky Nicky, a.k.a. The little Grinder, a.k.a. The Kentucky Colonel HAS to be near the top!

Any stories of Varner's gambling exploits? I know tournament wise he has won in every arena of American Pocket Billiards (excluding three cushion, and snooker). He plays world class 9 Ball, Straight Pool, One Pocket, and Banks...and has the titles to show for it.

I was impressed when Jerry McWorter during an Accu-stats match asked Efren what his best game was, he said "3-Cushion". McWorter was utterly shocked by this statement. He also went on to tell a story that he saw Efren gambling Ronnie Allen at one-pocket (maybe early 90's or late 80's) and just torturing him. Does this ring a bell to anyone?


Yes, Efren gave an "over the hill" Ronnie a ball and the break. And murdered him.

I watched part of this match and I will make this observation. Ronnie beat Efren to the shot in every game, and had the advantage. He just couldn't run the balls anymore. He would run maybe four or five and need two or three balls to win.

Ronnie would begin to shoot the balls downtable. That is where Efren took over. He would finally find a long rail bank, make it, and get behind the balls that were all inside of two diamonds. And from there, he would run eight and out. It was an amazing display of cue ball control and shot-making. Every game seemed to follow this same pattern.

After a while, I couldn't stand to watch anymore. It was a sad to see Ronnie end up this way. The Ronnie of 15 years before would have won every game. In fact if Efren gave Ronnie the break, Ronnie could have spotted him balls. With Ronnie, the break was worth four balls.

How good was Nicky? Damn good. In his generation, there were many excellent All Around players. Mizerak, Sigel, Rempe, Varner and Hopkins. Buddy too, but his 14.1 game was slightly suspect. Although he probably played better Banks than any of the above, with Nick and Sigel very close behind. I would rank them as follows: Mizerak #1, Sigel a close 2nd, Nick, Rempe and Allen a tie for 3rd.

Now when it comes to gambling, everything changes. Buddy moves to the top of the list. Nick and Allen are tied for 2nd. Sigel and Rempe are 3rd. And Miz is watching from the sidelines. The only game he was ever willing to bet on was 14.1. And no one was crazy enough to go for that.

Although Cornbread called him out in Vegas the year Steve won the first U.S. Open. I was there when Steve said he would play 200 points for $200. Red laughed and said he would play him for $2,000. Steve, of course, declined. Red was a little derogatory to Steve and told him to get lost. He called him a two bit gambler, and took all the change out of his pocket and threw it at Steve. Steve put his tail between his legs and left.

Sorry to tell this, but that was Cornbread. Not exactly a shrinking violet. And I hate to admit, I liked this guy. He was bigger than life, a Runyanesque character. With a stroke like a machine gun, pounding ball after ball in the pocket, like nails in his opponents coffin.

Some on here call these characters scum and worse. But I am glad I knew them and got hustled by them too. Believe me Detroit Whitey and a few others I won't mention were much, much worse than Red. At least Red was right up front and in your face. He was not covert. He was gonna get your money and he told you so.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
gromulan said:
You'll go to your grave wrong. Living in the past can be fun, but it ain't real accurate. Efren would make Ronnie Allen look like a baby at one pocket. The simple truth is that the standard for all sports that people play has done nothinig but go up over time. This is true for every sport in the world, from golf and tennis to track and swimming. Records get broken every day. 30 years from now some of us will be sitting around telling the youngsters that no one in their era could have beaten Efren. We will probably be wrong too.

As new players come in they learn the skills of those that came before them and they build upon that. They rise to the top and before long another comes along who is just slightly better. The progression is endless. In 20 years who knows how good guys will play. Remember when Efren first came on the scene? All those kick safeties and things he shot at were unheard of. Now they're standard shots and all the guys play them. Archer and Strickland used to have the biggest breaks around. Now they just keep up. They haven't gotten worse - everyone else has gotten better.

Golf: Jones, Hagen, Nelson, Palmer, Nicklaus - Woods would beat them all
Tennis: Laver, Borg, Lendl, Edberg, Sampras - Federrer would beat them all
Snooker: Davis, Spencer, Reardon, Davis, Hendry - O'Sullivan would beat them all
Pool: Hoppe, Camp, Mosconi, Lassiter, Kelly, Sigel, Archer, Efren - someone is coming who will beat them all, I promise. Somewhere there's a kid watching every move Efren makes who will one day suprass him. It's called evolution, and it's happening before our eyes.

Now of course your era may well have the monopoly on guys who played short, cheated, robbed, hustled and otherwise acted like douches, but I kinda doubt that too. However, if that's a crown you really want I won't debate it.


But with all that said, I hope you don't go to your grave for a long, long time yet. The discussions are fun to have.

Dennis Orcullo has arrived. Nuff said.
 

thebighurt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
Dennis Orcullo has arrived. Nuff said.

I could be wrong but somebody on this board had said that Orcullo had beaten Efren the last 7 times they have gambled in the Phillipnes, their information was WAY OFF. Efren robs him when they gamble.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
thebighurt said:
I could be wrong but somebody on this board had said that Orcullo had beaten Efren the last 7 times they have gambled in the Phillipnes, their information was WAY OFF. Efren robs him when they gamble.

You may be misinformed here. Members of the filipino contingent have stated that Dennis has beaten all the top players in the Philipines, including Efren.
And more than once. I have personally heard this statement by other filipino players, including Jose.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
gromulan said:
You'll go to your grave wrong. Living in the past can be fun, but it ain't real accurate. Efren would make Ronnie Allen look like a baby at one pocket. The simple truth is that the standard for all sports that people play has done nothinig but go up over time. This is true for every sport in the world, from golf and tennis to track and swimming. Records get broken every day. 30 years from now some of us will be sitting around telling the youngsters that no one in their era could have beaten Efren. We will probably be wrong too.

As new players come in they learn the skills of those that came before them and they build upon that. They rise to the top and before long another comes along who is just slightly better. The progression is endless. In 20 years who knows how good guys will play. Remember when Efren first came on the scene? All those kick safeties and things he shot at were unheard of. Now they're standard shots and all the guys play them. Archer and Strickland used to have the biggest breaks around. Now they just keep up. They haven't gotten worse - everyone else has gotten better.

Golf: Jones, Hagen, Nelson, Palmer, Nicklaus - Woods would beat them all
Tennis: Laver, Borg, Lendl, Edberg, Sampras - Federrer would beat them all
Snooker: Davis, Spencer, Reardon, Davis, Hendry - O'Sullivan would beat them all
Pool: Hoppe, Camp, Mosconi, Lassiter, Kelly, Sigel, Archer, Efren - someone is coming who will beat them all, I promise. Somewhere there's a kid watching every move Efren makes who will one day suprass him. It's called evolution, and it's happening before our eyes.

Now of course your era may well have the monopoly on guys who played short, cheated, robbed, hustled and otherwise acted like douches, but I kinda doubt that too. However, if that's a crown you really want I won't debate it.


But with all that said, I hope you don't go to your grave for a long, long time yet. The discussions are fun to have.


I respect your opinion but am in disagreement on several counts. I submit that the greats of yesteryear often were as good or better than their contemporary counterparts.

Case in point, Golf. Tiger may be the greatest of all times (sounds like Efren again), but I contend Nicklaus, Palmer, Hogan, Snead, Nelson et al would be winners today as well. They would just upgrade to new equipment. Nicklaus drove the ball more accurately than Tiger, played great under pressure and could putt for the dough. And he had to deal with Palmer, Player, Casper, Miller and Watson among others.

Baseball. Bob Gibson and Sandy Koufax would still mow them down today. And Stan Musial and Frank Robinson would terrorize pitching staffs. George Brett, Rod Carew and Wade Boggs are as good or better hitters than anyone currently around. And Hank Aaron was the Efren Reyes of baseball.

Pool. Harold Worst was the best player I ever saw. And Efren is second.

To catagorically say that the current athletes are better than their predecessors is not a statement I can wholeheartedly agree with.
 

freddy the beard

Freddy Bentivegna
Silver Member
Gettin old does have some advantages

Talking about the old days doesnt necessarily make you senile. What it does indicate is that you were actually there and were able to participate "live" in the events that you are talking about. You see, I actually played big money pool with a Bugs and a Ronnie in their prime. I aint going by what I "heard" from somebody else. I also played Efren every day for a year, and then played him periodically at tournaments thereafter. I also object to our guys being called douches and scum-bags. Detroit Whitey was probably the only guy that really filled that bill, and to tell the truth, I was totally fascinated by him. The tragedy is that you young-uns missed out on being around some of those great characters. I wouldnt trade the time I spent with Corn Bread Red for a five year extention of my life. A good analogy is the fun and color of Dizzy Dean and the St. Louis Cardinals Gas-House Gang compared to todays New York Yankees...boring.

the Old Beard
 

freddy the beard

Freddy Bentivegna
Silver Member
Billy Incardona's take on Ronnie

Another excerpt from my next book, The GosPool:

The most telling description I have heard regarding Ronnie's One Pocket game came from top player, Bill Incardona, who is also the voice of the Accu-Stat Pool Videos. When Bill was asked to rate Ronnie's game against One-Hole* champion, Allen Hopkins of NJ, Billy gave this account: "I played Hopkins for $1000 a game in his basement in Jersey. He spotted me 10 to 8. Even though we were in his house, and he is a great player, his game is very conservative and predictable. I was totally comfortable and relaxed, and was able to play my game, which allowed me to beat him. I later played Ronnie in Las Vegas, in my pool room, on my tables, for the same bet, and with the same spot, 10 to 8. The difference was when I played Ronnie, the whole time I felt like I was in a very hot oven. I never had a clue as to what Ronnie was going to do next. He was crashing balls and running out, and the cue ball was constantly flying around all over the table. I got to thinking the only safe place to leave the cue ball was in a bank vault."

the Beard
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
freddy the beard said:
Talking about the old days doesnt necessarily make you senile. What it does indicate is that you were actually there and were able to participate "live" in the events that you are talking about. You see, I actually played big money pool with a Bugs and a Ronnie in their prime. I aint going by what I "heard" from somebody else. I also played Efren every day for a year, and then played him periodically at tournaments thereafter. I also object to our guys being called douches and scum-bags. Detroit Whitey was probably the only guy that really filled that bill, and to tell the truth, I was totally fascinated by him. The tragedy is that you young-uns missed out on being around some of those great characters. I wouldnt trade the time I spent with Corn Bread Red for a five year extention of my life. A good analogy is the fun and color of Dizzy Dean and the St. Louis Cardinals Gas-House Gang compared to todays New York Yankees...boring.

the Old Beard

Hey we finally agree on something. I always said the funniest lines I've ever heard were in poolrooms, not from some comedian on TV. And you came up with some dandies yourself.

In those days, a pooplayer had to be a one man road show, to generate action. Part comic, part grifter, part salesman, part hustler and full time player. That could describe Cornbread, Puckett, Ronnie, Jersey Red, Danny, Ervolino, NY Blackie, Shorty, Richie From The Bronx and many more. What a blast to hang around with these guys and watch them play. Like you, i wouldn't trade that time for anything.

And they were not outlaws or thieves. They were poolplayers. Everyone knew who the treacherous ones were. And yes, Whitey was at the top of every list.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
freddy the beard said:
Another excerpt from my next book, The GosPool:

The most telling description I have heard regarding Ronnie's One Pocket game came from top player, Bill Incardona, who is also the voice of the Accu-Stat Pool Videos. When Bill was asked to rate Ronnie's game against One-Hole* champion, Allen Hopkins of NJ, Billy gave this account: "I played Hopkins for $1000 a game in his basement in Jersey. He spotted me 10 to 8. Even though we were in his house, and he is a great player, his game is very conservative and predictable. I was totally comfortable and relaxed, and was able to play my game, which allowed me to beat him. I later played Ronnie in Las Vegas, in my pool room, on my tables, for the same bet, and with the same spot, 10 to 8. The difference was when I played Ronnie, the whole time I felt like I was in a very hot oven. I never had a clue as to what Ronnie was going to do next. He was crashing balls and running out, and the cue ball was constantly flying around all over the table. I got to thinking the only safe place to leave the cue ball was in a bank vault."

the Beard

Great story about a unique player. Thanks Freddie. You just had to see it to believe it. I spent time on the road with Ronnie and he never ceased to amaze me. I learned new shots every day. We used to practice 8-4 for $10 and I rarely broke even. And I could beat many decent players (Shortstops if you will) even back then.
 

gromulan

Reality police
Silver Member
freddy the beard said:
Talking about the old days doesnt necessarily make you senile. What it does indicate is that you were actually there and were able to participate "live" in the events that you are talking about. You see, I actually played big money pool with a Bugs and a Ronnie in their prime. I aint going by what I "heard" from somebody else. I also played Efren every day for a year, and then played him periodically at tournaments thereafter. I also object to our guys being called douches and scum-bags. Detroit Whitey was probably the only guy that really filled that bill, and to tell the truth, I was totally fascinated by him. The tragedy is that you young-uns missed out on being around some of those great characters. I wouldnt trade the time I spent with Corn Bread Red for a five year extention of my life. A good analogy is the fun and color of Dizzy Dean and the St. Louis Cardinals Gas-House Gang compared to todays New York Yankees...boring.

the Old Beard

I never said you were senile, and I never would, even if it were true. I agree that you were there, and I know you played many of the greats of yesteryear and I respect that. For myself, I played none of them and so I base my judgement soley on my observation of the general nature of sports in that the talents of all players gets better over time. I believe this to be a naturally occuring facet of humans when it comes to sports. 40 years ago the 4 minute mile was unheard of, now guys do it running around Central Park. 40 years ago snooker had it's first maximum break, now there are 10 or 15 a year. It's the same in pool, in my opinion, with the exception that it's hard to identify per se the exact things a top player does that make him greater/better than his predecessors. Pool is a very subtle game where the differences between a guy like, say, Ronnie Allen in his prime, and Efren Reyes today, are very very small things, and very hard to pinpoint. Despite that, those differences are there, and they add up to a lot over a long period of time. I believe Efren has more shots and can do more things than anyone who came before him.

As for the douche comment, it was you who brought up that the players in your day would play short, shark, hustle and rob. There are those who respect that sort of thing because it makes them 'guys who will do anything to get the cash', but I ain't one of them. If someone can't win square then they should go get a job.

Sadly, I think today's generation is getting better at that part of the game too, though.
 
Last edited:

gromulan

Reality police
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
I respect your opinion but am in disagreement on several counts. I submit that the greats of yesteryear often were as good or better than their contemporary counterparts.

Case in point, Golf. Tiger may be the greatest of all times (sounds like Efren again), but I contend Nicklaus, Palmer, Hogan, Snead, Nelson et al would be winners today as well. They would just upgrade to new equipment. Nicklaus drove the ball more accurately than Tiger, played great under pressure and could putt for the dough. And he had to deal with Palmer, Player, Casper, Miller and Watson among others.

Off topic, but Tiger is a being like no other seen before in golf. Nicklaus was out of this world, but Tiger is out of this universe. Jack may have a slight edge in total driving but Tiger's short game is waaaaaay better than Jack's ever was and, at that level, that's what's going to get the cheese in the long run.

Also, Tiger's total driving was a lot better before he switched equipment and began using a large-head driver with a graphite shaft. Aside from that, he uses pretty traditional equipment (his irons are muscleback blades, in traditional lofts). If everyone was forced to play with persimmon drivers I think his edge would be even greater than it already is, over Nicklaus as well as everyone else.
 

gromulan

Reality police
Silver Member
freddy the beard said:
Talking about the old days doesnt necessarily make you senile. What it does indicate is that you were actually there and were able to participate "live" in the events that you are talking about. You see, I actually played big money pool with a Bugs and a Ronnie in their prime. I aint going by what I "heard" from somebody else. I also played Efren every day for a year, and then played him periodically at tournaments thereafter. I also object to our guys being called douches and scum-bags. Detroit Whitey was probably the only guy that really filled that bill, and to tell the truth, I was totally fascinated by him. The tragedy is that you young-uns missed out on being around some of those great characters. I wouldnt trade the time I spent with Corn Bread Red for a five year extention of my life. A good analogy is the fun and color of Dizzy Dean and the St. Louis Cardinals Gas-House Gang compared to todays New York Yankees...boring.

the Old Beard

I never said you were senile, and I never would, even if it were true. I agree that you were there, and I know you played many of the greats of yesteryear and I respect that. For myself, I played none of them and so I base my judgement soley on my observation of the general nature of sports in that the talents of all players gets better over time. I believe this to be a naturally occuring facet of humans when it comes to sports. 40 years ago the 4 minute mile was unheard of, now guys do it running around Central Park. 40 years ago snooker had it's first maximum break, now there are 10 or 15 a year. It's the same in pool, in my opinion, with the exception that it's hard to identify[/] per se the exact things a top player does that make him greater/better than his predecessors. Pool is a very subtle game where the differences between a guy like, say, Ronnie Allen in his prime, and Efren Reyes today, are very very small things, and very hard to pinpoint. Despite that, those differences are there, and they add up to a lot over a long period of time. I believe Efren has more shots and can do more things than anyone who came before him.

As for the douche comment, it was you who brought up that the players in your day would play short, shark, hustle and rob. There are those who respect that sort of thing because it makes them 'guys who will do anything to get the cash', but I ain't one of them. If someone can't win square then they should go get a job.

Sadly, I think today's generation is getting better at that part of the game too, though.
 

enzo

Banned
a point that id like to make, from what i KNOW about efren, and from what ive HEARD about ronnie. if they were playing by the game, effie may go down 5 or so barrels, ronnie would lose it all.

what am i saying exactly? just that even if ronnie did catch a gear against him, there wouldnt be much more to see after that, effie would unscrew. effies philosophy: im doing the wowing and doing the winning or im outa here. you gotta admire ronnie in this department more (ie in the amount of gamble department), no matter whos game you like more.

for this reason, it is my opinion that (depending on how they would be playing i guess), that the smart money would be on efren, because he will win but he wont lose... even if hes being backed.
 
Last edited:

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
gromulan said:
I never said you were senile, and I never would, even if it were true. I agree that you were there, and I know you played many of the greats of yesteryear and I respect that. For myself, I played none of them and so I base my judgement soley on my observation of the general nature of sports in that the talents of all players gets better over time. I believe this to be a naturally occuring facet of humans when it comes to sports. 40 years ago the 4 minute mile was unheard of, now guys do it running around Central Park. 40 years ago snooker had it's first maximum break, now there are 10 or 15 a year. It's the same in pool, in my opinion, with the exception that it's hard to identify per se the exact things a top player does that make him greater/better than his predecessors. Pool is a very subtle game where the differences between a guy like, say, Ronnie Allen in his prime, and Efren Reyes today, are very very small things, and very hard to pinpoint. Despite that, those differences are there, and they add up to a lot over a long period of time. I believe Efren has more shots and can do more things than anyone who came before him.

As for the douche comment, it was you who brought up that the players in your day would play short, shark, hustle and rob. There are those who respect that sort of thing because it makes them 'guys who will do anything to get the cash', but I ain't one of them. If someone can't win square then they should go get a job.

Sadly, I think today's generation is getting better at that part of the game too, though.

Grom,

In general I would agree with you. With one caveat. The exceptional athletes in any generation would probably be the equal of those in the next generation.

Once again in baseball - Hank Aaron, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, George Brett, Rod Carew would still excel today.

Tennis - Ivan Lendl, Bjorn Borg, Jimmy Connors, Johnny Mac, Boris Becker the same.

Golf - Nicklaus, Palmer, Hogan, Snead, Nelson, Watson all would be winners and contenders on today's tour.

Jim Brown and Gale Sayers would still be hard to bring down by todays behemoths, and Dr. J. and Pistol Pete would still be sensational.

That is my contention. And the same holds true for the greats in Pool. Fast forward Ralph Greenleaf 50 years and he would be one of the top 9-Ballers. He did play 9-Ball by the way and loved to gamble.
 
Last edited:

ironman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
freddy the beard said:
Talking about the old days doesnt necessarily make you senile. What it does indicate is that you were actually there and were able to participate "live" in the events that you are talking about. You see, I actually played big money pool with a Bugs and a Ronnie in their prime. I aint going by what I "heard" from somebody else. I also played Efren every day for a year, and then played him periodically at tournaments thereafter. I also object to our guys being called douches and scum-bags. Detroit Whitey was probably the only guy that really filled that bill, and to tell the truth, I was totally fascinated by him. The tragedy is that you young-uns missed out on being around some of those great characters. I wouldnt trade the time I spent with Corn Bread Red for a five year extention of my life. A good analogy is the fun and color of Dizzy Dean and the St. Louis Cardinals Gas-House Gang compared to todays New York Yankees...boring.

the Old Beard
Good job Freddy. Good job!!!
 
Top