Secrets!

D

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
The secret is making others think there are secrets.

Like the cut shot discussed so far in regards as to what english to be used.

The real secret is to make that cut shot with any type of english you want to use.

Only thinking that for this type of shot , you use only this english limits you.
 
book collector

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After looking through hundreds of books on pool and billiards from 1807 until 1978,I believe that there was very little "correct" information about how to play pool available. Mingauds 1827 work had a treasure chest full of ideas and concepts which you could incorporate,{he actually invented nearly every concept we use today} but how many people would have even known to look for it?
imo with the exception of George Fels book, most of the books were basically, misinformation. All copied from the same incorrect or incomplete source.
About the only way to get knowledge was to befriend a good player and hope they were one of the few who would show you.
If you go back in the history of players you can just about follow a who's who of pool progression of their mentors by the area the grew up in.
There were very few exceptions.
Jump forward to Bob Byrne, Ray Martin, Phil Capelle, all the Dvds all the free stuff from Dr. Dave all great information and myriad other sources available now, that anyone who can read can utilize.
I believe that is why there are so many great players from all over the world today.
I have written in another thread that I overheard a converstaion between Jim Rempe and another pro one time about backhand English in the early 1970s. Bert Kinnister says they wanted to strangle him when he gave up that "secret".
Understandaby so, it is a powerful weapon you can use to get the cueball to places on the table you can't any other way. {At least that I have seen}.
I will never forget the day I learned how to put force follow on the cueball next to the rail, at the time it was probably worth almost a ball at my One Pocket game! Just that one shot!
How about drag draw?
I learned that on my own and didn't know what it was called in the 60s.
I used it waaaaay too much for about 5 years but it is a huge shot to know for beginners.
Every shot or move has a value, I showed a great player a shot when I was in Phoenix he didn't know, he said he valued it at 1/10th of a ball.
He's a very fine player, much higher skill level than me , so it must have been a potent shot to make that much difference.
Of course, it makes sense, because I learned it from a great player named George Rood.
Every shot , move, stroke , trick , that you learn has a value to be put in your overall game.
I am sure there are still some "secrets" that have not been given out, but I believe there is enough information available to anyone with good comprehension , great eyesight and decent nerves to become a high level player.
All of you guys 40 years old and under should send a thank you note to Bob Byrne, he started the information flow, without it , most of you would still be hacking around like you see the old timers.
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
duckie said:
The secret is making others think there are secrets.

Like the cut shot discussed so far in regards as to what english to be used.

The real secret is to make that cut shot with any type of english you want to use.

Only thinking that for this type of shot , you use only this english limits you.
Click to expand...

There are secrets. Knowledge that some people have and don't share with others are secrets. I can never learn Bruce Lee's Kung Fu from books or self-study. I can learn some of it. But to really learn it I need to find someone who knows what is not in the books or who can properly demonstrate the concepts in the books.

The top players understand that any shot can be made with any spin or no spin. But they also know that certain shots are easier to "cinch" if done a certain way. So given the choice they CHOOSE to use that method over all others because that method carries a higher percentage of success. If an amateur is not privy to this then he lives under the impression that the make percentage is equal for all spin applications. The result is that the amateur MISSES the shot more often than he would if he knew the secret to cinching it.

A pro will take a worse position on the next ball in order to cinch the current shot. An amateur will try to get perfect position and shoot the lower percentage method and miss. People like Buddy Hall and Rodney Morris know these things and impart them to people who ask them in the right way.

Some things are hard to discover by trial and error alone. I guarantee you that the day I spent with Jimmy Reid opened my eyes more than the books I read up to that point. He showed me one tip for shooting over balls that I'd bet is not in any book or tape not authored by Jimmy. At least I have never seen it. But then again I haven't seen and read all the book and videos put out since then either. That one tip though has made me lots of money by getting me out of clutch situations.
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Blue Hog ridr said:
Jimmy has about 7 DVDs John. Did you watch all of them? I'm going to have to watch them again.
Click to expand...

I haven't watched any of them. I spent a few days with Jimmy in Germany when he lived there. He was one of the first pros I made a case for back in the early 90s.
 
Blue Hog ridr

Blue Hog ridr

World Famous Fisherman.
Silver Member
His DVDs are pretty thorough with lots of instant little tricks one can easily remember and employ. I'd almost be willing to bet that the trick you're talking about is in there somewhere.

Fer an instance, his long masse shot has got me out of trouble many times, and even have potted my share of balls using it.
Takes about 30 seconds to show and easily accomplished with a minor amount of practice.
 
Last edited:
jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Eddie Kelly showed me this shot after I watched him use it in a match. He had a very long shot to make a cut shot on a ball near the pocket in One Pocket, and he didn't want the cue ball to go too far after contact. Plus he didn't want to slow roll the cue ball for fear it would roll off, since the table had some rolls to it. What did he do to make sure he made this shot and "killed" the cue ball after contact so it didn't roll too far. He needed the cue ball to "die" right there to have shape on the next ball. I'll give you all a guess until someone tells me how to shoot this shot and make it successfully a high percentage of the time, especially on a table that may have some rolls to it. If no one can guess the answer (and I think they will with this crowd) by morning I'll tell you myself.
 
Last edited:
DRW

DRW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
Eddie Kelly showed me this shot after I watched him use it in a match. He had a very long shot to make a cut shot on a ball near the pocket in One Pocket, and he didn't want the cue ball to go too far after contact. Plus he didn't want to slow roll the cue ball for fear it would roll off, since the table had some rolls to it. What did he do to make sure he made this shot and "kill" the cue ball after contact so it didn't roll too far. He needed the cue ball to "die" right there after contact to have shape on the next ball. I'll give you all one guess each until someone tells me how to shoot this shot and make it successfully a high percentage of the time, especially on a table that may have some rolls to it. If no one can guess the answer (and I think they will with this crowd) by morning I'll tell you myself.
Click to expand...
Low draw, inside English, shot hard.
 
book collector

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
Eddie Kelly showed me this shot after I watched him use it in a match. He had a very long shot to make a cut shot on a ball near the pocket in One Pocket, and he didn't want the cue ball to go too far after contact. Plus he didn't want to slow roll the cue ball for fear it would roll off, since the table had some rolls to it. What did he do to make sure he made this shot and "killed" the cue ball after contact so it didn't roll too far. He needed the cue ball to "die" right there to have shape on the next ball. I'll give you all a guess until someone tells me how to shoot this shot and make it successfully a high percentage of the time, especially on a table that may have some rolls to it. If no one can guess the answer (and I think they will with this crowd) by morning I'll tell you myself.
Click to expand...

Without seeing the shot diagrammed, from your explanation, I would say he hit 2/3 rds of the object ball with extreme high english center of cueball or slightly to the side opposite the pocket. A force follow shot. Now that I posted this, I am probably misunderstanding the position, i would think most people would know this.
 
Last edited:
Siz

Siz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mikjary said:
...
Daly and Mosconi said when approaching the shot line, stand square to the shot with the cue stick at your side, pointing at the shot. Then turn into the shot. I do a variation of this to keep my dominant eye dominant. I'm right handed and keep my body to the left of the shot. This allows my dominant right eye to get the best view...,
Click to expand...

Good advice - but only if you are 'same eyed dominant'? I dont know what others have found, but for players who are opposite eye dominant (right handed, left eye dominant, seems to be a common combination) presumably this approach could cause problems?
 
gunzby

gunzby

My light saber is LD
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
Eddie Kelly showed me this shot after I watched him use it in a match. He had a very long shot to make a cut shot on a ball near the pocket in One Pocket, and he didn't want the cue ball to go too far after contact. Plus he didn't want to slow roll the cue ball for fear it would roll off, since the table had some rolls to it. What did he do to make sure he made this shot and "killed" the cue ball after contact so it didn't roll too far. He needed the cue ball to "die" right there to have shape on the next ball. I'll give you all a guess until someone tells me how to shoot this shot and make it successfully a high percentage of the time, especially on a table that may have some rolls to it. If no one can guess the answer (and I think they will with this crowd) by morning I'll tell you myself.
Click to expand...

High, force follow will slam the brakes on the CB when it comes off the rail and even put some draw on the CB once it comes off the rail.

I used to get ppl to make a double take when I would shoot that shot just messing around and get the CB to come off the rail, stop and draw back into the same pocket I shot the OB into.
 
Ratta

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
Jim Rempe said the same thing years ago, when discussing the best way to shoot a certain shot. His words, "It's not shot selection, it's shot execution that's important!" There have been many players down through the years who would take some funny routes to get position for the next shot. But they kept making it work for them so who is to say if it was right or wrong.
Click to expand...

!!
First you have to become a great shotmaker-- the rest will follow and happen by finetuning your game with solid-practicing (and getting knowledge of course, too) and enough table-time. Without shotmaking you ll never be a great player who wins big tournaments.

I don t like to talk about *secrets*- It s all about getting knowledge and nothin else. All is available outthere. And furthermore often the secret are strong fundamentals. Executing a straight stroke moving whitey to the point where you WANT it to go.

Practicing, Observing, Playing, Listening, Studying-- like in real-life. that s all.

lg
Ingo
 
Ratta

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
Secrets:

There are for sure more ppl with tons of knowledge-but they just never became pro-players or big-tournament-winners.
That s often the only difference. Some guys would pay 1000 $ for a lesson with a professional than taking a lesson from another guy ( is it just an expirienced good player, an instructor or whatever) for 100$.

I ve seen this so often- a guy i know paid 600 $ for some hours of training with a well known pro. After reporting what *he learnt* i recommended him that buying some food for the money would have been better......
Sure there are professionals who can teach you also a lot of things.
But if there WOULD be really secrets......they wouldn t have to play money-tournaments anymore-or we would have hundreds more of pool-professionals.
 
JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
@Ratta - you are misunderstanding the concept. Of course the balls and sticks and cloth and rails and all that are the same for everyone. But the knowledge of how best to work with those things is not contained IN those things.

Think of a hammer. You aren't born knowing how to swing a hammer. You aren't born knowing how to put two pieces of wood together in the strongest way possible.

I can give you a pile of wood, a saw, a box of nails and a hammer and tell you to build a table. Then I give your buddy all the same things but also a master carpenter to whisper in his ear. Which one of you do you think might end up with the better table in the shortest amount of time?

All the knowledge is "out there" but until it's easily available and widely known then it's more of a secret. No one is really talking about magic bullets that make a person win all the time. Just certain techniques that good and great players figure out or are taught that work well for them consistently that aren't widely or commonly known. These things generally have to be passed on from person to person until someone publishes them in a way that they can be understood.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
sfleinen said:
I don't know why, and perhaps I'm in the minority, but I've always found that I can cut the object ball thinner with draw than with follow. Perhaps the reason why (in my case) is that the thinnest cuts always seem to be into the side pocket, and I'm trying to swing the cue ball away from the corner pocket scratch.
Click to expand...
Here's a "secret": draw doesn't change the CB's path on very thin cuts, so it isn't helping you avoid those scratches.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
 
jay helfert

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
Eddie Kelly showed me this shot after I watched him use it in a match. He had a very long shot to make a cut shot on a ball near the pocket in One Pocket, and he didn't want the cue ball to go too far after contact. Plus he didn't want to slow roll the cue ball for fear it would roll off, since the table had some rolls to it. What did he do to make sure he made this shot and "killed" the cue ball after contact so it didn't roll too far. He needed the cue ball to "die" right there to have shape on the next ball. I'll give you all a guess until someone tells me how to shoot this shot and make it successfully a high percentage of the time, especially on a table that may have some rolls to it. If no one can guess the answer (and I think they will with this crowd) by morning I'll tell you myself.
Click to expand...


Okay, so here's how he shot it. He used a firm draw stroke with center ball and hit the shot so the cue ball skidded down the table until the draw released and the cue ball slowly turned over. The cue ball was now only about a foot away from the object ball and rolled slowly into it. He made the ball and the cue ball came to rest a few inches away. It was a very cool shot to see. Later I asked him why he hit it this way. He explained to me that by hitting it firmly like this the cue ball wouldn't roll off and he could make a thin cut on the object ball and the cue ball would die on the end rail, which it did.

One of you (DRW) got it just about right. It's pretty hard to use force follow on a thin cut shot. The cue ball will get away from you. Now if the shot is relatively straight, you can use force follow to kill the cue ball off the end rail.

P.S. Kelly was a great player, only the best of his generation! Maybe one of the best all around players ever. Kelly had no weaknesses at any game! He was something to see, an artist at work. Beautiful stroke, smooth as silk, an elegant manner as he moved around the table, almost like he was dancing. What a magnificent player he was. You can say what you want about tighter pockets and all that, but this guy would be a great player even today. He could play some pool!
 
Last edited:
dr9ball

dr9ball

"Lock Doctor"
Silver Member
jay helfert said:
Eddie Kelly showed me this shot after I watched him use it in a match. He had a very long shot to make a cut shot on a ball near the pocket in One Pocket, and he didn't want the cue ball to go too far after contact. Plus he didn't want to slow roll the cue ball for fear it would roll off, since the table had some rolls to it. What did he do to make sure he made this shot and "killed" the cue ball after contact so it didn't roll too far. He needed the cue ball to "die" right there to have shape on the next ball. I'll give you all a guess until someone tells me how to shoot this shot and make it successfully a high percentage of the time, especially on a table that may have some rolls to it. If no one can guess the answer (and I think they will with this crowd) by morning I'll tell you myself.
Click to expand...

Edited because: Answer was already given by Jay.

Jay you beat me to it. Guess I need to get up earlier. :)
 
M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Siz said:
Good advice - but only if you are 'same eyed dominant'? I dont know what others have found, but for players who are opposite eye dominant (right handed, left eye dominant, seems to be a common combination) presumably this approach could cause problems?
Click to expand...

The Daly/Mosconi setup has the player standing square to the shot. Neither eye is over the cue stick. The stick is at your side, like shooting from the hip. Believe it or not, your brain will get you on the correct line.

My variation actually moves my left, non dominant eye more into the aiming picture. I think this is the opposite of what you're implying. I look across the shot, not straight down the shot line. It works for either eye dominance.

You will see pros using this in every tournament. Some are more obvious than others. Watch as they place the tip of the stick on the cloth and see how they stand in relation to the shot. It becomes an ingrained, unconscious habit after a while. If you're struggling, it is a quick connect to your subconscious mind. It is a way to say, "Okay. What do I need to do? You show me."

You can also use it to get warmed up from the git, especially under pressure or with little practice time. If I get on the table cold, I use this to help see the correct alignment. Let the inner mind aim so you don't have to. It knows what to do. Let it happen and take control so you can shorten the time it takes to get into dead stroke.

Best,
Mike
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top