With everything else we are doing we just thought it isn't the time to introduce that case. There are a few things I need to work on to make it work a little better.
The History of Cue Cases?
- Thread starter JB Cases
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With everything else we are doing we just thought it isn't the time to introduce that case. There are a few things I need to work on to make it work a little better.
Not first hand knowledge. From the pictures I have collected the construction and protection level seems pretty straightforward.
What impresses me with Steve's work is that he keeps it simple with just a touch of decoration. Believe it or not it's very difficult to know where to stop and in my opinion Steve nails it on his cases.
The other thing I am impressed with is that Steve is building what looks to be a very solid case with no stitching. He has figured out how to put the whole thing together with rivets in such a way that it looks great and not like a biker jacket on steroids. Very clever and very classy.
Someday when I get around to it I will make a sort of case museum online that celebrates all the lesser known makers. In cue case making there is an awful lot of creativity out there that hasn't really made national news.
I currently have around 90 case makers/brands identified with a couple more folders of unknown/unidentified cases.
Yes. The Gina cases actually predated the Fellini and it's a pretty sure bet that the Fellini was directly influenced by the Gina cases. One member here on AZ has access to many unfinished Gina case parts if I am not mistaken.
The Gina case was built internally similar to the Harvey Martin with very thin nylon separating the cue parts. Externally the case was made with the leather glued to the body and the ends folded over the top.
Harvey Martin isn't really well known but if you really want to give credit where credit is due then the credit for the hand-finished ends should go to Martin. I don't know if Harvey Martin actually made the cases or not. But I can't find any examples of this technique on other leather goods. The obvious comparison would be upholstery except that upholstery hides the ends of the material so that it can be tacked or stapled after being pulled tightly.
Laying the leather up over the ends and finishing it with a patch of leather seems to be fairly unique to cue cases.
It cannot be understated how hard this is to do and get right. Very very easy to get wrong. You will find no tutorials anywhere (at least I never found any) on how to do this technique. In upholstery you don't have to be super careful about how the leather fits together because it's tucked away and unseen. So upholsters have all sorts of tricks to make the leather behave and look great for the part you see.
I would like to add that there ARE examples of upholstered cases where the ends are tucked into the tube and then leather/vinyl covered cap is placed in the top. This is NOT the same as the hand-finished ends I am speaking of.
In a case like the Harvey Martin, Gina, Fellini and GTF the person doing the work doesn't have a lot of room for error because what you see is what you get.
Harvey Martin and Gina both skived the leather to almost paper thin which certainly made the job much easier. The drawback to this is that it decreased the durability of the leather tremendously. This is probably a reason why so few of these cases have survived. A lot of them were probably thrown away as junk when the leather wore through. For this reason surviving examples should be prized.
Fellini used thicker leather on the ends and this came with it's own set of problems. Namely keeping the leather down. You can see on a lot of Fellinis that the ends are separating from the body. This happens when the leather and glue react to climate change. Sam Engles also had this problem on many of his cases. And this is normal because without a Martin or Gina to study then those that follow only have the examples available to them.
We have invented a way to pretty much insure that the ends stay put forever for the GTF cases. So far 3 years and counting it seems to be working.
But yeah, the real credit goes to Martin for the hand-finished ends and then to Gina for the flush slip cover case.
To be fair slip cover cases have been made for centuries. But as far as I can tell the modern version using nested extrusion tubes started with Ernie at Gina.
Note: There may be examples of the flush-lid slip cover style as Viking Cases which were also from the 60s.
(I don't have any examples of the Gina - Maybe someone else could provide some?)
Martin:
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Fellini:
Engles:
GTF:
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The Cases Roy has are 1 x 2, Black, or Brown like the Cue Case in the movie The Hustler,they were made by Murnak of NYC. As I said Roy @ INDYQ has some specials going so if this is what you are talking about contact Roy for prices, etc.
This is a very good case. Roy does have them in stock and ready to sell. As usual when he likes someone and something he stocks deep. I don't know how many he has left but if you really are interested in this style of case then Jim did an excellent job on these and Roy has them with no waiting.
I inspected them thoroughly in January when I was there. Good cases. Well done.
Harvey Martin isn't really well known but if you really want to give credit where credit is due then the credit for the folded over endcaps (I need a better name for this technique) should go to Martin.
John the correct description is what Sam always used, "hand finished ends".
John the correct description is what Sam always used, "hand finished ends".
I guess that works well because there isn't really any other way to do them. The leather has to be essentially massaged into place. We use a few tools to help but the work is all done by one person, one case, with each one being a unique exercise.
Sam definitely chose the hardest method to finish the ends.
John I think the one that that would be cool is to have like an Accessory Cup to hold a few item like Chalk, Willard, Tip Pick, Scuffer, etc.
Ginacue Case
Ernie Gutierrez made cases for several years, and was influential with Dan Whitten when Dan started making cases. I think(?) Ernie made cases in the 1970`s-mid 1980`s.
I have several cases made by Ernie, one of which matches a one of a kind fancy ivory-loaded cue in the late 1960`s early 70`s for a prominent tv personality in LA. I probably have 5-6 of these cases.
Will Prout
Ernie Gutierrez made cases for several years, and was influential with Dan Whitten when Dan started making cases. I think(?) Ernie made cases in the 1970`s-mid 1980`s.
I have several cases made by Ernie, one of which matches a one of a kind fancy ivory-loaded cue in the late 1960`s early 70`s for a prominent tv personality in LA. I probably have 5-6 of these cases.
Will Prout
Those are rare to see anymore. A friend told me Ernie still has some of the core structures of the cases in his shop, and that they looked like they were made from some pressed fiber material.
If I see Ernie ( I just saw him last week shooting pool) I'll suggest that he make a few, to preserve for the future.
I would like to see some Ginacue cases in pics again. They used to be quite common here in LA but I haven't seen one in many years.
Chris
Back in the 80's Bill McDaniel was making the "Kelli" tube style cases with the hand finished ends and the same lock as Fellini. At that time Schon was making an almost identical case too, down to the hand finished ends and the Fellini lock.
So I heard. The thing is that I don't have a single picture of a case that I can identify as a Kelli case. I only have one image where it's titled Engles and Kelli cases and the cases are all the same in appearance with no indication as to which is which.
Didn't Sam sort of inherit or take over the case making from Bill? This kind of fits in with Runscott's request to have a little more information as to case maker associations.
I heard for example that Ron Thomas worked with It's George for a couple weeks and then went off to make cases on his own. Ron says he never worked FOR it's George so who knows? The first Thomas cases were very similar to It's George and then later Ron switched to something of a Centennial/George/Fellini hybrid.
I also have no picture of a Schon case. I have seen a few unidentified cases which people have said is a Schon case. Did they label the cases in any way?
People talk about knockoffs and they rarely say anything about the whole Harvey Martin/Gina/Fellini family of cases. I'd say that this style is the most emulated by small case makers over all others when you figure in all the brands that have done it,
Let's see, after Martin we have Gina, Viking, Adam, Fellini, Centennial, Ann Gore/Manx, It's George, Schon, Kelli, McDermott, Ron Thomas and GTF.
Did I miss any?
History of cases
Wonderful post John! I appreciate you taking the time to save all this history and for taking the time to write it out. I'm especially interested in Ann Gore's work since she was supposed to be from my area.
Just need more pictures! Love seeing the classic cases and their evolution. Or retro~reinvention.
Thank you!
Wonderful post John! I appreciate you taking the time to save all this history and for taking the time to write it out. I'm especially interested in Ann Gore's work since she was supposed to be from my area.
Just need more pictures! Love seeing the classic cases and their evolution. Or retro~reinvention.
Thank you!
. The thing is that I don't have a single picture of a case that I can identify as a Kelli case. I only have one image where it's titled Engles and Kelli cases and the cases are all the same in appearance with no indication as to which is which.
The Kelli case was smaller, no label, and sometimes a Gorton pantographed logo on the lock. The cue and shafts fit tight with no rattle, you could not get a cue in a Kelli with the joint and tips up. That was Sam's original design change from the other tube style cases, the ability to put the butt in with the joint and shaft tips in the upright position.
I also have no picture of a Schon case. I have seen a few unidentified cases which people have said is a Schon case. Did they label the cases in any way?
No labels I ever saw, but the cases from Schon are bigger than a Fellini and a tad bit smaller than an Engles. They will always have a Fellini style lock. There are several subtle design differences between a Schon and a Fellini that make identification fairly easy.
The Kelli case was made in Bill's shop by employees, mainly a Swedish woman named Evore.
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This shows an Ann Gore suede case on far left, the rest are Fellini's. Also, there is a close up of the label she used for awhile.
After Fellini closed (she worked there) , Ann made some cases with just a glued on label like this, so they were easily removed or fell off. I've seen a few that had no label. Some of them said Ann Gore and some said "Manx". She used the Fellini shell and sometimes the Fellini locks. This case had a latch style lock.
The shell, leather work, and interiors are identical to Fellini's. These cases now belong to another member on AZ who has a wonderful case collection.
Chris
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Thanks for the information on Jim Knott. This is the first I have heard about him. Several years ago, I bought one of his cases on this forum from azb member Von Rhett, and continue to use it daily. It has held up very well, although Von said he had a new latch put on some time back. I haven't had to do any maintainance to it. The case is in the Flowers/Swift tradition of tooled leather and gets compliments all the time. I also still have one of your older Instroke black/brown leather 3x6/7 cases with zippered pockets that belonged to a now deceased trick shot artist named Chet (I forget his last name right now, have it written somewhere), that you gave to him as a gift, and we emailed back and forth briefly about it. This is a great case. One of these days I will photograph the cases and put them up in the gallery. Thanks for all this good information, John.