Help with Pool Experiment / Part 3

David Marcus

David Marcus

"not bad,for a blind man"
Silver Member
Once again I need your assistance....part 3

I would like to test a theory with the help of my fellow AZers. My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be.
I would also submit that depending on where in the country or in the world that you play weighs in to your "regional ranking" system. Is an A player in Chicago the same as an A player in the South or vice versa?
Thirdly the question is whether you can accurately judge a players level simply by watching a brief sample of them playing or practicing?
I'll be very curious to hear what each of you think. Please watch the video below and post on this thread the level of player/players you think you are watching. Please try to stick to straight whole letter grades for the sake of this exercise.
Thanks in advance for your assistance in this experiment.

http://youtu.be/-Bk5HQflDkw
 
David Marcus said:
Once again I need your assistance....part 3

I would like to test a theory with the help of my fellow AZers. My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be.
I would also submit that depending on where in the country or in the world that you play weighs in to your "regional ranking" system. Is an A player in Chicago the same as an A player in the South or vice versa?
Thirdly the question is whether you can accurately judge a players level simply by watching a brief sample of them playing or practicing?
I'll be very curious to hear what each of you think. Please watch the video below and post on this thread the level of player/players you think you are watching. Please try to stick to straight whole letter grades for the sake of this exercise.
Thanks in advance for your assistance in this experiment.

http://youtu.be/-Bk5HQflDkw
Click to expand...
I didn't watch the entire video, but skipped around through different racks.
The girl is a C player, the guy is a high C low B player. That IMO would be a general average rating. In a hot bed area like NYC, both would be C players. In a smaller town without any real players, both could be B players.
If you know what you are looking at, clocking somebody's speed isn't that difficult, but a lot of people are looking for the wrong things. I would guess both of them have had lessons at some point, but they are still missing some aspects that would make me rate them any higher.
Chuck
 
David Marcus said:
Once again I need your assistance....part 3

I would like to test a theory with the help of my fellow AZers. My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be.
I would also submit that depending on where in the country or in the world that you play weighs in to your "regional ranking" system. Is an A player in Chicago the same as an A player in the South or vice versa?
Thirdly the question is whether you can accurately judge a players level simply by watching a brief sample of them playing or practicing?
I'll be very curious to hear what each of you think. Please watch the video below and post on this thread the level of player/players you think you are watching. Please try to stick to straight whole letter grades for the sake of this exercise.
Thanks in advance for your assistance in this experiment.

http://youtu.be/-Bk5HQflDkw
Click to expand...


First, I'll say that I agree with you - and go further - in that most letter (or number, for that matter) ranking systems are doomed to be subjective. It's my opinion that if any person is solely responsible for assigning a rank to a player, without the use of a standardized method for generating this ranking, it must be subjective.

In response to your question of ranking based on a brief sample of play, whether in an actual game or observing practice, I believe it'd be very difficult, if not impossible, to accurately, fairly, and consistently rank players in this manner, as there are far too many variables at play. Understandably, rankings will be updated throughout their career / season, and I think over time this type of ranking could better represent a player's ability, but it would still be subject to the interpretation of the "ranker", as well as that person's ability to recall and apply their reasoning to a player's updated rank.

With all this being said, to stick with a whole letter grade in this thread, I closely agree with Chuck and would consider them both C players. In my small college town, they may both be considered a B player.

Another way to rank these players would be to use a standardized method of generating a letter or number-based rank created on player's actual performance and game statistics. Our new app allows one to track a players progress and look at their accumulated statistics over the life of their career. By using only objective data of a player's performance, I believe one can more accurately rank a player.

Here is the strickly-objective data I gathered while watching this single game. Stats were captured on our new, Free Android app. Donn's (me) stats take the place of the gentleman's at the table.

8ball-match-erica.jpg
 
David Marcus said:
Once again I need your assistance....part 3

I would like to test a theory with the help of my fellow AZers. My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be.
I would also submit that depending on where in the country or in the world that you play weighs in to your "regional ranking" system. Is an A player in Chicago the same as an A player in the South or vice versa?
Thirdly the question is whether you can accurately judge a players level simply by watching a brief sample of them playing or practicing?
I'll be very curious to hear what each of you think. Please watch the video below and post on this thread the level of player/players you think you are watching. Please try to stick to straight whole letter grades for the sake of this exercise.
Thanks in advance for your assistance in this experiment.

http://youtu.be/-Bk5HQflDkw
Click to expand...

You cannot judge players based on 8 ball game, they have to be playing 9 or 10 ball to see how they think and position play. Back to the drawing board.
 
It is very hard to judge someones speed by watching them play 8 ball. Play some 9 or 10 ball and let us see how you do.
 
Without going into a dissertation on exactly how to clock someone's playing ability, 9 ball is but one way. And I dare to say the only way some people can, because they are judging only on how many balls per inning, or what position routes they take etc. because that's what's most familiar to them, or they never learned what else to look at.
You can watch somebody playing any game and pick up on what they know if they are actually playing and not purposely firing Hail Marys or goofing off. Execution is of course a big part of a players speed, but what they know and how they apply it is evident in pretty much any game. I can take a D player and work with him on pre shot and mechanics. At a glance you might think he executes well because his fundamentals look good. But if he doesn't understand the game or know what he is doing otherwise, his speed will become apparent quickly. Not trying to be vague, but you can clock somebody pretty close watching any game. Watching them play 9 ball only, and rating them based on that means that they are a x,y, z rated 9 ball player. You can be an A player in 9 ball and a C or B in straights or one pocket. But if you average it out, they might be a B player, because they aren't well rounded.
Chuck
 
Pool-Trax said:
Another way to rank these players would be to use a standardized method of generating a letter or number-based rank created on player's actual performance and game statistics. Our new app allows one to track a players progress and look at their accumulated statistics over the life of their career.
Click to expand...

Hi,
I have tried to download the pgrm but it is impossible because it is not compatible with my LG G2 smartphone (running on Android).
Marc
 
Chuck Fields said:
Without going into a dissertation on exactly how to clock someone's playing ability, 9 ball is but one way. And I dare to say the only way some people can, because they are judging only on how many balls per inning, or what position routes they take etc. because that's what's most familiar to them, or they never learned what else to look at.
You can watch somebody playing any game and pick up on what they know if they are actually playing and not purposely firing Hail Marys or goofing off. Execution is of course a big part of a players speed, but what they know and how they apply it is evident in pretty much any game. I can take a D player and work with him on pre shot and mechanics. At a glance you might think he executes well because his fundamentals look good. But if he doesn't understand the game or know what he is doing otherwise, his speed will become apparent quickly. Not trying to be vague, but you can clock somebody pretty close watching any game. Watching them play 9 ball only, and rating them based on that means that they are a x,y, z rated 9 ball player. You can be an A player in 9 ball and a C or B in straights or one pocket. But if you average it out, they might be a B player, because they aren't well rounded.
Chuck
Click to expand...

In pool you are judged on pocketing balls, position play and ability to complete the run. 8 ball gives so many options, it is hard to know what is the player's intended position play, and could pick up an OB that does not require english or hard shot of which he or she could have weaknesses. Therefore, 9 or 10 ball games show the true player skill.
Straight pool, a player is judged on how many balls he can run, not on how he plays; one pocket is reserved for experience in the game, a player could be a C in one pocket and beat an A level 9 ball player playing one pocket.
 
naji said:
In pool you are judged on pocketing balls, position play and ability to complete the run. 8 ball gives so many options, it is hard to know what is the player's intended position play,when you know what ball they should play for, and either they don't choose the correct pattern, or they choose right and miss position, it's not hard to figure out what's going on. Especially when they do it over and over. An added bonus is when they walk to the shot they were playing for and realize they missed position and have to change plans and could pick up an OB that does not require english or hard shot of which he or she could have weaknesses. Therefore, 9 or 10 ball games show the true player skill.
Straight pool, a player is judged on how many balls he can run, not on how he plays; You can't make big runs if you can't play well. Again, watching choices and outcomes from execution are tellingone pocket is reserved for experience in the game, a player could be a C in one pocket and beat an A level 9 ball player playing one pocketit could happen, but it won't happen repeatedly over time, the 9 baller will figure things out quickly. The C player winning won't last.
Click to expand...
Not trying to be argumentative, but IMO you haven't learned what else to pay attention to.
Chuck
 
David Marcus said:
Once again I need your assistance....part 3

I would like to test a theory with the help of my fellow AZers. My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be.
I would also submit that depending on where in the country or in the world that you play weighs in to your "regional ranking" system. Is an A player in Chicago the same as an A player in the South or vice versa?
Thirdly the question is whether you can accurately judge a players level simply by watching a brief sample of them playing or practicing?
I'll be very curious to hear what each of you think. Please watch the video below and post on this thread the level of player/players you think you are watching. Please try to stick to straight whole letter grades for the sake of this exercise.
Thanks in advance for your assistance in this experiment.

http://youtu.be/-Bk5HQflDkw
Click to expand...

Assuming ABCD
I only watched one rack but both look to be around a low C or high D players. They can make a simple shot but play almost no position. need many innings to get out a simple open table. They look like they play better then they do in my opinion. Maybe if I watched more racks I would have a different opinion but their apparent not knowing what they were doing I doubt would get better. When you shoot one ball and then don't have a second shot there is no where to go from there. I just realized you didn't give D as a option, so I would have to change to a high C. They can play a little and are not complete beginners.
 
Last edited:
cramh said:
Hi,
I have tried to download the pgrm but it is impossible because it is not compatible with my LG G2 smartphone (running on Android).
Marc
Click to expand...

Thanks for letting me know. This is actually the 2nd device (S III was another) I've heard of since yesterday with Jelly Bean that's listing as incompatible. I'll be looking into this today and (hopefully) uploading an updated version to the Google Play store that will run on your G2. Please feel free to message me directly if you have any questions, so this thread can stay on topic.

Thanks again for notifying!
 
Chuck Fields said:
Not trying to be argumentative, but IMO you haven't learned what else to pay attention to.
Chuck
Click to expand...

So at 3:35 into the video....was he trying to draw the cue ball back to play the 2 in the corner or slide the cue ball to play it in the side? I would assume he was trying to draw it back, but only he could tell us. What do you think he was trying to do?
 
Chuck Fields said:
I didn't watch the entire video, but skipped around through different racks.
The girl is a C player, the guy is a high C low B player. That IMO would be a general average rating. In a hot bed area like NYC, both would be C players. In a smaller town without any real players, both could be B players.
If you know what you are looking at, clocking somebody's speed isn't that difficult, but a lot of people are looking for the wrong things. I would guess both of them have had lessons at some point, but they are still missing some aspects that would make me rate them any higher.
Chuck
Click to expand...

Yeah, I would say the highest I'd rank either is C. I'm not fond of their patterns, their selection of spin nor do I think their pocketing is terribly good. It's clear they both take the game seriously and I think they're both capable of improving in a relatively short time but right now, they simply fall out of position a little too much and miss routine shots.
 
David Marcus said:
Once again I need your assistance....part 3

I would like to test a theory with the help of my fellow AZers. My theory is based on the premise that ranking a player as an A,B or C is at the very best subjective depending on where your own playing level is and just as importantly how you "perceive" your own playing level to be.
Click to expand...

This can be a good test for ranking player levels IMHO.... http://sites.google.com/site/poolandbilliard/Home/1-2-3
I don't think 8 ball for ranking skill levels is the answer.
 
Last edited:
eddie0776 said:
So at 3:35 into the video....was he trying to draw the cue ball back to play the 2 in the corner or slide the cue ball to play it in the side? I would assume he was trying to draw it back, but only he could tell us. What do you think he was trying to do?
Click to expand...

If any decent player took that line, I'd assume they were playing to get on the ball into the center pocket, which is a reasonable shot, but he ducked or just hit very badly the shot into the center, which was an 80% shot for a good potter. He missed it by 5 inches, which makes me think he played safe. That marks him as C level for me.

Though at times he pots and positions well.

Is this the same guy that has been in every video of this test?
 
eddie0776 said:
So at 3:35 into the video....was he trying to draw the cue ball back to play the 2 in the corner or slide the cue ball to play it in the side? I would assume he was trying to draw it back, but only he could tell us. What do you think he was trying to do?
Click to expand...

I think he was trying to draw to the rail and play the 2 in the lower right corner. From the angle, he should have either killed the cue ball and play the 2 in the lower left corner. Or if the angle is too severe to hold the cb, follow to the end rail and out for the 3 in the upper right or even the 2 in the lower left if he lands good. He was underwater and running out of oxygen in the run.
Chuck


Sent from my iPhone
Any spelling errors I'm blaming on autocorrect :)
 
Chuck Fields said:
I think he was trying to draw to the rail and play the 2 in the lower right corner. From the angle, he should have either killed the cue ball and play the 2 in the lower left corner. Or if the angle is too severe to hold the cb, follow to the end rail and out for the 3 in the upper right or even the 2 in the lower left if he lands good. He was underwater and running out of oxygen in the run.
Chuck


Sent from my iPhone
Any spelling errors I'm blaming on autocorrect :)
Click to expand...
That draw shot was easily on, but he hit center CB with a touch of OE. If that was his plan, then he's delegated to C for sure. Maybe he sucks at draw shots.
 
I think it is the same guy in all of the videos. I don't care for 8 ball, so its harder to judge for me due to lack of interest in the game. (Even though I play in a BCA 8 ball league because we don't have a 9 ball league)
 
Colin Colenso said:
That draw shot was easily on, but he hit center CB with a touch of OE. If that was his plan, then he's delegated to C for sure. Maybe he sucks at draw shots.
Click to expand...

Exactly. It wasn't that just didnt hit it good, he chose a shot that was risky given his ability. He's trying to do stuff that is out of his reach at times.
Btw. Welcome back Colin!
Chuck


Sent from my iPhone
Any spelling errors I'm blaming on autocorrect :)
 
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