Pool Ability Test

J

JoeW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Pool Ability web site is ready for review and comment.

http://www.sunburstselect.com/PBReview/index.htm

For those who do not know about it. I am constructing a test of pool playing ability that can be used for several purposes such as:
Assess skill relative to league and professional players.
Determine areas of weakness.
Assess improvement over time.
Evaluate potential equipment.
Evaluate changes in one?s approach.
Create handicaps for various games and equipment.
Evaluate instructional programs with pre - post testing over a period of time.

Currently I am not collecting data but would like to get comments on the test and on the web site. The instrument is in a preliminary (draft) phase. Based on feedback from various groups it may be modified between now and February 1st. By then the final version will be ready for data collection from anyone willing to contribute.

I am seeking well qualified research collaborators (trained in the sciences).

I am also seeking collaborators who would be interested in administering the instrument to various groups of players to help with the creation of normative data.

I am also seeking individuals who are willing to complete the instrument, data collection forms and submit the results to the web site on one or more testing sessions. To create a professional test it would be best to have people complete the instrument twice on one table and perhaps on different size tables. Submitting one assessment on one table is also of much use. It is estimated that it will take about 30 minutes to complete the test.

Please stop by the site and review the materials comments can be submitted by email to pbreview01 at yahoo.com or they can be posted here if the moderators do not mind.

My Ph.D. is in psychology with a specialty in psychometrics and the instrument will be
a professional quality test that will be made freely available to users. Details concerning how the test is administered, privacy concerns and related issues are presented on the site.

Thanks to everyone who has already indicated an interest in the development of the Pool Ability Instrument.
 
Last edited:
CS contract work available

If you need someone to write the programs that manipulate the data from user-friendly to spreadsheet/database friendly formats and/or create log files (or generate statistics) from internet form submissions...I'm available. I'd give you a deal. ;)
 
This is a topic that I've been interested in for quite awhile...

I have alot of familiarity with the various aspects involved, different leagues or rating system (strengths and weaknesses)...

I've also got a Computer Science / Math background
So, if I could be of any assistance...
 
Kimmo said:
just see you don't run into trouble with your naming convention.

See: http://www.pat-billiard.com/

cheers,
Kimmo
Click to expand...

Thank you, I have never heard of P.A.T. until your post. I went to the link but everything is in German. Could you tell me more about it and perhaps refer me to another link. A google search turns up nothing. I have no need or desire to be in conflict with WPA. If they have already created such an instrument that is technically sound I will back off from the work I have done and was anticipating.

Yes I did present the possibility of this type of test a few months ago and there was some support for the test. However when the discussion became inflamatory I backed off. Now it is nearly ready and I am looking for comments.

Thanks Flickit for the offer. While I have written commercial software, I quit about 10 years ago. So I am not up to speed in some areas. I am going to have to read up on my SQL data base to create the data collection storage procedures. Help would be apreciated. My intent is to use SPSS for item analysis and other multivariate procedures. I will contact you.
 
Last edited:
JoeW said:
Thank you, I have never heard of P.A.T. until your post. I went to the link but nothing seems to work. Could you tell me more about it and perhaps refer me to a working link. I have no need or desire to be in conflict with WPA. If they have already created such an instrument that is technically sound I will back off from the work I have done and was anticipating.

Yes I did present the possibility of this type of test a few months ago and here was some support for the test. However when the discussion became inflamatory I backed off.
Click to expand...

http://www.pat-billiard.com/index1.aspx

I just glazed over the website, it seems like it is more compareable to the Hopkins Que challenge then to your idea.
 
Last edited:
Thank you Kimmo:
I just read the English Version of the P.A.T. instructional and testing system on the site you referenced. It appears the PAT is comprehensive and well supported in some European countries. Apparently some USA instructors have attended workshops on this system which will eventually become the dominant instructional and testing system. I guess that we will hear more from the instructors on this topic.

To be quite honest, I am floored. I did not know that PAT exists. Obviously PA would need a different name now that I am aware of PAT. In addition, PA may be nothing more than a modest attempt to re-invent the wheel compared to the PAT system. PA will require a substantial amount of work and much cooperation from many participants.

PA would be free, and easy for anyone to complete for a relatively quick assessment of their skills. The PAT system is comprehensive, instructional, and of course recognized by the WPA. Apparently it is costly but I have no idea how costly -- Do you?

Apparently one could use their PAT scores to create match ups and or handicaps in a tournament. Is that correct?
 
Last edited:
From my understanding, PAT is European based, and they've made some in-roads to popularize it over in there nearby countries. I believe there are even a few pros who have gone through their system.

Overall, I don't think they've been able to establish much if anything here in the U.S. Don't know if they haven't tried, or if they tried and just weren't successful...
 
Either PA or PAT seems like too much work for me. I think Joe Tucker's drills in "Guaranteed Improvement" do a pretty good job of accessing skill levels in pool, but you may be looking for something different from that.

BTW, That is a pretty cool portable score keeper for 14.1 in the "Store".
 
I have been using the PAT drills for about a year now and have seen marked improvement in my game. These drills are excellent for whatever game you play. PAT 3 will challenge any pro out there! You can get the workbooks from bebob publishing.
 
Thanks bigdogbret I went to bebob publishing

http://www.bebobpublishing.com/

It is a nice site with some good stuff I found that:

Ralph Eckert, Jorgen Sandman, and Andreas Huber. ,The Pool Billiard Workout: Levels 1,2,3 costs $85

I also found

Bob Henning . The Pro Book, The Advanced Pro Book, and The Pro Book DVD Series for $199 and save $35!

Does anyone have these materials and if so were they useful?

I think I will buy Eckert?s materials to learn how they fit with PA.
 
Last edited:
P.A.T. is not instruction

Not likely. The P.A.T. does not address any issues dealing with stroke fundamentals or mechanics. Neither does it deal with any type of strategy play, regarding application for game play. It is not an 'instructional system', but merely a "test" to see if you can shoot certain shots, with any degree of consistency and accuracy. INO, it doesn't deal with the why's, when's, or where's...just the "can you shoot this". Admittedly, you will need a good stroke to achieve P.A.T. Level 3 certification. I agree, it is more relative to Hopkins' Q-Skill Test.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

JoeW said:
the P.A.T. instructional and testing system... which will eventually become the dominant instructional and testing system.QUOTE]
Click to expand...
 
JoeW said:
Thanks bigdogbret I went to bebob publishing

http://www.bebobpublishing.com/

It is a nice site with some good stuff I found that:

Ralph Eckert, Jorgen Sandman, and Andreas Huber. ,The Pool Billiard Workout: Levels 1,2,3 costs $85

I also found

Bob Henning . The Pro Book, The Advanced Pro Book, and The Pro Book DVD Series for $199 and save $35!

Does anyone have these materials and if so were they useful?

I think I will buy Eckert?s materials to learn how they fit with PA.
Click to expand...


i found even better special offers on ebay. search for the seller lithoshop.eu and check their auctions. they?ve got the whole range of the PAT-system and really fantastic bundles! bought their super bundle myself and can highly recommend it. fast shipping and very helpful and friendly people there! their super bundle has got everything you need - the three books (level 1, 2, 3) AND the 3 DVD?s for $159,-- ! great stuff!
 
JoeW said:
Thank you Kimmo:
I just read the English Version of the P.A.T. instructional and testing system on the site you referenced. It appears the PAT is comprehensive and well supported in some European countries. Apparently some USA instructors have attended workshops on this system which will eventually become the dominant instructional and testing system. I guess that we will hear more from the instructors on this topic.

To be quite honest, I am floored. I did not know that PAT exists. Obviously PA would need a different name now that I am aware of PAT. In addition, PA may be nothing more than a modest attempt to re-invent the wheel compared to the PAT system. PA will require a substantial amount of work and much cooperation from many participants.

PA would be free, and easy for anyone to complete for a relatively quick assessment of their skills. The PAT system is comprehensive, instructional, and of course recognized by the WPA. Apparently it is costly but I have no idea how costly -- Do you?

Apparently one could use their PAT scores to create match ups and or handicaps in a tournament. Is that correct?
Click to expand...


sorry, can?t answer your first question but found a page, where you can download a free trial of the PAT-system. see www.billiardliterature.com and have a look into the books to see how the system is built up. that?s what i did after i bought "modern pool" from ralph eckert on www.lithoshop.eu

as far as i know it is possible to play tournaments using the handicaps you reached by playing the PAT-system, but no one ever organized such an event. why don't you?

if you need more information or a list with all the US PAT-trainers who have the authority to test you, i recommend to ask john lewis of the ACS. he or his office will help you further.
 
I am also practising on the PAT-drills, and they are a good tool to improve your game. But Scott Lee is correct about PAT not being anything more than drills and tests. To improve your game, you also need coaching etc.

Top players recommending PAT are for example Thorsten Hohmann and Jasmin Ouschan. Both of them recommended people to try PAT. (Live-chat interview with them here at AZB)

PAT 3 is a killer-test. Here are the ranking for PAT 3: http://www.pat-billiard.com/PATRanking.aspx
 
Roy Steffensen said:
I am also practising on the PAT-drills, and they are a good tool to improve your game. But Scott Lee is correct about PAT not being anything more than drills and tests. To improve your game, you also need coaching etc.

Top players recommending PAT are for example Thorsten Hohmann and Jasmin Ouschan. Both of them recommended people to try PAT. (Live-chat interview with them here at AZB)

PAT 3 is a killer-test. Here are the ranking for PAT 3: http://www.pat-billiard.com/PATRanking.aspx
Click to expand...


Roy,

How does JoeW's test compare with the PAT tests? Would his test be comparable to PAT1?

I have not seen the PAT tests, and I will have to order them to see....I guess.

I plan to try out JoeW's test. I will probably do 4 sets of data. The first 2 sets will be shooting right handed, then left handed.....since I am ambiodextrous. And then the other sets a week later.
Or I may ended up doing 8 sets. Right and left handed with the right handed set up, and right and left handed with the left hand set up.

I am curious how my right handed play vs my left handed play compare to each other. As it seems, sometimes I shoot better left handed than right handed, and vice-versa. Maybe that would be good quick fix for me...if I am in a slump right handed, switch to the left hand....then work on the right handed slump during practice time. I tend to use a closed bridge more often when playing right handed, and an open bridge when playing left handed.

I will probably wait to try the tests until after the APA regional singles for 8 ball in March.
 
I'm not familiar with P.A.T testing. I just read Joes plan and its a very basic start to help people to quantify their skills(putting a numerical on how good they play), In the description of the parameters of the test he said the test must be easy enough for beginners to score and hard enough for pros not to get a perfect score to have accurate data-which is 100% correct for any test to have all the results fall in the middle somewhere, with the proposed test I just dont see the beginners getting on the board, like me in a spelling bee, I'd never get a word right.

the other concern is the difference in equipment, there are lot more conditions to worry about on a tight 9' table than a bar bax with big pockets, the obvious one is making the ball, or on the positional play test comming around the table is more work, also th size of the target as a % of the size of the slate bed of the table is alot less on a 9' table. the target HAS to be modifyed to fit the approiate table, a 8.5"X11" target is fine on a 9' table and easy on a 7' table, I dont know how to compensate for pocket sizes on tables, but the target size is simple math. To not take into consideration the differences of equipment this test or any tests are useless, go take this test on a 12' snooker table then a barbox and see the difference, the target size alone on the barbox is about 3 times bigger using the same size target.


Scott is right, this wont help you become a better player, coaching, fundementals, action, tournments, paying your dues is the way to improve not getting a score from a test. Tests are just what they, are a tool to measure your ability at a given point in time. There is nothing wrong with taking this test at predetermined intervals to check your progress but it isnt a solution for anything just answeres, and that does serve a purpose, so does winning a tournment or out running the nuts.

i hope this all works out. just my 3 cents
 
Now ya gotta have a Friggin PHD???

Fatboy said:
I'm not familiar with P.A.T testing. I just read Joes plan and its a very basic start to help people to quantify their skills(putting a numerical on how good they play), In the description of the parameters of the test he said the test must be easy enough for beginners to score and hard enough for pros not to get a perfect score to have accurate data-which is 100% correct for any test to have all the results fall in the middle somewhere, with the proposed test I just dont see the beginners getting on the board, like me in a spelling bee, I'd never get a word right.

the other concern is the difference in equipment, there are lot more conditions to worry about on a tight 9' table than a bar bax with big pockets, the obvious one is making the ball, or on the positional play test comming around the table is more work, also th size of the target as a % of the size of the slate bed of the table is alot less on a 9' table. the target HAS to be modifyed to fit the approiate table, a 8.5"X11" target is fine on a 9' table and easy on a 7' table, I dont know how to compensate for pocket sizes on tables, but the target size is simple math. To not take into consideration the differences of equipment this test or any tests are useless, go take this test on a 12' snooker table then a barbox and see the difference, the target size alone on the barbox is about 3 times bigger using the same size target.


Scott is right, this wont help you become a better player, coaching, fundementals, action, tournments, paying your dues is the way to improve not getting a score from a test. Tests are just what they, are a tool to measure your ability at a given point in time. There is nothing wrong with taking this test at predetermined intervals to check your progress but it isnt a solution for anything just answeres, and that does serve a purpose, so does winning a tournment or out running the nuts.

i hope this all works out. just my 3 cents
Click to expand...

Good grief...... science...??? Fiction..... Man, do you think Willie had a PHD to shoot pool.......??? Man, science cannot quantifiy everthing....even tho they try....

I agree with Fatboy. A test is only a test and there are about 2 trillion variables........... Judas!! Let's all just shoot pool and may the most skilled player win for crap sake...... Whew... Ok, I'm done now....:D :D
 
okinawa77 said:
Roy,

How does JoeW's test compare with the PAT tests? Would his test be comparable to PAT1?

I have not seen the PAT tests, and I will have to order them to see....I guess.

I plan to try out JoeW's test. I will probably do 4 sets of data. The first 2 sets will be shooting right handed, then left handed.....since I am ambiodextrous. And then the other sets a week later.
Or I may ended up doing 8 sets. Right and left handed with the right handed set up, and right and left handed with the left hand set up.

I am curious how my right handed play vs my left handed play compare to each other. As it seems, sometimes I shoot better left handed than right handed, and vice-versa. Maybe that would be good quick fix for me...if I am in a slump right handed, switch to the left hand....then work on the right handed slump during practice time. I tend to use a closed bridge more often when playing right handed, and an open bridge when playing left handed.

I will probably wait to try the tests until after the APA regional singles for 8 ball in March.
Click to expand...


hi okinawa 77!

have a look on www.billiardliterature.com first before buying the PAT-workout system. download a 3-days-trial and check if this is the right thing for you. if you want to order, have a look at the bottom of that page, there is a link of a very good shop (www.lithoshop.eu)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top